Graham Family History problem
Sam Sloan
I have been working for a long time trying to solve a problem
concerning my ancestry. Now, I may finally be making some progress.
My great-great-great-grandfather was Andrew Graham who arrived with
his father David Graham in Charleston, South Carolina on the ship
Pennsylvania Farmer on December 19, 1772. I have never been able to
find out anything about their Irish Origins.
There was a criminal case brought in Belfast Ireland in 1772 against a
man named Andrew Graham.
Andrew Graham is reported to have been born in "about 1753". A
researcher has pointed out that the IGI has an Andrew Grahams (note
spelling) born in 1755. This might be the same person.
However, the IGI says that his father was James Grahams and his mother
was Jane. The father of my Andrew Graham was David and his mother was
Janet.
Also, the IGI has a David Graham born in Templecorran, Antrim County,
Ireland in 1732 and who died on 09 JUN 1799 but does not say where he
died. His wife was Jane, who was born in Templecorran, Antrim County,
Ireland in 1730 and died 08 JUL 1817. They were married in about 1751.
That David Graham was the son of Mr. and Mrs. Brice Graham. This is by
no means a perfect match but close enough to raise the possibility
that this might be the same person. Brice Graham was born in 1695 and
died in December 1784.
The Public Record of Northern Ireland contains the Graham Papers.
http://proni.nics.gov.uk/records/private/graham.htm
"The Graham Papers (D/812, MIC/305 AND T/3263) The Graham papers
comprise c.4,700 documents and c.95 volumes, 1741, 1777 and 1791-1957,
and consist primarily of: title, deeds, leases, wills, accounts,
correspondence, etc, 1741, 1777 and 1791-1957, relating to Graham
property in and around Lisburn, Co. Antrim, and in Belfast."
Can anybody please look in these Graham papers and see if they can
identify David Graham or his son Andrew Graham?
There are doubts and questions about Andrew Graham. Everything about
him is doubtful, including his date of birth, the names and number of
the wives he had, and which children were by which wife,
The IGI lists a person named Andrew Grahams who was born 18 SEP 1755
Donaghmore, Tyrone, Ireland. His mother was Jane and his father was
James Grahams. In spite of the differences, this could be the same
person.
My great-great-great-grandfather was Andrew Graham who was born in
Ireland in "About 1753". His mother was Janet and his father was David
Graham. Andrew Grahams was born 18 SEP 1755 and his mother was Jane
and his father was James Grahams. In spite of the two years difference
in dates, the difference between Janet and Jane and the difference
between David Graham and James Grahams, there is enough similarity
that further checking is appropriate.
One possibility concerns the fact that my Andrew was the eldest of
eight children. When a man died it was customary for his brother to
marry the widow. So, it is possible that James died and David the next
brother married Jane or Janet. The fact that Andrew had a different
father from the others was just never mentioned.
A Graham family history is at
http://proni.nics.gov.uk/records/private/graham.htm
Any help or advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Sam Sloan
Dennis Ahern
: My great-great-great-grandfather was Andrew Graham who arrived with
: his father David Graham in Charleston, South Carolina on the ship
: Pennsylvania Farmer on December 19, 1772. I have never been able to
: find out anything about their Irish Origins.
See: http://www.zekes.com/~dspidell/famresearch/ulster.html
18th Century Scots-Irish Immigration
This, and other useful links, can be reached from the TIARA web site.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Dennis Ahern | The Irish Ancestral Research Association
Acton, Massachusetts | Dept. W, P.O. Box 619, Sudbury, MA 01776
ah...@world.std.com | http://www.tiara.ie
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Renia
the name. I have seen Grimes, Greames, Grames in Northern Ireland, so
the name might not descend from Graham at all.
Have you investigated the criminal case of 1772?
Your comments about second wives is irrelevant. Marrying the widow was
not customary in Ireland. If the baptism I gave you names the "wrong"
parents, that is because it is the wrong baptism.
As for looking in the Graham papers, it's not a case of a spot look-up.
Someone would have to take some time to examine these papers. You need
to pay a researcher for this.
Renia
Todd A. Farmerie
Mr. Sloan has again crossposted to an ungodly number of
newsgroups. Please, PLEASE trim crossposts if you are going to
respond to him. (Look, as long as people respond to him, he is
going to keep doing this.)
taf
Dennis Ahern
>There was a criminal case brought in Belfast Ireland in 1772 against a
>man named Andrew Graham.
The index to the Belfast News-Letter shows an Andrew Graham in a list of
persons named in relation to a rising or riot at Kilconway, county Antrim
reported on page 2 of the edition of 17 March 1772. There are several
other mentions of Graham, Andrew in the index, but this was the only one
for 1772.
See: http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/bnl/
Index to Belfast Newsletter 1737-1800
Sam Sloan
Thank you. I suspect that this is our boy. He joined in the American
Revolutionary War shortly after arriving in America.
On the ship passenger list for the Pennsylvania Farmer, this family is
all listed with the surname Grimbs. There are David, Jean, Matthew and
Andrew Grimbs.
See http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle/Rm/PaFarmer.htm
I have been wondering the reason for this. Perhaps they were running
from the law. In every other source, their last name was Graham, not
Grimbs.
Sam Sloan
Murchadh
wrote:
Sounds to me like some official said, "Who are you folk?" and one of
them replied, "We're the Grahams!" (Grimbs in the Ulster accent) and
the official wrote down what he heard.
This was a common way to have your name changed arbitrarily in North
America. I read of a Jewish family from Russia whose last name was
Chorniy (Black). The immigration official, who was of German origin
didn't understand their explanation of how to spell it (they were
telling him the Russian names for the Russian letters), but as the
official got more confused and the line-up got longer, an interpreter
told him to write down their name as Schwartz (German for Black).
