Alice Freeman

[cynthia.ann...@gmail.com]

I've been lurking on and off and wonder if there is anything new on the ancestry of Alice Freeman of Preston Capes and later New London CT, wife of John Thompson and later Robert Parke. Seems she had royal lines, then she didn't, then she did, then she didn't again.
Are any of her lines still valid?
I have the RD600 published in 2004 that takes her back to Ethelred II but in that same book there's a line from among others John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney that goes back to Louis IV of France.
It appears that Alice Freeman has John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney in her direct ancestry too, so does the line from her back to Louis IV King of France work as well?
And if she has any lines that are valid back to royalty, might anyone who knows what they are doing suggest some reasonably available sources to document the line? RD600 is great for seeing the whole line, but not so great when it comes to dates and sources.
Thank you for any direction regarding Alice Freeman's ancestry.

[D. Spencer Hines]

Well, has anyone read this piece?

[Randy A. West, "Alice Freeman, Wife of John Tompson of Preston Capes,
Northamptonshire, and of Robert Parke of Connecticut," The American
Genealogist 87 (Jan/Apr (publ Oct) 2015): 209-217.]

DSH

"A vaincre sans peril, on triomphe sans gloire." -- Pierre Corneille
[1606-1684]

wrote in message
news:5692bbfe-e278-48a0...@googlegroups.com...

[Joe]

I have read the two articles by Randy West. They do not extend (nor were they intended to) the ancestry of Alice Freeman. The primary focus is to publish the IPM of her father Henry Freeman which helps establishing some dates. He died 5 August 1606; IPM held 14 October 1606; son and heir Thomas Freeman aged 13 years and 2 months; wife Margaret living.

The article also publishes the will of her brother Thomas Freeman of Cranford which mentions most all of his relatives including “children of my sister Tompson namely Samuel Nathaniel Mary Bridget Dorothy and Martha,” “to Thomas Tompson my sisters son,” “my kinsman Robert Peake,” “my mother Margaret Freeman” Will dated and proved 14 August and 23 August 1637.

It also gives a complete transcript of the will of Alice Freeman’s first husband John Tompson. Previous published copies had been relatively brief abstracts.

It also provides the baptisms of Martha and Samuel Tompson missed by the original researchers, and establishes the name of one more previously unrecognized daughter – Margaret Tompson, wife of Robert Peake.

The second article: The American Genealogist vol. 87 no. 3 (July/October 2014 - pub. July 2015):204-208. The English Origin of Christopher Peake1 of Roxbury, Massachusetts, by Randy A. West. concerns Robert Peake and his wife Margaret Tompson (previously unknown daughter of Alice Freeman and John Tompson.)

Despite a very long English ancestry, I do not think she has a valid royal line before Charlemagne (I haven't actually checked in a while though).

Joe

[D. Spencer Hines]

Thank You!

DSH

"A vaincre sans peril, on triomphe sans gloire." -- Pierre Corneille
[1606-1684]

"Joe" wrote in message
news:9a8c3c7f-5c91-40a1...@googlegroups.com...

I have read the two articles by Randy West. They do not extend (nor were
they intended to) the ancestry of Alice Freeman. The primary focus is to
publish the IPM of her father Henry Freeman which helps establishing some
dates. He died 5 August 1606; IPM held 14 October 1606; son and heir Thomas
Freeman aged 13 years and 2 months; wife Margaret living.

The article also publishes the will of her brother Thomas Freeman of
Cranford which mentions most all of his relatives including "children of my
sister Tompson namely Samuel Nathaniel Mary Bridget Dorothy and Martha," "to
Thomas Tompson my sisters son," "my kinsman Robert Peake," "my mother
Margaret Freeman" Will dated and proved 14 August and 23 August 1637.

It also gives a complete transcript of the will of Alice Freeman's first
husband John Tompson. Previous published copies had been relatively brief
abstracts.

It also provides the baptisms of Martha and Samuel Tompson missed by the
original researchers, and establishes the name of one more previously

unrecognized daughter - Margaret Tompson, wife of Robert Peake.

[cynthia.ann...@gmail.com]

If Alice Freeman does still have a valid line to Charlemagne, would someone post it or point me in the right direction? Thanks.

[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]

As far as I've been able to tell, it's Alice Freeman's supposed
Carolingian ancestry that's been proven, unproven, reproven, and (most
recently) unproven again. Her descent from Aethelred II "Ill-counseled"
seems to be on reasonably firm ground. Below is what I have from what
seem to me like decent secondary sources -- if anything seems dodgy, or
has been more recently disproven, please point it out.


