Tiplady
Mary Jane Battaglia
He lived in Yorkshire and, at Sutton in Holderness in 1786, married an Elizabeth Jessie Cook. I have a family artifact, a lovely painted brooch with the portrait of a young woman of that time. The initials "EJC" are etched on the bottom edge of the picture. What was the custom of that time? Did the initials indicate the name of the person or the painter?
mjb
John Watson
wrote:
> I apologize for getting off topic and time, but in view of your members' expertise and resources, perhaps someone could enlighten me with the meaning or history of the strange name of one of my ancestors: Christopher TIPLADY.
> He lived in Yorkshire and, at Sutton in Holderness in 1786, married an Elizabeth Jessie Cook. I have a family artifact, a lovely painted brooch with the portrait of a young woman of that time. The initials "EJC" are etched on the bottom edge of the picture. What was the custom of that time? Did the initials indicate the name of the person or the painter?
> mjb
The Yorkshire family name of Tiplady is said to be derived from the
town of Topcliffe in the North Riding. Variants are Topley, Tiplady,
Topler, Topliffe, Topcliff, Topclive, Toppley, Topleif, Toplief.
Regards,
John
t...@clearwire.net
> The Yorkshire family name of Tiplady is said to be derived from the
> town of Topcliffe in the North Riding. Variants are Topley, Tiplady,
> Topler, Topliffe, Topcliff, Topclive, Toppley, Topleif, Toplief.
This is, to me, a new derivation. Looking at those names I have to
question whether they all derive from the same source. Admittedly
names can morph pretty severely, but I see Topley/Toppley as -legh
names. Syllables do sometimes get dropped, and I guess these could
come from Topcliffe, I think it less likely that they would pick up
that 'day' syllable at the end to become Tiplady.
I have seen a half-dozen different explanations for Tiplady, none of
them all that convincing. The earliest instance I was able to find was
from the 14th century, and was of a "Johanna Tippeleveday".
taf
Renia
I suspect the initials on the miniature were that of the painter.
A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames says of Tiplady that it is
possibly a Yorkshire name, citing John Typlady of Yorkshire in 1477. A
local variant is Toplady. However, of the surname Tippler, it says
tipler was an Elizabethan innkeeper. It cites William Tipeler in 1273 of
Sussex. I suspect Tiplady was a lady innkeeper.
Tiplady is certainly a Yorkshire surname. About half of the 435 Tipladys
in the 1841 England census were living in Yorkshire.
John Watson added:
> The Yorkshire family name of Tiplady is said to be derived from the
> town of Topcliffe in the North Riding. Variants are Topley, Tiplady,
> Topler, Topliffe, Topcliff, Topclive, Toppley, Topleif, Toplief.
I do not believe this or I would have seen more evidence of it. It's an
area I'm interested in but Tiplady is not a name familiar to me from
that area. In the Middle Ages it was one of the seats of the Percies.
The population in the 1820s was 659.
There were no Tipladys in Topcliffe in the 1841 census. If it was such a
localised name, one or two might have been still there. Almost half of
the 435 Tipladys in England in 1841 were in Yorkshire. Of those, 44 were
in Holderness, the largest concentration. 94 were in County Durham and
64 in Lancashire. Only one was in Lincolnshire, which, if it was a
Hull/Holderness name, we might expect to see more of. (There were 5
Topladys, all the same family, living in Nottinghamshire. No other real
variants of note.)
47 of those Tipladys in the 1841 census were born before 1790, 21 of
them being males. Of those 47, 29 were living in Yorkshire, 13 of them
being males. (2 in Aysgarth in West Hang Hundred, 1 in Aldborough in
Holderness Hundred, 1 in Bossall in Bulmer Hundred, 1 in Brompton by
Northallerton in Allertonshire Hundred, 1 in Fewston in Claro Hundred, 1
in Bingley in Skyrack Hundred, 1 in Guisborough in Langbourgh Hundred, 1
in Pickering in Pickering Hundred, 1 in Osmotherley in Allertonshire
Hundred, 1 in Thirsk in Bulmer Hundred, 1 in Horton in Morley Hundred
(Leeds area).
In Bulmer Hundred, there were 2. In neighbouring Allertonshire, there
were 2. In neighbouring Claro there was 1.
