C.P. Addition: Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Complete Peerage 12 Pt. 1 (1953): 419-421 has a good account of the
life history of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley (died 1473). Regarding
his first marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married, 1stly, before 6 July 1419, Elizabeth, widow of John Hende;
she died 28 August 1462."
As we can see, Complete Peerage provides no information regarding the
maiden name of Sir Ralph's first wife, Elizabeth, nor any statement
regarding her parentage.
A clue to Lady Sudeley's identity, however, is found in the register of
John Wheathampstead (died 1465), Abbot of St. Albans, a transcript of
which was published back in 1872. The abbot's register contains a
series of documents dated 1460 relating the abbot's dealings with Sir
Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley, regarding the acquisition of the reversion
of the manor of More (in Rickmansworth), Hertfordshire.
These documents indicate that the abbot determined to write to the Lady
Sudeley, his kinswoman, and obtain her assistance towards gaining his
object:
"Inter quas vias, modos, et media, dum revolveret haæc et illa, ac
alia varia, demum supposuit unum esse aptius, immo, aptissimum, ad suum
expediendium negotium, in opinione sua; scribere, scilicet, litteras
placibiles et persuasorias illustri Dominæ, Dominæ Elizabeth, dicti
Domini conjugi, suæ consanguinæ ..." [Reference: Riley, Chronica
Monasterii S. Albani 1: Registrum Abbatiæ Johannis Whethamstede (Rolls
Ser. 28) (1872): 357-367].
Besides showing that Elizabeth Boteler was kinswoman of John
Wheathampstead, Abbot of St. Albans, the documents confirm that Sir
Ralph Boteler and his wife, Elizabeth's only son and heir apparent, Sir
Thomas, was dead in 1460. Eventually Sir Ralph Boteler sold the
reversion of the manor of More to the Abbot for 3,000 marks, and the
prayers of the Convent for the souls of himself, his wife, and their
deceased son, Thomas. The Abbot obtained a license from King Henry VI
to hold the reversion on 25 March 1460.
This agrees well with an earlier post of mine of various Boteler
documents from the A2A catalogue, one of which shows that Sir Ralph
Boteler quitclaimed property to his son, Thomas' widow, Eleanor Talbot,
on 15 January 1460. In the the A2A document, Sir Ralph does not
indicate that his son, Thomas, was knighted, which fact is indicated in
the Wheathampstead documents. The fact that Thomas Boteler was
knighted is also overlooked by Complete Peerage.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
al...@mindspring.com
excellent find Douglas.
Perhaps some digging in the Bostock, Vernon and related families will
establish her identity.
Doug Smith
Brad Verity
> "He married, 1stly, before 6 July 1419, Elizabeth, widow of John Hende;
> she died 28 August 1462."
>
> As we can see, Complete Peerage provides no information regarding the
> maiden name of Sir Ralph's first wife, Elizabeth, nor any statement
> regarding her parentage.
Douglas,
John Ashdown-Hill, of the Richard III Society, has studied Lady Eleanor
Butler (daughter-in-law of Lord Sudeley) and the Butler family in great
detail.
Per John's article 'Lady Eleanor Talbot's Other Husband: Sir Thomas
Butler, Heir of Sudeley, and his Family' (The Ricardian, Volume XIV,
2004, pp. 62-81):
"Thomas' mother was Ralph's first wife. Her name has been given by
most earlier writers as Elizabeth Hende [footnote: 'Complete Peerage',
vol. 12 part 1, London 1953, p. 421.] but, like Alice Lovel, Elizabeth
had also had a previous husband, and Hende was not her maiden name, but
rather the surname which she had acquired by that previous marriage ...
Elizabeth's maiden name was Norbury, which is a toponym. Her family
had for several generations held the manor of Norbury in Cheshire, and
under the earlier surname of Bulkeley, had been domiciled in that
county for even longer ... Sir Thomas's mother was the daughter of the
wealthy Sir John Norbury I of Norbury, Cheshire, Treasurer of England.
The career of Sir John Norbury I is well documented, although the fact
that he was Sir Thomas Butler's grandfather has not previously been
recognised.
