CP Correction: Helisant 'du Perche', wife of Matthew de Lovaine

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The...@aol.com

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Sep 6, 2006, 11:30:07 PM9/6/06
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Wednesday, 6 September, 2006


Hello All,

The account in Complete Peerage says of Matthew de Lovaine,
of Little Easton, Essex with regard to his first wife,

' He m., 1stly, on or before 31 May 1268, Helisant,
a kinswoman of Henry III, who gave 300 marks as her
marriage portion. ' [1]

While direct evidence of this relationship is wanting,
a solution to her identity, and her relationship to the
King of England, has now been found. The account in ES
concerning the Counts of Perche (as adapted on Genealogics)
shows that Thomas, Comte du Perche [k. at Lincoln, 20 May
1217] had issue, a son Thomas, who was born evidently on or
before 20 March 1214/5, on which date he was baptised at
Nogent-le-Rotrou, Perche.

Thomas, the father, was married to Helisende of Rethel
when he was slain at Lincoln in 1217. She was alive in
1224, by which date she had consented to 2 charters
of William, count of Perche (and bishop of Chalons) [2].
Her seal has also been identified on a charter dated 1231,
found in the archives of l'Yonne [3]. Born say 1193 at
the earliest, and no later than say 1200, she clearly was
not the 'Helisant' who married Matthew de Lovaine in 1268.

Thomas, the son, has been identified (or assumed) to
be illegitimate, probably due to the succession of William
(his great-uncle) as Count in 1217. Thomas was residing
in England by 1244, as he is found in London on 6 March
1243/4, marrying one Catherine Lesmayes [4]. This
marriage is shown as producing a son Joseph (or Joseph
Thomas). Given the proximity of Thomas' birth to the
death of his father, while still married to Helisende of
Rethel, it appears that he was the legitimate son of
Thomas and Helisende, and the father of Henry III's
kinswoman Helisant (or Helisende).

Thomas (de Perche) and his wife Catherine are the
best candidates noted to date to have produced a
daughter (and wife of Matthew de Lovaine) named Helisant.
Matthew de Lovaine was born before 26 Nov 1237; marrying
Helisant before 1 June 1268 when he was aged 30 or
younger, if she was born say 1244-1250 she would have
been aged say 18 to 24 in 1268. Joseph Thomas is shown
as marrying in 1272 [5], which is compatible with a
sister marrying in 1268.

The fact that King Henry III paid 300 marks for her
dower makes it evident that she was landless, or nearly
so. Given that Thomas, count of Perche was slain
fighting in the French army for Prince Louis in 1217,
and his young son Thomas was likely still in France at
the time, it seems quite unlikely that any English
lands of the Perche family would have been permitted to
be inherited by the younger Thomas.

Based on the foregoing, Helisant (wife of Matthew
de Lovaine) would have been a 1st cousin 3x removed of
King Henry III of England, as shown in the following
chart. This appears to be rather skewed, given the
number of 'removes', but this is a direct result of
Henry III being born to a 39-year old father (King
John) in 1207, by which date John's sister Matilda,
the deceased Duchess of Bavaria, had a grandson
(Thomas de Perche) aged 14.


Henry II = Eleanor of Aquitaine
____________I___________________________________
I IIII I
Matilda = Henry 'the Lion' <siblings> John
I D of Bavaria (and Saxony) K of England
___I__________________________ I
I IIII I
Matilda = Geoffrey III <siblings> HENRY III
I C of Perche
I 1191-1202
____I_____________
I I
I <A>
Geoffrey Thomas = 2) Helisende = Garnier de
dvp C of Perche I of Rethel I Trainel
1202-1217 I I d. ca. 1255
_____________________I _______I______
I I I
Thomas = Catherine Garnier V Helisende
b. Mar 1214/5 I Lesmaye Sire de = Henri
m. 6 Mar I Marigny d'Arzillieres
1243/4 I__________
_____I________
I I
Matthew de = 1) Helisant Thomas
Lovaine I m. bef 1 <Joseph?>
b. bef 26 Nov I Jun 1268
1237 I
I
I
Alianore de Lovaine


Followup posts will provide the details of the IPM of
Matthew de Lovaine (1302), and a detailed pedigree from
Matilda, duchess of Bavaria to Alianore de Lovaine. No
further evidence (including landholdings) have been noted
as of yet. Should anyone have additional relevant
documentation, comment or suggestions, please advise.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] CP VIII:180, and note (f).


