Walter de Grey, Archbishop of York and Chancellor
J.L.Fernandez Blanco
According to Walter's biography in Wikipedia (yes, I know...), he
would have been a son of John de Gray the Elder of Eaton in Norfolk
and nephew of John de Grey (the Younger), Bishop of Norwich. For this
statement they show as source: British History Online Archbishops of
York (http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=8457), which
says: "He was son of John and Hawisia de Grey of Rotherfield Greys,
Oxon (Pat. Rolls 1225-32 p. 454; see also Comp. Peer. VI 150-1 n.);
for his career, see Biog. Ox. II 807-8; DNB."
Then, for the uncle, John the Younger, they say he was was a younger
son of Robert de Gray of Rotherfield Greys in Oxfordshire (without
citation).
Has anything new surfaced about the parentage of Walter? AFAIR, until
not long ago nothing was known about this topic.
Thanks,
JL
John P. Ravilious
wrote:
--------------------
Dear JL,
I am not aware of any documentary evidence providing the name of
Walter de Grey's father. There is evidence that - whoever the
Archbishop's father was - he was not the lord of Rotherfield. Also,
it is almost certain his name was not (de) Grey, unless adopted
following his marriage.
There is record of a grant by King Henry III in which the
Archbishop's mother is named, and which also indicates that
Rotherfield came from Eva de Grey (relationship not stated) to the
Archbishop, who then granted it to his brother Robert. From the
Calendar of Charter Rolls, dated at Windsor, 9 Mar 1239/40:
' Grant to Hawise, mother of W. archbishop of York, that she and her
heirs and her men, and the men of her heirs, shall be quit of shires
and hundreds and suit of shires and hundreds, aids of sheriffs,
reeves, and bailiffs, of view of frank-pledge and of murder, all which
the king has also granted to Robert de Gray and his heirs for the land
of Rutherefeld, which the said archbishop had of the gift of Eve de
Gray, and gave to the said Robert.' [Cal. Charter Rolls, 11 Hen III,
p. 18, mem. 20]
As to the relationship of Walter de Grey to John de Grey, Bishop
of Norwich, it is certain that John de Grey was the Archbishop's
uncle. However, he was the _maternal_ uncle of the Archbishop, and
brother of Hawise de Grey. There was a charter of Hawise de Grey in
favour of Oseney abbey in which she explicitly identified her son
Robert and her brother the Bishop, and to which Archbishop Walter was
a witness:
' Hawisia de Grey vidua, pro animabus omnium antecessorum et
consanguineorum, et precipue pro anima Johannis de Grey fratris mei
quondam Norwicensis Episcopi, assensu Dni. Roberti de Grey filij et
heredis mei, concessi et quantum ad patronam pertinet dedi Deo et Sce.
Marie de Oseney et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus ecclesiam de
Cornewell ad donationem meam pertinentem in puram et perpetuam
eleemosinam. Testibus Dno. Waltero de Grey, Wygorniensi Episcopus
filio meo, &c.' [Blomefield, Norfok I:478, cites 'Mss. penes P. L.
Norroy, p. 15, excerpt. e Cartis per Ric. St. George.']
NN de Grey
_______I________
I I
Hawise de John de
Grey = NN Grey
I Bp of
I Norwich
I
______I______________
I I I
Robert Walter I
ld of Archbp I
Rotherfield I
I
__________________I
I I
Eva Agnes
= William = NN
'Brito' d'Oilly
Should anyone have additional or corrective documentation that
bears on these Grey matters, please advise.
Cheers,
John
John Watson
Hi John,
For what it's worth, here's what ODNB has to say about Walter's family
relationships:
"Gray, Walter de (d. 1255), archbishop of York, was the younger son of
John de Gray of Rotherfield Greys, Oxfordshire, and his wife, Hawisia.
His uncle, another John de Gray, was bishop of Norwich (1200–14), and
a favourite of King John. In the event Walter became the most
important member of an influential clerical family. His nephews, the
brothers Henry and Walter de Gray, were to be promoted by him to
canonries of York, and a third nephew, William de Langton of
Rotherfield Greys became first dean of York from about 1260 to 1279,
and then archbishop-elect, though papal opposition deprived him of the
see. Walter was also connected to the Giffards of Boyton, Wiltshire,
one of whom, Walter Giffard, brother of Godfrey, bishop of Worcester,
became bishop of Bath and Wells (1265–6) and subsequently archbishop
of York (1266–79)."
