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the obscured Elizabeth was ***CP Addition: Elizabeth Calthorpe, wife of Robert Southwell, Knt., and Thomas Brooke, Knt., 8th Lord Cobham
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Leo van de Pas
Jun 27, 2013, 8:09:22 PM6/27/13
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I wonder whether Douglas Richardson realises he is opening a few interesting
(for me) genealogical doors with his message.
On Genealogics Elizabeth can be found as born in 1486 at Ingham, Norfolk,
daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe of Burnham Thorpe and Mary Say. Amongst her
ancestors are several Magna Carta Sureties, as well as King Harold II, King
Henry II, William the Lion of Scotland and Llywellyn Fawr of Wales.
Robert Southwell married first Ursula Bohun daughter of Sir John Bohun of
Midhurst. I have no record for Ursula but she has to be a daughter of Sir
John Bohun of Midhurst (died 1492) and Anne Arderne. (See The Genealogist
(New Series) Volume 28 The Bohun of Midhurst family by G.W.Watson).
Sir John is a descendant of King Henry I and Llywelyn Fawr of Wales. Sir
John's daughter Mary (Cahiers de Saint Louis page 894) married Sir Dafydd
Owen an illegitimate son of _the_ Owen Tudor.
Sir John Bohun is also an ancestor of David Cameron (PM of Great Britain),
Lady Diana Spencer, Camilla duchess of Cornwall, Sarah Ferguson and Aeneas
Simon Mackay, lord Reay. I found only one Gateway ancestor, Robert Yonge.
By connections given for Robert Southwell, I can only wonder is he a son of
Richard Southwell of Woodrising and his first wife Amy Wychingham? Richard
Southwell of Woodrising is an ancestor of Merilyn Pedrick, Lady Diana
Spencer, Camilla duchess of Cornwall, Sarah Ferguson and Aeneas Simon
Mackay, lord Reay and I could find only one Gateway for him, Norborne
Berkeley, Lord Botetourt.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013 6:51 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: ***Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Calthorpe, wife of Robert
Southwell, Knt., and Thomas Brooke, Knt., 8th Lord Cobham
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 347 (sub Cobham) includes an account of Sir
Thomas Brooke, Knt., 8th Lord Cobham (died 1529).
Sir Thomas Brooke is known to have had three marriages. Regarding his
second marriage, the following unsourced information is provided:
"He married, 2ndly, Dorothy Southwell, widow, who d.s.p." END OF QUOTE.
The online Discovery catalogue includes am abstract of a Chancery lawsuit
dated in the period, 1515-18, by which Christopher Urswyk, LL.D., and
others, executors of Robert Southwell, Knt., sued Thomas Brooke, Lord
Cobham, late the husband of Elizabeth, formerly the wife of the said Robert,
regarding the detention of deeds relating to the estate of the said Robert.
Reference: National Archives, C 1/452/8.
The above lawsuit thus establishes that Sir Thomas Brooke's second wife was
actually Elizabeth, widow of Robert Southwell, Knt.
Jones, History of St Catharine's College, Cambridge (1936): 215 includes
information regarding Sir Robert Southwell and his widow, Elizabeth. This
material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=hUP5DvScK2IC&pg=PA215
Jones states that Sir Robert Southwell bargained to sell by indenture dated
4 Nov. 1509 to Thomas Greene, Master of St. Catharine's College, and others,
all the lands, late of John Flynn's, in Coton, Barton, Whitwell,
Grantchester, and Cambridge. On 16 January 1515 Elizabeth Southwell and
William Wotton, executors of Sir Robert Southwell, conveyed to the Master
and Fellows all their right in the manor and lands, late John Flynn's, of
Coton, Barton and Whitwell.
There are two lawsuits in the Court of Common Pleas which establish that
Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham, married Elizabeth, widow of Robert Southwell,
Knt., by 1516:
1. In 1516 Thomas Lovell, Knt., sued Thomas Cobham, Knt., Lord Cobham, of
London, Elizabeth his wife, and William Wotton, Esq., co-executors of Robert
Southwell, Knt., of the King's Household in the Court of Common Pleas
regarding a debt. [Reference:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no1013/aCP40no1013fronts/IMG_1137.htm].