In the 1851 census there were 496 Tipladys, 286 of them living or born
in Yorkshire, 135 of those being males. There were 13 males born before
1790, 9 of them in Yorkshire. (The first location is where born, the
second is where living)[my brackets]:
Alexander Tiplady abt 1783 Askrigg, Yorkshire, England Head
Bainbridge Yorkshire
George Tiplady Ann abt 1781 Melbecks, Yorkshire, England Son
Melbecks Yorkshire [age 10, so not born 1781]
James Tiplady Ann abt 1783 Beamsley, Yorkshire, England Head
Thruscross Yorkshire
John Tiplady abt 1781 Yorkshire, England Visitor Stratford Le Bow
Middlesex
John Tiplady Seythey abt 1778 Sigston, Durham [Yorkshire], England
Head Brompton Yorkshire
Stephen Tiplady abt 1790 Yorkshire, England Hawsker Cum
Stainsacre Yorkshire
Thomas Tiplady Elizabeth abt 1789 Heighley, Yorkshire, England Head
Horton Yorkshire
Thomas Tiplady abt 1777 Buttercrambe, Yorkshire, England Father
Selby Yorkshire
Thomas Tiplady abt 1785 West Rounton, Yorkshire, England Brother
West Rounton Yorkshire
am...@alltel.net
Dictionary of English Surnames, 3rd ed., Oxford Univ. Press, 1995, p.
448. Reaney and Wilson show Tiplady as a variant of Toplady (or
Toplass), "both names for a libertine." (The famous English
hymnwriter, Augustus M. Toplady, would probably not appreciation this
derivation.)
"Libertine" and "female innkeeper" seem about equally likely, while
the other suggestions won't do!
DAVID L. GREENE, FASG
Editor and publisher, TAG
Ian Goddard
IMV census information can be far too late to get an idea of early
distributions. If only the whole of the C14th subsidy roll had survived...
An approach I like to use is to search IGI for hits for the early days
of the parish registers (yes, I know it's an erratic source but can you
find me something better?). Some years ago you could actually put an
asterisk in the Christian name box and a date range. Now you can leave
the Christian name box blank but can't put in a date and have to inspect
the full yield by mark one eyeball. Anyway as a result of looking for
the C16th hits out of the first 1600...
There were southern clusters in Dunstable and Castor in Northants. In
the north all the hits are on the right sight of the Pennines but well
spread and some of the names are ambiguous. However there seem to be
quite a few from Leake near Northallerton but they extend up into
Teesdale and down as far south as Coxwold, west to Pateley Bridge and
east via Settrington to Filey - but not Holderness. Potentially early
C17th hits could extend this simply by there being more surviving
registers. It would be an interesting exercise for the OP to plot the
spread half century by half century to get some idea when a family moved
into Holderness.
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
Renia
I agree with you but it can be useful, if only for elimination purposes.
Now, I have a 14th century Poll Tax somewhere, for Claro, I think. But
do you think I can find it?
> An approach I like to use is to search IGI for hits for the early days
> of the parish registers (yes, I know it's an erratic source but can you
> find me something better?). Some years ago you could actually put an
> asterisk in the Christian name box and a date range. Now you can leave
> the Christian name box blank but can't put in a date and have to inspect
> the full yield by mark one eyeball. Anyway as a result of looking for
> the C16th hits out of the first 1600...
>
> There were southern clusters in Dunstable and Castor in Northants. In
> the north all the hits are on the right sight of the Pennines but well
> spread and some of the names are ambiguous. However there seem to be
> quite a few from Leake near Northallerton but they extend up into
> Teesdale and down as far south as Coxwold, west to Pateley Bridge and
> east via Settrington to Filey - but not Holderness. Potentially early
> C17th hits could extend this simply by there being more surviving
> registers. It would be an interesting exercise for the OP to plot the
> spread half century by half century to get some idea when a family moved
> into Holderness.
I tried the IGI, but, like you, found the spread too diverse to come to
any conclusion.
Ian Goddard
>
> Now, I have a 14th century Poll Tax somewhere, for Claro, I think. But
> do you think I can find it?
Genuki has what is supposed to be the entire West Riding roll. I say
supposed to be because although all the membranes are present at least
one locality, Cowick, isn't even listed. Needless to say it's a
locality I'm interested in. Maybe they were good at avoiding tax
collectors.
I searched the whole roll for Tipl, Topl and Typl and also for "pel"
variations without finding anything.
Bill Arnold
find me something better?). Some years ago you could actually put an
asterisk in the Christian name box and a date range. Now you can leave
the Christian name box blank but can't put in a date and have to inspect
BA: All right, I'll bite...what is IGI and how do you search it? Is it online?
