Petronilla de Flamville, wife of Robert de Leicester

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Can anyone confirm or refute my guess that Petronilla's father William de Flamville of Aston Flamville, Leics, was married firstly to Petronilla, daughter of Oliver Sarazin or Sarracenus?

I find the following references(in no particular order) to William de Flamville & his wife Petronilla Sarazin, but so far nothing, other than the name Petronilla, to indicate that Petronilla de Flamville, wife of Robert de Leicester, was their daughter.

Peter R Coss, Lordship, Knighthood and Locality: A Study in English Society, c. 1180 to 1280, 1991, 234: "In the early 1220s William de Flamville functioned as steward to William de Hastings (d. 1224/5). That this is our man is indicated by the fact that he witnessed a Coundon charter for William together with three other knights, one of whom was Oliver Sarazin (or Seutacen), his father-in-law through his first wife."
VCH Warwickshire vol VI, Knightlow Hundred, Willoughby: A certain "Ralph had kept 10 virgates in demesne, and had subinfeudated William Hastang of 2 virgates. He also had enfeoffed Oliver Sarazin of an unspecified amount by service of a sore sparrowhawk, and Oliver had enfeoffed William de Flamvil on his marriage with his daughter Petronilla."
John S. Moore, "Who was 'Mahumet'? Arabs in Angevin England," Prosopon Newsletter, 2000, notes that Oliver Saracenus acquired part of ralph fitz wigan's serjeantry at Willoughby, Warwicks, which he gave as dowry with his daughter Petronilla to William de Flamvill (citing F. M. Stenton, Documents Illustrative of the Economic and Social History of the Danelaw (Oxford, 1920), p. 341; P.R. 25 Hen. III, p. 49; Book of Fees, III, 1279).

Living in Sarajevo,which has no reference library where I could consult the reference works that many members of this group have access to, I am limited in my research to trawling the internet - and am indebted to those of you whose postings have often helped me to resolve a dilemma. But so far there appears to be nothing on Oliver Sarazin/Saracenus and his daughter Petronilla.

Happy New Year to all
Saba

[taf]

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 3:16:31 AM UTC-8, sabaris...@gmail.com wrote:
> Can anyone confirm or refute my guess that Petronilla's father William de
> Flamville of Aston Flamville, Leics, was married firstly to Petronilla,
> daughter of Oliver Sarazin or Sarracenus

If you mean Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester, I thought his wife was documented as Petronell de Grandmesnil.

> I find the following references(in no particular order) to William de
> Flamville & his wife Petronilla Sarazin, but so far nothing, other than
> the name Petronilla, to indicate that Petronilla de Flamville, wife of
> Robert de Leicester, was their daughter.

I find the following that mentions an Oliver Sarazin and a William de Flamville in close proximity:

"Under Warwickshire and Leicestershire Ralph the son and heir of Wygan, who held 12 virgates of land in Wyleby, is said to have enfeoffed Oliver Sarazin by the service of one sore hawk. Another feoffment by him by the same service is also mentioned". In Northumberland William Falconer held half a carucate of land in Letebir for one sore hawk", and the four sisters and coheiresses of William Flamavill held in chief of the King the moiety of the town of Wytingham with the appurtenances by the service of one sore hawk per annum". "

XXV. Notices of the gift or render of a Sore Hawk, with especial reference to a Fine levied in the Town Court of Cambridge (21 Edw. III.). By C. H. Cooper, F.S.A., Proceedings of the Cambridge Antiquarian Society, vol. 1.

If this is the same Flamville, then he would seem to have died without issue, but it may be a different WIlliam.

I note that there appears to have been an article that gave some coverage to the Sarazins in Transactions of the Leicestershire Archaeological Society, vol. 23, but I can only see 'snippets' of it. It cites Nichols.

I also find the following in a snippet: "From De Banco roll 49, Easter, 1283, m. 5441., we learn that a certain Oliver Sarazin held the entire manor 0f Shakerston. temp. Henry III, and had issue, two daughters and co-heirs, Joan the wife of Ralph de Aunvers and Amice the wife of John de Shepley." Reports and Papers of the Architectural and Archaeological Societies of the Counties of Lincoln and Northampton, Volume 35

Again, if this is the same Oliver, then his daughter Petronilla must have d.s.p.

taf

[al...@mindspring.com]

> Heppy New Year to all
> Saba

See the post here: MichaelAnne Guido, post to SGM dated 4 Jan 2002, Reginald Basset of Wolvery, co. Warwick.

He talks about the same Robert de Leycestre.

Doug Smith

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Saba,

For a discussion and some more details of the Leicestershire family of Sarazin, later called Sarson, see:-

W. G. Hoskins, "Leicestershire Yeoman Families and their Pedigrees," Transactions of the Leicestershire Archaeological Society, vol. 23 (1947), 52-53.
https://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/yeomanPagesfromXXIIIpartI-3.pdf

Best regards,

John

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Thank you for these further sources for Oliver Sarazin. A few comments:

The William de Flamville who died without issue, leaving four sisters as his heirs, was of Whittingham, Northumberland, not of Leics/Warwicks. See, e.g., the IPM of his sister Constance, wife of William Bataille (CIPM vol I, 478). The Northumberland Flamvilles were discussed by Michael-Anne Guido on 14 Jan 2005 in part 2 of Ancestry of Beatrice, wife of Robert Hauley.

William de Flamville of Aston Flamville, Leics, father of Petronilla wife of Robert de Leycestre/Leicester, was referred to by MichaelAnne Guido on 6 Jan 2002 sub Reginald Basset of Wolvey, but with no further details. Nichols (Hist. Leics vol 4 pt 2) gives a pedigree of Flamville of Aston Flamville but names only William's son and heir and does not name his wife.

