Re: Descendants of Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne

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WJho...@aol.com

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Jul 29, 2005, 5:41:23 PM7/29/05
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In a message dated 7/29/05 11:46:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:

<< ..B3. (by 1) Rohese de Lucy, +after 1225, m. (1) before 1194 John de
Dover (+about 1198); m. (2) before 1205 Nicholas Fitz Alan
...C1. Fulbert de Dover III, of Chilham, Kent, *about 1178, +about
1204, m. Isabel Briwere (+1233) >>

On the issue of Fulbert being son of Rohese. What source tells us his
approximate birth year ? And what source gives us his wife?
If, as you have it, he was born abt 1178, then would not his mother's
marriage which created him, be bef 1178 instead of bef 1194 as you now have it ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jul 29, 2005, 5:44:44 PM7/29/05
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WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> If, as you have it, he was born abt 1178, then would not his mother's
> marriage which created him, be bef 1178 instead of bef 1194 as you now have it ?
> Thanks
> Will Johnson

Yes. DR

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

unread,
Jul 29, 2005, 5:46:25 PM7/29/05
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Please find below an extended pedigree of the descendants of Sir
Richard de Lucy, Chief Justiciar of England (died 1179), and his wife,
Rohese of Boulogne. Should anyone find any corrections or additions to
the pedigree below, I'd appreciate it if they would post them here on
the newsgroup.

One person who has been omitted from the pedigree is Maud de Lucy, wife
of Sir Nicholas de Segrave, 1st Lord Segrave (died 1295). Maud's
maiden name is found in an ancient Segrave pedigree recorded in
Chaucombe Priory cartulary published by Nichols. She was almost
certainly the daughter of Geoffrey de Lucy (died 1252), of Newington,
Kent, Dallington, Northamptonshire, etc., by his wife, Nichole _____,
widow of Robert Marmion. However, I believe further research is needed
before Maud can confidently be placed as a child of this set of
parents.

As posters have time, I'd enjoy seeing their individual descents from
Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne posted here on the
newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
EXTENDED PEDIGREE OF LUCY FAMILY OF CHIPPING ONGAR, ESSEX

Richard de Lucy, of Chipping Ongar, Essex, Chief Justiciar of England,
+14 July 1179, son of Aveline (kinswoman and heiress of William Goth);
m. say 1135 Rohese of Boulogne (+before 1151)
.A1. Geoffrey de Lucy, +before 1179, m. (1) _____; m. (2) _____
..B1. (by 1) Richard de Lucy, +before Mich. 1182
..B2. (by 1) Herbert de Lucy, *about 1171, +before 1189


..B3. (by 1) Rohese de Lucy, +after 1225, m. (1) before 1194 John de
Dover (+about 1198); m. (2) before 1205 Nicholas Fitz Alan
...C1. Fulbert de Dover III, of Chilham, Kent, *about 1178, +about
1204, m. Isabel Briwere (+1233)