The Grahams running from the law to Ulster and Holland usually changed
their name by spelling Graham backwards to give Maharg. There are
Mahargs who stayed in Ulster or emigrated to North America, but most
changed their names so they could sneak back into the Borders of
England and Scotland after James VI/I proscribed them and hunted them
down for reiving.
Interestingly, Graham is technically an English Border family, not
Scottish, but it hardly matters as the Border reivers would fight for
whichever country paid them the most and there was one battle where
the reivers changed sides three times as the bidding rose!
They offered to change for a fourth time if the money was upped, but
the commander they propositioned bitterly refused for he had no trust
left in them at this point. It was a poor decision - his force was
beaten, thanks to the sterling efforts of the reivers, whom I suppose
fought hard to create a precedent to encourage future commanders!
The same was true of the MacGregors, who were also a proscribed clan.
Many changed their names and that why in Scotland even today you'll
meet people called Lamont or Drummond wearing the MacGregor tartan.
Murchadh.
Josiah Jenkins
murc...@shaw.ca (Murchadh) :
>
>Sounds to me like some <US Immigration>official said, "Who
>are you folk?" and one of them replied, "We're the Grahams!"
>(Grimbs in the Ulster accent) and the official wrote down what he heard.
>
>This was a common way to have your name changed arbitrarily in North
>America. I read of a Jewish family from Russia whose last name was
>Chorniy (Black). The immigration official, who was of German origin
>didn't understand their explanation of how to spell it (they were telling
>him the Russian names for the Russian letters), but as the official got
>more confused and the line-up got longer, an interpreter told him to
>write down their name as Schwartz (German for Black).
Very true !!
Here's another example . . .
Los Angeles had a desert version of the Catskills called Murietta Hot
Springs with mud baths and water that smelled like rotten eggs. When
you would have a phone call it was a very big deal because it was long
distance and the clerk would call you on the loud speaker "Telephone
call for Abe Gitlin" etc. One day everyone was surprised by an
announcement: "Telphone call for Shane Ferguson", "Telphone call for
Shane Ferguson"
Several people went to the front desk to get a look at Shane Ferguson
and were even more curious when an old Jewish gentleman responded to
the paging.
After his call, one of the budinskies asked the man how he came to be
named Shane Ferguson. Shane replied that his name in the old country
was Mottle Rosenschwieg.
"My uncle, who was in America 10 years before me, told me to tell
immigration that my name was Morris Rose. I practiced saying my new
name for the entire trip on the boat. I asked the American sailors to
say it for me and learned to pronounce it. I was standing in line at
the immigration for two hours, worrying about everything, when the
officer finally asked me my name, I said, "schane fergessen"
(I forgot already)
So that's what the immigration man wrote down.
-- The Despicable Stewart
-- Perfidious Alban
-- http://www.ian-stewart.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Gordon Johnson
> Graham Family History problem
>
> I have been working for a long time trying to solve a problem
> concerning my ancestry. Now, I may finally be making some progress.
>
> My great-great-great-grandfather was Andrew Graham who arrived with
> his father David Graham in Charleston, South Carolina on the ship
> Pennsylvania Farmer on December 19, 1772. I have never been able to
> find out anything about their Irish Origins.
>
> There was a criminal case brought in Belfast Ireland in 1772 against a
> man named Andrew Graham.
>
> Andrew Graham is reported to have been born in "about 1753". A
> researcher has pointed out that the IGI has an Andrew Grahams (note
> spelling) born in 1755. This might be the same person.
>
> However, the IGI says that his father was James Grahams and his mother
> was Jane. The father of my Andrew Graham was David and his mother was
> Janet.
> Any help or advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Sam Sloan
*** Being born about 1753 does not neccessarily mean "in Ireland". As
Graham is a Scottish surname, you should check for an Andrew Graham born
in Scotland at the right time, with the right parents.
Secondly, if your Graham family was Roman Catholic, there is a good
chance that the records are not on the IGI/familysearch/etc. Check on
the family religious affiliation at the period.
Gordon Johnson.
Gordon Johnson
** In many of the 17th century records,and probably later too, as a
group such people are referred to as "Grahams" (even if only two
persons), and this can easily be misheard as "Grimbs".
Gordon Johnson.
Gordon Johnson
> The Grahams running from the law to Ulster and Holland usually changed
> their name by spelling Graham backwards to give Maharg. There are
> Mahargs who stayed in Ulster or emigrated to North America, but most
> changed their names so they could sneak back into the Borders of
> England and Scotland after James VI/I proscribed them and hunted them
> down for reiving.
** And he shipped many of them to Ireland when they were caught**
> Interestingly, Graham is technically an English Border family, not
> Scottish, but it hardly matters as the Border reivers would fight for
> whichever country paid them the most and there was one battle where
> the reivers changed sides three times as the bidding rose!
** No, the original govt. records of the period call them a Scottish
family,
though they indeed straddled the border, causing havoc on both sides.
And some of them made their way back from Ireland, BUT without changing
their surname at all.
There is also a Scottish surname McHarg, common in Carrick in the 15th
and 16th centuries, so some of these "Maharg" people could simply have
been McHargs. It is best to check ALL possibilities.
Gordon Johnson.
Murchadh
<scs-in...@pap.com> wrote:
>"My uncle, who was in America 10 years before me, told me to tell
>immigration that my name was Morris Rose. I practiced saying my new
>name for the entire trip on the boat. I asked the American sailors to
>say it for me and learned to pronounce it. I was standing in line at
>the immigration for two hours, worrying about everything, when the
>officer finally asked me my name, I said, "schane fergessen"
>(I forgot already)
>
>So that's what the immigration man wrote down.
>
>-- The Despicable Stewart
>-- Perfidious Alban
>-- http://www.ian-stewart.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Great story!