Bill
*****
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Renia
> Ian Goddard: An approach I like to use is to search IGI for hits for the early days
> of the parish registers (yes, I know it's an erratic source but can you
> find me something better?). Some years ago you could actually put an
> asterisk in the Christian name box and a date range. Now you can leave
> the Christian name box blank but can't put in a date and have to inspect
> the full yield by mark one eyeball... There were southern clusters in Dunstable
> and Castor in Northants. In the north all the hits are on the right sight of
> Pennines...It would be an interesting exercise for the OP to plot the
> spread half century by half century to get some idea when a family moved
> Holderness.
>
> BA: All right, I'll bite...what is IGI and how do you search it? Is it online?
It's a huge database run by the Mormons (Church of Latter Day Saints).
If you click on "search", it will take you to a page where you can
choose what to search, for example, the IGI "International Genealogical
Index". You have to be careful how to use it.
Let's say we are looking for Robert Peck in Suffolk. It gives us more
than 200 possible answers with a variety of related or variant
spellings. Sometimes these variants are closely related, at other times,
they are completely different surnames. (To reduce the numbers, fill in
the dates.)
When you see someone born, baptised or married "about", on that page,
then you know automatically, the entry has been made by an Latter Day
Saints (LDS) member who doesn't know when the event happened. These
sorts of entries can be highly unreliable.
When you see a specific date, you are possibly on safer ground, but only
if the "message" section for the person concerned, contains this notice:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the
record.
Click on the Source Call Number, and you can see what the source or
record is. If it is from a Parish Register (PR) or Bishop's Transcript
(BT), you are on safer ground. Usually, these Parish Registers are ones
already printed and available in libraries from which the IGI has
extracted the data.
Bill Arnold
--- Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
BA: Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response.
I will save it in my files. You are a gentlewoman and a scholar, par excellence!
Mary Jane Battaglia
THANK YOU! Now my head is really spinning at all the possibilities.
Renias' comments re the innkeeper angle had occurred to me..especially
the current interpretation of "tippler", but that's just speculation right
now. And David Green's comments re "libertine" and Augustus M.Toplady
connections had been suggested to me but not taken seriously (ha). The
ancient use of the name "Johanna Tippelereday" as suggested by taf is now
filed away should I ever get back that far.
Renias' information re where and when the name is/was found should
prove helpful and will be studied.. Clues from my own research (Documented.
I actually saw the entries in the Beverly Parish book the birth of my great
grandmother, Maria and her twin, Emily in 1838) indicate that Christopher
and Elizabeth produced 8 children, the first three (William, Mary Ann and
Rebecca) were born in Beverly/Hull region while the rest (George Cook
Tiplady, John, Elizabeth, Ruth Ann, Joseph and Frances) were born in the
Stepney area, London where Christopher was a cordwainer. The youngest,
Frances, was my ancestor. She was baptized in her teens (1813) at St
Dunsten, Miles End, New Town.
(Please excuse, but a personal note we still cherish: While in
London we sought out this church. It had a huge metal plaque on
the front
indicating that it had been remodeled (renovated)......
in....1200AD!
We were impressed!)
Some of the Tipladys moved back the Beverly/Hull area where, in1830,
Frances married Robert Brown, a brick layer, (the census indicated that
only he had not been born this same County). Names of their children were:
Charles, Alfred, Maria, Emily, Edwin, Fredrick, Herbert, Jessie Elizabeth,
and Emma. (I consider children's names as "clues.") Somewhere between 1841
and 1850 the family left for the US. No more census records.
When I first started searching for the Tiplady name I found somewhere
in the York area that there was a connection with the occupation of
"weavers." Then I learned that weavers usually came from Belgium. Jochem
Heicke may be on to something with the suggestion of "t'Pladi" etc. This
seems quite reasonable. Also, I would like to think the portrait is of
Elizabeth Jessie Cook. If so, she was quite attractive and the painting
seems professional.
Again, thanks to you all. It seems that I will just have to follow
Goddard's suggestion and go back seeking out parish records and work
backward. Maybe I'll get lucky.
mjb
h...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:733b442b-6781-4c29...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 26, 9:57 am, "Mary Jane Battaglia" <mjb...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>> I apologize for getting off topic and time, but in view of your
>> members' expertise and resources, perhaps someone could enlighten me with
>> the meaning or history of the strange name of one of my ancestors:
>> Christopher TIPLADY.
>> He lived in Yorkshire and, at Sutton in Holderness in 1786, married
>> an Elizabeth Jessie Cook. I have a family artifact, a lovely painted
>> brooch with the portrait of a young woman of that time. The initials
>> "EJC" are etched on the bottom edge of the picture. What was the custom
>> of that time? Did the initials indicate the name of the person or the
>> painter?
