Christopher Helme (or Elmes) of Warwick, R.I.
wjhonson
living in 1644, dead by Jul 1650, evidently died in Warwick, Rhode
Island, and had come to New England Jul 1637 arriving apparently in
Boston.
That's at least what I've picked out from various printed sources.
The argument about who his parents were and why, appears to be a bit
blundering. I wonder if there is anyone on this list, who purports to
descend from him, who would care to work with me, on a better and
fuller argument for or against his proposed parentage.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
proven some very interesting results for the Cecil project. In
addition finding some new Throckmorton and St John descendants.
And pinning a few elusive Elmes family members into very tight
chronological corners from which they cannot escape. It's seems
fairly apparent that the placement of Christopher Helme in the
position usually ascribed is false, and there were others who he could
be, but I'm still unsure which one he might be.
I do however see how the evidence could be found, if any descendant
were so inclined. I've also linked up several errant Elmes in my
database now that I've found evidence that they do belong to this
family.
Will
Nathaniel Taylor
<2537236c-d495-4f1d...@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
The identity of the New England man as the son of William Elme of Long
Sutton, Lincolnshire, who was baptized in 1603, is not now, I think, in
doubt. For many years he was thought to have been a son of William Elme
by his third wife, Priscilla Wentworth, though they were married only in
1619. This was before the Long Sutton parish register records had been
made available (they are now available extracted on the IGI). And
William Elme's own will was published in 1973, further clearing things
up: Margaret Helms Browning, "The Will of William Elme," _New England
Historical and Genealogical Register_ 127 (1973), 214-15. Made in 1648,
it refers to Christopher Elme as "my sonne by my first wife."
Or are you referring to another error in traditional ancestry given for
him (e.g. in Maddison's Lincolnshire pedigrees, of which vol. 1, with
Elmes, is not available online, and I don't seem to have a xerox handy)?
I am not a descendant so haven't searched further -- I came to this from
work on the Wentworth family.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
John
> In article
> <2537236c-d495-4f1d-b38a-678166a05...@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
Here's a full-view copy of vol. 1 of Maddison's Linoolnshire Pedigrees
on Google Books (watch the line wrap on the URL):
Even if items (like this) can't be found for some reason via a
straightforward search on Google Books, you can sometimes find them
(like now) by bringing up a similar title and looking at the details
of other editions.
John
>
> Even if items (like this) can't be found for some reason via a
> straightforward search on Google Books, you can sometimes find them
> (like now) by bringing up a similar title and looking at the details
> of other editions.
PS: All four volumes of Maddison are available in full view on Google
Books - if you look around a bit.
Nathaniel Taylor
<96560101-3ca9-4f46...@x3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
John <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Thanks! Got 'em. I remember looking back in 08, and I could for some
reason find only vols. 2 & 3. Maybe all four have been online since
then, but you can see how they're inconsistently titled & tagged now.
WJho...@aol.com
indexes to each family chart for the first three volumes already, it's on my
sources page. I'm now working my way through volume 4
Will
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
It would seem that a branch of the Long Sutton Elmes settled in Stamford
then moved to Henly-on-Thames as we have
"Elmes of Stamford
[“Visitation of Northamptonshire, 1564 and 1618,” p. 18, Ed. W. C.
Metcalfe.]
ARMS.-“Ermine, two bars sable, each charged with five elm-leaves or.”
Sir John Elmes of Henley-on-Thames, Knt., died 4 May 1491 = Elizabeth, dau
and heir of William Browne of Stamford by his wife Margaret; mar in 1457.
Will dated 11 April 1510; proved 17 May 1511.
left
William Elmes of Inner Temple and of Stamford, aet 26 in 1491. Will dated
22 March 1504/5.; proved 1504/5; mentions wife Elizabeth and her mother
Joan Ewerby. = Elizabeth, dau. and coheir of John Iwardby or Ewerby; born 24
Aug. 1475; proof of age 30 Oct. 1518. [any issue died out]
and
Margaret, died 1 Aug. 1471; bur. at Stamdord All Saints.
[I give this scap of a pedigree merely because of the connection of the
Elmes family with Stamford, and their descent from the Ewerbys.-A.R.M.]"
The Harleian Society; Vol 50 (1903); Lincolnshire Pedigrees edited by the
Rev Canon A R Maddison page 328
These Arms are the same as those Elmes of Long Sutton except they have
three elm-leaves.