Murchadh.
allan connochie
"Gordon Johnson" <gor...@kinhelp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:10746001...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
They were one of the cross-border families like for instance the Halls. I
think you are both right though. They were thought to have been Scottish
originally but by the 16thC they seem to have been more numerous on the
English side. Certainly as far as the Borders go. Then again maybe the
English ones were more troublesome so are in the records more :-)
> And some of them made their way back from Ireland, BUT without changing
> their surname at all.
> There is also a Scottish surname McHarg, common in Carrick in the 15th
> and 16th centuries, so some of these "Maharg" people could simply have
> been McHargs. It is best to check ALL possibilities.
The Graham-McHarg thing is claimed in the Steel Bonnetts by McDonald Fraser
but I have read elsewhere [can't mind where so it's not much use right
enough] that it was just a myth. It would be interesting to know if there
were actually any such cases of name changing.
Allan
> Gordon Johnson.
>
Murchadh
From the Ulster-Scots Agency:
http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/borderreivers.asp
"The Grahams, among the worst offenders, were mercilessly hunted down.
To avoid detection, many changed their name by spelling it backwards:
hence we find a few Mahargs/Mehargs in Ulster today. The plan did not
entirely work, for George McDonald Fraser in his excellent book ‘The
Steel Bonnets’ points out that the most prevalent name in the Carlisle
phone directory after the Second World War was Graham - proving above
all else, perhaps, the resilience of the Borderer."
>The Graham-McHarg thing is claimed in the Steel Bonnetts by McDonald Fraser
>but I have read elsewhere [can't mind where so it's not much use right
>enough] that it was just a myth. It would be interesting to know if there
>were actually any such cases of name changing.
Well, there are plenty Mahargs around and I have spoken to few of them
to se if they knew where their name came from. Unbelievably, one
couple was unaware that the name was Graham spelled backwards (!) but
most said their families had changed their name in Ulster, usually tp
protect themselves from being had up for cattle stealing, which is an
accurate summary of what The Steel Bonnets and the Ulster-Scots Agency
claims.
Murchadh.
Murchadh
<gor...@kinhelp.co.uk> wrote:
>There is also a Scottish surname McHarg, common in Carrick in the 15th
>and 16th centuries, so some of these "Maharg" people could simply have
>been McHargs. It is best to check ALL possibilities.
>Gordon Johnson.
>
I have checked all possibilities and the time period is wrong for
McHargs being Maharg. There's a name MacHargue too, but both are so
obscure as to cast serious doubt on whether there were enough of them
to constitute a clan rather than being a single family. There are
quite a few cases of this in Easter Ross, with names like MacVanish
and MacGruer and of course where people were named after their
functions within a clan. Examples: Mac 'illenabrataich (Bannerman),
MacSporan (Treasurer) and Mac a'Gobhainn (Blacksmith)
MacHarg does however lend itself to some pleasant speculation about
alternative origins for the name. I like MacFhearg - Son of Fury. For
fun I tried it in Google and got the message, "Do you mean McHarg?"
Murchadh.
Allan Connochie
"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:400d62ac.2848445@news...
The point is though that in the Steel Bonnets it's claimed that Grahams
returning to their homeland had changed their name to Maharg to avoid the
authorities. This is an old well known story, but the question is where is
the evidence? You say there are plenty of Mahargs about. That may be so but
they are not in the old Borderland. I have the Scottish Borders phone book
and there are no Mahargs listed. I accessed the BT online directory and
there seem to be no Mahargs in either Langholm, Dumfries or most
significantly of all in Carlisle. If they changed their name to avoid being
detected on returning to their homeland then why are there no Mahargs about
in that said homeland? It doesn't really feel right somehow. I did find
four Mahargs in the on-line directory for Glasgow which of course isn't the
Borders. Black's "Surnames of Scotland" simply lists Maharg as a version of
McHarg. Again Grahams who stayed in Ireland or went on to America etc would
have had no need to disguise their name. It just doesn't make sense.
Besides it's obviously a myth that everyone of the name Graham was deported.
It must have been certain branches.
cheers
Allan
>
> Murchadh.
Sam Sloan
<gor...@kinhelp.co.uk> wrote:
>Secondly, if your Graham family was Roman Catholic, there is a good
>chance that the records are not on the IGI/familysearch/etc. Check on
>the family religious affiliation at the period.
>Gordon Johnson.
Thank you, but this possibility we can eliminate. My Graham ancestors
were definitely not Roman Catholic.
Sam Sloan
Sam Sloan
<gor...@kinhelp.co.uk> wrote:
>*** Being born about 1753 does not neccessarily mean "in Ireland". As
>Graham is a Scottish surname, you should check for an Andrew Graham born
>in Scotland at the right time, with the right parents.
Thank you for this very helpful and useful suggestion. I just did an
IGI search for everyone named David Graham born in about 1731 in the
British Isles (not just in Ireland) and I found 79 such persons.
Almost all of them were born in Scotland, just a few in Ireland, so I
will start searching there in the future.
Sam Sloan
Murchadh
So you figure it's a rural myth, to coin a phrase...
The only explanation I can think of for the lack of Mahargs - and it's
interesting how many Grahams live in Carlisle, despite that bloke
saying my original statement about them being an English family was
wrong - is that once the heat was off they changed their names back to
Graham. Not unreasonable - if you had changed your name to Eihconnoc
to avoid trouble, you'd probably be only too happy to change it back
once it was safe to do so!
It may simply be coincidence that Mahard is Graham spelled backwards,
but I have been taught to be deeply suspicious of coincidence,
especially as I had never heard the name McHarg until the other bloke
brought it up in this thread. Not that I'm an expert on Highland
names, but having been brought up in the Highlands, I assume I've
heard most of them. Who else but me knows about MacPhunn of Dripp, not
to mention MacVanish, MacGruer and - (hold it !) - MacLumpna!
