Origin of the Meneses family in Portugal and Spain
Francisco Antonio Doria
Braancamp Freire, usually very careful and critical, derives the Meneses male line from Fruela II (_Brasões da Sala de Sintra_, I), and gives Salazar Y Castro as the reference. (Well, his discussion begins with Telo Peres de Meneses in the 12th century.)
It seems to me that the first secure ancestor is in the preceding generation, Pero Bernardes, said of Sahagun, `as he was born in the monastery of Sahagun.' S y C gives his father as count Bernardo Dias das Asturias, himself the son of Diogo Rodrigues, dux of the Asturias.
I don't believe this line, frankly. Anyway, since the Meneses's sudden appearance in history show that they are already very powerful and well connected - Pero Bernardes is supposed to have married a Maya lady - they should have an exalted origin. I have then conjectured that Pero Bernardes `of Sahagun' was in fact the bastard son of Bernard de Sauvetat, abbot of Sahagun and later archbishop of Toledo.
Todd, any comments?
Chico Doria
Francisco Antonio Doria
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Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Braancamp Freire, usually very careful and critical, derives
> the Meneses male line from Fruela II (_Brasões da Sala de
> Sintra_, I), and gives Salazar Y Castro as the reference.
> (Well, his discussion begins with Telo Peres de Meneses in
> the 12th century.)
Thanks for pointing this out. In looking it in S y C I found something
else of interest to a current project on the same chart.
> It seems to me that the first secure ancestor is in the
> preceding generation, Pero Bernardes, said of Sahagun,
> `as he was born in the monastery of Sahagun.' S y C gives
> his father as count Bernardo Dias das Asturias, himself
> the son of Diogo Rodrigues, dux of the Asturias.
>
> I don't believe this line, frankly. Anyway, since the
> Meneses's sudden appearance in history show that they
> are already very powerful and well connected - Pero
> Bernardes is supposed to have married a Maya lady -
> they should have an exalted origin. I have then
> conjectured that Pero Bernardes `of Sahagun' was in
> fact the bastard son of Bernard de Sauvetat, abbot of
> Sahagun and later archbishop of Toledo.
Gonzalez has suggested a different solution to the problem (in this he
was follwed by Martinez Sopena). He states that Tello Perez was son of
Pedro Martinez de Tordesilla, and that the latter was son of Martin
Perez de Tordesilla by Mayor Perez, the daughter of Pedro Ansurez.
Unfortunately, he provides none of his reasoning nor any footnote for
the proposed paternity of Tello Perez, so it is difficult to evaluate.
Gonzalez, Julio. El Reino de Castilla en la epoca de Alfonso VIII.
(1960).
Martinez Sopena, Pascual. La Tierra de Campos Occidental: Poblamiento,
Poder y Comunidad del Siglo X al XIII. (1985).
Salazar y Castro, Luis de. Indice de las Glorias de la Casa Farnese, o
Resumen de las Heroycas Acciones de sus Principes, que Consagra a la
Augusta Reyna de las Espanas Dona Isabel Farnese. (1716).
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
Todd, in my case I just wondered about the origins of Pero Bernardes de
Sahagun, the `traditional' ancestor of the Meneses. I don't know whether
there is any contemporary reference to him - Telo Peres, for sure. As the
traditional lineage led nowhere (Fruela II is a nowhere in genealogical
terms), I just looked for the abbots of Sahagun, just in case. And found
Bernard de Sauvetat, in fact a mighty feudal overlord, the right man in
the right place at the right time.
Best, Chico Doria
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Todd, in my case I just wondered about the origins of Pero Bernardes de
> Sahagun, the `traditional' ancestor of the Meneses. I don't know whether
> there is any contemporary reference to him - Telo Peres, for sure. As the
> traditional lineage led nowhere (Fruela II is a nowhere in genealogical
> terms), I just looked for the abbots of Sahagun, just in case. And found
> Bernard de Sauvetat, in fact a mighty feudal overlord, the right man in
> the right place at the right time.
I can't help you with Pero Bernardes, nor can I determine the basis for
Gonzalez redirecting the Meneses descent. I did take a look at Salazar
y Castro, and the Fruela II line is the connection that we have
discussed here before. He traces them back to Ordono Ramirez and
Christina Vermudez. The latter is the daughter of Vermudo II by his
first wife. Ordono Ramirez is traditionally shown to be son of Ramiro
the Blind, son of Fruela II, but just last week I presented the argument
that the chronology for this is nearly impossible, and that Sanchez
Candiera is clearly right in making him son of Ramiro III. All of this
is moot though, since the Meneses do not trace here either way.
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
The obscurity of the Meneses' family origins is as surprising as their sudden ascent. They were so proud and arrogant; their coat of arms is, simply - or, a golden shield, with nothing on it. We have documented Meneses' titled grandees a couple of generations after this mysterious Pero Bernardes, and they soon intermarry with the Portuguese royal house. D. Pedro de Meneses, count of Viana left as many bastards as any royal person in the 15th century; lots of distinguished family lines are traceable to him, such as the Dias de Meneses (agnatic ancestry originates in a converted Jew, Damião Dias, who served King D. João III of Portugal and was given for wife a Meneses bastard lady) or the Moniz Barreto de Meneses, in Portugal and Brazil, also from bastard lines. Actually there are as many bastard lines, almost, from the Meneses as from the royal house.
The Meneses were so important that the duke of Caminha who was beheaded for high treason in 1641 adopted the Meneses name instead of his agnatic style Noronha (descended from the Castilian royal house). There were sayings like `to be as proud as a Meneses' and so on; many families adopted the Meneses name as a secondary name, even if they got it with several brisures in the male line (like a branch of my own, the Menezes Doria family of the - Brazilian title - baron of Loreto). So, their sudden ascent is sure very surprising.
Chico Doria