"Elizabeth Norbury had at least one sister and two half-brothers. Her
father married twice. His first wife, the mother, if chronology is any
guide, of both Elizabeth and her sister, Joan, was called Petronilla,
but her maiden surname I have not discovered. Petronilla was still
living in August 1401, when she is named with her husband as the
recipient of Henry IV's grant of the manor of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire,
but by 1412 Sir John [Norbury] was married to Lord Sudeley's sister,
Elizabeth Butler, and they already had two sons. Probably Petronilla
died in about 1404 and Sir John's marriage with the widowed Elizabeth
Butler, Lady Say, took place in about 1405. [footnote: 'CPR 1399-1401',
p. 541; 'CPR 1408-13', p. 404.] ... As we have seen, thanks to her
father's business connections, in about 1408, Elizabeth [Norbury], who
was then probably about fifteen years of age, was married to the much
older but very wealthy widower, John Hende II, draper and past mayor
(1391-92 and 1404-05). John was probably aged about fifty-eight at the
time of marriage ... John Hende II died in 1418 ... About a year later,
Elizabeth married Ralph Butler, who, on the death of an elder brother,
had recently inherited the title of Lord Sudeley."
[snip]
> This agrees well with an earlier post of mine of various Boteler
> documents from the A2A catalogue, one of which shows that Sir Ralph
> Boteler quitclaimed property to his son, Thomas' widow, Eleanor Talbot,
> on 15 January 1460.
John Ashdown-Hill has examined and is preparing an article on these
Butler transaction documents held by the Warwickshire Record Office.
Cheers, ----Brad
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated. I'm glad to hear Mr.
Ashdown-Hill is working on these families. I have a high opinion of
his work.
Did Mr. Ashdown-Hill give his source(s) for identifying the parentage
of Elizabeth, wife of John Hende and Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley?
I've seen it claimed in print in the past that Elizabeth was a Norbury,
but always without documentation. What documentation did Mr.
Ashdown-Hill provide to prove his identification of Lady Sudeley's
parentage?
Actually it makes sense for Elizabeth, Lady Sudeley to be a daughter of
Sir John Norbury, Treasurer of England. My research indicates that Sir
John Norbury was originally from Cheshire. I note various online
sources claim that Lady Sudeley's kinsman, Abbot John Wheathampstead,
is the son of Hugh Bostock, of Wheathampstead, Hertfordshire. Hugh
Bostock was also originally from Cheshire.
For particulars of Hugh Bostock and his family, see the following
website:
http://bostock.net/tree/bostgen/trees/bost33.html
This source provides no link between the Bostock and Norbury families,
however.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Brad Verity
> Did Mr. Ashdown-Hill give his source(s) for identifying the parentage
> of Elizabeth, wife of John Hende and Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord Sudeley?
> I've seen it claimed in print in the past that Elizabeth was a Norbury,
> but always without documentation. What documentation did Mr.
> Ashdown-Hill provide to prove his identification of Lady Sudeley's
> parentage?
For John Norbury's career and coat of arms, he cites M. Barber, 'John
Norbury', 'English Historical Review', vol. 68 (1953), pp. 66-76.
Ashdown-Hill: "Like the Butlers, the Norbury family began by holding
one or two manors. Their family surname had originally been Bulkeley,
which was derived from the name of the manor they first held in
Cheshire ... It had been Elizabeth Norbury's great grandfather, Roger,
who had changed the family surname from Bulkeley to Norbury on
inheriting the manor of Norbury. The Bulkeley coat of arms: 'sable, a
chevron between three bulls' heads cabossed argent', [footnote: B.
Burke, 'The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales',
London 1984, p. 736] was borne by Elizabeth's father, but with a fleur
de lis sable on the chevron for difference. Sir John Norbury, however,
inherited no manors to go with his coat of arms, and was left to make
his own way in the world. [footnote: Barber, 'John Norbury', p. 66.]"
The proof that Lord Sudeley's wife Elizabeth was daughter of Sir John
Norbury seems to be through the coat of arms.
Ashdown-Hill: "Elizabeth's Norbury arms can be clearly seen, impaled by
the arms of Butler of Sudeley, on the Sudeley pedigree roll which was
made in 1449 to celebrate Sir Thomas Butler's forthcoming marriage to
Lady Eleanor Talbot. [footnote: New York City Library, Spencer MS.
193.]"
> This source provides no link between the Bostock and Norbury families,
> however.
Maybe there is a connection between the Bostock and Bulkeley families,
making them more distant kin.
Cheers, ----Brad
Bevan Shortridge
Incidentally, the Barber article on John Norbury in EHR only mentions one daughter for John Norbury
called Joan, from his first marriage (EHR says the wife is unknown - HoP names her as Petronilla).
