Louvain-Ponthieu link?
John Parsons
the descent suggested below for Count John I of Ponthieu (c. 1138-1191) from
the counts of Louvain through his mother Countess Ida (d. 1177/78), whose
parentage has not yet been established.
I would appreciate any worthwhile comments.
Regards
John P.
**************************************************************************
In an undated letter 1172 X 1190, Count John I of Ponthieu (d. 1191) called
Count Philip of Flanders "cognatus" (C. Brunel, _Recueil des actes des
comtes de Pontieu (1026-1279)_ [Paris, 1930], no. 122).
John I of Ponthieu was the son of Count Guy II (d. 1147) & Ida (d. 1177/78,
of unknown parentage). His cognatus Philip of Flanders was the son of
Dietrich/Thierry “of Alsace,” count of Flanders, & his second wife Sibylle
of Anjou.
C.T. Lewis & C. Short, _A Latin Dictionary_ (Oxford: Clarendon Press 1875,
rpt. 1975) defines "cognatus, cognata" as "sprung from the same stock,
related by blood, kindred; a blood-relation, kinsman (on either the father's
or the mother's side)."
That John & Philip were kinsmen offers a point from which to investigate the
parentage of John I’s mother, Countess Ida. Consideration of their ancestry
and of feudal ties between the counts of Ponthieu and Flanders suggests that
a link may be sought in a common descent from Count Philip’s grandmother
Gertrude of Flanders (d. 1117), who married twice: first to Count Henry III
of Louvain (d. Feb. 1095) & then to Duke Thierry/Dietrich of Lorraine (d.
1115).
According to _Genealogia ducum Brabantiae heredum Franciae_, ed. G. Waitz
(MGH SS 23) p. 390, & _Chronica Albrici monachi Trium Fontium_, ed. P.
Scheffer-Boichorst (MGH SS 23) p. 871, Count Henry III of Louvain & Gertrude
of Flanders had 4 daus. Neither chronicler names any of the four, & the
only information given about any of them is that one was a great-grandmother
of Empress Beatrice of Burgundy, second wife of Frederick Barbarossa. Based
on this statement, that dau. has been identified as follows:
1. Adelaide d. ca 1159 m. Duke Simon of Lorraine (her stepbrother). It was
once thought this dau. m. a count of Burgundy, to which fief Barbarossa’s
wife was heir. But the wife of that count of Burgundy was otherwise
identified, & identification of Adelaide as a dau. of the count of Louvain
was effected by process of elimination: Duke Simon’s wife Adelaide was the
only other unidentified great-grandmother of Empress Beatrice. See
Isenburg-Büdingen & Freytag von Loringhoven, _Stammtafeln_ (1965), ii, taf.
8, 9, 13; J. Lanz, _Die Ahnen Konradins des letzten Hohenstaufen_ (Vienna,
1971), pp. 5, 9; M. Parisse, _Noblesse et chevalerie en Lorraine médiévale_
(Nancy, 1982), p. 400.
2-4. These 3 daus. are unnamed by the two cited chroniclers, who say
nothing of their marriages.
Upon Henry III of Louvain’s death, his 4 daus. were dispossessed by his
brother Godefroy (d. 1139; in 1106 first duke of Lower Lotharingia [Brabant]
of this family).
Gertrude of Flanders m. 2nd (in/after July 1095, probably in that year)
Duke Thierry/Dietrich II of Lorraine (d. 1115). Among her issue by that
marriage was Thierry/Dietrich “of Alsace” (d. 1168), count of Flanders after
the 1127 murder of Charles the Good. Thierry/Dietrich was father of Philip
of Alsace, count of Flanders (d. 1191), whom John I of Ponthieu called
"cognatus."
Thus the daus. of Henry III of Louvain were uterine sisters of Count Thierry
of Flanders and their children, first cousins (of the half blood) of Count
Philip of Flanders.
Feudal tenures give reason to believe John I of Ponthieu’s kinship to
Thierry/Dietrich of Flanders rested on common descent from Gertrude of
Flanders, John I presumably through one of her daus. by Henry III of Louvain
& Thierry/Dietrich from her marriage to Simon of Lorraine.
In the 12th and 13th centuries, the counts of Ponthieu held a fief and/or
money fee of the counts of Flanders. The fief, “la Vacherie” or “la
Berquerie,” was given by John I in 1178 as maritagium to his dau. Adela &
the lord of Saint-Valéry-sur-Somme. In the 1280s, Jeanne de Dammartin’s
heir in Ponthieu, Eleanor of Castile, queen of England (1241-90), was
evidently engaged in litigation with the count of Flanders over this fief &
later granted it, “wherever it may be,” to her steward Sir John Ferré (J.C.