It is easy to confuse the two Williams, as both were the sons of a Roger Flamville (and to make matters worse there is also a Roger Flamville of Yorkshire at about this time; see Charles Clay and Diana E Greeway, Early Yorkshire Families,30, 32).

The reference to Oliver Sarazin and the sore hawk also appears in VCH Warwickshire vol VI, sub Willoughby, which states that Ralph son of Wygan "had enfeoffed Oliver Sarazin of an unspecified amount by service of a sore sparrowhawk, and Oliver had enfeoffed William de Flamvil on his marriage with his daughter Petronilla."

Thank you, and thanks also to John Watson, for pointing me to the article in Transactions of the Leicestershire Archaeological Society. The Oliver Sarazin there named, patron of the living of Shackerstone in 1220 (also recorded by Nichols), who had only two daughters, could well be a later Oliver, as the Oliver whose daughter Petronilla married William de Flamville was living and clearly of age in 1178/9 (when he purchased the wardship of Henry de Areci) and 1190, when he witnessed the Odstone charter. The article in Transactions makes no mention of these earlier records.

William de Flamville, father of Petronilla wife of Robert de Leycestre, was serving as steward to William de Hastings in the early 1220s, which is congruent with his father-in-law being an earlier Oliver Sarazin.

So my question remains, was Petronilla Sarazin, daughter of Oliver and wife of William de Flamville, the mother of Petronilla de Flamville, wife of Robert de Leycestre/Leicester? To me, it seems very likely that she was, but it would be good to have confirmation.

Saba

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Dear John
many thanks for this.
best wishes
Saba

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Dear Sabra,

Exactly which Robert de Leicester are we talking about here? If you mean Robert, Earl of Leicester, and Steward of England and of Normandy, who died in 1190 on his return journey from Jerusalem, then he certainly did not marry Petronilla de Flamville. He married before 1155-59, Pernel (Petronilla), heiress of the Norman honour of Grandmesnil, great-granddaughter of Hugh de Grandmesnil, the Domesday tenant. In 1172 Robert was holding in Normandy, 40 knights' fees of the honour of Grandmesnil.

Regards,

John

[al...@mindspring.com]

I think one Robert de Leycestre of Wolvey,Warwickshire father of Sir Thomas de Leycestre of Wolvey who had three heiresses (CP I: 283-284. Banks, Baronies in Fee, Vol. I: 200. CP V: 85-90).

Doug Smith

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 03:53:15 UTC+7, al...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I think one Robert de Leycestre of Wolvey,Warwickshire father of Sir Thomas de Leycestre of Wolvey who had three heiresses (CP I: 283-284. Banks, Baronies in Fee, Vol. I: 200. CP V: 85-90).
>
> Doug Smith

Dear Doug,

Please check your references again:

CP I: 283-284 - Concerns the family of Astley or Estleigh of of Astley and Bentley, Warwickshire - no mention Sir Thomas de Leycestre of Wolvey.

Banks, Baronies in Fee, Vol. I: 200 - Concerns the family of Erdinton of Erdinton, Warwickshire - no mention of Sir Thomas de Leycestre of Wolvey

CP V: 85-90 - Concerns the family of Erdington of Erdington, Warwickshire - no mention of Sir Thomas de Leycestre of Wolvey.

Regards,

John

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Hello All
my apologies for assuming, since the identity of Robert de Leycester, husband of Petronilla de Flamville, had already been discussed in this group in 2002, that members would realise I was not talking about Robert de Beaumont Earl of Leicester. As Doug Smith pointed out, and I also mentioned in my post yesterday, in 2002 MichaelAnne Guido and Rosie Bevan discussed Robert de Leycester & his son Thomas: "Robert de Leycestre married Petronilla de Flamville of Aston Flamville, co. Leicester, daughter of William de Flamville. In 1317 [De Banco Roll 219, Trinity, 10 Edward II, membrane 185d] Henry de Erdington and his wife Joan [de Wolvey] and John de Cave and his wife Matilda [de Wolvey] sued Alice [de Wolvey] wife of Sir Giles de Astley for two parts of a messuage an carucate of land in Sixtenby, co. Leicester, which William de Flamville gave to Robert de Leycestre and Petronilla his wife, and their issue, and which after their deaths and the death of their son and heir Thomas was to be inherited by his heirs who were his three daughters, Alice de Astley, Joan de Erdington and Matilda de Cave. Robert de Leycestre was alive in 1256 when he was exempted from knight's service due to old age and infirmity."

As regards the references given by Doug Smith, CP I, 283-284, does indeed mention Thomas de Wolvey: ""Andrew of Astley. . . m. Sibyl." His eldest son and heir Nicholas dsp and was succeeded by his nephew Thomas, "s. and h. of Sir Giles of A. (d. before 1316), br. of the last Lord, by Alice, (living 1344-5), 2nd da. and coh. of Sir Thomas Wolvey." Thomas is identified in CP and Banks as "de Wolvey" rather than "de Leycester of Wolvey." Thomas's daughter Joan married Henry de Erdington, as noted in CP V, 85-86 and Banks, Baronies in Fee, vol I, 200.
So unless MichaelAnne Guido and Rosie Bevan are mistaken in identifying Thomas Wolvey with Thomas son of Robert Leycester - and surely they would by now have corrected this, if it was incorrect - everything became clear to me, once I had sorted out my Flamvilles (Yorkshire, Northumberland, Leics/Warwicks), except for the subject of my original query - who was the wife of William de Flamville of Aston Flamville, father of Petronilla?
best regards
Saba