[2] Debut de l'Histoirce de Mauves, cites charters granting
property to the abbey of la Trappe. URL:

http://mauves-huisne.com/components.php?component_name
=webportal&action=show_news&news_key=XII_revolution


[3] Vicomte de Souance et l'Abbe Ch. Metais, eds.,
Saint-Denis de Nogent-le-Rotrou, 1031-1789: Histoire
et Cartulaire (Vannes: Imprimerie et Librairie
LaFoyle, 1899), p. lxix. This source indicates that
Thomas had a first wife, Marguerite: she must have
died quite young, given that Thomas was aged about
24 (and married to Helisende) at the time he was
slain at Lincoln.


[4] Genealogics, I00330957 [cites ES III/4 689].


[5] Genealogics, I00330959 [cites ES III/4 689].


* John P. Ravilious

The...@aol.com

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Sep 7, 2006, 8:18:01 AM9/7/06
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Thursday, 7 September, 2006


Hello All,

Following is the promised 9 generation pedigree, tracing
the descent of Alianore de Lovaine and her grandchildren
from Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Cheers,

John *

1 Henry II 'Curtmantle' of England
----------------------------------------
Birth: 5 Mar 1132, Le Mans, Maine[1]
Death: 6 Jul 1189, Chinon, Touraine[1]
Burial: Fontevraud-L'Abbaye, Anjou
Occ: King of England 1154-1189
Father: Geoffrey 'Plantagenet' of Anjou (1113-1151)
Mother: Matilda of England (1102-1167)

Spouse: Eleanor of Aquitaine
Birth: abt 1122, Chateau de Belin-Beliet, Gironde[3]
Death: 31 Mar 1204, Fontevrault, Anjou[4]
Father: Guillaume X of Aquitaine (1099-1137)
Mother: Anor of Chatellerault (1103->1130)
Marr: 18 May 1152, Bordeaux[5]

Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England


1.1 Matilda of England
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef Jul 1156, London[6],[7]
Death: 28 Jun 1189, Brunswick[7]

born London, June 1156 or shortly before (Eyton p. 18[6])

2nd wife of Henry the Lion, Duke of Saxony (later
of Bavaria)

cf. ES I Tafel 18[7]

Spouse: Henry 'the Lion' of Bavaria
Birth: ca 1132[7]
Death: 6 Aug 1195[7]
Father: Henry, Duke of Bavaria (1108-1139)
Mother: Gertrude of Supplinburg
Marr: 1 Feb 1168[7]

Children: Matilda (1171-<1213)
Henry, Count Palatine of the Rhine (ca1174-1227)
Lothar (ca1175-1190)
Otto IV, King of Germany (ca1177-1218)
NN (1182-)
William, Duke of Brunswick (1184-1213)


1.1.1 Matilda of Bavaria
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1171[8]
Death: bef May 1213[9]
Occ: Countess of Perche

Countess of Perche

baptized as Richenza:
' Matilda was the eldest child of the marriage between Henry the
Lion, duke of Bavaria and Saxony and his second wife, Matilda,
eldest daughter of King Henry II of England, duke of Normandy
and count of Anjou. Like her mother, she might have been given
her paternal grandmother's name, but Henry the Lion already
had a daughter by his first marriage and his mother's name,
Gertrude, was borne by the daughter of that marriage. For his
new daughter Duke Henry looked further back in his family tree,
choosing Richenza, and she used this name until the family
came in exile to the Anglo-Norman realm in the 1180s19. From
then on Duke Henry's daughter used her mother's name, Matilda,
which was also that of her maternal great grandmother, the
Empress Matilda.'[8]

foundress of the priory of les Clairets (near Nogent-le-Rotrou),
1204

cf. Shadis, p. 190[9]
Thompson, pp. 69-88[8]

Spouse: Geoffrey III, Count of Perche
Death: Apr 1202[8],[10]
Father: Rotrou III, Count of Perche (-1191)
Mother: Maud of Blois
Marr: Jul 1189[8],[9]

Children: Geoffrey (dvp -<1202)
Thomas (ca1193-1217)


1.1.1.1a Thomas of Perche*
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1193[8]
Death: 20 May 1217, Battle of Lincoln[8]
Occ: Count of Perche

Count of Perche 1202-1217

confirmed the gifts of his mother 'to the nuns of le Clairets,
of the Cistercian order.'

supporter of Prince Louis of France, he fought for the Prince
in England;
slain in the Battle of Lincoln.