Parsons, “The Beginnings of English Administration in Ponthieu: An Unnoticed
Document of 1280,” _Mediaeval Studies_ 50 (1988), 385, 401 [no. 56]; CPR
1272-1281, p. 359; Eleanor’s litigation may, however, have involved the
money fee, not a fief: CPR 1281-1292, p. 20). The Flemish fief & money fee
could have come to the counts of Ponthieu as descendants of one of the
half-sisters of Count Thierry of Flanders.
Countess Ida of Ponthieu, John I’s mother, could not have been one of the 3
unknown daus. of Henry III of Louvain. [For these dates, see van de Pas.]
John I’s grandparents, William I Talvas of Ponthieu & Hélie of Burgundy, m.
ca. 1115. Their son Guy (II) & Ida appear as husband and wife in December
1139 but must have m. some time before that. Their son John I was a minor
when Guy II d. on crusade at Ephesus in 1147 & was recognized as count of
Ponthieu in 1153 when he must have been aged 15, the age of majority for
holding fiefs according to the customs of Picardy (see H. d’Arbois de
Jubainville, “Recherches sur la minorité et ses effets dans le droit féodal
français,” _Bibliothèque de l’Ecôle des Chartes_ 13 [1851-52], 535-37). To
have reached age 15 in 1153, John I must have been b. ca 1138, so Guy II and
Ida m. no later than 1137/38. Thus a birth year for Ida ca 1120 seems
appropriate; she outlived Guy by some 30 years & d. 1177/78. If Ida was b.
ca 1120, she must have been a granddau. of Henry III of Louvain through one
of his 3 unknown daus.
Iaroslav Marek (whose site must be handled with caution) gives one of
Gertrude of Flanders’ 3 unknown daus. by Henry III of Louvain as Gertrude,
m. Count Lambert of Montaigu/Clermont (no dates); Marek does not name the
other 2 daus. Leo van de Pas’ site also gives the name Gertrude for one of
Henry III’s daus., but no marriage for her nor for the other 2 (unnamed)
daus. Van de Pas also has a Count Lambert of Montaigu (no
ancestry/dates/wife) whose dau. Gertrude m. Raoul de Nesle, burggraf of
Bourges (d. 1153/60) & left issue.
According to van de Pas, a great-grandson of the Nesle-Montaigu marriage was
John de Nesle, seigneur de Falvy (d. 1292), 2nd husband of Jeanne de
Dammartin (d. 1279), countess of Ponthieu, John I’s great-granddau.
That Jeanne de Dammartin (d. 1279) & John de Nesle (d. 1292) might both have
been great-grandchildren of Gertrude of Louvain and Count Lambert of
Montaigu calls for remark. If this descent is valid, Jeanne and John would
have been (in modern terms) 2nd cousins & would have required a marriage
dispensation. That no record of such dispensation has been found does not
prove none was obtained. It is possible, of course, that Jeanne de
Dammartin & John de Nesle-Falvy were unaware of such kinship between them.
On the other hand, this offers reason to suppose that Countess Ida of
Ponthieu was a child not of Gertrude of Louvain and Lambert of Montaigu, but
of one of the other 2 unknown daus. of Henry III of Louvain and Gertrude of
Flanders. In modern terms, this would make Jeanne de Dammartin and Jean de
Nesle 3rd cousins and no dispensation would have been needed.
It is obviously also possible, though less plausible, that Ida was a
granddau. of Gertrude of Flanders’ second marriage to Dietrich of Lorraine:
Three children are ascribed with certainty to Gertrude’s 2nd marriage:
Count Dietrich/Thierry of Flanders, Henry of Lorraine bishop of Toul (d.
1165), & Gisela, whose first husband is unknown; her second was Friedrich I,
count of Saarbrücken. She had issue by both husbands (the counts of
Tecklenburg descended from her first marriage). Some authorities give
Gertrude and Dietrich a dau. Ermengarde, m. Bernard, lord of Brancion in
Burgundy; but Ermengarde does not appear in all accounts of this family.
Still others add 2 sons, Gerard and Baldwin, of whom (if they existed)
nothing is known but their names. Gertrude & Dietrich were definitely not
parents of Ida/Oda, sometimes said to have been their dau., m. Count
Siegfried/Sieghard of Schala-Burghausen (d. 1104); this Ida/Oda was
certainly a dau. of the count of Supplinburg and sister of the German King
Lothar III.
