Sir Richard Hansard - Chronology

[John Watson]

Dear all,

I recently came across the bio of Sir Richard Hansard of Walworth,
Durham and South Kelsey, Lincolnshire on the History of Parliament
website:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/hansard-sir-richard-1428

This states that Richard was the son of another Sir Richard: "s. and
h. of Sir Richard Hansard (c.1377-c.1410) of Walworth and South Kelsey
by his w. Joan, da. of John Aske (d.1397) of Ousethorpe, Yorks. m.
Joan (d. aft. 1435), poss. da. of Sir John Hedworth, 5s. 4da. Kntd. by
Aug. 1402."

How on earth does someone whose father was born in 1377, become a
knight in 1402? He can't have been more than 5 years old at the time.

Did Robert Surtees (Hist. Durham, iii, 318) create two Richard
Hansards, when there was only one?

Regards,

John

Note. I only count three Richard Hansards here: one born in 1377 who
died in 1466, one who died in or after 1457 and one born about 1457.
There are no other Durham Hansard ipms between these two.

29 April 1395, Darlington, Inquisition post mortem for Durham of
Robert Hansard. Richard, aged 18, is his son and next heir. The manor
of Walworth
45th Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (London:
1885) p. 215

14 April 1466, Durham. Inquisition post mortem for Durham of Richard
Haunserd. Richard, aged 9, is his grandson and heir, viz., the son of
Richard son of the said Richard Haunserd. The manor and vill of
Walworth.
44th Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (London:
1883) p. 412

[Matt Tompkins]

On Jan 25, 3:12 pm, John Watson <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I recently came across the bio of Sir Richard Hansard of Walworth,
> Durham and South Kelsey, Lincolnshire on the History of Parliament

> website:http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/hans...

>
> This states that Richard was the son of another Sir Richard: "s. and
> h. of Sir Richard Hansard (c.1377-c.1410) of Walworth and South Kelsey
> by his w. Joan, da. of John Aske (d.1397) of Ousethorpe, Yorks. m.
> Joan (d. aft. 1435), poss. da. of Sir John Hedworth, 5s. 4da. Kntd. by
> Aug. 1402."
>
> How on earth does someone whose father was born in 1377, become  a
> knight in 1402? He can't have been more than 5 years old at the time.

I'm pretty sure those two dates (c.1377 and c.1410) are not meant to
be birth and death dates - just the dates of the earliest and last
known references to the individual (the Method statement on page xiii
of the Introduction to the print volume seems to say as much).

Matt Tompkins

[Wjhonson]

Richard born about 1377 they seem to refer to a will dated in 1410? (Test.Ebor ?)
Would it not be this Richard who was knighted *by* 1402 ?

Then his son from HOP, who died in 1428 leaving a widow

Full Stop


*A* Richard died between 1456 and 1466 leaving a son Richard

This last Richard was "aged 9" and heir of his grandfather Richard

Full Stop

Reconciling these two separate sets of claims is not trivial. We need more information from somewhere.

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[John Watson]

Hi Matt,

The birth date of 1377 for the first Sir Richard Hansard appears to
have come from the Durham ipm for his father, Sir Robert Hansard:

29 April 1395, Darlington, Inquisition post mortem for Durham of
Robert Hansard. Richard, aged 18, is his son and next heir. The manor

of Walworth.

45th Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (London:
1885) p. 215

This Sir Robert Hansard actually died early in 1391. His will is dated
26 January 1390/1 and was proved at York on 14 February 1390/1 (Test.
Ebor., i, 132). The same will was proved in Lincolnshire on 29 July
1391 (Gibbons, Early Lincoln Wills, 49).

According to Surtees' pedigree of Hansard (Hist. Durham, iii, 318)
available online here:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/image.aspx?compid=76362&filename=fig108.gif&pubid=456
"Sir Richard Hansard, Knt, aet 18 7 Skirlaw, 1395 = Joane, dau. of ...
Aske, enfeoffed with her husband 5 Feb. 3 Skirlaw."

The first Sir Richard Hansard and Joan Aske were enfeoffed by the
bishop of Durham on 5 February '3 Skirlaw', which would be 5 February
1391, i.e. just after the death of his father. Joan was still alive in
April 1440, when she was a beneficiary in the will of her sister Alice
"Johannae Hawnserd, sorori meae" (Test. Ebor. ii, 76). To me this
points to Joan being born about the same time as her husband, i.e. in
the late 1370's. Which is why it seems impossible for them to have a
son who was knighted before 1402.

