Balian the Old

[Robert S Baxter]

Does anyone have the connection of Balian the Old of Ibelin to the Vicomtes de Chartres? Runciman says he was a brother but doesn't elucidate.

Bob

[Stewart, Peter]

Runciman didn't pay enough attention to genealogy: the origins of Balian and
a possible relationship to the Le Puiset viscounts of Chartres had been much
discussed before the publication of his magnum opus.

The theory was first advanced by Du Cange, and apart from some questionable
heraldic evidence his main source was in Lignages d'Outremer (Assises de
Jérusalem II), chapter viii, which says that Balin was a brother of "conte
Guilin de Chartres". This was taken to identify Guilduin, viscount of
Chartres in 1028, founder of the dynasty of seigneurs of Le Puiset and
counts of Jaffa, where Balian was constable at that time. The reasons why
this could not be correct are set out in John La Monte's article *The Lords
of Le Puiset on the Crusades* in Speculum 17 (1942), which you can find in
most university libraries. A more distant relationship may still be
possible, although the balance of probabilities is against this.

WH Rudt de Collenberg should also have covered the matter in his article
*Les premiers Ibelins* in Le Moyen Age 71 (1965), reprinted in *Familles de
l'Orient latin XXe-XIV sičcles* (London, 1983) - from memory he indicated a
more lowly origin for the Ibelins was likelier, but I'm not at all sure of
this nearly twenty years after reading it & don't have access at present.

There is bound to be a more recent study of this somewhere. Can someone cite
an up-to-date consideration?

Peter Stewart

[Stewart, Peter]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart, Peter [mailto:Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 October 2000 14:53
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Balian the Old
>
> <snip>

> This was taken to identify Guilduin, viscount of Chartres in 1028,
> founder of the dynasty of seigneurs of Le Puiset and
> counts of Jaffa, where Balian was constable at that time.

Please excuse my reckless disregard for chronology - Balian the Old was of
course constable of Jaffa about a century after his purported brother was
viscount of Chartres, which is not the least compelling reason why the
information is suspect.

Peter Stewart

[Todd A. Farmerie]

"Stewart, Peter" wrote:
>
> There is bound to be a more recent study of this somewhere. Can someone cite
> an up-to-date consideration?

I don't know if it has hit the streets yet, but I suspect the family
should be mentioned in:

Prosopographica et Genealogica: OCCASIONAL PUBLICATIONS OF THE UNIT FOR
PROSOPOGRAPHICAL RESEARCH, Vol. 4: The Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem. A
Dynastic History, 1099-1125, Alan V. Murray, ISBN 1-900934-03-5, Price
£24/$36/Euro 38 [available from late August 2000]

taf

[Stewart, Peter]

I hope so - my vague impression was that this study concentrated on the
royal families. Before 1125 Balian was merely the constable of Hugues du
Puiset, count of Jaffa, against whom he later led a revolt of barons
supporting the interests of the king. He didn't receive the newly built
castle of Ibelin (Yebna) until 1141, possibly as compensation for losing his
office in Jaffa around 1130, so his family origins may not feature
prominently in Murray's book.

Peter Stewart

[Robert S Baxter]

Peter,

Thank you for your input. It confirm what I suspected that Balian was a generation or two too young to be the brother of the V de Chartres.

Bob

[jean...@my-deja.com]

If my memory is not failing me, the best authority on crusader families
and dynasts is Count Rüdt-Collenberg. I even believe he is the
aknowledged specialist on the Ibelin family. He as writen several books
and articles (in French)pertaining to that family. He uses contemporary
sources (latin, byzantine, armenian, etc). Again if my memory is
correct, the Balian do not have any relation to the vicomtes de
Chartres. They are descended from a certain Barisanus, of undetermined
christian (Syrian ?) local origine, who rose to power with the arrival
of the Crusaders. For the complete informations, please look for Rüdt-
Collenberg books.I hope this will help.
With my best regards,
Jean Bunot.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[jean...@my-deja.com]

After making a rapid verification, it would appear that in a later
article Count Rüdt-Collenberg proposes another origin for the Ibelin
dynasty. Barisanus, castellan of Jaffa and earliest known ancestor of
the Ibelin family,would rater have a yet undetermined Italian
background (probably Pisa-Sardinia or Norman Sicilian). In any case, he
still had absolutely no family connection to the vicomtes de Chartres.
Jean Bunot