As to Duke Simon of Lorraine & Adelaide of Louvain, among whose issue the
wife of Guy II of Ponthieu might also theoretically be sought, 4 children of
this marriage are known with certainty: Duke Matthew I of Lorraine d. 1176;
Agatha fl. 1130, m. Renaud III of Burgundy (the parents of Beatrice, wife of
Frederick Barbarossa); Hedwig wife of Count Frederick II or IV of Toul fl.
1162; Robert, lord of Flörchingen/Fleuranges, d. bef. 1208. Other
authorities include Bertha fl. 1162, m. Hermann III of Baden (d. 1160),
though others make her a dau. of the German King Konrad III (Hohenstaufen).
Others mention Baldwin and John of whom (if they existed) nothing is known
but their names.
Geography makes it unlikely that Count Guy II of Ponthieu would have m. a
dau. of any of those mentioned above as descended from Adelaide of Louvain
or the second marriage of her mother, Gertrude of Flanders. These families
were seated far to the east of Ponthieu, in the Empire or areas of eastern
France that bordered on the Empire, & it is hard to suggest why a count of
Ponthieu would have sought a wife from any of these lineages.
Furthermore no such marriage could explain the fief & money fee the counts
of Ponthieu held of the counts of Flanders in the 12th & 13th centuries.
The fief and fee could have been granted to one of Thierry/Dietrich of
Alsace’s half-sisters on her marriage & then to that half-sister’s
[hypothetical] dau. Ida when she married Guy II of Ponthieu. Or they could
have been granted to Ida herself by her [hypothetical] uncle
Thierry/Dietrich of Alsace.
Nor is there any reason to suggest that the kinship between John I of
Ponthieu & Thierry/Dietrich of Flanders came through Thierry/Dietrich’s
mother, Sibylle of Anjou, sister of Geoffrey V, husband of Matilda the
Empress. Sibylle’s children were thus first cousins of Henry II of England
&, if John I’s mother Ida belonged to any of the well-documented families in
Henry II’s kindred, we would most probably know more about Ida’s origins
than we do.
Finally, while onomastic evidence is often of at best limited value, the
name Ida was prominent in the lineage of the counts of Louvain in
generations preceding the daus. of Count Henry III.
Peter Stewart
""John Parsons"" <car...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BAY7-F11438E54D0...@phx.gbl...
<snip>
> According to _Genealogia ducum Brabantiae heredum Franciae_, ed. G. Waitz
> (MGH SS 23) p. 390, & _Chronica Albrici monachi Trium Fontium_, ed. P.
> Scheffer-Boichorst (MGH SS 23) p. 871, Count Henry III of Louvain &
> Gertrude of Flanders had 4 daus. Neither chronicler names any of the
> four, & the only information given about any of them is that one was a
> great-grandmother of Empress Beatrice of Burgundy, second wife of
> Frederick Barbarossa. Based on this statement, that dau. has been
> identified as follows:
>
> 1. Adelaide d. ca 1159 m. Duke Simon of Lorraine (her stepbrother).
If Georges Poull was correct in his revised views on the parentage of Duke
Simon I, then a different solution would have to be found - in _La Maison
ducale de Lorraine devenue La Maison impériale et royale d'Autriche, de
Hongrie et de Bohême_ (Nancy, 1991) he gave Simon as the eldest son of Duke
Thierry II not by his first wife, Hedwig of Formbach, but from his second
marriage, to Gertrude of Flanders, citing a charter of 11 April 1126 naming
his father Thierry and his mother Gertrude. Consequently Simon would have
been a uterine half-brother of the daughters Gertrude had from her first
marriage, so that his wife could not have been one of them.
Poull considered that Simon's wife Duchess Adelaide was a maternal
half-sibling of Emperor Lothar II von Supplinburg - daughter of her
father-in-law Thierry's first wife Hedwig of Formbach - rather than Simon
himself being this lady's son as had been thought previously.
Have you ruled this out, and if so can you tell us the reasons?
Peter Stewart
al...@mindspring.com
I am confused as usual. Keats-Rohan (DD, p 226) says that John, Comes
d' Alencon was son of William Talvas, Count of Ponthieu and the younger
brother of the Guy (II) who inherited Ponthieu. She goes on to say
that he married Beatrice of Maine. This John died 24 Feb 1191. She
lists a number of children including a son John who died 6 May 1191.
Is one of these John's the same as the John in the discussion? Or is
there a third John who died in 1191? She cites Cronne/Davis, RRAN III,
no 147.