>> mjb
>
> The Yorkshire family name of Tiplady is said to be derived from the
> town of Topcliffe in the North Riding. Variants are Topley, Tiplady,
> Topler, Topliffe, Topcliff, Topclive, Toppley, Topleif, Toplief.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
John Watson
> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Mary Jane,
Glad to be of assistance, although I have no idea if the Topcliffe
derivation of the Tiplady name is correct or not.
I have a few Tipladys in my tree, but from a bit further north than
yours around Hurworth on Tees. Your Tipladys seem to have originated
in the Holderness (Burton Pidsea, Withernwick, Welwick) area of the
East Riding from a quick look through IGI, but that's just a guess.
Regards,
John
Renia
>
> When I first started searching for the Tiplady name I found
> somewhere in the York area that there was a connection with the
> occupation of "weavers." Then I learned that weavers usually came from
> Belgium.
You are thinking of the 12/13th century Flemish* weavers. Weaving was a
hot industry in Yorkshire in the 18th century, until the building of
huge mills in Yorkshire and Lancashire, which displaced many thousands
of weavers and helped the surge towards emigration. The building of the
mills meant the end of the economic line for many weavers who worked at
home. They just couldn't compete with those Dark Satanic Mills.
http://www.leeds.gov.uk/armleymills/armdark.html
*Flanders comprised parts of what are now Belgium, France and The
Netherlands.
Renia
> To all you kind Scholars who have responded to my query re "Tiplady:"
>
> Again, thanks to you all. It seems that I will just have to follow
> Goddard's suggestion and go back seeking out parish records and work
> backward. Maybe I'll get lucky.
It's the only way, backwards from what you know to what you don't know.
How many of us have searched merrily backwards along one surname, just
to find that surname changed unexpectedly for any given number of reasons?
Leticia Cluff
If that is indeed the earliest form, then it rules out any connection
with Topcliff. The element "leveday" resembles the many possible
medieval spellings of the word "lady" that can be found in the Oxford
English Dictionary, including:
leivedi, levede, levedie, levidi, lavedy.
The name Tiplady is included in this list of names suggestive of loose
sexual behavior:
"A literal meaning of the thirteenth century English by-name
Plantefolie is `wickedness shoot', which might either be a metonym
(synecdoche) for a `male generator of bastards' or, with the offshoot
sense, it might mean metaphorically a `bastard child'. We can compare
the metonymic sense, to wit a `male generator of offspring', with
other names such as Toplady, Tiplady, Toplass, Topliss, Shakelady,
Fullielove, Paramore, Sweetlove, Spendlove, Lemon (`lover',
`sweetheart'), Blandamer (from Pleyn d'amour, cf. Fullielove), and
perhaps also for example Pullrose, Breakspear, and Whitehorn, not to
mention many obscene by-names."
That's from an interesting article about the origin of the name and
family of Plant. It may be of interest to people here because of the
passing mention of Plantagenet, but there are many other good reasons
for reading the article:
http://cogprints.org/5462/1/nomina_eprint.pdf
The meaning of the name as a man who does something to ladies might
not be the derivation that Mary Jane most wants to hear, but it seems
like a very strong possibility, given the form "leveday" and the many
semantic parallels.
Tish
Bill Arnold
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071126/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_austria_map
By Karin Strohecker
Mon Nov 26, 11:10 AM ET
An 800-year-old map, the sole surviving copy of a chart used by the Roman Empire's courier
service, was put on show for just one day on Monday after being accorded "Memory of the World"
status by UNESCO.
The parchment scroll, nearly 7 metres (yards) long, could only be displayed briefly because too
much light would damage it, before it was returned to storage at Austria's National Library, where
it has been since 1738.
Named Tabula Peutingeriana after the German antiquarian who owned it in the 16th century, the map
shows roads linking some 4,000 settlements as well as mountains, rivers and forests from Spain in
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>From north to south, the map covers the British Isles to north Africa. But because the scroll is
just over 30 cms (12 inches) high, the north-south axis is greatly compressed, depicting the
Mediterranean Sea as a small stretch of blue squeezed between today's Croatia and Italy.
"It's a bit like when you look at a map of the Vienna underground system -- it's not accurate but
it gives you a good idea of how to get around," Andreas Fingernagel of the National Library told
journalists at the showing.