Some details of William Browne:
William Browne (‑PCC Will 1489 pr 1489 bur All Siants, Stamford) of
Greetham manor, and in right of his wife Stocken manor, Stretton and other
estates; draper; Merchant of the Staple; Left funds to build Beadhouse, Stamford;
In 1435‑1470 six times Alderman of Stamford; In 1467, 1475, 1483, & 1486
Sheriff of Rutland; built church Steeple at All Saints; m Margaret (‑Will
1489 pr 1490 bur All Saints) d of John Stoke of Warmington, co Northt &
sis&ch of Thomas canon of York
The following shows Elizabeth Elmes holdings, then a widow, which she gifts
to her son;
Simcoe family of Devon; Title Deeds, Northants File Ref 1038 M/T/13/7
Deed of gift in tail
1. John Taillor, clerk and Henry Wykes, clerk
2. Elizabeth Elmes widow of John Elmes of Henley on Thames, Oxon.,
merchant of the 'Stapule calicie', and daughter and heiress of William Broun of
Stamford, Lincs., merchant of the same staple
Premises: manor of Swynsted, Lincs., manor of Wolsehouse, Rutland, manors
of Papley and Lilford, Northants., manor of Hogyngton, Cambs., also lands
and tenements in Swynsted, Wytham, Staunford, Brodyng, Bredcroft, Great and
Little Casterton, Lincs., Warmyngton, Papley, Ogerston, Pokbroke,
Artelyngborough, Lylford, Wyxsthorpp, Achirche, Pylton and Benefeld, Northants.,
and Hogyngton, Cambs., which 1. held with John Verney Knt., Guy Wolston Knt.,
Robert Harecourt Knt., Robert Brudewell and others by deed from 2.
The premises are to be held by 2. for life, and after her death by William
Elmes, son of Elizabeth, and his heirs. If William dies without heirs, the
premises remain to John, brother of William, and his heirs
Attornies: John Colston and John Holyngton
Witnesses: William Warner vicar of Lilford, William Cook of Oundell
merchant, Robert Beamond, William Baker, of Papley, Henry Elyss, William Aburn of
Lylford, Richard Mower of Wytham, Henry Watgott, John Webster, John Maxsey
of Swynsted, Robert Stelyngton
Date: 20 December, 15 Henry VII [1499]
PRO A2A; Devon Record Office: Simcoe
It is interesting to see Pokbroke (?=Polebrooke) in this list, and probably
indicates a link to the Brownes of of Stokin Hall, Stretton, Rutlandshire,
the first of whom I have is:
Nicholas Browne (-PCC Will pr 3 Jun 1608) Clerk; Of Polebrooke, Northants
and possibly previously of Herts; m Frances d of Thomas St John. She may
have m2 NN WEALES
Adrian
taylor_morgan
> Greetham manor, and in right of his wife Stocken manor, Stretton and other
> estates; draper; Merchant of the Staple; Left funds to build Beadhouse, Stamford;
> Sheriff of Rutland; built church Steeple at All Saints; m Margaret (-Will
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi everybody. I'm actually directly related to the late Christopher
Helme. I've been doing some research on him and his family, and I was
wondering if anyone has gotten any further than his father William
Elme...can we trace it back further to origins other than England?
Thank you all.
wjhonson
>
> Hi everybody. I'm actually directly related to the late Christopher
> Helme. I've been doing some research on him and his family, and I was
> wondering if anyone has gotten any further than his father William
> Elme...can we trace it back further to origins other than England?
> Thank you all.
Taylor do you mean by saying your are "directly related" to him, that
you descend from him?
There is something in this connection that nags me.
There is surviving a 1634 Lincolnshire visitation that as far as I can
tell has never been published.
There is a book published with *notes* about some of the families in
it, I suppose the author must have sat at the Heralds College library
(or whatever it's called) and thumbed through this massive tome.
We also have Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees, which I've now
finished extracting and he based it, in part, on that Visitation,
among other things.
However exactly what that visitation states is very important in
fixing Christopher in this family. I can't see that any of the
articles which have been written about him, make it clear that the
author has actually obtained a facsimile copy of that visitation page
(or pages).
If you are interested in helping to trace this line, perhaps that
should be your first goal. To get that. I'm not at all happy with
Maddison stating or implying that it shows Thomas as "first son" and
William as "second son" ! That seems very antagonistic to the theory
that this Christopher goes here.
One solution to that *might* be that the Visitation 1634 doesn't
actually state that. But as far as I can see, no one has stated
clearly that they are quoting it on this family.
Will Johnson
taylor_morgan
Yes, I am a decendant. Probably shouldn't have said "directly
related"...I'm not so good with the genealogical terms. I am assuming
you all are professionals? I am clearly an amature, and an American.
How do you suggest I begin by helping to trace the line? Everyone uses
different resources...any suggestions? What you previously wrote about
obtaining the Visitation pages puzzles me; I haven't the slightest
idea about any of it, or how to hunt down these documents. So sorry.
But I think it's great, what you all are trying to do. I hope you
succeed and please tell me how I can help. I will be checking up on
the discussion in my spare time,keep me in the loop! Best wishes,
---Taylor
wjhonson
Taylor here is an introduction to what I mean
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/guide/vis.shtml
Here's a list of those Visitations which I've been able to track down
online
http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/visitations-of-england/4hmquk6fx4gu/456
There was a Visitation of Lincolnshire 1634 and this family appears in
it. But as far as I can see, those pages where they appear have never
been published as they are. That's to what I referred when I
suggested how you might start. And actually do some original
contribution to confirming or destroying this linkage.
Will
taylor_morgan
>
> There was a Visitation of Lincolnshire 1634 and this family appears in
> it. But as far as I can see, those pages where they appear have never
> been published as they are. That's to what I referred when I
> suggested how you might start. And actually do some original
> contribution to confirming or destroying this linkage.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ok, I 'll start searching. Can't believe I didn't know what heralds or
visitations were...well I know now. Just one question: what is the
significance of tracing back this family? I will most likely be
looking for the pages over the weekend and will reply next week.