Sources:
(1) The Henry Project
(2) Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
(3) Complete Peerage
(4) G. Andrews Moriarty, "The Royal Descent of a New England Settler."
NEHGR 79:358, 1925.
(5) G. Andrews Moriarty, "The Morteyns of Marston and Tillsworth." TAG
38:194, 1922.
(6) G. Andrews Moriarty, "Genealogical Research in England." NEHGR
74:231, 74:267, 1920; 75:57, 75:129, 1921.
(7) Robert L. Steenrod, "Alice (Freeman) (Tompson) Parke." TAG 29:215, 1953.
(8) Randy A. West, "Alice Freeman, Wife of John Tompson of Preston
Capes, Northamptonshire, and of Robert Parke of Connecticut: New
Information on Her Parents, Siblings, Children, and First Husband." TAG
87:209, January-April 2015.


Aethelred II "Unraed", king of England, b. abt 968 (1), d. 23 Apr 1016,
London (1); m. a woman possibly named Aelfgifu (1)

Aelfgifu, daughter of Aethelred II & Aelfgifu (1), m. Uhtred, earl of
Northumbria (1), who d. 1016 (1)

Ealdgyth, daughter of Uhtred & Aelfgifu (1) (2), m. Maldred (1) (2)

Gospatric, earl of Northumbria, son of Maldred & Ealdgyth (2), b. bet.
1040 and 1048 (3), d. bet. 1073 and 1075 (2), wife unknown

Gospatric, earl of Lothian, son of Gospatric (2), d. prob. in the
Battle of the Standard, 22 Aug 1138 (2), wife unknown

Juliana, daughter of the second Gospatric (2), m. Ranulph de Merlay (2)
of Morpeth, Northumberland (2)

Roger de Merlay, son of Ranulph & Juliana (4), d. 1188 (4), m. Alice de
Stuteville (4)

Agnes de Merlay, daughter of Roger & Alice (4), m. Richard Gobion (4),
who d. bef. 27 Dec 1230, prob. in Gascony (4)

Hugh Gobion, son of Richard & Agnes (4), d. 1275 (4), m. Matilda (4)

Joan Gobion, daughter of Hugh & Matilda (4), d. aft 1312 (5), m. John
de Morteyn (4) who d. 1296 (4) (5)

John de Morteyn, son of John & Joan (4), of Merston, Bedfordshire (4)
(5), d. 1346 (4), m. Joan de Rothwell (4)

Lucy de Morteyn, daughter of John & Joan (4) (5), m. John Giffard (4)
who was of Twyford, Buckinghamshire (4)

Thomas Giffard, son of John & Lucy (4), b. about 1345 (4) (6), of
Twyford, Buckinghamshire (4) (6), d. 25 Sep 1394 (6), m. ab. 1361 (6)
Elizabeth de Missenden (5) (6) who d. 1367 (6)

Roger Giffard, son of Thomas & Elizabeth (6), b. abt 1367 (6), of
Twyford, Buckinghamshire (6), d. 14 Apr 1409 (6), m. bef. 1408 (6)
Isabel Stretley (6) who was prob. of Stretley, Buckinghamshire (6)

Thomas Giffard, son of Roger & Isabel (6), b. 1408, Fringford,
Oxfordshire (6), d. 29 May 1469 (6), m. Eleanor Vaux (6)

John Giffard, son of Thomas & Eleanor (6), b. abt. 1431 (6), of
Twyford, Buckinghamshire (6), d. bef. 23 Sep 1506 (6), m. Agnes Wynslow
(6)

Thomas Giffard, son of John & Agnes (6), of Twyford, Buckinghamshire
(6), d. 10 Oct 1511 (6), m. Jane Langston (6)

Amy (or Anna) Giffard, daughter of Thomas & Jane (6), b. bet. 1485 and
1490 (7), m. bef. 1511 (6) (7) Richard Samwell (6) (7), who was of
Edgecote, Northamptonshire (6) and who d. 3 May 1519 (7)

Susanna Samwell, daughter of Richard & Amy (7), m. in or aft. 1535 (7)
Peter Edwards (7) who was of Peterborough, Northamptonshire (7)

Edward Edwards, son of Peter & Susanna (7), b. abt 1537 (7), d. 1592
(7), m. Ursula Coles (7) who was bur. 2 Feb 1606, Awalton,
Huntingdonshire (7)

Margaret Edwards, daughter of Edward & Ursula (7) (8), b. abt. 1570
(8), d. aft. 23 Aug 1637 (8), m. (7) abt. 1591 (8) Henry Freeman (8)
who was b. abt. 1566 (8) and who d. 5 Aug 1606, prob. Cranford St.
John, Northamptonshire (8)

Alice Freeman, later Tompson, later Parke, daughter of Henry &
Margaret, (7) (8), b. abt. 1595 (8), d. aft. 24 Dec 1658, prob. New
London or Stonington, Connecticut (8)

--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
about.me/patricknh
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/index.php

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 11:04:43 AM UTC-4, Patrick Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> As far as I've been able to tell, it's Alice Freeman's supposed
> Carolingian ancestry that's been proven, unproven, reproven, and (most
> recently) unproven again. Her descent from Aethelred II "Ill-counseled"
> seems to be on reasonably firm ground.