1. In 1516 Christopher Ursewyk, clerk, doctor of law, William Wotton, and
Thomas Broke, knight, Lord Cobham, and Elizabeth his wife, acting as
co-executors of Sir Robert Southwell, sued Thomas Collys, freemason, of
Hanworth, Norfolk, and another regarding a debt.
[Reference:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no1013/bCP40no1013dorses/IMG_0837.htm
Specific particulars regarding the maiden name and parentage of Elizabeth,
wife successively of Sir Robert Southwell and Sir Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham
are found in Eller, Memorials: Archaeological and Ecclesiastical of the West
Winch (1861): 82-83, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MKYLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82
Eller indicates that Sir Robert Southwell had two wives. He married (1st)
Ursula, daughter of Sir John Bohun, of Midhurst, upon whom he settled the
West Winch estate. Ursula died without issue.
Sir Robert Southwell then "contracted, 27th Henry VII. [sic] "a second
marriage with Elizabeth, the daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe, of Burnham
Thorpe; upon which occasion, by a deed of covenant, made between himself and
Sir Philip Calthorpe, he covenanted that the feoffees of his previous
settlement ... should suffer a recovery of the premises to bar the old
entail; and accordingly in Michaelmas term they did so by the description of
the Manor of West Winch ... and the same became vested in Sir Thomas Howard,
Knt. (afterwards Earl of Surrey), Sir Edward Howard .... as new feoffees
upon trust for the use of Elizabeth, his wife, for the term of her life,
with remainder after her decease to the use of himself and his heirs in fee
... [Sir Robert Southwell] died on the 31st March, 5th Henry 8th [1514],
leaving Richard, son of his brother, Francis, his cousin and heir, then of
10 years and a ward of the King."
Thus we see that Elizabeth, wife successively of Sir Robert Southwell and
Sir Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham, was the daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe, of
Burnham Thorpe, Norfolk. The date of the settlement given above as 27th
Henry VII is impossible, as King Henry only ruled 24 years.
Reviewing the above we find that Sir Robert Southwell died 31 March 1514,
and that his widow, Elizabeth, married (2nd) after 16 Jan. 1515 (date of
conveyance) and before 1516 (date of two lawsuits) Sir Thomas Brooke, Lord
Cobham. Elizabeth was living in 1516 (date of two lawsuits) but dead before
1518 (date of third lawsuit).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
(for me) genealogical doors with his message.
On Genealogics Elizabeth can be found as born in 1486 at Ingham, Norfolk,
daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe of Burnham Thorpe and Mary Say. Amongst her
ancestors are several Magna Carta Sureties, as well as King Harold II, King
Henry II, William the Lion of Scotland and Llywellyn Fawr of Wales.
Robert Southwell married first Ursula Bohun daughter of Sir John Bohun of
Midhurst. I have no record for Ursula but she has to be a daughter of Sir
John Bohun of Midhurst (died 1492) and Anne Arderne. (See The Genealogist
(New Series) Volume 28 The Bohun of Midhurst family by G.W.Watson).
Sir John is a descendant of King Henry I and Llywelyn Fawr of Wales. Sir
John's daughter Mary (Cahiers de Saint Louis page 894) married Sir Dafydd
Owen an illegitimate son of _the_ Owen Tudor.
Sir John Bohun is also an ancestor of David Cameron (PM of Great Britain),
Lady Diana Spencer, Camilla duchess of Cornwall, Sarah Ferguson and Aeneas
Simon Mackay, lord Reay. I found only one Gateway ancestor, Robert Yonge.