Doug Smith
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
hitherto unknown granddaughter of Baldwin II, Count of Hainault (died
c. 1098), by his wife, Ida of Louvain? Such an arrangement would make
Ida's son, Jean, Count of Ponthieu, near related to Philippe, Count of
Flanders. Count Jean and Count Philippe would be 4th cousins,
certainly within the nornal range of the word "cognatus" for this time
period. Also, it would explain the origin of the name Ida for Count
Jean's mother.
This would also make Countess Ida of Ponthieu near related of Ida of
Hainault, wife of Roger de Tony, the likely ancestress of Countess Ida
le Bigod, mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
the...@aol.com
Dear John, Peter, et al.,
There are two additional pieces of information which would point
to the identification of Adelaide/Adelheid as dau. of Gertrude of
Flanders, and of her husband Duke Simon as son of Hedwig of Formbach:
1. There is no known dau. of Simon and Adelheid/Adelaide being
named Gertrude. However, we do know they had a daughter Hadwide,
evidently named for Simon's mother Hedwig, who m. Frederick II,
count of Toul [ES I Band I.2, Tafel 204].
* This is not conclusive (Duke Simon's paternal grandmother
may also have been named Hedwig - see same tafel in ES),
but it would be more likely that a grandparent was the
source of this name. The absence of a dau. named Gertrude
is interesting, but we do not necessarily know of all the
issue of this marriage.
2. If Duke Simon was the eldest son of Duke Thierry by his 2nd
marriage (to Gertrude of Flanders), then he would have been
the next in line to the County of Flanders - not his younger
brother Thierry. It was Thierry who fought against William
'Clito' over the succession to the County of Flanders, and
who succeeded to the County in 1128 upon William's death (also
having married William's former wife, Sibyl of Anjou).
Given the lack of a historical basis for this filiation, and the
other explanations provided as to references to a 'parent' in charters
when <step-parent> was actually correct, this claim is noticeably
weaker than the 'traditional' [Formbach] ancestry given for Duke
Simon.
Cheers,
John
Peter Stewart
> Hi all
>
> I am confused as usual. Keats-Rohan (DD, p 226) says that John,
> Comes d' Alencon was son of William Talvas, Count of Ponthieu
> and the younger brother of the Guy (II) who inherited Ponthieu.
> She goes on to say that he married Beatrice of Maine. This John
> died 24 Feb 1191. She lists a number of children including a
> son John who died 6 May 1191. Is one of these John's the same as
> the John in the discussion?
No, there are three different fish named John in this kettle of the
Ponthieu family, all of whom died in 1191: Count John of Alençon (died
24 Feb) who married Beatrice of Maine was an uncle of Count John of
Ponthieu (died 30 June) who married (thirdly) Beatrice of Saint-Pol.
The third & youngest of these namesakes (died unmarried on 6 May) was
son of the former and therefore a first cousin of the count whose
relationships began this discussion.
Peter Stewart
al...@mindspring.com
Doug
Peter Stewart
> There are two additional pieces of information which
> would point to the identification of Adelaide/Adelheid as
> dau. of Gertrude of Flanders, and of her husband Duke
> Simon as son of Hedwig of Formbach:
>
> 1. There is no known dau. of Simon and Adelheid/Adelaide
> being named Gertrude. However, we do know they had a
> daughter Hadwide, evidently named for Simon's mother
> Hedwig, who m. Frederick II, count of Toul [ES I Band I.2,
> Tafel 204].
>
> * This is not conclusive (Duke Simon's paternal grandmother
> may also have been named Hedwig - see same tafel in ES),
> but it would be more likely that a grandparent was the
> source of this name. The absence of a dau. named Gertrude
> is interesting, but we do not necessarily know of all the
> issue of this marriage.
I'm not clear how this is supposed to affirm the point - if Simon was
son of Gertrude then it is proposed that his wife Adelaide was daughter
of Hedwig of Formbach, to account for his calling Lothar von
Supplinburg his "brother". We can't know for sure how many daughters
Simon and Adelaide had, but the name Hedwig is just as well accounted
for through either parent from the evidence we have.
> 2. If Duke Simon was the eldest son of Duke Thierry by his 2nd
> marriage (to Gertrude of Flanders), then he would have been
> the next in line to the County of Flanders - not his younger
> brother Thierry. It was Thierry who fought against William
> 'Clito' over the succession to the County of Flanders, and
> who succeeded to the County in 1128 upon William's death
> (also having married William's former wife, Sibyl of Anjou).