The document, preserved in 11 segments, was written on parchment at the end of the 12th century as
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The copy was probably made in southern Germany at the end of the 12th century, said Fingernagel.
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the 5th century, and so far only half of the 4,000 settlements have been identified, said
Fingernagel.
Globally, 158 documents have UNESCO Memory of the World status, which aims to preserve and
disseminate valuable archive treasures and library collections. UNESCO also grants World Heritage
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(editing by Tim Pearce)
Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
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Renia
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:13:36 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote:
>
>
>>On Nov 25, 7:35 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The Yorkshire family name of Tiplady is said to be derived from the
>>>town of Topcliffe in the North Riding. Variants are Topley, Tiplady,
>>>Topler, Topliffe, Topcliff, Topclive, Toppley, Topleif, Toplief.
>>
>>This is, to me, a new derivation. Looking at those names I have to
>>question whether they all derive from the same source. Admittedly
>>names can morph pretty severely, but I see Topley/Toppley as -legh
>>names. Syllables do sometimes get dropped, and I guess these could
>>come from Topcliffe, I think it less likely that they would pick up
>>that 'day' syllable at the end to become Tiplady.
>>
>>I have seen a half-dozen different explanations for Tiplady, none of
>>them all that convincing. The earliest instance I was able to find was
>
>>from the 14th century, and was of a "Johanna Tippeleveday".
>
> If that is indeed the earliest form, then it rules out any connection
> with Topcliff. The element "leveday" resembles the many possible
> medieval spellings of the word "lady" that can be found in the Oxford
> English Dictionary, including:
>
> leivedi, levede, levedie, levidi, lavedy.
It's more like the surname Loveday than a deriviation of "lady", but
probably supports the para below describing "loving" surnames.
Leticia Cluff
wrote:
>Leticia Cluff wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:13:36 -0800 (PST), t...@clearwire.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Nov 25, 7:35 pm, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Yorkshire family name of Tiplady is said to be derived from the
>>>>town of Topcliffe in the North Riding. Variants are Topley, Tiplady,
>>>>Topler, Topliffe, Topcliff, Topclive, Toppley, Topleif, Toplief.
>>>
>>>This is, to me, a new derivation. Looking at those names I have to
>>>question whether they all derive from the same source. Admittedly
>>>names can morph pretty severely, but I see Topley/Toppley as -legh
>>>names. Syllables do sometimes get dropped, and I guess these could
>>>come from Topcliffe, I think it less likely that they would pick up
>>>that 'day' syllable at the end to become Tiplady.
>>>
>>>I have seen a half-dozen different explanations for Tiplady, none of
>>>them all that convincing. The earliest instance I was able to find was
>>
>>>from the 14th century, and was of a "Johanna Tippeleveday".
>>
>> If that is indeed the earliest form, then it rules out any connection
>> with Topcliff. The element "leveday" resembles the many possible
>> medieval spellings of the word "lady" that can be found in the Oxford
>> English Dictionary, including:
>>
>> leivedi, levede, levedie, levidi, lavedy.
>
>It's more like the surname Loveday than a deriviation of "lady", but
>probably supports the para below describing "loving" surnames.
I still can't help feeling that the "leveday" in Tippeleveday is
closer to "leivedi, levede, levedie, levidi, lavedy" than it is to
Loveday. What would a combination of Tip and Loveday mean?
Tish
t...@clearwire.net
wrote:
> The name Tiplady is included in this list of names suggestive of loose
> sexual behavior:
>
> "A literal meaning of the thirteenth century English by-name
> Plantefolie is `wickedness shoot', which might either be a metonym
> (synecdoche) for a `male generator of bastards' or, with the offshoot
> sense, it might mean metaphorically a `bastard child'. We can compare
> the metonymic sense, to wit a `male generator of offspring', with
> other names such as Toplady, Tiplady, Toplass, Topliss, Shakelady,
> Fullielove, Paramore, Sweetlove, Spendlove, Lemon (`lover',
> `sweetheart'), Blandamer (from Pleyn d'amour, cf. Fullielove), and
> perhaps also for example Pullrose, Breakspear, and Whitehorn, not to
> mention many obscene by-names."
I think the author is trying to hard, including Breakspear, which is
more likely to be literal than metaphorical.
> The meaning of the name as a man who does something to ladies might
> not be the derivation that Mary Jane most wants to hear, but it seems
> like a very strong possibility, given the form "leveday" and the many
> semantic parallels.
On the flip-side, I saw it in a similar list of names which were said
to likely reference the Holy Mother (the Lady in question).
taf
Renia
Tippled lady or female drunk who is, em, very loving.
