Piacenze

[Mardi Carter]

I have two individuals who may be one or at least of the same family.
Does anyone know?

(1) Riprand de Piacenza whose unnamed daughter married Oddo (d. 961) and
descended to the Monferrat family?

(2) Riprand de Piacenza's daughter Railendo married Oberto II (d.
1014/21), Marq. of the Este family.

mbc

[Carcano Lorenzo]

1- The first aleramics were Guglielmo (count), his son Aleramo (Count and
marquis), and g.sons Anselmo (m. Gisla, an "obertenga", i.e. from the clan
of the Obertenghi from which the Este, Pallavicini and Malaspina come) and
Oddone, who is apparently the one (Oddo) you are quoting. However Anselmo
and Ottone were still alive in 961, as in 991 they founded the monastery of
Spigno. Actually in 961 his father Aleramo and his mother Gerberga, dau of
Berengario II, were still alive). It is true that the Monferrat family comes
from Oddone thru Guglielmo, Ottone, Guglielmo, Ranierei etc.
In conclusion are we talking of the same Oddo?

2-My genealogy of d'Este starts with Alberto Azzo II (996-1097, yes a
biblical age!), so I cannot help you, unless Oberto II were the father of
Azzo II, which I don't know.

However thru the "obertenga" GISLA and thru Riprand de Piacenza there might
be a cross connection between the Aleramic and the Este.

Will anyway try to find out something more.
Hope it helps Regards Lorenzo Carcano

Mardi Carter ha scritto nel messaggio <369E44...@valley-internet.net>...

[Francisco Antonio Doria]

>1- The first aleramics were Guglielmo (count), his son Aleramo (Count and
>marquis), and g.sons Anselmo (m. Gisla, an "obertenga", i.e. from the clan
>of the Obertenghi from which the Este, Pallavicini and Malaspina come) and
>Oddone, who is apparently the one (Oddo) you are quoting. However Anselmo
>and Ottone were still alive in 961, as in 991 they founded the monastery of
>Spigno. Actually in 961 his father Aleramo and his mother Gerberga, dau of
>Berengario II, were still alive). It is true that the Monferrat family comes
>from Oddone thru Guglielmo, Ottone, Guglielmo, Ranierei etc.
>In conclusion are we talking of the same Oddo?

This name Alerame which appears in one of the branches of the Dorias and
is borne by one of the Genoese Dorias documentally attested in Portugal
in the 16th century was probably incorporated through female lines, but
Battilana gives no hint as to its origin. One of the later Archbishops of
Genoa was called Aleramo Pallavicini, and I suspect that he was descended
from this Doria line.

Chico Doria

Francisco Antonio Doria
fad...@rio.com.br
Prix Caumont-La Force 1995
Tels.: 021-547-5541/024-231-4133/021-9943-6968
Visit http://www.rio-v.com/costadoria
Visit http://www.eco.ufrj.br/cdoria

[Richard Borthwick]

At 08:53 PM 16/01/99 +0100, you wrote:
>1- The first aleramics were Guglielmo (count), his son Aleramo (Count and
>marquis), and g.sons Anselmo (m. Gisla, an "obertenga", i.e. from the clan
>of the Obertenghi from which the Este, Pallavicini and Malaspina come) and
>Oddone, who is apparently the one (Oddo) you are quoting. However Anselmo
>and Ottone were still alive in 961, as in 991 they founded the monastery of
>Spigno. Actually in 961 his father Aleramo and his mother Gerberga, dau of
>Berengario II, were still alive). It is true that the Monferrat family comes
>from Oddone thru Guglielmo, Ottone, Guglielmo, Ranierei etc.
>In conclusion are we talking of the same Oddo?
>

>2-My genealogy of d'Este starts with Alberto Azzo II (996-1097, yes a
>biblical age!), so I cannot help you, unless Oberto II were the father of
>Azzo II, which I don't know.
>
>However thru the "obertenga" GISLA and thru Riprand de Piacenza there might
>be a cross connection between the Aleramic and the Este.
>
>Will anyway try to find out something more.
>Hope it helps Regards Lorenzo Carcano
>
>Mardi Carter ha scritto nel messaggio <369E44...@valley-internet.net>...
>I have two individuals who may be one or at least of the same family.
>Does anyone know?
>
>(1) Riprand de Piacenza whose unnamed daughter married Oddo (d. 961) and
>descended to the Monferrat family?
>
>(2) Riprand de Piacenza's daughter Railendo married Oberto II (d.
>1014/21), Marq. of the Este family.
>
>mbc
>

Oberto II (d. about 1014) was the father of Adalberto Azzo I (d.<1050) and
grandfather of Adalberto Azzo II (d.1097) and hence of the Estensi. Oberto
II was also the father of Oberto III (a.k.a. Obizzo I) from whom the
Malaspina. Oberto II’s brother Adalberto I (d.1001/02) headed up the other
branch of the family from which arose the Pallavicino, Gavi, Parodi and
Massacorsica families. The father of Oberto II and Adalberto I was Oberto I
(d.<975).

Adalberto I had a son Oberto* (he is not assigned a number so I mark him
with ‘*’) who dead v.p. by 996 and two daughters one of which was Gisla
wife of Anselmo I (son of Aleramo) whose brother Oddo married an unnamed
daughter of of Riprando count of Piacenza.