In so far as this is evidence, it can't work both ways: we know that
Thierry of Alsace gave back to his brother Duke Simon the seigneury of
Bitche that he had been given by their father - for all we know, this
could have been in return for the cession of his elder full brother's
rights in Flanders. Certainly a full-blood relationship between these
men was credited by the early sources (see below). However, if Simon
was the son of Hedwig of Formbach then it is proposed that his wife
Adelaide was daughter of Gertrude by Henry of Louvain, with her rights
to that countship usurped by her uncle. Simon was clearly not ambitious
enough to contest this inheritance to extend his power, so why must he
have held onto contested rights in Flanders under the alternative
maternal ancestry?
> Given the lack of a historical basis for this filiation, and the
> other explanations provided as to references to a 'parent' in
> charters when <step-parent> was actually correct, this claim
> is noticeably weaker than the 'traditional' [Formbach] ancestry
> given for Duke Simon.
This is the wrong way round, and the other ancestry for Simon is
"traditional" from the early sources - apart from Alberic of
Troisfontaines quoted in my earlier post, there is the following
Flemish account from Galbert of Bruges:
"Robertus igitur duxit Gertrudem comitissam Hollandensem uxorem, de qua
post peractam traditionem genuit...Gertrudem, matrem Simonis et
Gerardi, quae quidem ducissa fuit in Elsatan: Theodericus dux eam
duxerat." [Galbertus notarius Brugensis, _De multro, traditione, et
occisione gloriosi Karoli comitis Flandriarum_, edited by Jeff Rider,
Corpus Christianorum, Continuatio Mediaeualis CXXXI (Turnhout, 1994) p.
120]
As far as I know (NB I haven't seen the work or looked into this
carefully) the switch of Simon's maternity from Gertrude to Hedwig was
due to Emile Duvernoy in _Catalogue des actes des ducs de Lorraine de
1048 à 1220_ (Nancy, 1915).
Peter Stewart
Roger LeBlanc
questions of my own in mind.
The two generations preceding Count John of Ponthieu seem quite
mysterious. Pere Anselme offers for Guillaume Talvas three dates for his
death- 29 June 1143 or 1171 or 1172. Is there any concensus about it? It
would seem the 1143 date must be the likeliest if his son Guy II were in
fact also Count of Ponthieu. However further along, Anselme in
discussing John I Count of Ponthieu writes that he succeeded his father
to the county of Ponthieu, and following the death of his grandfather
(here I assume Guillaume Talvas) he did not claim Alencon even though he
probably had a valid right to it. This last bit suggests Guillaume
Talvas outlived his son Guy II, so would the son (Guy) have even been
count at all?
Roger LeBlanc
Peter Stewart
"Roger LeBlanc" <lebl...@mts.net> wrote in message
news:4250A3FE...@mts.net...
Yes, Guy II ruled as count in Ponthieu during the life of his father, who
also called himself count at the same time & then resumed sole rule
following his eldest son's death on crusade around Christmas Day in 1147.
There are numerous documents indicating this, where Guy names himself count
of Ponthieu acting in his own right and with the assent of his father
William & mother Ela. The first appearance of Guy with the title count is
dated 17 October 1129, as witness to the testament of a local seigneur named
Robert.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> As far as I know (NB I haven't seen the work or looked into
> this carefully) the switch of Simon's maternity from Gertrude
> to Hedwig was due to Emile Duvernoy in _Catalogue des
> actes des ducs de Lorraine de 1048 à 1220_ (Nancy, 1915).
Thanks to the marvel of scanning & the generosity of a newsgroup
subscriber, I have now seen this and can confirm that Duvernoy was the
first to give Hedwig of Formbach as the first wife of Duke Thierry and
mother of Duke Simon, in an appendix to the first part of his catalogue
originally published in 1912.
I must also report, with surprise, that Georges Poull appears not to
have read this very thoroughly. Although the main argument about the
wives of Thierry is not presented with conclusive proofs, some other
evidence is given later, in a discussion of dates, that adds a
chronological difficulty unmentioned by Poull to the possibility of
Simon's wife Adelaide having been a daughter of Hedwig and sister of
Lothar von Supplinburg as he came to believe.
This is a charter dated 22 June after Simon's brother Henry became
bishop of Toul (1126), most likely in 1128. Adelaide is stated to have
consented to the business, but she was not there due to being "vicina
partui" (near to giving birth). This means she was unlikely to have
been daughter of another husband of Hedwig before the latter married
Simon's father, since this evidently took place between 3 March 1079
(when a letter from Pope Gregory VII mentions that Duke Thierry was
seeking to marry another widow) and 15 August of the same year (when
the union was - still? - being celebrated on the Feast of the
Assumption). In other words, if Adelaide had been Lothar's full- or
half-sister, she would have been born in 1074/1078 and bearing children
until she was at least 47 and more probably over 49 years old.