Thomas, count of Perche, was married to Helisende of Rethel

when he was slain at Lincoln in 1217. She was alive in
1224, by which date she had consented to 2 charters

of William, count of Perche (and bishop of Chalons).

Her seal has also been identified on a charter dated 1231,

found in the archives of l'Yonne.


cf. Shadis, p. 190[9]
Thompson, p. 70[8]
Genealogics I00330955[11] [cites ES III/4 689]


Debut de l'Histoirce de Mauves, cites charters granting
property to the abbey of la Trappe. URL:

http://mauves-huisne.com/components.php?component_name=webportal&action=show_news&news_key=XII_revolution

Vicomte de Souance et l'Abbe Ch. Metais, eds.,
Saint-Denis de Nogent-le-Rotrou, 1031-1789: Histoire
et Cartulaire (Vannes: Imprimerie et Librairie
LaFoyle, 1899), p. lxix. This source indicates that
Thomas had a first wife, Marguerite: she must have
died quite young, given that Thomas was aged about
24 (and married to Helisende) at the time he was
slain at Lincoln.

Spouse: Margaret [evidently, 1st wife]


1.1.1.1b Thomas of Perche* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Helisende de Rethel [2nd wife]
Father: Hugh II, Count of Rethel (-ca1227)
Mother: Felicite de Broyes

Children: Thomas (<1215-)


1.1.1.1b.1 Thomas du Perche
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 20 Mar 1215[11]
Bapt: 20 Mar 1215, Nogent-le-Rotrou[11]

cf. Genealogics I00330957[11] [cites ES III/4 689]

Thomas, the son, has been identified (or assumed) to

be illegitimate [11], probably due to the succession of William

(his great-uncle) as Count in 1217. Thomas was residing
in England by 1244, as he is found in London on 6 March

1243/4, marrying one Catherine Lesmayes. This

marriage is shown as producing a son Joseph (or Joseph
Thomas). Given the proximity of Thomas' birth to the
death of his father, while still married to Helisende of
Rethel, it appears that he was the legitimate son of
Thomas and Helisende, and the father of Henry III's
kinswoman Helisant (or Helisende).

Spouse: Catherine Lesmaye
Marr: 6 Mar 1243[11]

Children: Helisant
Joseph [Joseph Thomas ?]


1.1.1.1b.1.1 Helisant 'de Perche'[12]
----------------------------------------

'kinswoman of Henry III', as identified in account of her
husband Matthew de Lovaine:

' He m., 1stly, on or before 31 May 1268, Helisant,
a kinswoman of Henry III, who gave 300 marks as her

marriage portion. ' [CP VIII:180, and note (f).[13]]

re: her husband:
of Little Easton, Essex and Bildeston, Suffolk

steward of Eye[12]

IPM of Matthew de Lovayn, at Malton, co. Yorks. 9 June 1302
(writ dated Westminster 24 May 1302) [Yorks. Inqs. IV:18-19[14]]

Spouse: Matthew de Lovaine
Birth: bef 26 Nov 1237[13]
Death: bef 24 May 1302[14],[15]
Father: Matthew de Lovaine (-<1258)
Mother: Muriel (->1274)
Marr: bef 1 Jun 1268[13]

Children: Alianore (->1326)