This is my understanding as well. The ahnentafel I have for this fine fellow:

> John Giffard, son of Thomas & Eleanor (6), b. abt. 1431 (6), of
> Twyford, Buckinghamshire (6), d. bef. 23 Sep 1506 (6), m. Agnes Wynslow
> (6)

is this:
1. John Giffard, born Abt. 1431 of Twyford,Busks, England; died Bef September 23, 1506 in England. He married (1) Agnes Winslowe. She was born Abt. 1439 in England.
2. Thomas Giffard, born Bef. December 29, 1408 in Fringford, Oxford, England; died May 29, 1469 in England. He was the son of 4. Roger Giffard and 5. Isabel Stretele. He married 3. Eleanor Vaux Abt. 1430.
3. Eleanor Vaux, born Abt. 1410 in Twyford,Bucks, England. She was the daughter of 6. William Thomas Vaux and 7. Eleanor Drakelowe.
4. Roger Giffard, born Abt. 1367 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died April 14, 1409 in Bucks, England. He was the son of 8. Thomas Giffard and 9. Elizabeth de Missenden. He married 5. Isabel Stretele Bef. 1407 in England.
5. Isabel Stretele
6. William Thomas Vaux, born Abt. 1375 in Harrowden, Northamptonshire, England; died 1405 in England. He was the son of 12. William de Vaux and 13. Joan Thirning. He married 7. Eleanor Drakelowe Abt. 1398.
7. Eleanor Drakelowe
8. Thomas Giffard, born Abt. 1345 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died September 25, 1394 in Bucks, England. He was the son of 16. John Giffard and 17. Lucy de Morteyn. He married 9. Elizabeth de Missenden Abt. 1361.
9. Elizabeth de Missenden, died Abt. 1367.
12. William de Vaux He was the son of 24. William de Vaux and 25. Joan ?. He married 13. Joan Thirning.
13. Joan Thirning
16. John Giffard, born 1301 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died January 25, 1368/69 in England. He was the son of 32. John Giffard and 33. Alexandra de Gardinis. He married 17. Lucy de Morteyn.
17. Lucy de Morteyn, born Abt. 1305 in Tillsworth, Bedfordshire, England; died Aft. March 08, 1360/61 in England. She was the daughter of 34. John de Morteyn and 35. Joan De Rothwell.
24. William de Vaux, died Bef. 1373. He married 25. Joan ?.
25. Joan ?
32. John Giffard, born Abt. 1270 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died Aft. March 30, 1328. He was the son of 64. John Giffard. He married 33. Alexandra de Gardinis Abt. 1301.
33. Alexandra de Gardinis, born Abt. 1275 in Oxford, England; died Bef. 1328 in England. She was the daughter of 66. Thomas de Gardinis.
34. John de Morteyn, born Abt. 1274 in Tillsworth, England; died 1346. He was the son of 68. John de Morteyn and 69. Joan Gobion. He married 35. Joan De Rothwell 1304 in England.
35. Joan De Rothwell, born Abt. 1283. She was the daughter of 70. Richard de Rothwell.
64. John Giffard, born Abt. 1235 in Twyford,Bucks, England; died 1300 in England. He was the son of 128. Osbert Giffard and 129. Isabel de Bocland.
66. Thomas de Gardinis, born Abt. 1253 in Oxford, England.
68. John de Morteyn, born Abt. 1245 in Tillsworth, England; died 1296 in Bedfordshire, England. He was the son of 136. John de Morteyn and 137. Constance de Merston. He married 69. Joan Gobion.
69. Joan Gobion She was the daughter of 138. Hugh Gobion and 139. Matilda.
70. Richard de Rothwell
128. Osbert Giffard, born Abt. 1188 in Brimsfield, England. He was the son of 256. Elias Giffard and 257. Maud de Berkeley. He married 129. Isabel de Bocland Abt. 1230.
129. Isabel de Bocland, born Abt. 1211. She was the daughter of 258. Alan de Bocland and 259. Alice de Murdac.
136. John de Morteyn, died Aft. 1265. He married 137. Constance de Merston.
137. Constance de Merston, died Abt. 1293. She was the daughter of 274. Ralph de Merston.
138. Hugh Gobion, died 1275. He was the son of 276. Richard Gobion and 277. Agnes de Merlay. He married 139. Matilda.
139. Matilda
256. Elias Giffard, born Abt. 1142. He was the son of 512. Elias Giffard and 513. Bertha FitzPons. He married 257. Maud de Berkeley Abt. 1183.
257. Maud de Berkeley, born Abt. 1163. She was the daughter of 514. Maurice de Berkeley and 515. Alice de Berkeley.
258. Alan de Bocland, born Abt. 1189. He married 259. Alice de Murdac.
259. Alice de Murdac She was the daughter of 518. Ralph de Murdac and 519. Eve de Grey.
274. Ralph de Merston
276. Richard Gobion, died Bef. December 29, 1230 in Gascony. He married 277. Agnes de Merlay.
277. Agnes de Merlay She was the daughter of 554. Roger de Merlay and 555. Alice de Stuteville.
512. Elias Giffard, born Abt. 1095 in England; died Abt. 1190. He was the son of 1024. Elias Giffard and 1025. Ala ?. He married 513. Bertha FitzPons.
513. Bertha FitzPons, born Abt. 1115; died Aft. 1167. She was the daughter of 1026. Richard FitzPons and 1027. Maud de Gloucester.
514. Maurice de Berkeley, born Abt. 1120; died June 16, 1190. He was the son of 1028. Robert FitzHarding and 1029. Eva. He married 515. Alice de Berkeley 1154.
515. Alice de Berkeley She was the daughter of 1030. Roger III de Berkeley.
518. Ralph de Murdac, born Abt. 1140. He married 519. Eve de Grey.
519. Eve de Grey, born Abt. 1176.
554. Roger de Merlay, died 1188. He was the son of 1108. Ralph de Merlay and 1109. Juliana of Dunbar. He married 555. Alice de Stuteville.
555. Alice de Stuteville, died 1202. She was the daughter of 1110. Roger de Stuteville.