I had a wander through the Maharg family trees and forums, but nobody
seems to have any concrete idea where their name comes from, other
than what we've discussed already.
Murchadh.
Allan Connochie
"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:400e943a.1799467@news...
Well no. I'm not so sure as that. I know it's an old story but I wonder if
there is any actual proof!
>
> The only explanation I can think of for the lack of Mahargs - and it's
> interesting how many Grahams live in Carlisle, despite that bloke
> saying my original statement about them being an English family was
> wrong - is that once the heat was off they changed their names back to
> Graham. Not unreasonable - if you had changed your name to Eihconnoc
> to avoid trouble, you'd probably be only too happy to change it back
> once it was safe to do so!
True but again this is supposition and why are there Mahargs outside of
Scotland and England where there was no heat on? Why did the Border Mahargs
'all' seem to change their name back again to Graham but not elsewhere?
Plus of course there simply is plenty of evidence of Grahams still in the
Borders in the years after the supposed mass expulsion. The folk who kept
on living outside the law [called Mosstroopers in the 17thC] were made up of
the original reiving names, in particular Armstrongs and Grahams. Why no
mention of Mahargs? Interestingly Watson in his book on the reivers claims,
though he gives no references for this, that the Clan had been previously
[he gives no dates] expelled from Scotland and fled to north-west England
where they took over Storey land. Another interesting story but like I say
he doesn't back this up with anything. Robson in his book "The English
Highland Clans" states that the Grahams were marginally more Scottish than
English, though most of what I've read suggests the other way round. I
think though that in reality in the 16thC a Graham would have been first and
foremost a Graham, and being Scottish or English would have come somewhat
down the importance scale :-)
>
> It may simply be coincidence that Mahard is Graham spelled backwards,
> but I have been taught to be deeply suspicious of coincidence,
> especially as I had never heard the name McHarg until the other bloke
> brought it up in this thread. Not that I'm an expert on Highland
> names, but having been brought up in the Highlands, I assume I've
> heard most of them. Who else but me knows about MacPhunn of Dripp, not
> to mention MacVanish, MacGruer and - (hold it !) - MacLumpna!
>
> I had a wander through the Maharg family trees and forums, but nobody
> seems to have any concrete idea where their name comes from, other
> than what we've discussed already.
Although McHarg was a Gaelic name it was not a Highland name. It's a
Lowland name from the Carrick and Galloway areas. Professor Black states it
was common as early as the 15th century. He gives several early references
for MacHarg, claiming that Maharg's earliest known use is in 1684. If that
date was correct then of coure it's much too late for returning Grahams.
Saying that just because he states Maharg is a version of this name I'm not
suggesting he is infallible.
cheers
Allan
>
>
>
> Murchadh.
Murchadh
<co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>
>"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:400e943a.1799467@news...
>>
>> The only explanation I can think of for the lack of Mahargs - and it's
>> interesting how many Grahams live in Carlisle, despite that bloke
>> saying my original statement about them being an English family was
>> wrong - is that once the heat was off they changed their names back to
>> Graham. Not unreasonable - if you had changed your name to Eihconnoc
>> to avoid trouble, you'd probably be only too happy to change it back
>> once it was safe to do so!
>
>True but again this is supposition and why are there Mahargs outside of
>Scotland and England where there was no heat on? Why did the Border Mahargs
>'all' seem to change their name back again to Graham but not elsewhere?
>Plus of course there simply is plenty of evidence of Grahams still in the
>Borders in the years after the supposed mass expulsion. The folk who kept
>on living outside the law [called Mosstroopers in the 17thC] were made up of
>the original reiving names, in particular Armstrongs and Grahams. Why no
>mention of Mahargs?
More tellingly, in the period we are talking about, when James was
actively cleaning up the Borders, there were many ballads composed but
not one that I know of mentions abyone called Maharg.
One could theorize that it was a name invented by a Graham to shield
his identity from his victims and that other Grahams took it up as a
sort of joke and as a way to terrify the local dissidents. But who
knows. It's interesting that the question exists, and as I said
earlier, it may even be a local example of a rural legend.
>Interestingly Watson in his book on the reivers claims,
>though he gives no references for this, that the Clan had been previously
>[he gives no dates] expelled from Scotland and fled to north-west England
>where they took over Storey land. Another interesting story but like I say
>he doesn't back this up with anything. Robson in his book "The English
>Highland Clans" states that the Grahams were marginally more Scottish than
>English, though most of what I've read suggests the other way round. I
>think though that in reality in the 16thC a Graham would have been first and
>foremost a Graham, and being Scottish or English would have come somewhat
>down the importance scale :-)
I agree. Borderers probably feel their Scottishness more keenly today,
but I think that being a Borderer would still come first.
Speaking of Grahams being more Scots or English and living en masse in
Carlisle, in the ballad, Hughie the Graeme, Lord Scrope (whose
descendant I met - Mr. Scrope - in the 1950s; they had no luck at
hanging onto lands or lordships) takes Hughie to Carlisle to be tried
and the judge is pretty blunt about what he'd do to any other Graemes
that came his way.
Then they hae grippit Hughie the Graeme,
And brought him up through Carlisle town;
The lasses and lads stood on the walls,
Crying, 'Hughie the Graeme, thou'se ne'er gae down!'
Then they hae chosen a jury of men,
The best that were in Carlisle town;
And twelve of them cried out at once,
'Hughie the Graeme, thou must gae down!'
Then up bespak him gude Lord Hume,
As he sat by the judge's knee, -
'Twenty white owsen, my gude lord,
If you'll grant Hughie the Graeme to me.'
'O no, O no, my gude Lord Hume!