1.1.1.1b.1.1.1a Alianore de Lovaine*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 3 May 1326[13]
Burial: Dunmow priory

given the manors of Stebbing and Woodham to hold in tenancy until
her dower was assigned, 20 January 1287/88.[13]
her dower included the manor of Frating, Essex [identified in
Inq.p.m. 28 Nov 1308] - CP V:342n[13]

she was abducted by Sir William Douglas before 28 January 1288/89
(married after fine of £100 assessed 18 February 1290/91)[13]
Sir William Douglas was mprisoned (for abducting Alianore de
Lovaine) at Leeds Castle - he was released 15 May 1290, and
his manor of Fawdon restored to him[13]

he was arrested for failure to give hostages in connection with
a pardon in July 1297, and committed to the Tower of London[13]:
order dated Oct. 12, 1297, Westminster:
' To Ralph de Sandwyco, constable of the Tower of London. Order
to receive William de Douglas, Thomas de Morham and John de
Fortore of Scotland, whom John de Warenna, earl of Surrey, will
deliver to him, and to cause them to be kept safely in the Tower
until otherwise ordered. ' [CCR (Edw. I, 1296-1302) IV:67[16]]


licence granted by King Edward I, dated at Kildrummy, Scotland,
9 Oct 1303:
' Licence for Eleanor, late the wife of William de Ferar[iis],
tenant in chief, to marry John de Wysham, king's yeoman, if she
so desires. ' [CPR 31 Edw. I, mem. 11, p. 161[17]]

by a fine dated 1313, William de Bagot (third husband) and
Alianore his wife conveyed tenements in co. Stafford to
themselves and heirs of their bodies, with remainder to
Archibald, son of Alianore (CP V:342n)[13]

m. lstly Sir William de Ferrers (his second wife)
2ndly Sir William Douglas ( his second wife)
3rdly Sir William Bagot

Spouse: Sir William de Ferrers, of Groby, co. Leics. [1st husband]
Birth: abt 1240[13]
Death: bef 20 Dec 1287[13]
Father: William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby (-<1254)
Mother: Margaret de Quincy (-<1280)

1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b Alianore de Lovaine* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Sir William de Douglas [2nd husband]
Death: bef 24 Jan 1298, Tower of London[13]
Birth: aft 24 Apr 1235[18]
Father: Sir William de Douglas (->1269)
Mother: Constance de Bataille
Marr: aft 18 Feb 1290[13]

Children: Archibald 'the Tyneman' (>1290-1333)
Hugh (>1294-)


1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1 Archibald 'the Tyneman' de Douglas
----------------------------------------
Death: 19 Jul 1333, Battle of Halidon Hill
Birth: aft 18 Feb 1290[13]
Occ: lord of Liddesdale

lord of Liddesdale

* parentage proven by fine dated 1313, William de Bagot
(his stepfather) and Alianore his wife conveyed tenements
in co. Stafford to themselves and heirs of their bodies,
with remainder to Archibald, son of Alianore. (CP V:342n)[13]

his English lands were forfeited:
grant dated at Gloucester, 20 June 1330:
' Grant, for life, at the request of Roger de Mortuo Mari,
earl of March, to Richard de Burgh of a messuage, a carucate
of land, 10 acres of wood, and 4s. in rent in Wylbrighton,
co. Stafford, which escheated to the late king by the
forfeiture of Archibald Duglas. By p.s. '
[ CPR 4 Edw III (1327-1330), mem. 13, p. 535[19]]

Spouse: Beatrix de Lindsay
Death: bef 6 Mar 1355[20],[21]
Father: Sir Alexander de Lindsay (>1258-)

Children: William (-1384)
Eleanora, m. 1) Alexander Bruce, E of Carrick
2) James Sandilands
3) Sir Patrick Hepburn
[possibly others]


1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1.1a William Douglas*
----------------------------------------
Death: May 1384[13]
Occ: Earl of Douglas

1st Earl of Douglas

fought in the French army at Poitiers, 19 Sept 1356[5]
[commander of the 1st division, with the Dauphin Charles]
injured in the cavalry charge on the English left, together
with Arnoul d'Audrehem [Sumption, pp. 238-9[22]]


" Sir William de Douglas, Earl of Mar, our cousin "
[ ' domino Willielmo de Douglas et de Marr consanguineo
nostro ' ], witness [together with John Stewart, Earl
of Carrick and his brother Robert Stewart of Fife and
Menteith, Sir James Lindsay, Sir Kentigern de Lindsay
and Sir Alexander de Lindsay ] to a charter of King
Robert II dated at Edinburgh, 10 Dec 1380 [Chart. Ayr
pp. xxxv-xxxvi[23]]

Spouse: Margaret of Mar
Death: aft 5 Dec 1389[13]
Father: Donald, Earl of Mar (-1332)
Mother: Isabel
Marr: bef 13 Nov 1357[13]