We know that she had much older children at the time she was heavily
pregnant - a daughter was married on the same date as the charter of 22
June, and a younger son had been made a bishop up to two-and-a-quarter
years earlier, so that Adelaide's approaching confinement was out of
the ordinary in any event.
Another point that may have a bearing on the ancestry of Count Jean of
Ponthieu's mother: Hedwig of Formbach had a daughter named Ida, by
either one of her known husbands, who married a Bavarian count,
Sieghard X of Burghausen (killed in battle on 5 February 1104).
Chronologically and from onomastics it appears that Ida was a
full-sister to Lothar von Supplinburg (although other evidence suggests
that he was an only child of his father, whose mother was Ida of
Querfurt). Given that the relationship linking the counts of Ponthieu &
Flanders quite probably traced through a Lorraine connection, perhaps
this Ida and her German husband could have been grandparents to the
wife of Guy II of Ponthieu. Does anyone have a record of the Burghausen
family at this time?
Peter Stewart
John Parsons
unlikely. The only possibility that occurs to me to explain why a
relatively obscure count in NW France might marry a Germanic wife would be a
crusading link, but Guy II of Ponthieu must have m. no later than 1137/8,
well before Louis VII's crusade & rather late to witness personal
friendships between French & German crusaders that might have arisen from
Philip Augustus' crusade. Likewise Philip's marriage to Agnes of Meran
might have opened new matrimonial fields for French nobles but again, Philip
didn't marry Agnes until the mid-1190s, far too late for Guy II's choice of
wife to be affected.
OTOH the marriage of Thibaud of Blois and Mathilde of Carinthia suggests
connections between French & German aristocratic houses at this period, but
I am not able to suggest any links for Matilda which might have led to a
marriage that created kinship between John I of Ponthieu and Philip of
Alsace in Flanders.
John I's letter calling Philip of Alsace as "cognatus" & the Flemish
fief/fee held by John's descendants appear to indicate a greater likelihood
that the kinship between John & Philip involved families in NW France.
Regards
John P.
>From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: FW: Re: Louvain-Ponthieu link?
>Date: 4 Apr 2005 04:21:37 -0700
>
>"John Parsons" wrote:
> > The copiously documented site <genealogie-mittelalter.de> has
>Ida/Oda,
> > countess of Burghausen, as a full sister of Lothar III. According to
>this
> > site, Ida/Oda had 3 sons; no daughters of hers are named.
>
>Thanks, this is the same information as given in ES III Tafel 29 - I
>presume nothing more is known about the family at that time. Another
>Ida appears in the following generation, married ca 1164 to Count
>Liutpold of Plain. From the lack of other heirs/heiresses noted in the
>lineage, it doesn't seem likely that Counbtess Ida of Ponthieu could
>have been her first cousin.
>
>Peter Stewart
>
Hans Vogels
Someone mentioned that M. Parisse, in "La noblesse lorrain, XIe-XIIIe
s.", (2 volumes, Rijsel 1976) in vol.2, page 863-865, identified
Adelheid, wife of duke Simon, as a daughter of Henry III of Louvain. I
have not been able to verify the mentioned pages so I can't check his
argumentation.
Hans Vogels
car...@msn.com ("John Parsons") wrote in message news:<BAY7-F11438E54D0...@phx.gbl>...
> From time to time over the past several years, I have turned attention to
> the descent suggested below for Count John I of Ponthieu (c. 1138-1191) from
> the counts of Louvain through his mother Countess Ida (d. 1177/78), whose
> parentage has not yet been established.
>
> I would appreciate any worthwhile comments.
>
> Regards
>
> John P.
>
> **************************************************************************
> In an undated letter 1172 X 1190, Count John I of Ponthieu (d. 1191) called
> Count Philip of Flanders "cognatus" (C. Brunel, _Recueil des actes des
> comtes de Pontieu (1026-1279)_ [Paris, 1930], no. 122).
>
> John I of Ponthieu was the son of Count Guy II (d. 1147) & Ida (d. 1177/78,
> of unknown parentage). His cognatus Philip of Flanders was the son of
> Dietrich/Thierry ?of Alsace,? count of Flanders, & his second wife Sibylle
> of Anjou.
>
> C.T. Lewis & C. Short, _A Latin Dictionary_ (Oxford: Clarendon Press 1875,
> rpt. 1975) defines "cognatus, cognata" as "sprung from the same stock,
> related by blood, kindred; a blood-relation, kinsman (on either the father's
> or the mother's side)."