Forsooth and sae it mauna be;
For, were there but three Graemes of the name,
They suld be hanged a' for me.'
'Twas up and spake the gude Lady Hume,
As she sate by the judge's knee, -
'A peck of white pennies, my gude lord judge,
If you'll grant Hughie the Graeme to me.'
'O no, O no, my gude Lady Hume!
Forsooth and sae it must na be;
Were he but one Graeme of the name,
He suld be hanged high for me.'
Hughie was duly hanged.
>Although McHarg was a Gaelic name it was not a Highland name. It's a
>Lowland name from the Carrick and Galloway areas. Professor Black states it
>was common as early as the 15th century. He gives several early references
>for MacHarg, claiming that Maharg's earliest known use is in 1684. If that
>date was correct then of coure it's much too late for returning Grahams.
>Saying that just because he states Maharg is a version of this name I'm not
>suggesting he is infallible.
No, I understand that some of Professor Black's references are
considered less than totally reliable.
That area, Galloway, is quite foreign to me. The only Gallowegians I
ever knew was a black-haired, swaggering, handsome lad called Willie
MacGregor who was fathering children faster than their mothers could
name them. The sort of man we all want to be yet pray will never meet
our daughters! The other was a Lamont, who like Willie also had black
hair, leading me to suppose that the area was dedicated to the Black
Irish or the Welsh!
Noo, let me gie ye a wheen bit Border Scots frae the eichteen hunnerts
tae tak a keek at and see dae ye ken whit it's aa aboot! Ah ken maist
o it, but his spellin's nae the Queen's Inglis!
"For aa that the sun, hoisin itsel i the lift owreheed, thraetent an
efter-heat that wad be fit ti muzz folk, the forenuin air was caller
an clear, an stoor was awanteen whan A tuik ti the lang road that rins
doon throwe Newtoon an bye the Dryburgh loaneen on ti Bosells Green.
"Everly, the road was thrang wui droves o nowt-aa keinds, untellin-kye
an tiups an keilies an yowes, mixty- maxty, rowtin an mehhin an
blehhin; doddies an starks an queys an stots an gimmers an hoggies an
grumphies an guissies-wui nurrin teikes snackin an yowfin an boochin
at ther cluits; bit fient a steekin bull ti yoke on ov a body, for the
bease war mensefih, an ilka herd hed a bleithe word i the byegangeen.
"Still an on, thir billies hed a sair hatter or they got the bruits
weerd bye the cairts an hurlbarrihs an yirrint-vans an thing, that
every-wee-bittie dunsht other i the strooshie. Faix, it was aa leike
thon killeen-hoose brae at Mainchester, thonder (div ee kenn'd?); bit
no a biggeen keind was there ti be seen, nor was there ony warden
polis ti redd oot the bizz wui skeely maig.
"Now, at lang last, the hinmaist doonfaa o the road brings ee oot
richt at Bosells Green, an there the road pairts i twae. The maist
feck o the hooses cooer coothy on the tae hand i the yeh straigglin
street o Bosells, croonin the braeheeds hich abuin Tweed an forenent
bieldy Dryburgh; an on the tother hand - the richt - the road wunds
aboot the Green an makes up the brae.
"A cood fain heh dwinglt, an daikert aboot in sleepery Bosells, bit A
fair durstna, or thance A micht never heh gotten off the bit aa day.
Bit afore A sterteet neice an cannie on the brae up atween the
planteens, A cruikeet ma hoach an clappeet masel doon a meenit on ov a
toggle bank, athort the Green, an luit ma een feast on the bonnie
gerssy haugh - that weel sorteet an taen sic grand care o. For Bosells
hes muckle mense o er Green!"
Murchadh.
Sally
I have an indirect cousin (by marriage) who was a Graham. How long his
family has been America, I do not know. But for whatever it is worth,
There are lots of Grahams throughout the US now! Sally
Sally
Following through on Border history - there are as many Grahams on one
side of the border as the other. After Solway Moss, it was the
Scottish Grahams who harried Oliver Sinclair's retreating army. He
himself was a prisoner. Those Graham's were in the Western March!
Sally
Hello Sam - in searching Andrew Graham - There are two Graham
families, both in Alabama and seem to have pretty well have stay
there. The trail goes completely cold with the entrance of the Mormon
Church baptisms. The last of the name, was born and raised in Utah,
shows his death in 1939. What I put up earlier is what is on line.
Does not seem likely that Andrew could have pronounced his last name
to sound like Grimbe instead of Graham - might have sounded like
Grahm. Think about it. Sally
Jim Stewart
"Sally" <esd...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:b8bcd929.04012...@posting.google.com...
They are, obviously, all southerners....
You know--Graham Crackers....
Jim Stewart
Murchadh
Oh ye rotten man!
Murchadh.
Rick
Yeah! That was pretty crumby, Jim...
rec.games.chess.politics? What the...uh. How ya'll doing?
Sleipnir the Pope
esd...@worldnet.att.net (Sally) wrote:
(I think this is the correct attribution, but I kind of lost track. My
apologies if it wasn't Sally who wrote this..)
>
> Following through on Border history - there are as many Grahams on one
> side of the border as the other. After Solway Moss, it was the
> Scottish Grahams who harried Oliver Sinclair's retreating army. He
> himself was a prisoner. Those Graham's were in the Western March!
The early history of the Grahams in the Western March and the Debateable
Land is given in detail by THB Graham in a series of publications in
"Transactions of the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and
Archaeological Society" [5,6,7,8]. Essentially, there were Grahams all
over the place, some in Scotland, some in England. Some of those around
the Esk were probably more recent arrivals (from Dumfriesshire) than
others. The pedigree of the Grahams of Esk, as given by Lord Burghley (and
reproduced in Bain's Border Papers), is reproduced by THB Graham in one of
these articles. I can't remember which, exactly. At any rate, he
effectively debunks the theory that the Grahams of Esk were descended from
the Earls (?) of Menteith, as Burke claims in his usual inaccurate way.