It appears (to me at least) that the HOP bio confuses father and son,
and the man who was knighted in 1402 and was subsequently MP was the
first Sir Richard Hansard and not his son. The biography does not
actually give a date of death for the first Sir Richard, and none of
the sources referenced that I am able to access gives any clear
evidence, e.g.:
1412, Liberty of Howdenshire, Sir Richard Haunsard, knight, has lands,
etc. to the value of 20 pounds
Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids, Vol. 6, p. 543

1428, Lincolnshire, Richard Haunserde, knight, holds in South Kelsey,
Thornton and Besthorpe, 2 carucates and 4 bovates of land excepting 9
bovates, where 4 carucates make 1 knight's fee, formerly of Robert son
of Gilbert Haunserde of the fee of the honor of Lancaster
Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids, Vol. 3, p. 269

All a bit of a puzzle.

Regards,

John

[John Watson]

> available online here:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/image.aspx?compid=76362&filename=fig...

And there's something else skewed about this chronology:

1428, Lincolnshire, Richard Haunserde, knight holds in South Kelsey,

Thornton and Besthorpe, 2 carucates and 4 bovates of land excepting 9
bovates, where 4 carucates make 1 knight's fee, formerly of Robert son
of Gilbert Haunserde of the fee of the honor of Lancaster
Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids, Vol. 3, p. 269

9 January 1432, Lincolnshire. Richard Haunsard of South Kelsey in
Lincolnshire, esquire 'armiger', is seised, etc. of lands and
tenenments in South Kelsey, not held by knight's service, which are
worth without reprises, 100s.
Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids, Vol. 3, p. 356

If Richard Hansard, esq., apparently the son of Sir Richard was
holding lands in 1432, I would assume he was at least 21 years old -
born in or before 1410. I'm having a hard time fitting in all these
generations.

Regards,

John

[Wjhonson]

RIchard I 1377-1428
Richard II 1395/1410 is the one who left the grandson aged 9

Richard III d.v.p.
Richard IV aged 9....

-----Original Message-----
From: John Watson <watso...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

[John Watson]

Hi Will,

Certainly looks more plausible than Surtee's pedigree. Further
researches ongoing.

Regards,

John

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

[John Watson]

On Jan 26, 12:58 pm, John Watson <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Will,
>
> Certainly looks more plausible than Surtee's pedigree. Further
> researches ongoing.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> On Jan 26, 9:55 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>

Hi all,

I have found some evidence which appears to show that there was only
one Sir Richard Hansard, who married Joan Aske and died on 25 November
(St. Catherine's Day) 1428.

Church Notes of Cooke, Clarencieux, taken in 1592. South Kelsey St.
Mary. "Hic jacent Dominus Ricardus Haunsard Miles et Domina Johanna
nuper uxor ejus. Who dyed in the feast of St. Katherine Anno 1428 and
she dyed anno Domini 14..." [Arms—Hansard impaling Aske.]
A. Gibbons, Notes on the Visitation of Lincolnshire 1634 (Lincoln:
1898) p. 48
http://archive.org/stream/cu31924029785635#page/n60/mode/1up

So now I have a Hansard pedigree like this:

Sir Robert Hansard = Margaret Gascoigne?
died bef. 14 Feb 1391
|
Sir Richard Hansard = Joan Aske
1377 - 25 Nov 1428 ca. 1380 - aft. Apr 1440
|
Richard Hansard esq. = Joan Hedworth?
ca. 1405 - bef Apr 1466
|
Richard Hansard esq. = Margaret de la Mare
ca. 1425 - 1460
|
Richard Hansard esq. = Elizabeth Blount
1457 - aft. 1480

That's the bare bones anyway. It appears that the third Richard died
at the battle of Wakefield in 1460, but I haven't tracked down the
evidence yet.

Regards
John

[KLBWagner]

According to Pedigrees of the Gentry in the Bishoprick of Durham and Northumberland, Thomas Beckwith, 1766, FHL film #599832:

Sr Richard Hansard m. Daughter of Sr Jno Hedworth of Harraton Knt
|
Richard Hansard m. Daughter and heir of Thos Dallaville Esqr
|
Richard Hansard in Right of his Wife he was Lord of Wyam (?) m. Daughter and Coheir of Robt Blunt


Kathleen

[TJ Booth]

On Saturday, January 26, 2013 2:30 AM, "John Watson" wrote :

<Snip>

So now I have a Hansard pedigree like this:

Sir Robert Hansard = Margaret Gascoigne?
died bef. 14 Feb 1391
|
Sir Richard Hansard = Joan Aske
1377 - 25 Nov 1428 ca. 1380 - aft. Apr 1440

<Snip>

John, Will and all:

There are two different Hansard lines, one of Walworth Durham and one of
South Kelsey. That one generation of Richard Hansards had wives named Joan
(Aske, Hedworth) may be the source of much confusion and flawed pedigrees.