1024. Elias Giffard, born Abt. 1045 in Brimsfield, England; died in England. He was the son of 2048. Osbourne Giffard. He married 1025. Ala ?.
1025. Ala ?
1026. Richard FitzPons He married 1027. Maud de Gloucester.
1027. Maud de Gloucester She was the daughter of 2054. Walter of Gloucester and 2055. Bertha.
1028. Robert FitzHarding, born Abt. 1100; died Abt. 1170. He was the son of 2056. Harding. He married 1029. Eva.
1029. Eva
1030. Roger III de Berkeley He was the son of 2060. Roger II de Berkeley.
1108. Ralph de Merlay, died 1160. He was the son of 2216. William de Merlay and 2217. Menialde. He married 1109. Juliana of Dunbar.
1109. Juliana of Dunbar She was the daughter of 2218. Gospatrick II and 2219. Sybil Morel.
1110. Roger de Stuteville, died Bef. 1202. He was the son of 2220. Osmond de Stuteville and 2221. Isabel de Gressinghall.
2048. Osbourne Giffard, died Aft. 1096. He was the son of 4096. Osbern de Bolbec and 4097. Wevie de Crepon.
2054. Walter of Gloucester, died 1129. He was the son of 4108. Roger de Pistres. He married 2055. Bertha.
2055. Bertha
2056. Harding He was the son of 4112. Eadnoth.
2060. Roger II de Berkeley He was the son of 4120. Roger I de Berkeley and 4121. Rissa.
2216. William de Merlay, died Abt. 1129. He married 2217. Menialde.
2217. Menialde
2218. Gospatrick II, died August 22, 1138 in Cowton Moore, nr Northallerton . He was the son of 4436. Gospatrick I. He married 2219. Sybil Morel.
2219. Sybil Morel
2220. Osmond de Stuteville, died Bef. September 1202. He was the son of 4440. Robert de Stuteville and 4441. Erneburga de Baldric. He married 2221. Isabel de Gressinghall.
2221. Isabel de Gressinghall
4096. Osbern de Bolbec, born Abt. 940 in Longueville, Normandy. He married 4097. Wevie de Crepon Abt. 1001.
4097. Wevie de Crepon, born in Longueville, Normandy, France.
4108. Roger de Pistres
4112. Eadnoth, born Abt. 1030; died 1068.
4120. Roger I de Berkeley, died 1093. He married 4121. Rissa.
4121. Rissa
4436. Gospatrick I, died December 15, 1075 in Ubbanford, Scotland . He was the son of 8872. Maldred of Carlisle and 8873. Edith of Northumberland.
4440. Robert de Stuteville, died 1185. He was the son of 8880. Robert de Stuteville. He married 4441. Erneburga de Baldric.
4441. Erneburga de Baldric
8872. Maldred of Carlisle, born Abt. 1005. He was the son of 17744. Crinan and 17745. Bethoc of Scotland. He married 8873. Edith of Northumberland.
8873. Edith of Northumberland She was the daughter of 17746. Uchtred of Northumberland and 17747. Elgifu of England.
8880. Robert de Stuteville, died Aft. 1107. He was the son of 17760. Robert D'estouteville and 17761. Jeanne de Tallebot.
17744. Crinan, born Abt. 975; died 1045. He married 17745. Bethoc of Scotland.
17745. Bethoc of Scotland, born Abt. 975. She was the daughter of 35490. Malcolm II macCinaeda.
17746. Uchtred of Northumberland, born 989; died 1016. He married 17747. Elgifu of England.
17747. Elgifu of England She was the daughter of 35494. KING Ethelred the Unready and 35495. Elfgifu.
17760. Robert D'estouteville He married 17761. Jeanne de Tallebot.
17761. Jeanne de Tallebot
35490. Malcolm II macCinaeda, died November 25, 1034 in Glammis. He was the son of 70980. Keneth II macMaelColuim.
35494. KING Ethelred the Unready, born Abt. 968; died April 23, 1016 in London, Manchester, England. He was the son of 70988. KING Edgar the Peaceful and 70989. Alfthryth. He married 35495. Elfgifu.
35495. Elfgifu
70980. Keneth II macMaelColuim, died 995 in Fettercairn, Scotland. He was the son of 141960. Malcolm macDomnaill.
70988. KING Edgar the Peaceful, born Abt. 943; died July 08, 975. He was the son of 141976. KING EDMUND I and 141977. Elfgifu. He married 70989. Alfthryth.
70989. Alfthryth, born Abt. 945 in Lydford Castle, Devon; died Bet. November 17, 999 - 1002 in Wherwell Abbey, Hampshire. She was the daughter of 141978. Ordgar and 141979. ?.
141960. Malcolm macDomnaill, died 954. He was the son of 283920. Donald macCausantin.
141976. KING EDMUND I, born Abt. 922; died May 26, 946 in Pucklechurch. He was the son of 283952. Edward the Elder and 283953. Eadgifu. He married 141977. Elfgifu.
141977. Elfgifu, died Abt. May 18, 944. She was the daughter of 283955. Wynfled.
141978. Ordgar, died 971. He married 141979. ?.
141979. ?, died Bef. 981.
283920. Donald macCausantin, died 900 in Forres. He was the son of 567840. Causantin mac Cináeda.
283952. Edward the Elder, born Abt. 872; died July 17, 924 in in Farndon-On-Dee, Mercia, England. He was the son of 567904. KING Alfred the Great and 567905. Eahlswith of Gaini. He married 283953. Eadgifu.
283953. Eadgifu, died Aft. 966. She was the daughter of 567906. Sigehelm.
283955. Wynfled
567840. Causantin mac Cináeda, died 876. He was the son of 1135680. Cináed mac Alpin.
567904. KING Alfred the Great, born Abt. 849 in Wantage, Berkshire; died October 28, 899. He was the son of 1135808. Ethelwulf and 1135809. Osburga. He married 567905. Eahlswith of Gaini 868 in Wincester, England.
567905. Eahlswith of Gaini, died Bet. December 05, 902 - 903 in Wincester, England. She was the daughter of 1135810. Aethelred Mucil and 1135811. Eadburga.
567906. Sigehelm, died Bet. 902 - 904 in Battle of Holme.
1135680. Cináed mac Alpin, died February 08, 857/58 in Palace of Forteviot, Perthshire. He was the son of 2271360. Alpín mac Ech[d]ach.