Children: James Douglas, Earl of Douglas(-1388)
Isabel, m. 1) Malcolm Drummond,
m. 2) Alexander Stewart, earl of Mar


1.1.1.1b.1.1.1b.1.1b William Douglas* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Associated with: Margaret Stewart, Countess of Angus
Father: Thomas Stewart, Earl of Angus (-1361)
Mother: Margaret Sinclair

Children: George Douglas, 1st Earl of Angus (-ca1402)


1.1.1.1b.1.1.1c Alianore de Lovaine* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Sir William Bagot [3rd husband]
Marr: aft 8 Apr 1305[17]

1. W. L. Warren, "Henry II," University of California Press, 1973,
[English Monarchs Series].
2. Rene de la Croix, duc de Castries, "The Lives of the Kings and
Queens of France," New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1979.
3. Christian Settipani, "Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe for Eleanor
of Aquitaine," 6 Sept 1998, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com,
rootsweb.com (rsponse to D.Spencer Hines, same subject, 2
Sept 1998.
4. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists," Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society,
1999, (2nd edition, 1999).
5. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
6. Robert William Eyton, "Court, Household, and Itinerary of King
Henry II," London: Taylor, 1878.
7. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
8. Kathleen Thompson, "Matilda, countess of the Perche
(1171-1210): the expression of authority in name, style and
seal," Tabularia e Etudes, no. 3, 2003, pp. 69-88, URL
http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/crahm/revue/tabularia/thompson.html
email Kathleen...@shu.ac.uk,
Honorary Research Fellow, University of Sheffield.
9. Miriam Shadis and Constance Hoffman Berman, "A Taste of
the Feast: Reconsidering Eleanor of Aquitaine's Female
Descendants," Bonnie Wheeler and John Carmi Parsons, eds.,
"Eleanor of Aquitaine: Lord and Lady," New York: Palgrave
Macmillan, 2002, Chapter 8 (pp. 177-211).
10. Adrian Channing, "Re: ROYAL BASTARDS/HENRY I," Sept 10, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Bradenstoke Cartulary, 655
[1144 x 1191] and 235 [1191 x 1202].
11. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com,
cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg.,
Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources.
13. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
14. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series), various
dates:, Vol. I (Record series vol. XII) - 1892, Vol.
II(Record series vol. XXIII) - 1898, Vol. III (Record series
vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV (Record series vol. XXXVII) - 1906.
15. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
16. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw I, vol. IV (1296-1302),
London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie
& Co., LD., 1906.
17. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office, Edward I. A.D. 1301-1307, London: for the Public
Record Office, 1898, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson,
Liechtenstein).
18. MichaelAnne Guido, "Ancestry of Beatrice, wife of Robert
Hauley - Part Two," 14 January 2005, email
Claud...@aol.com, cites Calendar of Documents pertaining
to Scotland preserved in her majestys public Record office,
London edited by Joseph Bain, Vol. I 1108-1272, #2047.
April 24, 1256; also #1420. Dec. 30, 1303.
19. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw III (1327-1330), London:
Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by Eyre and
Spottiswoode, 1896.
20. W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and C. Johnson, M.A., "Calendar of Entries
in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland,"
Papal Letters, Vol. III (A.D. 1342-1362), London: for the
Public Record Office, 1897, (reprinted 1971, Kraus-Thomson,
Liechtenstein).
21. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish
History Society, 1947.
22. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia:
University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999, Vol. II: Trial by Fire.
23. "Charters of the Royal Burgh of Ayr," Edinburgh: printed for
The Ayr and Wigton Archaeological Association, 1883.

WJho...@aol.com

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Sep 7, 2006, 5:16:25 PM9/7/06
to
In a message dated 9/7/06 5:18:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, The...@aol.com
writes:

<< Children: William (1153-<1156)
Henry (1155-1183), 'the Young King'
Matilda (<1156-1189)
Richard 'Coeur-de Lion' (1157-1199), King of England
Geoffrey (1158-1186), Duke of Brittany
Eleanor (1162-1214), m. Alfonso VIII of Castile
Joan (1165-1199), m. William of Sicily
John 'Lackland' (1167-1216), King of England >>

And "Philip" born 1163/4 died "as an infant"

WJho...@aol.com

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Sep 7, 2006, 5:19:14 PM9/7/06
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Hmmm actually I was going to smugly cite Thomas Costain "The Conquering
Century" but... he.. actually doesn't have this Philip so maybe I'm mistaken that
this person existed.