Apart from these general outlines, it seems to be difficult to trace
directly the ancestry of any particular Western March Graham, to determine
how long the family was in England (or Scotland). In the case of Hayton
and Edmond Castle [2,3,4], the existing parish records don't seem to
answer this question.
Of course, how much we believe THB Graham is another question entirely. He
was an eminent local antiquarian, that much we know, and well-respected in
his time. He doesn't always quote his sources, and sometimes claimed that
the information came from "documents in his possession". Not always
helpful.
James
(who just happens to be the great-grandson of THB Graham's sister, and
thus believes every word he writes. Ahem.)
[5] T.H.B. Graham, The Debateable Land, Transactions of the Cumberland and
Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XII, p. 33.
(1912)
[6] T.H.B. Graham, The Debatable Land Part II, Transactions of the
Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S.
XIV, p. 132. (1914)
[7] T.H.B. Graham, The Barony of Liddel and its Occupants, Transactions of
the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society,
N.S. XI, p. 55. (1911)
[8] T.H.B. Graham, The Grahams of Esk, Transactions of the Cumberland and
Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XXX, p. 224.
(1930)
[2] T.H.B. Graham, The Old Village of Edmond Castle, Transactions of the
Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S.
VIII, p. 13. (1908)
[3] T.H.B. Graham, The Parish of Hayton, Transactions of the Cumberland
and Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. VIII, p. 55.
(1908)
[4] T.H.B. Graham, Annals of Hayton, Transactions of the Cumberland and
Westmorland Antiquities and Archaeological Society, N.S. XXV, p. 311.
(1925)
Murchadh
>
>Following through on Border history - there are as many Grahams on one
>side of the border as the other. After Solway Moss, it was the
>Scottish Grahams who harried Oliver Sinclair's retreating army. He
>himself was a prisoner. Those Graham's were in the Western March!
It's an old story that political geography rarely takes note of ethnic
boundaries. As far as the Borderers were concerned, both the Scots and
English were prey to be looted whenever supplies ran low. Neither
country wanted to take responsibility for the reivers because it would
then became liable for the havoc they wreaked.
One has to feel sorry for the Scots in the central belt, because to
the south they had the reivers and to the north the Highlanders. Very
similar to Afghanistan, where Kabul has the Uzbeks and Turkmens to the
north and the Pashtoon to the south; each country suffering from the
same problems; raiders who feel no loyalty to the central authority.
Murchadh.
Renia
> In article <b8bcd929.0401...@posting.google.com>,
> esd...@worldnet.att.net (Sally) wrote:
> (I think this is the correct attribution, but I kind of lost track. My
> apologies if it wasn't Sally who wrote this..)
>
>>Following through on Border history - there are as many Grahams on one
>>side of the border as the other. After Solway Moss, it was the
>>Scottish Grahams who harried Oliver Sinclair's retreating army. He
>>himself was a prisoner. Those Graham's were in the Western March!
>
>
> The early history of the Grahams in the Western March and the Debateable
> Land is given in detail by THB Graham in a series of publications in
> "Transactions of the Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquities and
> Archaeological Society" [5,6,7,8].
Did any of these Grahams go to Ireland? I have a Graham ancestor in
Ireland so I'm quite interested. Viz, Charity Graham (dau of Robert of
Drogheda) who married John Chaloner in 1732.
Renia
Allan Connochie
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:burtqv$qjh$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
There was a forcible transportation of English Grahams to Roscommon in
Ireland in 1606. There are 124 people seemingly named on the list. Though
according to MacDonald Fraser in "The Steel Bonnets" they were met by those
of their own name suggesting that some had emigrated earlier. Many Scottish
Borderers of course went to Ulster during the 17thC and there must have been
Grahams amongst those too.
cheers
Allan
Allan Connochie
> murc...@shaw.ca (Murchadh) wrote in message
news:<400f34dc.2077427@news>...
> > On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:29:18 -0000, "Allan Connochie"
> > <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:400e943a.1799467@news...
> >
>
> side of the border as the other. After Solway Moss, it was the
> Scottish Grahams who harried Oliver Sinclair's retreating army. He
> himself was a prisoner. Those Graham's were in the Western March!
We of course don't have census records so it's hard to say but Robson in his
book is unusual in suggesting they were marginally more Scottish. I wonder
of he's including non-Border Grahams in those figures! Supposedly the
Grahams could put about 500 riders in the service of England. There
certainly were many Grahams on the Scottish side but I don't think they are
generally thought of as being quite so influential or numerous as their
English counterparts. Even in the Debateable Land they were more prevalent,
basically dominant, in what became the English bit. Again there were
Grahams north of the Scots Dyke but they lived among the much more numerous
Armstrongs. Saying that deciding who was Scottish and who was English could
well be difficult. They changed sides as it suited them and lived right on
a Border which had yet to be firmly drawn in places.
cheers
Allan
Allan Connochie
"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:400f34dc.2077427@news...
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:29:18 -0000, "Allan Connochie"
> <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:400e943a.1799467@news...
>
> actively cleaning up the Borders, there were many ballads composed but
> not one that I know of mentions abyone called Maharg.
>
> One could theorize that it was a name invented by a Graham to shield
> his identity from his victims and that other Grahams took it up as a
> sort of joke and as a way to terrify the local dissidents. But who
> knows. It's interesting that the question exists, and as I said
> earlier, it may even be a local example of a rural legend.
It is interesting I agree. Personally I find it hard to believe that the
Grahams would de so daft as use their own name backwards as a pseudonym.