1135808. Ethelwulf, born Abt. 800; died January 13, 857/58. He was the son of 2271616. Ecgbert III of Wessex and 2271617. Redburga. He married 1135809. Osburga.
1135809. Osburga She was the daughter of 2271618. Oslac.
1135810. Aethelred Mucil, died 866. He married 1135811. Eadburga.
1135811. Eadburga
2271360. Alpín mac Ech[d]ach, died Abt. 840 in Galloway. He was the son of 4542720. Eochaid mac Áeda Find.
2271616. Ecgbert III of Wessex, born Abt. 775; died February 04, 838/39. He was the son of 4543232. Eahlmund of Kent. He married 2271617. Redburga.
2271617. Redburga
2271618. Oslac
4542720. Eochaid mac Áeda Find, died Abt. 781. He was the son of 9085440. Áed Find mac Echdach.
4543232. Eahlmund of Kent, died Aft. 784. He was the son of 9086464. Eaba of Wessex.
9085440. Áed Find mac Echdach, died 778. He was the son of 18170880. Eochaid mac Echach.
9086464. Eaba of Wessex He was the son of 18172928. Eoppa.
18170880. Eochaid mac Echach, died 733. He was the son of 36341760. Eochu ua Domnaill.
18172928. Eoppa, died Abt. 718. He was the son of 36345856. Inglid.
36341760. Eochu ua Domnaill, died Abt. 697. He was the son of 72683520. Domangart mac Domnaill Bricc.
36345856. Inglid He was the son of 72691712. Cenred.
72683520. Domangart mac Domnaill Bricc, died Abt. 673. He was the son of 145367040. Domnall Brecc.
72691712. Cenred He was the son of 145383424. Ceolwald.
145367040. Domnall Brecc, died Abt. 643. He was the son of 290734080. Eochu Buide.
145383424. Ceolwald He was the son of 290766848. Cuthwulf.
290734080. Eochu Buide, died Abt. 632. He was the son of 581468160. Áedán mac Gabráin.
290766848. Cuthwulf, born Abt. 592. He was the son of 581533696. Cuthwine.
581468160. Áedán mac Gabráin, died Abt. 609. He was the son of 1162936320. Gabrán mac Domangairt.
581533696. Cuthwine, born Abt. 565. He was the son of 1163067392. Ceawlin.
1162936320. Gabrán mac Domangairt, died Abt. 559. He was the son of 2325872640. Domangart mac Fergusa.
1163067392. Ceawlin, died 593. He was the son of 2326134784. Cynric.
2325872640. Domangart mac Fergusa, died Abt. 506. He was the son of 4651745280. Fergus.
2326134784. Cynric He was the son of 4652269568. Creoda.
4651745280. Fergus, died Abt. 501. He was the son of 9303490560. Ercc.
4652269568. Creoda He was the son of 9304539136. Cerdic.
9303490560. Ercc
9304539136. Cerdic

[cynthia.ann...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 12:17:16 PM UTC-4, cynthia.ann...@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks all. I did have this line but not with all the detailed dates etc. I appreciate it.