The previously noted will for Robert Hansard Chivaler 'of Walworth Durham'
who d. bef 14 Feb 1390/91 [books.google.com/books?id=x_VVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA132]
lists his children as :
Item lego Gilberto filio meo xx marcas sterl.
Et Roberto filio meo xx marc. sterl.
Et Johannae filia e mea e quater viginti marcas sterl. ad maritagium
suum.
Item lego Margaretae filia e mea e centum solidos sterl.
Et Johanni filio meo xx marcas.
Et Willielmo filio meo xx marcas.
Et Marjoria e filia e mea e xx marcas

No Richard m. Aske, who didn't die until 1428 per your posts. Nor is the
name of Robert Hansard's wife noted. There is a reasonable pedigree for
Hansard of Walworth Durham (also has Hedworth) in Hutchinson, History and
Antiquities of the County Palatine of Durham Vol 3 page xxiv [
books.google.com/books?id=tJAxAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PR24 ] This suggests that Sir
Robert m. Margaret Gascoigne was the son of Sir Robert of the will - I have
Margaret as sister of the chief justice based on chronology. Also note that
the Richard m. Joan Aske is not shown.

The Visitation of the North pedigree for Aske of Ousthorpe [page 96,
visitation in Surtees Vol 144 @
www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern/surtees144text.pdf ] is quite early, which
I date to 1480 based on the people identified There is a rather good list of
Joan Aske's siblings, including brother John who m. Elizabeth dau of chief
justice William Gascoigne [this chronology works, my notes suggest she was
by first wife Elizabeth Mowbray], and seems a more reliable presentation of
the Aske family than later pedigrees. It states that 'Johanna nupta Ricardo
Hansard de Comitatu Lincoln' which is a bit of a way from Walworth Durham.
He is not shown as a knight. Joan's husband was a Hansard of South Kelsey -
do not know where they connect with Durham.

Hansard was in South Kelsey for many years. 1303 Feudal aides for
Lincolnshire, [books.google.com/books?id=3eArAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA138 ] shows South
Kelsey was held by Gilbert that earlier was held by John ("De Roberto
Haunsard tenente j. f. in South Kelsey, quod Johannes Haunsard quondam
tenuit."). In 1346 it was held by Robert son of Gilbert [page 214]:
("Robertus filius Gilberti Haunsard tenet j. f. in South Kellbsay, quod
Robertus Haunsard quondam tenuit"). The same page has Gilbert's wife as Lora
Asterby "Lora, que fuit uxor Gilberti Haunsard, tenet vj. partem j. f. in
Thornton, quam Rogerus de Asterby quondam tenuit." Richard Hansard held them
in 1431 [page 356] "Ricardus Haunsard de South Kelsay in comitatu
Lincolnie, armiger, fuit seisitus etc. de terris et tenementis in South
Kelsay et Thornton, que tenentur per medietatem un. f. m. His father,
Richard d. 1428, of South Kelsey was sheriff in 1419.

>From ARCHDEACON'S VISITATION, 1448. South KelseY. Richard Hansard senior,
Richard Hansard junr., Henry Hansard, Wm. Hansard, and several others, all
of South Kelsey, presented for violence in S. Kelsey Church even to
bloodshed, on 13 Dec. 1448. And Henry Hansard for laying violent hands on
Wm. Workworth priest at Brantingham, "qui manet in Hull."
The related record notes "Hic jacent Dominus Ricardus Haunsard Miles et
Domina Johanna nuperuxor ejus. Who dyed in the feast of St. Katherine A�
1428 and she dyed a� Domini 14... . His wife is surely Joan Aske, but I
question if his son is the one who m. Joan Hedworth - that is a flawed
identification. There are also arms of Hansard impaling Aske (can't recall
where - here?).

The question of this couple's descendants are found in Maddison's
Lincolnshire pedigree for Hansard of South Kelsey, which starts with Sir
Richard d. 1428 bur in South Kelsey church with wife Joan. The pedigree
misidentifies her as Joan Hedworth, when she ought to be identified as Joan
Aske. [books.google.com/books?id=raNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA455] . The pedigree shows
their grandson Richard [not knight] age 9 in 1467 as the husband of
Elizabeth Blount dau of Thomas Blount of Girsby by Agnes dau [and heir] of
Sir John Hawley of Utterby. Elizabeth's sister was Anne Blount who m.
William Marbury who had immigrant descendants - Blount was a descendant of
Sancha de Ayala.

Terry Booth
Chicago IL

[John Watson]

> visitation in Surtees Vol 144 @www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern/surtees144text.pdf] is quite early, which

Terry,

The family of Hansard of South Kelsey Lincolnshire and Hansard of
Walworth, Durham are the same family. See my next post.

Regards,

John

[Keith Corbett]