Will

John P. Ravilious

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Sep 7, 2006, 5:53:29 PM9/7/06
to
Dear Will,

Mr. Costain was quite an enjoyable writer - he certainly
helped feed my interest in the Angevin family in my youth.

However, I enjoy Dan Brown's writing as well: but, in neither
case would I use Costain or Brown as a source concerning any medieval
family (Plantagenet, Sinclair, or otherwise).

Cheers,

John

Peter Stewart

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Sep 7, 2006, 6:35:03 PM9/7/06
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Comments interspersed:

<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:3a8.33edd1...@aol.com...


> Wednesday, 6 September, 2006
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> The account in Complete Peerage says of Matthew de Lovaine,
> of Little Easton, Essex with regard to his first wife,
>
> ' He m., 1stly, on or before 31 May 1268, Helisant,
> a kinswoman of Henry III, who gave 300 marks as her
> marriage portion. ' [1]
>
> While direct evidence of this relationship is wanting,
> a solution to her identity, and her relationship to the
> King of England, has now been found. The account in ES
> concerning the Counts of Perche (as adapted on Genealogics)
> shows that Thomas, Comte du Perche [k. at Lincoln, 20 May
> 1217] had issue, a son Thomas, who was born evidently on or
> before 20 March 1214/5, on which date he was baptised at
> Nogent-le-Rotrou, Perche.

ES is not a safe guide for French genealogies, or to use as the departure
point for speculating about relationships without further context.

> Thomas, the father, was married to Helisende of Rethel
> when he was slain at Lincoln in 1217. She was alive in
> 1224, by which date she had consented to 2 charters
> of William, count of Perche (and bishop of Chalons) [2].
> Her seal has also been identified on a charter dated 1231,
> found in the archives of l'Yonne [3]. Born say 1193 at
> the earliest, and no later than say 1200, she clearly was
> not the 'Helisant' who married Matthew de Lovaine in 1268.

Certainly not, since she was dead by 1234.

> Thomas, the son, has been identified (or assumed) to
> be illegitimate, probably due to the succession of William
> (his great-uncle) as Count in 1217. Thomas was residing
> in England by 1244, as he is found in London on 6 March
> 1243/4, marrying one Catherine Lesmayes [4]. This
> marriage is shown as producing a son Joseph (or Joseph
> Thomas). Given the proximity of Thomas' birth to the
> death of his father, while still married to Helisende of
> Rethel, it appears that he was the legitimate son of
> Thomas and Helisende, and the father of Henry III's
> kinswoman Helisant (or Helisende).

Eh? Count Thomas was born ca 1194 and killed in May 1217: I fail to see any
rationale for deciding that a child of his was legitimate just because it
was born when he was around 20 years old. Is it even known that Count Thomas
was maried to Helisende of Rethel before the baptism of this younger Thomas
on 20 March 1215?

The deep trouble for this conjecture is the destiny of the Perche and its
countship - when Count Geoffrey III died in 1202 there was no question over
the recognition of his son Thomas, aged around 8, as his successor. When
this Count Thomas was killed in 1217, there was equally no question over the
succession of his great-uncle Guillaume, bishop of Chālons-sur-Marne. This
applied in France as well as in England with the bishop's rights to the
family's lands there. When he died in 1226, there was a significant problem
and dispute arose - but no-one ever mentioned the existence of a legitmate
son & heir of Count Thomas (died 1217). The claim was contested between
Blanche of Navarre, countess of Champagne (through her descent from Count
Geoffrey II) and Jacques, seigneur of Chāteau-Gontier (through his descent
from Count Rotrou III). There was no claim made for a Thomas aged 11 by
anyone, including Countess Helisende who was by then remarried to Garnier IV
de Traīnel, seigneur of Marigny. She was certainly not the mother of this
person.