....D1. Rohese (or Rose) de Dover (+1261), m. (1) Richard Fitz Roy (or
de Warenne, de Chilham), of Chingford Earls, Little Wyham, and Great
Wenden, Essex (+1246); m. (2) before 1253 William de Wilton (+14 Apr.
1264)
.....E1. Richard de Dover, of Chilham, Kent, +before 1261, m. before 2
Dec. 1247 Maud of Angus (+1261), Countess of Angus, widow of John Comyn
and Gilbert de Umfreville
......F1. Richard de Dover, +1266, m. Joan de Creye (+after 1302)
......F2. Isabel de Dover (or de Chilham), +18 Mar. 1291/2, m. (1)
before June 1266 David de Strathbogie, 8th Earl of Atholl (+Tunis
1270); m. (2) after 2 Nov. 1270 Alexander de Baliol, of Cavers,
Roxburghshire (+1311)
.....E2. Isabel de Dover, +7 July 1276-7, m. about 12 July 1247
Maurice de Berkeley, of Berkeley, Gloucestershire (*1218, +4 Apr. 1281)
......F1. Maurice de Berkeley
......F2. Thomas de Berkeley, 1st Lord Berkeley, *about 1251, +23 July
1321, m. 1267 Joan de Ferrers (+19 March 1309/10)
......F3. Robert de Berkeley
......F4. Simon de Berkeley
......F5. Maud de Berkeley
.....E3. Lora (or Lorette) de Dover, +after 26 Apr. 1254, m. before 7
June 1248 William Marmion, of Tanfield, Yorkshire (+1275-6)
......F1. John Marmion, 1st Lord Marmion, *about 1255, +1322, m. Isabel
_____, widow of Ralph de Plaiz (she +1314)
..B4. (by 1) Maud de Lucy, m. William de Beauchamp
...C1. Maud de Lucy, +about 1243, m. (1) before Sept. 1195 Geoffrey de
Lascelles; m. (2) 1214 Richard de Rivers (+1222)
....D1. (by 2) Richard de Rivers, of Chipping Ongar and Stanford
Rivers, Essex, +before 25 Apr. 1243, m. before 2 Nov. 1241 Margery
Biset (+Dec. 1256)
.....E1. John de Rivers, of Chipping Ongar and Stanford Rivers,
Essex,*about 1239/40, +before 1 Apr. 1294, m. (1) Mary de Tany; m. (2)
before 1268 Maud de Creye; m. (3) Christian _____ (+after 1295)
.....E2. Maud de Rivers, +after 1255
....D2. (by 2) Baldwin de Rivers, +1256
....D3. (by 2) John de Rivers
.....E1. John de Rivers, +after 1271
...C2. Sarah de Lucy, +after 1236, m. before 1199 William de Lascelles,
of Normandy
..B5. (by 2) Geoffrey de Lucy, of Newington, Kent, Cublington,
Buckinghamshire, Little Gaddesden, Hertfordshire, Dallington,
Northamptonshire, etc., +1234, m. 1207 Juliane le Despenser, widow of
William Bardolf and Peter de Stokes (she +after 1227)
...C1. Geoffrey de Lucy, of Newington, Kent, Dallington,
Northamptonshire, etc., +1252, m. after 1241/2 Nichole _____, widow of
Robert Marmion
....D1. Geoffrey de Lucy, +1284, of Newington, Kent, Cublington,
Buckinghamshire, Little Gaddesden, Hertfordshire, Dallington,
Northamptonshire, etc., m. Ellen _____
.....E1. Geoffrey de Lucy, of Cublington, Buckinghamshire, Little
Gaddesden, Hertfordshire, Dallington, Northamptonshire, etc., *1/10
Aug. 1267, +sh. before 20 Jan. 1304/5, m. Desiderée de Leyburn (+after
1329)
....D1. Amaury/Emery de Lucy, of Luton, Bedfordshire, +1276/96
....D1. (daughter) de Lucy
....D1. (daughter) de Lucy
...C2. Amaury de Lucy, of Newington, Kent, +after 1276
...C3. Richard de Lucy
..B6. (by 2) Robert de Lucy, clerk, styled "nephew" [nepoti] of Godfrey
de Lucy, Bishop of Winchester, +after 1189
.A2. Godfrey de Lucy, Bishop of Winchester, +1204
..B1. John de Lucy
..B2. Geoffrey de Lucy, Dean of St. Paul's, Archdeacon of London, +1241
.A3. Maud de Lucy, +after c. 1175, m. before 1161 Walter Fitz Robert,
of Little Dunmow, Essex (*before 1136, +1198)
..B1. Richard Fitz Walter, +after 1175
..B2. Robert Fitz Walter, of Little Dunmow, Essex, Magna Carta Surety,
+1235, m. (1) before 1199 Gunnor de Valoines; m. (2) after 27 Dec. 1207