The foregoing account has a bearing on the issue of the Obertenghi marriage
to Railenda di Piacenza. She married Oberto II.

Riprando I de Basilicaduce (dead by 988) is attested as a vassal of
Berengar II in 945. He had two sons, Gandolfo count of Verona in 967 and
Riprando II (dead by 999) count of Piacenza 964-990. Gandolfo had a son,
Riprando III who was count of Verona in 993. Riprando II had a son,
Lanfranco who was count of Piacenza 999-1021. Lanfranco married Berta
sister of Oberto* and daughter of Adalberto I above. Railenda and the
unnamed wife of Oddo were daughters of Riprando II. Riprando had a wife
Berta whose identity is in dispute. Violante maintains that she was a
member of the Bernardengi clan and specifically that she was the daughter
of Bernardo III (dead by 996) count of Parma 964, in exile 970-974 and
count of Pavia in 991 by his wife Rolinda (i.e. Rotlinde) daughter of king
Hugo of Italy. Jackman maintains that she is probably a daughter of Rudolf
II king of Burgundy by Bertha daughter of Burkhard II duke of Swabia and
his wife Reginlint.

Jackman correctly wants to maintain as a hypothesis that Berta wife of
Olderico Manfredi margrave of Turin was the daughter of Oberto II and
Railenda. The onomastic argument is seductive when one considers the
transmission of the names ‘Bertha’/’Berta’ and ‘Railenda’ (a variant form
of Reginlint). The only (?) problem with this hypothesis is that Violante
and others see Berta wife of Olderico Manfredi as the daughter of Oberto*.
The name ‘Berta’ already occurred in the Obertenghi namely in Berta the
sister of Oberto* who married Lanfranco di Piacenze.

Violante, C "Alcune caratteristiche della strutture familiari in Lombardia,
Emilia e Toscana durante i secoli IX-XII" in Duby, G & Le Goff, J (eds)
*Famiglia e parentela nell'Italia medievale* (Bologna, 1977) Tav.2 & 5.

F Cognasso *Il Piemonte nell'eta sveva* (Torino, 1968) Tav.VI.

Jackman, D C *The Konradiner: A Study in Genealogical Methodology*
(Frankfurt am Main, 1990) 102-103, 105.

[Richard Borthwick]

A correction. At the start of my last para. in my previous post I said that
I thought Jackman was correct in making Berta the daughter of Oberto II and
Railenda. I don't think he is correct. I started out to say something I did
agree with but then did some cut and pasting and didn't delete the adverb!
Sorry about that.

Richard

[mqs...@gmail.com]

Carcano Lorenzo:

> 1- The first aleramics were Guglielmo (count), his son Aleramo (Count and
> marquis), and g.sons Anselmo (m. Gisla, an "obertenga", i.e. from the clan
> of the Obertenghi from which the Este, Pallavicini and Malaspina come) and
> Oddone, who is apparently the one (Oddo) you are quoting. However Anselmo
> and Ottone were still alive in 961, as in 991 they founded the monastery of
> Spigno.

marquess Oddone del Vasto was no longer alive in 991, because he is referred to as deceased one. Apparently he died relatively young, but leaving sons. His sons in 991 (whom I assume were very underage at that point) were listed in addition to their uncle Anselmo and aunt Gisla as benefactors of Spigno.

Actually in 961 his father Aleramo and his mother Gerberga, dau of
> Berengario II, were still alive).

daughter of Berengar II was not the mother of Anselmo nor Oddone. They surely were born of an earlier wife.

It is true that the Monferrat family comes
> from Oddone thru Guglielmo, Ottone, Guglielmo, Ranierei etc.
> In conclusion are we talking of the same Oddo?
>
> 2-My genealogy of d'Este starts with Alberto Azzo II (996-1097, yes a
> biblical age!)

It would still be sufficient, and is more plausible, if Adalberto Azzo II were born in est 1010

, so I cannot help you, unless Oberto II were the father of
> Azzo II, which I don't know.
>
> However thru the "obertenga" GISLA and thru Riprand de Piacenza there might
> be a cross connection between the Aleramic and the Este.

there were several connections between the Este (the Obertenghi) and the Aleramici. No need for that much of a circuitous route for that.
However, seemingly a branch of Aleramici (the Montferrat) and a branch of Obertenghi (the Este) were both descended from Riprando.

>
> Will anyway try to find out something more.
> Hope it helps Regards Lorenzo Carcano
>
> Mardi Carter ha scritto nel messaggio <369E44...@valley-internet.net>...
> I have two individuals who may be one or at least of the same family.
> Does anyone know?
>
> (1) Riprand de Piacenza whose unnamed daughter married Oddo (d. 961) and
> descended to the Monferrat family?

Oddone was born around 950 and died before 991

>
> (2) Riprand de Piacenza's daughter Railendo married Oberto II (d.
> 1014/21), Marq. of the Este family.

Oberto II was margrave of Genova. the Marca Obertenga.

Oberto II was pretty much of the same generation as Oddone (I would bet no more than a decade in maximum between them, and possibly no difference). Both were younger sons of fathers who had to been born before c920. In that sense, it is plausible if their wives were sisters.