Peter Stewart


WJho...@aol.com

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Sep 7, 2006, 6:57:48 PM9/7/06
to
In a message dated 9/7/06 3:29:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_s...@msn.com writes:

<< The deep trouble for this conjecture is the destiny of the Perche and its
countship - when Count Geoffrey III died in 1202 there was no question over
the recognition of his son Thomas, aged around 8, as his successor. >>

The conjecture that Helisent, wife of Matthew Louvain was kin to the King
doesn't necessarily rest on Thomas being legitimate does it?

Helisent, the conjectured gggranddaughter of Matilda (wife of Henry the Lion,
Duke of Saxony) would be related to the King through her Perche ancestry, not
her possibly spurious Rethel ancestry.

Will

Peter Stewart

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Sep 7, 2006, 7:05:52 PM9/7/06
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<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:239.a55918...@aol.com...

According to Andrew Lewis there was a son born 1160/1 or 1163/4 who died in
infancy, but as far as I know there is no warrant for naming him Philip -
see The Birth and Childhood of King John: Some Revisions, _Eleanor of
Aquitaine: Lord and Lady_, edited by John Carmi Parsons & Bonnie Wheeler
(New York & Basingstoke, 2002) p. 161 and n. 10.

Peter Stewart


mhol...@mac.com

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Sep 7, 2006, 8:09:08 PM9/7/06
to
Can you verify the wives of Matthew de Lovaine and which children are
by which wife. Wasn't his second wife NN de Blakenham? If so, how
could he be married thirdly to Helisant du Perche before 1 June 1268
when his son Sir Thomas de Lovaine was born in 1291. This doesn't jive
with previous posts by Doug Richardson or Rosie Bevan. Also see
Ancestral Roots, 8th edition, line 155A.

The...@aol.com wrote:
> Thursday, 7 September, 2006
>
>
SNIPPED.

Peter Stewart

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Sep 7, 2006, 9:33:14 PM9/7/06
to

The "conjecture" is not that Helesent wife of Matthew de Lovaine was a
kinswoman of the king, but that she can be identified as a
granddaughter of Helisende de Rethel. On the ill-founded argument put
forward, she can't.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Sep 7, 2006, 9:42:42 PM9/7/06
to

mhol...@mac.com wrote:
> Can you verify the wives of Matthew de Lovaine and which children are
> by which wife. Wasn't his second wife NN de Blakenham? If so, how
> could he be married thirdly to Helisant du Perche before 1 June 1268
> when his son Sir Thomas de Lovaine was born in 1291. This doesn't jive
> with previous posts by Doug Richardson or Rosie Bevan. Also see
> Ancestral Roots, 8th edition, line 155A.

By his first wife, Helesent of unknown family, Matthew de Lovaine had a
daughter Alianore, who married successively (1) William Ferrers, lord
of Groby (died before 20 December 1287); (2) William Douglas (died
before 24 January 1299); and (3) William Bagot, of Pateshull (died
before 3 May 1326).

Thomas de Lovaine was born to Matthew's second wife, a sister of Thomas
Blakenham.

Consequently the case from onomastics for Helesent's connection to the
family of Count Thomas of the Perche is without foundation.

Peter Stewart

WJho...@aol.com

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Sep 7, 2006, 10:09:25 PM9/7/06
to
In a message dated 9/7/06 6:44:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_s...@msn.com writes:

<< By his first wife, Helesent of unknown family, Matthew de Lovaine had a
daughter Alianore, who married successively (1) William Ferrers, lord
of Groby (died before 20 December 1287); (2) William Douglas (died
before 24 January 1299); and (3) William Bagot, of Pateshull (died
before 3 May 1326). >>

Alianore's first husband William was not just the 1st Baron Ferrers of Groby,
but also the son of the Earl of Derby, although a second (or later) son.

What did Alianore bring to this kind of match that made her an appropriate
wife for an Earl's son ?

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

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Sep 7, 2006, 10:21:57 PM9/7/06
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She was his second wife, and he already had a son & heir by his first.
I'm not sure what special qualities or qualifications Alianore de
Lovaine can have needed for such a marriage - her father was lord of
Little Easton and steward of Eye, her mother was evidently somehow a
kinswoman of King Henry III, just the kind of connections that second
sons of earls would often have made, I suppose. The notion that she
might have been the unrecognised heiress of the Perche and related of
the dukes of Bavaria and Brunswick is fanciful.