By connections given for Robert Southwell, I can only wonder is he a son of
Richard Southwell of Woodrising and his first wife Amy Wychingham? Richard
Southwell of Woodrising is an ancestor of Merilyn Pedrick, Lady Diana
Spencer, Camilla duchess of Cornwall, Sarah Ferguson and Aeneas Simon
Mackay, lord Reay and I could find only one Gateway for him, Norborne
Berkeley, Lord Botetourt.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013 6:51 AM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: ***Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Calthorpe, wife of Robert
Southwell, Knt., and Thomas Brooke, Knt., 8th Lord Cobham
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 347 (sub Cobham) includes an account of Sir
Thomas Brooke, Knt., 8th Lord Cobham (died 1529).
Sir Thomas Brooke is known to have had three marriages. Regarding his
second marriage, the following unsourced information is provided:
"He married, 2ndly, Dorothy Southwell, widow, who d.s.p." END OF QUOTE.
The online Discovery catalogue includes am abstract of a Chancery lawsuit
dated in the period, 1515-18, by which Christopher Urswyk, LL.D., and
others, executors of Robert Southwell, Knt., sued Thomas Brooke, Lord
Cobham, late the husband of Elizabeth, formerly the wife of the said Robert,
regarding the detention of deeds relating to the estate of the said Robert.
Reference: National Archives, C 1/452/8.
The above lawsuit thus establishes that Sir Thomas Brooke's second wife was
actually Elizabeth, widow of Robert Southwell, Knt.
Jones, History of St Catharine's College, Cambridge (1936): 215 includes
information regarding Sir Robert Southwell and his widow, Elizabeth. This
material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=hUP5DvScK2IC&pg=PA215
Jones states that Sir Robert Southwell bargained to sell by indenture dated
4 Nov. 1509 to Thomas Greene, Master of St. Catharine's College, and others,
all the lands, late of John Flynn's, in Coton, Barton, Whitwell,
Grantchester, and Cambridge. On 16 January 1515 Elizabeth Southwell and
William Wotton, executors of Sir Robert Southwell, conveyed to the Master
and Fellows all their right in the manor and lands, late John Flynn's, of
Coton, Barton and Whitwell.
There are two lawsuits in the Court of Common Pleas which establish that
Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham, married Elizabeth, widow of Robert Southwell,
Knt., by 1516:
1. In 1516 Thomas Lovell, Knt., sued Thomas Cobham, Knt., Lord Cobham, of
London, Elizabeth his wife, and William Wotton, Esq., co-executors of Robert
Southwell, Knt., of the King's Household in the Court of Common Pleas
regarding a debt. [Reference:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no1013/aCP40no1013fronts/IMG_1137.htm].
1. In 1516 Christopher Ursewyk, clerk, doctor of law, William Wotton, and
Thomas Broke, knight, Lord Cobham, and Elizabeth his wife, acting as
co-executors of Sir Robert Southwell, sued Thomas Collys, freemason, of
Hanworth, Norfolk, and another regarding a debt.
[Reference:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no1013/bCP40no1013dorses/IMG_0837.htm
Specific particulars regarding the maiden name and parentage of Elizabeth,
wife successively of Sir Robert Southwell and Sir Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham
are found in Eller, Memorials: Archaeological and Ecclesiastical of the West
Winch (1861): 82-83, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MKYLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82
Eller indicates that Sir Robert Southwell had two wives. He married (1st)
Ursula, daughter of Sir John Bohun, of Midhurst, upon whom he settled the
West Winch estate. Ursula died without issue.
Sir Robert Southwell then "contracted, 27th Henry VII. [sic] "a second
marriage with Elizabeth, the daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe, of Burnham
Thorpe; upon which occasion, by a deed of covenant, made between himself and
Sir Philip Calthorpe, he covenanted that the feoffees of his previous
settlement ... should suffer a recovery of the premises to bar the old
entail; and accordingly in Michaelmas term they did so by the description of
the Manor of West Winch ... and the same became vested in Sir Thomas Howard,
Knt. (afterwards Earl of Surrey), Sir Edward Howard .... as new feoffees
upon trust for the use of Elizabeth, his wife, for the term of her life,
with remainder after her decease to the use of himself and his heirs in fee
... [Sir Robert Southwell] died on the 31st March, 5th Henry 8th [1514],
leaving Richard, son of his brother, Francis, his cousin and heir, then of
10 years and a ward of the King."