Rohese _____
...C1. (by 1) Maud Fitz Robert (+before 1214), m. Geoffrey de
Mandeville, 5th Earl of Essex (+23 Feb. 1215/6)
...C2. (by 1) Christian Fitz Robert, +about 17 June 1232, m. (1) before
18 Nov. 1220 William de Mandeville, 6th Earl of Essex (+8 Jan. 1226/7);
m. (2) before 15 May 1227 Raymond de Burgh (+1 July 1230)
...C3. (by 2) Walter Fitz Robert, of Little Dunmow, Essex, *about 1219,
+1258, m. Ida Longespée (+after 1261)
....D1. Robert Fitz Walter, of Little Dunmow, Essex, *1247, +1326, m.
(1) 1259 Devorguille de Burgh (*about 1255-6, +1284); m. (2) 1290
Eleanor de Ferrers (+after 1303); m. (3) 1308 Alice de Montfort, widow
of Warin de Lisle (she +after 1319)
....D2. Ela Fitz Walter, +after 1303, m. William de Oddingseles, of
Solihull, Warwickshire (+1295)
.....E1. Edmund de Oddingseles
.....E2. Ida de Oddingseles, Prioress of Wraxall, +before 1328, m. (1)
Roger de Herdeburgh, of Prilleston, Norfolk (+ 1284); m. (2) after 29
Sept. 1286 John de Clinton, 1st Lord Clinton (+1311)
.....E3. Ela de Oddingseles, m. (1) Peter de Bermingham; possibly m.
(2) Philip Purcel
.....E4. Alice de Oddingseles, m. Maurice or Thomas Caunton
.....E5. Margaret de Oddingseles, *about 1277, +about 1330, m. (1) John
de Grey, of Rotherfield, Oxfordshire (+1311); m. (2) before 1316 Robert
de Moreby, of Moreby, Yorkshire (+1335)
....D3. Katherine Fitz Walter (nun at Lacock)
....D4. Lora Fitz Walter (nun at Lacock)
..B3. Walter Fitz Walter, clerk, +after c. 1181/4
..B4. Maud Fitz Walter, *about 1161, m. (1) William de Luvetot, of
Sheffield, Yorkshire (+1181); m. (2) before 26 Jan. 1195/6 Ernulf de
Mandeville, of South Mimms, Middlesex (+after 1199)
...C1. (by 1) Maud de Lovetot, *about 1178, +after 1247, m. before 1201
Gerard de Furnival (+1218 Jerusalem)
....D1. Thomas de Furnival, of Sheffield, Yorkshire, + Damietta 1237/8,
m. Bertha de Ferrers (+after 1278/9)
.....E1. Gerard de Furnival, +before 18 Oct. 1261, m. Maud Fitz John
(+1301)
.....E2. Thomas de Furnival, of Sheffield, Yorkshire, +12 May 1291, m.
_____
......F1. Thomas de Furnival, 1st Lord Furnival, +1352, m. (1) before
Jan. 1272/3 Joan le Despenser; m. (2) before 8 June 1322 Elizabeth de
Montfort, widow of William de Montagu (she +1354)
......F2. Eleanor de Furnival, +after 1302/3, m. (1) before 1276 John
de Verdun, of Brixworth, Northamptonshire (+1295); m. (2) Richard de
Brewes
.....E3. _____ de Furnival, m. after 13 Apr. 1238 Roger de Mowbray, of
Thirsk, Yorkshire (*about 1220, +1263)
......F1. Joan de Mowbray, m. ca. 1261 Robert de Mohaut, of Hawarden,
Cheshire (+1275)
......F2. Elizabeth (or Isabel) de Mowbray, m. before 1263 Adam de
Newmarch, of Womersley, Yorkshire (+c. 1303)
....E4. Margaret de Furnival, m. (1) Hugh de Neville, of Danby Wiske,
Yorkshire (*about 1232, +about 1282); m. (2) 1284 Hugh de Miton
......F1. Geoffrey de Neville, of Appleby and Santon, Lincolnshire,
+1316
......F2. Bernard de Neville, clerk
......F3. Amabil de Neville, m. _____ de Colville (or Covell)
.....E5. Sarah de Furnival, m. John Beke, Lord Beke (*before 1230,
+1303-4)
......F1. Walter Beke, +1301/4, s.p.
......F2. Alice Beke, +before May 1311, m. William de Willoughby, of
Willoughby in the Marsh, Lincolnshire (+before 29 March 1300)
......F3. Margaret Beke, m. Richard de Harcourt, of Stanton Harcourt,
Oxfordshire (*9 Dec. 1256, +1293)
......F4. Mary Beke, +unmarried
....D2. Gerard de Furnival, of Great Munden, Hertfordshire, +Holy Land
1240, m. Christian Ledet, widow of Henry de Braybrooke (she +1271, bur.