That's why I favour "a lady tavern keeper" for the origin of Tiplady. So
far.
t...@clearwire.net
wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:17:20 +0200, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
> wrote:
>
> >> leivedi, levede, levedie, levidi, lavedy.
>
> >It's more like the surname Loveday than a deriviation of "lady", but
> >probably supports the para below describing "loving" surnames.
Also a female given name.
> I still can't help feeling that the "leveday" in Tippeleveday is
> closer to "leivedi, levede, levedie, levidi, lavedy" than it is to
> Loveday.
But where does Loveday come from: this need not be an either/or -
Loveday could just as well be a variant of levedie.
taf
Ian Goddard
>
> Again, thanks to you all. It seems that I will just have to follow
> Goddard's suggestion and go back seeking out parish records and work
> backward. Maybe I'll get lucky.
>
>
Another resource is www.a2a.org.uk which is an index to many UK
archives. I tried looking for early Tipladys (or should that be
Tipladies) there without success. In passing I did find a couple for
Holderness in the C18th and that in the previous century a George
Tiplady was sentenced to be whipped through the streets of York for
stealing a sheep.
Bill Arnold
I found the following post to gen-medieval in the
archives:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2007-11/1196126774
BA: It caught my eye, because I used to live in Scituate, Massachusetts, and also
on Martha's Vineyard, re: Edgartown, West Tisbury, Chilmark, et al., knowing the
family and town names, and my ancestral family also lived on Nantucket. Can
anyone* explain to gen-medievalers how these family lists are derived? in some
cases I see place names, but no sources. Specifically, are these ancestors found
online? I have worked with Massachusetts sources, so I am curious to learn the
research methodology employed to arrived at this pedigree? Indeed, I find some
of my own ancestral surnames in there. Might lead to a Robert Peck, the Elder,
of Wakefield :0 But if I printed such a pedigree on gen-medieval, I am quite
sure everyone would be screaming: what are the sources?
Bill
*****
Subject: Re: Gramma's AT
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:26:14 -0800 (PST)
Quality is in the toilet on this segment (all those darn Scituate
families were boring the stuffing out of me). But if anyone spots
egregious errors, I'd be happy to know of them.
501. Mary Loomis [250/1002], b. 1659/60 --- d. 11 May 1695
502. Nathaniel Foote [251/1004], b. 1647 --- d. 1703 [?
Wethersfield], Connecticut m. ---
503. Margaret Bliss [251/1006], b. --- d. ---
504. Rev. Samuel Osborn [252/1008], b. ca. 1685 [? Ireland] d. ca.
1774 Boston, Massachusetts m. (1) 1 Jan. 1710/11 Edgartown, Martha's
Vineyard, to Jedidah Smith, d. before Oct. 1743; m. (2) int. 19 Oct.
1743 Boston, Massachusetts to widow Experience (Scudder) Hopkins, b.
28 April 1692 Barnstable, Massachusetts d. after 1756 prob. Chatham,
Massachusetts. Rev. Samuel Osborn's eldest child was an illegitimate
son, Samuel Osborn, Jr., born about the time of his first marriage,
the mother being ...
505. Mercy Norton [252/1010], b. ca. 1687 Martha's Vineyard,
Massachusetts d. 1762 Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts.
She married 30 Nov. 1715 Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts,
to James Claghorn, b. Aug. 1689, d. 18 Jan. 1749/50 Edgartown,
Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts (mentally "disordered" from 1745
until his death).