The forces of King James were pretty ruthless and no doubt they weren't
stupid. Well I imagine that they weren't :-)
>
> Speaking of Grahams being more Scots or English and living en masse in
> Carlisle, in the ballad, Hughie the Graeme, Lord Scrope (whose
> descendant I met - Mr. Scrope - in the 1950s; they had no luck at
> hanging onto lands or lordships) takes Hughie to Carlisle to be tried
> and the judge is pretty blunt about what he'd do to any other Graemes
> that came his way.
That is true and I like that ballad. However there is more to the story
than meets the eye. As far as the events in the ballad can be dated it's
thought to have been around the 1540s when a Robert Aldridge was Bishop of
Carlisle and a Scrope was English West March Warden. So this was still when
the Grahams would have been useful to England as peace hadn't arrived yet.
They were not a persecuted people as yet. It's possible that later people
had put later feelings into the ballad but it also seems that much of it is
allegorical.
There is no actual historical record of the incident but there's nothing to
suggest it's not based on fact. Things in the poem make it appear Hughie's
in the right. The folk of Carlisle support him. The Lord and Lady Hume
[Hume was probably the most liked Scotsman in England being warden of the
relatively law abiding Scottish East March] speak up for him. However the
jury and prosecutors are adamant he must die - even if he is the last Graham
alive. No matter what anyone says he's going to die for stealing a horse!
Rather than this being because he's a Graham it's possibly because the
Bishop wanted rid of him. The Bishop by tradition was having an affair with
Hughie's wife. Again the theft of a single horse may be allegorical in that
he had taken a mare for a mare so to speak. At the end of the ballad he
turns to his wife
"Fare ye weel, Maggie my wife!
The last time we came owre the muir,
Twas thou bereft me of my life
And wi the Bishop thou play'd the whore"
In the last verse it shows the interesting cross border aspect of the
Grahams too. At the beggining of the ballad it's made clear that Hugh is an
Englishman when Scrope addresses him as a traitor thief. However his last
words are addressed to a fellow reiver who happens to be a Scot.
"Here Johnie Armstrang, take thou my sword
That is made o the metal sae fine.
And when thou comest to the English side,
Remember the death o Hughie the Graham"
The 1540s was too late for this to be the most famous reiver [ie Johnny
Armstrong of Gilnockie] so the names perhaps been inserted for effect, or it
may have been another Johnie Armstrang! John Marsden in his book suggests
it could be Jock o the Side who of course also has a ballad to his name.
> Noo, let me gie ye a wheen bit Border Scots frae the eichteen hunnerts
> tae tak a keek at and see dae ye ken whit it's aa aboot! Ah ken maist
> o it, but his spellin's nae the Queen's Inglis!
I'll have a bash.
>
> "For aa that the sun, hoisin itsel i the lift owreheed, thraetent an
> efter-heat that wad be fit ti muzz folk, the forenuin air was caller
> an clear, an stoor was awanteen whan A tuik ti the lang road that rins
> doon throwe Newtoon an bye the Dryburgh loaneen on ti Bosells Green.
For all that the sun, lifting itself up in the sky overhead, threatened to
muzzle folk, the forenoon air was fresh and clear, and dust was lacking when
I took the long road that runs down through Newtown and past the Dryburgh
track on to St Boswell's Green.
>
> "Everly, the road was thrang wui droves o nowt-aa keinds, untellin-kye
> an tiups an keilies an yowes, mixty- maxty, rowtin an mehhin an
> blehhin; doddies an starks an queys an stots an gimmers an hoggies an
> grumphies an guissies-wui nurrin teikes snackin an yowfin an boochin
> at ther cluits; bit fient a steekin bull ti yoke on ov a body, for the
> bease war mensefih, an ilka herd hed a bleithe word i the byegangeen.
Continually, the road was thronged with droves of beasts of all kinds.
Strange cattle and rams and ???? and ewes, all mixed up, bellowing and
mehhing and bleating, bullocks and heifers and young heifers and heifers and
bullocks and lambs and year old lambs and pigs and sows and snarling dogs
snapping and woofing and barking at their hooves; but no sign of a charging
bull to barge over anybody, for the beasts were calm, and every shepherd had
a friendly word on going by.
[I must admit I needed to go to a dictionary for most words between 'starks'
and 'guisses' with the exception of 'gimmers' and 'hoggies'. I don't know
if the various words describe ages etc or if the writer is just using
varying terms to describe a host of animals. It certainly works! Keilies I
was unsure of though it may be kylies [ie Highland cattle] though I couldn't
help imagining wee Glaswegians amongst the throng!]
>
> "Still an on, thir billies hed a sair hatter or they got the bruits
> weerd bye the cairts an hurlbarrihs an yirrint-vans an thing, that
> every-wee-bittie dunsht other i the strooshie. Faix, it was aa leike
> thon killeen-hoose brae at Mainchester, thonder (div ee kenn'd?); bit
> no a biggeen keind was there ti be seen, nor was there ony warden
> polis ti redd oot the bizz wui skeely maig.
Still they came, these lads had a right bother until they got the brutes
next to the carts and wheelbarrows and errand-vans and things, that every
now and again a beast banged into another one in the mayhem. Faith, it was
like that abbatoir on the hill at Manchester, that one there [do you know
it?]; but not a supervisor was there to be seen, nor was there any warden or
police to sort out the business in a heavy handed way.
>
> "Now, at lang last, the hinmaist doonfaa o the road brings ee oot
> richt at Bosells Green, an there the road pairts i twae. The maist
> feck o the hooses cooer coothy on the tae hand i the yeh straigglin
> street o Bosells, croonin the braeheeds hich abuin Tweed an forenent
> bieldy Dryburgh; an on the tother hand - the richt - the road wunds
> aboot the Green an makes up the brae.