[lee]

"As far as I've been able to tell, it's Alice Freeman's supposed Carolingian ancestry that's been proven, unproven, reproven, and (most
recently) unproven again."

Can someone identify the specific generation in RD600, p. 557 (from John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney back to Louis IV of France) that has been disproven? I do see Weis now begins ARS line 149 with Charles of Lower Lorraine (parentage unknown?):

Louis IV, d. 10 Sept 954, King of the Franks; m. Gerberga of Saxony, dau. of Henry I "The Fowler," King of the Saxons

Charles, Duke of Lower Lorraine, d. 991; m. Adelaide

Adelaide of Lower Lorraine, d. aft. 1012; m. Albert I, Count of Namur

Albert II, Count of Namur, d. 1064; m. Regelinde of Lower Lorraine

Albert III, Count of Namur, d. 22 Jun 1102; m. Ida of Saxony, b.ca. 1050, d. 31 Jul 1102

Godfrey, Count of Namur, d. 19 Aug 1139; m. ca. 1087 (1) Sybil of Chateau-Porcien, div.

Elizabeth of Namur, b. ca. 1090, d. ca. 1144; m. (1) Gervais, Count of Rethel, d. 1124

Millecent of Rethel, b. ca. 1124, d. ca. 1161; m. (2) Richard de Camville, b. ca. 1110, d. ca. 1176, of Middleton, Oxfords. and Sutton, Warwicks

William de Camville, b. ca. 1145, d. ca. 1205; m. Auberee (Albreda)
de Marmion, d. ca. 1233

William de Camville, b. ca. 1178, d. aft. 1240; m. Iseuda -

Thomas de Camville, d. ca. 1235, of Alcester, Arrow, Warwicks.; m. Agnes

Felicia de Camville; m. ca. 1236 Philip Durvassal, b. ca. 1214, d. ca. 1279, of Alcester, Coughton, Warwicks.

Thomas Durvassal, b. ca. 1239; m. Margery

Margery Durvassal, b. ca. 1274; m. William Spinney (de la Spine),b. ca. 1270

Sir William Spinney, b. ca. 1298 of Coughton, Warwicks.; m. Alice de Bruley, b. ca. 1308

Sir Guy Spinney, b. ca. 1342, Baron of Coughton, Warwicks.; m. Katherine

Eleanor Spinney, b. ca. 1385; m. John Throckmorton, esq., b. ca. 1382, d. 13 Apr 1445, of Coughton, Warwicks

Or is there rather an issue within Ancestral Roots, 8th ed., lines 29A or 43/43A (Alice Freeman back to John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney)?

Agnes Throckmorton, their daughter, m. Thomas Wynslow

Agnes Wynslow; m. John Giffard, son of Thomas & Eleanor, b. abt. 1431, of
Twyford, Buckinghamshire, d. bef. 23 Sep 1506

(the remainder of the line copied from post below):

[Steve Riggan]

Alice Freeman's ancestress Amy Danvers, wife of John Langston, was the sister of Sir William Danvers who was the great grandfather of my 12x great grandmother Lady Margaret Skipwith (nee Cave). I have seen a line back from this branch via Quatremain to le Breton, Grey of Rotherfield, de Duston to Hugh Wake and wife Emma de Clare who was descended from Charlemagne. I did see some verification of this line but can't find the source as we speak. I would welcome any comments on this from the group who may have more information on this line than I.

Steve Riggan

Sent from my iPhone

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Jan Wolfe]

In the line described below, there is evidence that the given name of the wife of "William Spinney (de la Spine), b. ca. 1270" was Margery, but I have not found evidence that she was the daughter of "Thomas Durvassal, b. ca. 1239; m. Margery." My current notes for this William Spyne and Margery are here: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gen/mn/m28705x28706.htm

Here is a copy of my current notes (since they will likely change over time), but to use the links in the footnotes, please use the website:

Notes for William Spyne and Margery

1293 "Grant by Godfrey Giffard, bishop of Worcester, to William son of William de Spineto, of the Manor of Cocton juxta Spernovere in the County of Warwick. Dated at Wydindon, the feast of St. Luke the Evangelist [October 18], 21 Edward I." [1]

1293/94 On January 27, William del Espyne and Joan his wife granted Coughton to William son of William del Espyne. [2]

22 Edward I. 1293-1294 ...
1100. Coughton (Quinz. of Hilary) William s. of William del Espyne, pl. William del Espyne and Joan his wife, def., by Henry Gamel, attorney of the said William. A messuage, 2 carucates of land, 50 a. of meadow and 40s. rents in Cokton'. Plea of covenant. Def. recog. right of pl. and quitclaim from themselves and the heirs of Joan. Cons., a grant to def. of 100 s. yearly for life of Joan (at Eas. and Mich.)