506. John Butler [253/1012], b. ca. 1674 d. after 6 Feb. 1754 [?
Tisbury, Martha's Vineyard] m. 16 Dec.1708 Edgartown, Martha's
Vineyard
507. Elizabeth Daggett or Doggett [253/1014], b. ca. 1690 Edgartown,
Martha's Vineyard d. after 1753 [? Tisbury, Martha's Vineyard]
508. John Wass [254/1016], b. --- d. --- m. ---
509. Anne Wilmot [254/1018], b. --- d. ---
510. Col. [? Maj.] John Allen [255/1020], b. ca. 1682 West Tisbury,
Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts d. 17 Oct. 1767 Chilmark, Martha's
Vineyard, Massachusetts m. 1 March 1715/16 Chilmark, Martha's
Vineyard, Massachusetts
511. Margaret Homes [255/1022], b. 28 Feb. 1695/6 Strabane, Ireland;
d. 26 April 1778 Chilmark, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts
[matrilineal ancestor]
512. Richard Porter [256/1024], b. --- d. between 25 Dec. 1688-6
March 1689 m. ---
513. --- ---- [256/1026], b. --- d. --- [no evidence she was named
Ruth, per the Great Migration 1634-35 series]
514. Nicholas Byram [257/1028], b. --- d. 13 April 1688 Bridgewater,
Massachusetts m. ---
515. Susanna Shaw [257/1030], b. ca. 1617 d. between 7 Sept. 1698-18
Dec. 1700
516. - 519. ---
520. Robert Randall [260/1040], b. --- d. ca. 1691 [?] Weymouth,
Massachusetts; (2) Mary French, living 1679; m. (1)
521. Mary ---- [260/1042], b. --- bur. 3 Sept. 1640 Weymouth,
Massachusetts
522. George Aldrich [261/1044]
523. Katherine --- [261/1046]
524. John Benson [262/1048], b. ca. 1608 [? Caversham, Oxfordshire]
d. 13 Jan. 1678 Hull, Massachusetts m. 14 Oct. 1633 Caversham,
Oxfordshire
525. Mary Williams [262/1050], b. ca. 1610 d. 14 Dec. 1681 Hull,
Massachusetts
526. - 535. ---
536. Richard Porter [268/1072], same as no. 512.
537. --- ---- [268/1074], same as no. 513.
538. Nicholas Byram [269/1076], same as no. 514.
539. Susanna Shaw [269/1078], same as no. 515.
540. William Ford [270/1080], b. ca. 1604 d. 28 Sept. 1676 m. ---
541. Anna ---- [270/1082], b. --- d. 1 Sept. 1684
542. John Dingley [271/1084], b. --- d. before 18 March 1689/90
Marshfield, Massachusetts m. ---
543. Sarah --- [271/1086], b. --- d. ---
544. Richard Silvester [272/1088], b. --- d. 1663 [? Marshfield,
Massachusetts] m. ca. 1632
545. Naomi --- [272/1090], b. --- d. [? before] 26 Nov. 1668 [?
Marshfield, Massachusetts]
546. William Barstow [273/1092], b. --- d. --- m. ---
547. Ann Hubbard [273/1094], b. --- d. ---
548. - 551. ---
552. John Palmer I [276/1104], b. ca. 1601 [aged about 40 in 1641 per
Lechford] d. after 1657 Scituate, Massachusetts
553. --- --- [276/1106]
554. William Randall [277/1108]
555. Elizabeth [? Carver] [277/1110]
556. --- Rose [278/1112]
557. --- ---- [278/1114]
558. Thomas Hatch [279/1116], b. ca. 1596 [? Wye, Kent] d. by June
1646 Scituate, Massachusetts (when Lydia was called a widow) m. ca.
1622
559. Lydia ---- [279/1118], b. ---; living 1665 Scituate,
Massachusetts; m. (2) by 1654 John Spring of Watertown, from whom she
later separated [a Thomas Hatch and Lydia Gyles were married 11 Feb.
1617 at Tonbridge, Kent, per the IGI]
560. --- Rose [280/1120], same as no. 556.
561. --- ---- [280/1122], same as no. 557.
562. Thomas Hatch [281/1124], same as no. 558.
563. Lydia ---- [281/1126], same as no. 559.
564. (probably) John Collamore [282/1128], b. 1608 [? Northam,
Devonshire] d. prob. 1657 [? Northam, Devonshire] m. 1637 [? Northam,
Devonshire]
565. (probably) Mary Nicholl [282/1130], b. --- d. ---
566. Isaac Chittenden [283/1132], b. ca. 1625 d. 1676 [? Scituate,
Massachusetts] m. 1646
567. Martha Vinal [283/1134], bapt. 10 Aug. 1628 Benenden, Kent d.
---
568. Richard Silvester [284/1136], same as no. 544.
569. Naomi --- [284/1138], same as no. 545.
570. - 571. ---
572. Cornet Robert Stetson [286/1144], b. 1613 [? Kent, England] d.
1703 Scituate, Massachusetts
573. Honor [? Tucker] [286/1146], b. --- d. ---
574. - 600. ---
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Ian Goddard
>
> When you see someone born, baptised or married "about", on that page,
> then you know automatically, the entry has been made by an Latter Day
> Saints (LDS) member who doesn't know when the event happened. These
> sorts of entries can be highly unreliable.
Another bad sign is something like "Mrs John Smith". It means that John
Smith is named as the father (usually the entry of a baptism or burial
of an infant) but the mother wasn't. So someone helpfully assumes that
not only must there have been a Mrs John Smith but that she was born at
some guesstimated time earlier.