>
> That John & Philip were kinsmen offers a point from which to investigate the
> parentage of John I?s mother, Countess Ida. Consideration of their ancestry
> and of feudal ties between the counts of Ponthieu and Flanders suggests that
> a link may be sought in a common descent from Count Philip?s grandmother
> Gertrude of Flanders (d. 1117), who married twice: first to Count Henry III
> of Louvain (d. Feb. 1095) & then to Duke Thierry/Dietrich of Lorraine (d.
> 1115).
>
> According to _Genealogia ducum Brabantiae heredum Franciae_, ed. G. Waitz
> (MGH SS 23) p. 390, & _Chronica Albrici monachi Trium Fontium_, ed. P.
> Scheffer-Boichorst (MGH SS 23) p. 871, Count Henry III of Louvain & Gertrude
> of Flanders had 4 daus. Neither chronicler names any of the four, & the
> only information given about any of them is that one was a great-grandmother
> of Empress Beatrice of Burgundy, second wife of Frederick Barbarossa. Based
> on this statement, that dau. has been identified as follows:
>
> 1. Adelaide d. ca 1159 m. Duke Simon of Lorraine (her stepbrother). It was
> once thought this dau. m. a count of Burgundy, to which fief Barbarossa?s
> wife was heir. But the wife of that count of Burgundy was otherwise
> identified, & identification of Adelaide as a dau. of the count of Louvain
> was effected by process of elimination: Duke Simon?s wife Adelaide was the
> only other unidentified great-grandmother of Empress Beatrice. See
> Isenburg-Büdingen & Freytag von Loringhoven, _Stammtafeln_ (1965), ii, taf.
> 8, 9, 13; J. Lanz, _Die Ahnen Konradins des letzten Hohenstaufen_ (Vienna,
> 1971), pp. 5, 9; M. Parisse, _Noblesse et chevalerie en Lorraine médiévale_
> (Nancy, 1982), p. 400.
> 2-4. These 3 daus. are unnamed by the two cited chroniclers, who say
> nothing of their marriages.
>
> Upon Henry III of Louvain?s death, his 4 daus. were dispossessed by his
> brother Godefroy (d. 1139; in 1106 first duke of Lower Lotharingia [Brabant]
> of this family).
>
> Gertrude of Flanders m. 2nd (in/after July 1095, probably in that year)
> Duke Thierry/Dietrich II of Lorraine (d. 1115). Among her issue by that
> marriage was Thierry/Dietrich ?of Alsace? (d. 1168), count of Flanders after
> the 1127 murder of Charles the Good. Thierry/Dietrich was father of Philip
> of Alsace, count of Flanders (d. 1191), whom John I of Ponthieu called
> "cognatus."
>
> Thus the daus. of Henry III of Louvain were uterine sisters of Count Thierry
> of Flanders and their children, first cousins (of the half blood) of Count
> Philip of Flanders.
>
> Feudal tenures give reason to believe John I of Ponthieu?s kinship to
> Thierry/Dietrich of Flanders rested on common descent from Gertrude of
> Flanders, John I presumably through one of her daus. by Henry III of Louvain
> & Thierry/Dietrich from her marriage to Simon of Lorraine.
>
> In the 12th and 13th centuries, the counts of Ponthieu held a fief and/or
> money fee of the counts of Flanders. The fief, ?la Vacherie? or ?la
> Berquerie,? was given by John I in 1178 as maritagium to his dau. Adela &
> the lord of Saint-Valéry-sur-Somme. In the 1280s, Jeanne de Dammartin?s
> heir in Ponthieu, Eleanor of Castile, queen of England (1241-90), was
> evidently engaged in litigation with the count of Flanders over this fief &
> later granted it, ?wherever it may be,? to her steward Sir John Ferré (J.C.
> Parsons, ?The Beginnings of English Administration in Ponthieu: An Unnoticed
> Document of 1280,? _Mediaeval Studies_ 50 (1988), 385, 401 [no. 56]; CPR
> 1272-1281, p. 359; Eleanor?s litigation may, however, have involved the
> money fee, not a fief: CPR 1281-1292, p. 20). The Flemish fief & money fee
> could have come to the counts of Ponthieu as descendants of one of the
> half-sisters of Count Thierry of Flanders.
>
> Countess Ida of Ponthieu, John I?s mother, could not have been one of the 3
> unknown daus. of Henry III of Louvain. [For these dates, see van de Pas.]
> John I?s grandparents, William I Talvas of Ponthieu & Hélie of Burgundy, m.