1294 "Oct. 12. Westminster. Inspeximus and confirmation of a writing of quit-claim, dated at Whythindon, the day of St. Luke the Evangelist, 21 Edward I, whereby Godfrey Giffard, bishop of Worcester, granted in fee simple to William son of William de Spineto his manor of Cotton by Spernouner, co. Warwick, with the lands, tenements and rents, as well of his free men as of his villeins, and with the meadows, feedings, pastures, wards, reliefs and escheats, and also all other lands which he acquired from Roger de Spineto; and no grant of the king made at the bishop's instance of the said land to the bishop and his successors and the church of Worcester shall prejudice the said William or his heirs. Witness: Sirs Gerard de Caumville, Peter de Lench and Robert de Valle, knights; Richard de Peyto, Robert Lyvet and others." [3]

1309 "July 15. Langley. The like [commission of oyer and terminer] to William de Bereford and John de Cantilupo, on complaint by Roger de Billesley and Isabell his wife, that William de la Spyneye and Marger[y] his wife, Thomas de Litleton, Master Ralph de Witheleye, William de Wovardynton, John de Dufford, Simon Agaz, and Richard le Clerk of Cokton, with others, entered his houses at Cokton, co. Warwick, assaulted him, his children and servants, imprisoned him, took away his wife Isabella to Warwick and imprisoned her there, impounded 6 of his oxen and 8 of his cows, broke his close, felled his trees, and with cattle depastured, trampled down and consumed his growing corn. By C." [4]

1315/6 Land in Coughton held by William de Spineto was listed in the IPM of Guy de Bello Campo on January 12. [5]

Guy de Bello Campo, Earl of Warwick.
Writ, 16 Aug. 9 Edw. II. [1315]
Inq. 12 Jan. 9 Edw. II. [1315/16] ...
Warwick
Cokton. 1/2 knight’s fee held by William de Spineto.

1315/16 On March 12, the assignment of dower to Alice, late the wife of Guy de Bello Campo, earl of Warwick, lists "a moiety of a fee in Cokton, in the same county [Warwick], which William de Spineto holds, of the yearly value of 100s ..." [6]

1317/18 Margery, perhaps the widow of William de Spineto, had married William de Sutton by January 20 when the following fine was returned. [7]

11 Edward II. 1317-1318
1489. Coughton. (As last. [Oct. of Hil.]) William de Sutton' of Warrewyk' and Margery his wife, and William s. of William del Espine, pl., Stephen s. of John Mabely of Sutton' in Colfeld', def. Manor of Cokton' juxta Spernore. Plea of covenant. William de Sutton' and Margery recog. right of def., as of their gift. Cons., def. grants to them, to hold of the chief lords for their lives; remainder to the other pl. and the heirs of his body begotten; contingent remainder in tail successively to his sisters Joan and Alice, and to his right heirs. (13.)

1317-1318 11 Edward II, 8 July 1317-7 July 1318, "John son of Hugh de Northfolk to Walter de Suttone of Warwick, Margery his wife, and the heirs of William de la Spyne: Quitclaim of a messuage and land in North Littleton: Worcs." [8]

Footnotes:

[1] J. W. Willis Bund, ed., Episcopal Registers, Diocese of Worcester, Register of Bishop Godfrey Giffard, September 23rd, 1268, to August 15th, 1301, Vol. 2 (Oxford: Worcestershire Historical Society, 1902), 437, [HathiTrust].

[2] Ethel Stokes, Lucy Drucker, and Frederick T. S. Houghton, eds., Warwickshire Feet of Fines, Vol. 2, 13 Edw. I (1284)-18 Edw. III (1345) (London: Oxford University Press for The Dugdale Society, Vol. 15, 1939), 27.

[3] Calendar of the Patent Rolls, Edward I, Vol. 3, 1292-1301 (London: HMSO, 1895), 98, [HathiTrust], [Internet_Archive].

[4] H. C. Maxwell Lyte, ed., Calendar of the Patent Rolls, Edward II, A.D. 1307-1313 (London: HMSO, 1894), 237, [HathiTrust], [Internet_Archive].

[5] Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. 5, Edward II (London: HMSO, 1908), 405, [Google], [HathiTrust], [Internet_Archive].

[6] H. C. Maxwell Lyte, ed., Calendar of the Close Rolls, Edward II, Vol. II, 1313-1318 (London: HMSO, 1893), 278, [Google], [Internet_Archive], [HathiTrust].

[7] Ethel Stokes, Lucy Drucker, and Frederick T. S. Houghton, eds., Warwickshire Feet of Fines, Vol. 2, 13 Edw. I (1284)-18 Edw. III (1345) (London: Oxford University Press for The Dugdale Society, Vol. 15, 1939), 98.