Thus we see that Elizabeth, wife successively of Sir Robert Southwell and
Sir Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham, was the daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe, of
Burnham Thorpe, Norfolk. The date of the settlement given above as 27th
Henry VII is impossible, as King Henry only ruled 24 years.
Reviewing the above we find that Sir Robert Southwell died 31 March 1514,
and that his widow, Elizabeth, married (2nd) after 16 Jan. 1515 (date of
conveyance) and before 1516 (date of two lawsuits) Sir Thomas Brooke, Lord
Cobham. Elizabeth was living in 1516 (date of two lawsuits) but dead before
1518 (date of third lawsuit).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hal Bradley
Jun 27, 2013, 9:22:38 PM6/27/13
to Leo van de Pas, Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Leo,
For Ursula, see CP 2:201. Yes, she was the daughter of John Bohun. Her
sister Mary was the wife of David Owen.
Robert is the son of Richard & Amy (Wychingham) Southwell as you have
surmised. Harvey''s 1563 Vis. of Norfolk, 1:125 shows this as well, though
it erroneously names Robert's Calthorpe wife "Ursula" as well as his first
Bohun wife.
Cheers,
Hal Bradley
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-
> req...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> req...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3204/6443 - Release Date:
> 06/26/13
For Ursula, see CP 2:201. Yes, she was the daughter of John Bohun. Her
sister Mary was the wife of David Owen.
Robert is the son of Richard & Amy (Wychingham) Southwell as you have
surmised. Harvey''s 1563 Vis. of Norfolk, 1:125 shows this as well, though
it erroneously names Robert's Calthorpe wife "Ursula" as well as his first
Bohun wife.
Cheers,
Hal Bradley
> req...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-
>
>
> -------------------------------
> req...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -----
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3204/6443 - Release Date:
> 06/26/13
Leo van de Pas
Jun 27, 2013, 9:40:31 PM6/27/13
to Hal Bradley, Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Many thanks for this, much appreciated.
Leo
Leo
wjhonson
Jun 29, 2013, 9:06:18 PM6/29/13
to
On Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:09:22 PM UTC-7, Leo van de Pas wrote:
> I wonder whether Douglas Richardson realises he is opening a few interesting
>
> (for me) genealogical doors with his message.
>
>
>
> On Genealogics Elizabeth can be found as born in 1486 at Ingham, Norfolk,
>
> daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe of Burnham Thorpe and Mary Say. Amongst her
>
> ancestors are several Magna Carta Sureties, as well as King Harold II, King
>
> Henry II, William the Lion of Scotland and Llywellyn Fawr of Wales.
>
>
>
> Robert Southwell married first Ursula Bohun daughter of Sir John Bohun of
> Midhurst. I have no record for Ursula but she has to be a daughter of Sir
> John Bohun of Midhurst (died 1492) and Anne Arderne.
>
[snipped]
> I wonder whether Douglas Richardson realises he is opening a few interesting
>
> (for me) genealogical doors with his message.
>
>
>
> On Genealogics Elizabeth can be found as born in 1486 at Ingham, Norfolk,
>
> daughter of Sir Philip Calthorpe of Burnham Thorpe and Mary Say. Amongst her
>
> ancestors are several Magna Carta Sureties, as well as King Harold II, King
>
> Henry II, William the Lion of Scotland and Llywellyn Fawr of Wales.
>
>
>
> Robert Southwell married first Ursula Bohun daughter of Sir John Bohun of
> Midhurst. I have no record for Ursula but she has to be a daughter of Sir
> John Bohun of Midhurst (died 1492) and Anne Arderne.
>
http://books.google.com/books?id=l94rAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA76
"heir of his mother Mary, late wife of David Owen, daughter and heir of John Bohun, as kinsman and heir of Ursula Southwell... another daughter and heir"
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