Roy Martin Haines, ‘Gray, Walter de (d. 1255)’, Oxford Dictionary of
National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004
Regards,
John
John P. Ravilious
>
> - Show quoted text -
-----------------
Dear John,
Thanks for that.
Given what the charter of Hawise de Grey to Oseney indicates, I
think the assignment of a John de Grey as father of Archbp Walter is
erroneous.
More likely - yet still short of documentation - I think that
John de Grey, bp of Norwich and his sister Hawise may have been
children of John de Grey and his wife Hawise (usually called Basset,
as yet undocumented). This would make Eve de Grey, wife of Ralph
Murdac, their sister; she would be an interesting candidate as the
grantor of Rotherfield, although the chronology needs a close look.
Cheers,
John
J.L.Fernandez Blanco
Thanks a lot! That's exactly the information I had, mainly that John
de Grey, bp of Norwich was Hawise's brother.
It sounds very interesting the possibility of Hawise and John the
bishop being children of John de Grey and Hawise (Basset ?). Maybe
some sort of solution to this conundrum will be found sooner or later.
Let's hope for that!
Thanks again,
JL
Douglas Richardson
newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John Watson
Hi John,
Looking through my notes I found this:
In 1086 Rotherfield Greys was held by Anketil de Grey under William
FitzOsbern (d. 1071). The mesne tenancy of Rotherfield Greys descended
presumably through Anketil's son Richard to his grandson Robert, who
held the manor in 1166 and who apparently died childless. Thereafter
the manor passed to Robert's nephew John (d. by 1192), his brother
Anketil's son. John's daughter and heir Eve married the royal judge
Ralph Murdac, who was lord in 1192 but whose lands were forfeited in
1194 for rebellion. Rotherfield Greys was restored to Eve and her
second husband, Andrew de Beauchamp, probably before 1200. Although
not without heirs, before 1240 and possibly as early as 1215 Eve gave
the manor to her kinsman Walter de Grey, archbishop of York, who
settled it on his brother Robert de Grey.
VCH Oxfordshire Texts in Progress (Rotherfield Greys) - Nov 06 - ©
University of London
Regards,
John
John Watson
Hi John,
From memory (which gets worse over the years). Robert de Grey, holder
of Rotherfield in 1166, had two or possibly three younger brothers,
Anketil (II), William and probably Thomas. I would think that the more
likely candidates for the father of John de Grey bishop of Norwich and
his sister Hawise are either William or Thomas. Hawise married a Mr.
somebody-or-other and had at least three children, Robert, Walter
(Abp. York) and Eve (married Wm. Brito). Her children took their
mother's name of de Grey - probably to stop the family name dying out
- her two sons, Robert and Walter being the only male heirs of Anketil
(I) de Grey who held Rotherfield at Domesday. Anketil (II)'s heir was
his granddaughter Eve, daughter of his son John, who married Ralph
Murdac. In this scenario - Robert and Walter de Grey would be the
first cousins of Eve Murdac.
Now if we could only work out who Mr. somebody-or-other was, the
picture would be complete.
Regards,
John
Nancy
The New England Historical and Genealogical Register, Volume 76. It starts on Page 295.
https://books.google.com/books?id=zyhAAAAAYAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&pg=PA298#v=onepage&q&f=false
Anschetil Grey had a son Richard.
Richard had a son Anschetil, who had a son John. John married Mabel. Their daughter Eve married first Ralph Murdac & had 2 daughters Alice and Beatrice. Eve married secondly Andrew Beauchamp. Eve & Andrew had a son John and 2 daughters Joan & Maud.
The above Richard also had a son Thomas. Thomas' sons were John Grey Bishop of Norwich & Unknown son who married Hawise. Mr. Unknown Grey & Hawise had two sons Walter Grey Archbishop of York & Robert.
Proof of John Grey's wife being Mabel-
In 1109 Henry I confirmed a grant to Eynsham abbey of the tithes of Dornford, Weaveley, and Cornwell by Anketil de Gray's son Richard. The mesne tenancy of Dornford remained in the Gray family, passing presumably to Richard's son Anketil and Anketil's son John; the Mabel de Gray who had dower of a third of Dornford in 1195 was probably John's widow. The manor passed to John's daughter Eve de Gray, who held it in 1242. She was dead by 1246 and her heirs through her first husband, Ralph Murdac (d. by 1196), were Beatrice, widow of Robert Mauduit, and Alice, wife of Ralph Hareng; through her second husband, Andrew de Beauchamp (to whom she was married by 1198), her heirs were Joan, wife of Ernald de Boys, and Maud de Neville, represented in 1246 by her son Jolland.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol11/pp259-285