Joan was married firstly to Nicholas Usk, treasurer of the duke of Lancaster's household
(p. 67-8) and secondly to William Parker, London alderman and mercer (p. 74).
There was a proposed third husband for Joan who was Richard, Lord Seymour, for which
a contract was drawn up but "it is not certain the marriage actually took place".(p. 68)
The article mentions John Norbury's second marriage to Elizabeth Botiller, widow of William
Heron, Lord Say. Elizabeth was the sister of Ralph, Lord Sudeley, who was the mother of Henry Norbury
(godson to Henry IV)(pp. 68, 69, 74).
"The Norbury arms (argent a chevron engrailed between three bull's heads cabossed sable) are
to be found quartered with those of many respectable families in the fifteenth and sixteenth
centuries. They appear with those of Halliwell on the tomb of Sir Robert Whittingham (1471) in
Aldbury Church, and with Botiller and Sudeley in the arms of Henry Brooke, Lord Cobham (1657-8)
from Ashbourne Hall in Derbyshire."
(p. 69, citing Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 5th ser. i (1916), plate preceding p. 49).
There is no mention that John Norbury was ever knighted.
Perhaps there is confusion over Elizabeth's surname and who she actually married, and the arms in
Ashdown-Hill relate to John Norbury's second marriage?
Kind Regards,
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity [mailto:bat...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 4:36 AM
To: @rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph Boteler, Lord
Sudeley
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
You are quite correct. John Norbury was never knighted, although I see
such is claimed in several visitations.
Hicks' biography of him in Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991):
209-210 states the following:
"... He joined Henry IV before his formal accession and immediately
afterwards the new king appointed him Lord Treasurer, keeper of the
privy wardrobe, captain of Guines, and a permanent councilor... Yet the
man so honoured remained no more than an esquire. His case illustrates
in an extreme form the medieval king's right to seek advice where he
chose and to favour his servants over his greatest subjects.").
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Chris Phillips
Brad Verity wrote:
> The proof that Lord Sudeley's wife Elizabeth was daughter of Sir John
> Norbury seems to be through the coat of arms.
>
> Ashdown-Hill: "Elizabeth's Norbury arms can be clearly seen, impaled by
> the arms of Butler of Sudeley, on the Sudeley pedigree roll which was
> made in 1449 to celebrate Sir Thomas Butler's forthcoming marriage to
> Lady Eleanor Talbot. [footnote: New York City Library, Spencer MS.
> 193.]"
It's nice to see the evidence behind this identification. A few weeks ago
when I was speculating wildly to try to explain the reference to Elizabeth's
husband as "uncle" of Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William Beauchamp of
Powick, I wondered whether he could have been an "uncle by marriage",
through this Elizabeth being an aunt by blood.
I noted the identification of Elizabeth, Lady Sudeley, as a daughter of John
Norbury, put forward tentatively in the article by Jenny Stratford on John
Hende in the new DNB. Though there are dozens of references at the end of
that article, it would be a long job to work out where that suggestion came
from.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Actually it makes sense for Elizabeth, Lady Sudeley to be a daughter of
> Sir John Norbury, Treasurer of England. My research indicates that Sir
> John Norbury was originally from Cheshire. I note various online
> sources claim that Lady Sudeley's kinsman, Abbot John Wheathampstead,
> is the son of Hugh Bostock, of Wheathampstead, Hertfordshire. Hugh
> Bostock was also originally from Cheshire.
The new DNB also has an article by James G. Clark on John Wheathampstead,
which states that his father was Hugh Bostock, though it says he was from
the West Midlands. To my mind (as a son of Wolverhampton) that doesn't
stretch as far as Cheshire, though it's difficult to be sure.
Is it possible that John Wheathampstead's relationship with Elizabeth came
through his mother's family instead - and perhaps though the family of John
Norbury's wife? This seems to be Clark's view - he also knows of the
relationship, and says of Hugh Bostock's "marriage to Margaret
(c.1370-c.1420), daughter of Sir Thomas Makery ... This and other fortunate
marriages seem to have raised the Bostocks from the ranks of the lesser
gentry, so that in old age John could claim kinship with local nobles like
Elizabeth, Lady Sudeley".
Going back to John Hende, it's interesting that the DNB refers to his
"marble armorial monument in Holy Trinity Church, Bradwell", saying that it
was lost before 1768, but that fragments of armorial glass survive. I'd hope
that a noteworthy armorial monument would have been recorded by 1768, and it
would be interesting to know whether any clues to Elizabeth's identity have
been noted.
Chris Phillips