[8] The National Archives of the United Kingdom Catalog, E 210/9005, Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Ancient Deeds, Series D, [UK_National_Archives].

[Darrel Hockley]

Was Alice Freeman a relative of Elizabeth Freeman (1631 to 1720), wife of Emmanuel Woolley (1625 to 1681) of Newport, Rhode Island?
Darrel Hockley

From: Steve Riggan <sri...@hotmail.com>
To: lee <dorla...@gmail.com>
Cc: "gen-me...@rootsweb.com" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Alice Freeman

Alice Freeman's ancestress Amy Danvers, wife of John Langston, was the sister of Sir William Danvers who was the great grandfather of my 12x great grandmother Lady Margaret Skipwith (nee Cave). I have seen a line back from this branch via Quatremain to le Breton, Grey of Rotherfield, de Duston to Hugh Wake and wife Emma de Clare who was descended from Charlemagne. I did see some verification of this line but can't find the source as we speak. I would welcome any comments on this from the group who may have more information on this line than I.

Steve Riggan

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 21, 2016, at 8:15 AM, lee <dorla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[joe...@gmail.com]

Who is questioning that Charles Duke of Lorraine was the son of Louis iv? That's a new one to me, but admittedly is not my time period of expertise.

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 8:14:48 AM UTC-8, keewaydin wrote:
> "As far as I've been able to tell, it's Alice Freeman's supposed Carolingian ancestry that's been proven, unproven, reproven, and (most
> recently) unproven again."
>
> Can someone identify the specific generation in RD600, p. 557 (from John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney back to Louis IV of France) that has been disproven? I do see Weis now begins ARS line 149 with Charles of Lower Lorraine (parentage unknown?):
>
> Louis IV, d. 10 Sept 954, King of the Franks; m. Gerberga of Saxony, dau. of Henry I "The Fowler," King of the Saxons
>
> Charles, Duke of Lower Lorraine, d. 991; m. Adelaide
>

This is a misreading [or misquotation] of line 149 in AR. It isn't Charles of Lorraine's parentage that is indicated to be unknown in AR but instead the parentage of his wife Adelheid.

[Peter Stewart]

However, there is a question over the next generation shown in the
poster's table:

On 22/12/2016 3:14 AM, lee wrote:
> "As far as I've been able to tell, it's Alice Freeman's supposed Carolingian ancestry that's been proven, unproven, reproven, and (most
> recently) unproven again."
>
> Can someone identify the specific generation in RD600, p. 557 (from John Throckmorton - Eleanor Spinney back to Louis IV of France) that has been disproven? I do see Weis now begins ARS line 149 with Charles of Lower Lorraine (parentage unknown?):
>
> Louis IV, d. 10 Sept 954, King of the Franks; m. Gerberga of Saxony, dau. of Henry I "The Fowler," King of the Saxons
>
> Charles, Duke of Lower Lorraine, d. 991; m. Adelaide
>

> Adelaide of Lower Lorraine, d. aft. 1012; m. Albert I, Count of Namur
>
> Albert II, Count of Namur, d. 1064; m. Regelinde of Lower Lorraine

According to Richer, Charles of Lower Lorraine had two daughters, named
Gerberga and Adelaide. Later sources state that his two daughters were
named Gerberga and Ermengarde, and that the latter was mother of Albert
II of Namur.

Some historians have smoothly conflated Ermengarde with Richer's
Adelaide, while others have placed Ermengarde instead as a granddaughter
of Charles, making her the daughter of his son Otto (who is not recorded
as having married).

Peter Stewart

[stephanie...@gmail.com]

I am a descendant of Alice Freeman, and something about the line has always puzzled me. Can anyone explain why we tend to say, "A descendant of Athelred te Unredy" rather than "A descendant of Alfred the Great"?

Warmly,

Stephanie Ann

[joe...@gmail.com]

Quite simply, Aethelred II is the most recent proven monarch who is ancestral. Alfred the great was king earlier.

[stephanie...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 10:50:02 AM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
> Quite simply, Aethelred II is the most recent proven monarch who is ancestral. Alfred the great was king earlier.

Yes, but Aethlred is a direct descendant of Alfred, is he not? If so, I don't understand why the line seems to freeze at Aethelred...

[Richard Smith]

It doesn't, and I'm be surprised if anyone was suggesting that. When a
genealogist says someone is descended from a particular monarch, they
tend to say the most recent monarch they know the person to be descended
from. For example, I might describe myself as a descendant of Henry
III. This is because I have a fairly well-documented descent from Henry
III's younger son, Edmund "Crouchback". I'm not aware of having a
descent from Henry III's eldest son and successor, Edward I, nor to any
more recent monarch. Of course, a descent from Henry III implies a
descent from William "the Conqueror", Alfred "the Great", Charlemagne
and the early kings of Dál Riata, but as this is implied by the
statement that I descend from Henry III, there's no need to say so
specifically. In the same way, a descent from Æthelred II "the Unready"
implies a descent from Ælfred "the Great".

Richard