Peter Stewart

hallo...@aol.com

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Sep 9, 2006, 12:22:05 AM9/9/06
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Here is the discussion by Alison Weir on the topic of this possible son
in "Eleanor of Aquitaine" (pp 160-161)

[the context is that King Henry II is abroad in Poitiers during the
summer of 1161]
QUOTE
Eleanor had remained in Normandy. She was pregnant again, and at
Domfront Castle in September 1161, gave birth to her second daughter by
Henry, who was named Eleanor in her honour and baptised by Cardinal
Henry of Pisa; Robert of Torigni was her godfather. Three years had
elapsed since Eleanor's previous child had been born, and historians
have conjectured why, after bearing four children in as many years,
there was such a gap. It may have occurred because, having presented
Henry with three healthy sons in quick succession, Eleanor felt she
deserved a rest from childbearing. She may simply not have conceived.
Or, as several writers have suggested, she may have had a child whose
birth and early death were not recorded by the chroniclers.
John Speed, the English antiquarian whose "History of Great Britain"
was published in 1611, had access to sources now lost to us, and he
records that Henry and Eleanor had a son named Philip, who was born
between 1158 and 1162, but died young. Yet Francis Sandford, a
genealogist who at the end of the seventeenth century made a detailed
study of the royal line, does not mention him. It is possible that he
existed: mediaeval chroniclers did not always mention royal infants who
died young. Although William, Count of Poitiers, died at the age of
three, he was his father's first born heir and therefore worthy of
note, but a fifth son who died young might have been considered
relatively unimportant. However, the dates of birth of all Eleanor's
other children by Henry are recorded - even the birth of her last
child, John, who is usually accounted her fifth son. Moreover, the
name Philip was an unusual choice, favoured by the French royal line,
but never having been used by the forebears of Henry and Eleanor.
Neither, however, had the name John been used. The name Philip could,
of course, have been chosen as a compliment to Louis [King of France
and Eleanor's first husband], but surely his own name would have been
more appropriate. Since evidence for this prince's existence is found
only in much later sources and the circumstantial evidence is
inconclusive, none of it should be relied upon.
ENDQUOTE

Bruce Hallowell

Peter Stewart

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Sep 9, 2006, 1:25:32 AM9/9/06
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<hallo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1157775725.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...

> Here is the discussion by Alison Weir on the topic of this possible son
> in "Eleanor of Aquitaine" (pp 160-161)
>
> [the context is that King Henry II is abroad in Poitiers during the
> summer of 1161]
> QUOTE
> Eleanor had remained in Normandy. She was pregnant again, and at
> Domfront Castle in September 1161, gave birth to her second daughter by
> Henry, who was named Eleanor in her honour and baptised by Cardinal
> Henry of Pisa; Robert of Torigni was her godfather. Three years had
> elapsed since Eleanor's previous child had been born, and historians
> have conjectured why, after bearing four children in as many years,
> there was such a gap. It may have occurred because, having presented
> Henry with three healthy sons in quick succession, Eleanor felt she
> deserved a rest from childbearing. She may simply not have conceived.
> Or, as several writers have suggested, she may have had a child whose
> birth and early death were not recorded by the chroniclers.

Not quite. Needless to say, Andrew Lewis was not relying on Alison Weir or
on 17th-century accounts but on a contemporary source that as he noted was
well-placed to know about the matter. This is Ralph de Diceto, dean of St
Paul's, who recorded that Henry had six sons by Alienor of Aquitaine, two of
whom died in childhood ("Henricus rex Anglorum...ex legitimo matrimonio sex
filios sustulit...Ex filiis autem duobus in pueritia sublatis de medio").
The known sons were William, who died aged 3, and Henry, Richard, Geoffrey
and John who all survived to adulthood.

As I said, no warrant is given for naming the otherwise unknown son Philip,
yet the above is good evidence that such a child existed. (In dynastic
terms, the most likely names I suppose would be either Fulk from the Angevin
ancestry or Robert from the Norman - the only known Philip in this family
was a bastard in the next generation).

Lewis took "pueritia", meaning boyhood, to imply that this reference was not
to a twin who had died at birth or as an infant, but to a son born from a
separate pregnancy that could only have come to term in 1160/1 or 1163/4.

Peter Stewart


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