There are a few other oddities. I ran up against what was listed as the
baptism of wife of John Goddard as "Christiana" when her actual name
(they were my ggg grandparents) was Mary. In fact the curate had made a
number of entries on the lines of "Ch wife of xxxx" in the baptism
register including multiple ones for the same person. I concluded
(there was some discussion in soc.gen.britain) that this was recording
the rite known as Churching of women.
OTOH one sometimes wonders if an entry is based on some good information
other than the registers.
>
> Click on the Source Call Number, and you can see what the source or
> record is. If it is from a Parish Register (PR) or Bishop's Transcript
> (BT), you are on safer ground. Usually, these Parish Registers are ones
> already printed and available in libraries from which the IGI has
> extracted the data.
One reason I added a degree of caution is that the coverage is erratic,
especially for the early period. Survival is one factor and
unwillingness of some dioceses or vicars to allow filming or
transcription is another. This can bias mapping. For instance the
C16th registers for Goddard in Yorkshire have entries for Almondbury and
Kirkburton parishes but not Emley although there are manorial records
for Goddards in Emley. It's simply that Emley registers only survive
back to the early C17th.
Nevertheless I think this geographical approach is a potent one and
there's scope for understanding how families spread before the
Industrial Revolution. For instance, looking at the Goddard name again
and including early C17th records there seems to me to be an association
with areas in which the FitzWilliams had an interest - were manorial
lords moving people, or at least encouraging movement, between their
manors. This approach is not genealogy sensu stricto but it can enable
those of us who can't identify medieval ancestors to understand
something of our origins.
Renia
>> Click on the Source Call Number, and you can see what the source or
>> record is. If it is from a Parish Register (PR) or Bishop's Transcript
>> (BT), you are on safer ground. Usually, these Parish Registers are
>> ones already printed and available in libraries from which the IGI has
>> extracted the data.
>
>
> One reason I added a degree of caution is that the coverage is erratic,
> especially for the early period. Survival is one factor and
> unwillingness of some dioceses or vicars to allow filming or
> transcription is another. This can bias mapping. For instance the
> C16th registers for Goddard in Yorkshire have entries for Almondbury and
> Kirkburton parishes but not Emley although there are manorial records
> for Goddards in Emley. It's simply that Emley registers only survive
> back to the early C17th.
I have transcribed some Parish Registers myself and noticed considerable
differences between the entries in the PRs and the entries in the
Bishops Transcripts. Sometimes the BTs give more info, sometimes quite
different info, other times, less info. Seems to depend on the mood of
the rector/clerk at the time he made his copies. I've also come across
several instances where the son's name has been transposed as the son's
on the PR, e.g. Thomas son of Thomas, where the father was really Peter.
The coverage of PRs is erratic because some PRs are not for the whole
period. For example, the printed PR for Thirsk only goes from 1557-1727.
After that, it's down to hard slog on the microfilm. Other printed PRs
cover the later period. Of course, many PRs have that nasty Commonwealth
Gap to deal with. Don't most of our ancestors just happen to have been
getting married and having babies during that period? Frustrating.
t...@clearwire.net
> Renia wrote:
>
> > When you see someone born, baptised or married "about", on that page,
> > then you know automatically, the entry has been made by an Latter Day
> > Saints (LDS) member who doesn't know when the event happened. These
> > sorts of entries can be highly unreliable.
>
> Another bad sign is something like "Mrs John Smith". It means that John
> Smith is named as the father (usually the entry of a baptism or burial
> of an infant) but the mother wasn't. So someone helpfully assumes that
> not only must there have been a Mrs John Smith but that she was born at
> some guesstimated time earlier.
Part of this was an issue with the software. You couldn't enter a
child with just one parent, you had to establish a 'family' with a
'marriage' between a father and mother, and then add the children.
Likewise, a date (some date, any date) and place were absolutely
required, forcing such bad behavior.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
Vide "Roundheels".
DSH
"Leticia Cluff" <letici...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qg3ok3psm8p51rsad...@4ax.com...
Ian Goddard
>
> Part of this was an issue with the software. You couldn't enter a
> child with just one parent, you had to establish a 'family' with a
> 'marriage' between a father and mother, and then add the children.
> Likewise, a date (some date, any date) and place were absolutely
> required, forcing such bad behavior.
>
> taf
Thanks for that illumination. A prime example of the consequences of
making too many assumptions about the domain when writing S/W!