Now at long last the final slope down of the road brings you out right at St
Boswell's Green, and there the road parts in two. The vast majority of the
houses hide snugly on the one hand in the one straggling street of St
Boswells, crowning the top of the slope high above Tweed and opposite
sheltered Dryburgh; and on the other hand - the right- the road winds about
the Green and makes up the slope.
>
> "A cood fain heh dwinglt, an daikert aboot in sleepery Bosells, bit A
> fair durstna, or thance A micht never heh gotten off the bit aa day.
> Bit afore A sterteet neice an cannie on the brae up atween the
> planteens, A cruikeet ma hoach an clappeet masel doon a meenit on ov a
> toggle bank, athort the Green, an luit ma een feast on the bonnie
> gerssy haugh - that weel sorteet an taen sic grand care o. For Bosells
> hes muckle mense o er Green!"
I could fondly have dawdled, and loafed about in sleepy St Boswells, but I
daren't not, or then I might never have gotten off the bit all day. But
before I started nice and slowly on the hill up between the gardens [I'm
guessing at gardens], I crooked my thigh round and sat myself down a minute
on top of a ???? banking, across from the Green, and let my eyes feast on
the bonnie grassy haugh - that well sorted and taken such great care off.
For St Boswells thinks a lot of her Green!"
cheers
Allan
Murchadh
<co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>
>"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:400f34dc.2077427@news...
Excellent translation! I have a feeling that the above is how an older
person would have spoken in those days; say your great or great-great
grandfather. I know from my own researches that WWI opened a huge
window of change in rural areas and complete dialects began to die
during this time, leaving behind dialect words interspersed with
standard or near-standard English.
In fact I've heard this myself in the speech of two Borderers I knew
here in Vancouver. One was an old lady, noe deceased, who used all the
words your granny would have; the other was a nurse in her thirties
whio had a Border accent but spoke English, lapsing into Border
dialect when talking to Scots like me who understand her localisms.
Here's more information:
http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/SESLL/STELLA/STARN/prose/COWAN/intro.htm
As you can see it's from a book c;alled
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mang Howes and Knowes"
A Day's Dander Throwe Border Waeter - Gates
BY HAWICK: (alias Elliot Cowan Smith, 1891 - 1917.
ALLAN WATT & Son, Printers, Station Buildings.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book with illustrations is set out at:
http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/SESLL/STELLA/STARN/prose/COWAN/cowan.htm
It's like a window into another world, isn't it? He's a fit man; he
gangs bei Jethart and Denum, aa the wey tae Haiick!
Murchadh.
Allan Connochie
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:25:24 -0000, "Allan Connochie"
> <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Murchadh" <murc...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:400f34dc.2077427@news...
>
> person would have spoken in those days; say your great or great-great
> grandfather. I know from my own researches that WWI opened a huge
> window of change in rural areas and complete dialects began to die
> during this time, leaving behind dialect words interspersed with
> standard or near-standard English.
The onset of mass communication [ie Radio etc] would have affected how folk
spoke, but so did the Education Act of the 1880s [can't remember the exact
date] which gave the educational establishment further encouragement to try
and stamp out what many regarded as rude uncouth bad English. Although many
Borderers [young and old] still use the full range of the dialect. It's
changed a bit of course as all language does. Pronounciation I can imagine
is much the same - for instance my grand-father pronounced things in much
the same way that I do excepting perhaps the 'ch' sound and the 'it' endings
in words like 'skelpit' was more pronounced. He'd say skelpit where I'd say
skelpt. I'd actually use much the same grammar as he would. The biggest
change would be in the loss of word stock. There are some words that my
grand-father would use that I'll only use occassionally. The passage you
quoted had some words I'd never seen but apart from one or two exceptions
they were all farming terms. Still there is no doubt that many Scots words
have fallen out of use. Unfortunately the last serious study of the Borders
dialect, and possibly the Scots langauge as a whole, was in the 1949
Linguistic Survey of Scotland so it's hard to know just exactly how intact
the dialect still is.
>
> In fact I've heard this myself in the speech of two Borderers I knew
> here in Vancouver. One was an old lady, noe deceased, who used all the
> words your granny would have; the other was a nurse in her thirties
> whio had a Border accent but spoke English, lapsing into Border
> dialect when talking to Scots like me who understand her localisms.
I understand what you're saying and overall you are correct, the breadth of
the dialect is being eroded each generation, but such variations exist
within the age groups themselves. I know some pensioners who would baulk at
using the dialect except for comic effect, and I know young folk who still
speak what could only be described as Border Scots. Still I do think that
Scots is far more endangered than official statistics suggest. The
government estimate that there are one and a half million Scots speakers,
but this was simply based on a survey which asked people if they could speak
any Scots. It takes no account of what was meant by Scots and just how
anglicised the speech is. The 1949 study questioned people on their
grammar, pronounciation and the words they used.
> It's like a window into another world, isn't it? He's a fit man; he
> gangs bei Jethart and Denum, aa the wey tae Haiick!
When I was in my teens we used to take a walk on a Saturday morning as there
were no record shops in Jedburgh, and damn few clothes shops bar David
Thomsons. We'd go up over the Dunion to Denholm and stop off at the Cross
Keys for a pre-lunch pint, then from there either carry on to Hawick, catch
the mid-day bus, or just get pissed in Denholm. Actually before that as a
kid we used to walk from Selkirk to Gala and back [6 or 7 miles each way]
just to go to the swimming pool as Selkirk didn't have one at the time. My
father had brothers in Gala and regularly walked back and forth. He was [eh
still is actually] quite a dishevelled character and was picked up by the
police one day as someone had reported to them that they'd seen Bible John
on the run :-) Anyway you should hear my kids moan if we decide to walk
down into Kelso rather than take the car, and it's only about a mile into
the square.
cheers
Allan
>
> Murchadh.