> ca. 1115. Their son Guy (II) & Ida appear as husband and wife in December
> 1139 but must have m. some time before that. Their son John I was a minor
> when Guy II d. on crusade at Ephesus in 1147 & was recognized as count of
> Ponthieu in 1153 when he must have been aged 15, the age of majority for
> holding fiefs according to the customs of Picardy (see H. d?Arbois de
> Jubainville, ?Recherches sur la minorité et ses effets dans le droit féodal
> français,? _Bibliothèque de l?Ecôle des Chartes_ 13 [1851-52], 535-37). To
> have reached age 15 in 1153, John I must have been b. ca 1138, so Guy II and
> Ida m. no later than 1137/38. Thus a birth year for Ida ca 1120 seems
> appropriate; she outlived Guy by some 30 years & d. 1177/78. If Ida was b.
> ca 1120, she must have been a granddau. of Henry III of Louvain through one
> of his 3 unknown daus.
>
> Iaroslav Marek (whose site must be handled with caution) gives one of
> Gertrude of Flanders? 3 unknown daus. by Henry III of Louvain as Gertrude,
> m. Count Lambert of Montaigu/Clermont (no dates); Marek does not name the
> other 2 daus. Leo van de Pas? site also gives the name Gertrude for one of
> Henry III?s daus., but no marriage for her nor for the other 2 (unnamed)
> daus. Van de Pas also has a Count Lambert of Montaigu (no
> ancestry/dates/wife) whose dau. Gertrude m. Raoul de Nesle, burggraf of
> Bourges (d. 1153/60) & left issue.
>
> According to van de Pas, a great-grandson of the Nesle-Montaigu marriage was
> John de Nesle, seigneur de Falvy (d. 1292), 2nd husband of Jeanne de
> Dammartin (d. 1279), countess of Ponthieu, John I?s great-granddau.
>
> That Jeanne de Dammartin (d. 1279) & John de Nesle (d. 1292) might both have
> been great-grandchildren of Gertrude of Louvain and Count Lambert of
> Montaigu calls for remark. If this descent is valid, Jeanne and John would
> have been (in modern terms) 2nd cousins & would have required a marriage
> dispensation. That no record of such dispensation has been found does not
> prove none was obtained. It is possible, of course, that Jeanne de
> Dammartin & John de Nesle-Falvy were unaware of such kinship between them.
>
> On the other hand, this offers reason to suppose that Countess Ida of
> Ponthieu was a child not of Gertrude of Louvain and Lambert of Montaigu, but
> of one of the other 2 unknown daus. of Henry III of Louvain and Gertrude of
> Flanders. In modern terms, this would make Jeanne de Dammartin and Jean de
> Nesle 3rd cousins and no dispensation would have been needed.
>
> It is obviously also possible, though less plausible, that Ida was a
> granddau. of Gertrude of Flanders? second marriage to Dietrich of Lorraine:
>
> Three children are ascribed with certainty to Gertrude?s 2nd marriage:
> Alsace?s half-sisters on her marriage & then to that half-sister?s
> [hypothetical] dau. Ida when she married Guy II of Ponthieu. Or they could
> have been granted to Ida herself by her [hypothetical] uncle
> Thierry/Dietrich of Alsace.
>
> Nor is there any reason to suggest that the kinship between John I of
> Ponthieu & Thierry/Dietrich of Flanders came through Thierry/Dietrich?s
> mother, Sibylle of Anjou, sister of Geoffrey V, husband of Matilda the
> Empress. Sibylle?s children were thus first cousins of Henry II of England
> &, if John I?s mother Ida belonged to any of the well-documented families in
> Henry II?s kindred, we would most probably know more about Ida?s origins
Peter Stewart
"Hans Vogels" <volu...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:a300f298.05040...@posting.google.com...
> John,
>
> Someone mentioned that M. Parisse, in "La noblesse lorrain, XIe-XIIIe
> s.", (2 volumes, Rijsel 1976) in vol.2, page 863-865, identified
> Adelheid, wife of duke Simon, as a daughter of Henry III of Louvain. I
> have not been able to verify the mentioned pages so I can't check his
> argumentation.
There is no argumentation on the point - on p. 863 Parisse gave his
bibliography for the ducal family of Lorraine in this period, which is just
one work, the first edition of Georges Poull's book already cited. In that
study Poull had not yet changed his views from agreement with Emile
Duvernoy's conclusion about the marriages & offspring of Duke Thierry.
Parisse added a few notes correcting other details in the genealogy from
Poull's first edition, but does not discuss the aspect considered in this
thread.
Peter Stewart