Bushmead Priory)
.....E1. Gerard de Furnival, of Great Mundon, Hertfordshire and Burton
Latimer, Northamptonshire, *1236/40, +1290/1302, m. Isabel _____
......F1. Christian de Furnival, m. William de Eynsford (or Eylesford)
......F2. Lora (or Lorette) de Furnival, m. John de Usflete
.....E2. Joan de Furnival, +after 1245
....D3. William de Furnival, of Gringley, Nottinghamshire, +1264, m.
Ada de Morville
...C2. (by 2) Ernulf de Mandeville, of South Mimms, Middlesex and
Norton Mandeville, Essex, +after 1251, m. before 1228 Galiena de
Dammartin, widow of John Briwerre and Robert de Borgate (she +in or
about 1258)
....D1. John de Mandeville, of Norton Mandeville, Essex, +after 1258
....D2. Hugh de Mandeville, of South Mimms, Middlesex, +after 1268
..B5. Alice Fitz Walter, m. Gilbert Pecche, of Great Bealings, Suffolk
(+ 1212)
...C1. Hamon Pecche, of Great Bealings, Suffolk, +1241, m. Eve _____
.....D1. Gilbert Pecche, of Great Bealings, Suffolk, +1291, m. (1) Maud
de Hastings (+1264 or 1265); m. (2) Joan de Creye (+after 1302)
.....D2. Hamon Pecche, clerk
.....D3. Hugh Pecche
.....D4. Robert Pecche, of Diss, Norfolk, +after 1286
.....D5. Thomas Pecche
.....D6. William Pecche
...C2. Maud Pecche, m. William Lanvaley, of Walkern, Hertfordshire,
Magna Carta Surety (+1217)
....D1. Hawise de Lanvaley, +1249, m. before 1234 John de Burgh, of
Portslade, Sussex, Banstead, Surrey, etc. (+1275)
.....E1. John de Burgh, of Walkern, Hertfordshire, +1280, m. before
1255 Cecily de Baliol (+before 1273)
...C3. Alice Pecche (probable daughter), m. Nicholas de Anesty, of
Ansty and Little Hormead, Hertfordshire
.....D1. Denise de Anesty, +1304, m. (1) Walter Langton, of Langton,
Lincolnshire; m. (2) before 1235 Warin de Munchesney (+about 20 July
1255); m. (3) before 1260 Robert (or Richard) Butiller (+after 1266)
.A4. Alice de Lucy, +before 1219, m. Odinel de Umfreville, of Prudhoe,
Northumberland (+1181)
..B1. Robert de Umfreville, of Prudhoe, Northumberland, +about 1195
..B2. Richard de Umfreville, of Prudhoe, Northumberland, +before Nov.
1226, m. _____
...C1. Gilbert de Umfreville, of Prudhoe, Northumberland, +1245, m. (1)
before 1242 Tiphaine de Baliol, widow of John Fitz Hugh; (2) 1243-4
Maud of Angus (+1261), Countess of Angus, widow of John Comyn
....D1. Gilbert de Umfreville, Earl of Angus, *about 1244, +1307, bur.
Hexham Priory, m. before 1267 Elizabeth Comyn (+1329)
.....E1. Gilbert de Umfreville, +1302/3, m. Margaret de Clare (*about
1287, +1333/4)
.....E2. Robert de Umfreville, Earl of Angus, *about 1277, +12 Apr.
1325, bur. Newminster Abbey, m. (1) before 1303 Lucy de Kyme; m. (2)
Eleanor de Clare (+1368), widow of Richard Marmaduke
.....E3. Thomas de Umfreville, of Redesdale, +after 7 Feb. 1304/5
...C2. William de Umfreville, +1295/6
...C3. Robert de Umfreville, of Chollerton, Northumberland, +before
1257, m. Eve _____ (+after 1276)
....D1. Richard de Umfreville, insane 1280, +before 10 Nov. 128
....D2. Gilbert de Umfreville, +before 29 Mar. 1269
....D3. William de Umfreville, of Elsdon, Northumberland, +after 1314
....D4. Ingram de Umfreville, +after 1314, m. ______ de Baliol
...C4. Odinel de Umfreville
...C5. Sibyl de Umfreville, +after 1242, m. Hugh de Morwick II, of West
Chevington, Northumberland (+c. 1237)
....D1. Hugh de Morwick III, of West Chevington, Northumberland, +c.
1268, m. Juliane de Reaveley (+before 1278/81)
.....E1. Sibyl de Morwick, *about 1247, +26 July 1298, bur. Friars
Minor, Newcastle, m. (1) before 1268 Roger de Lumley (+1277/79, bur.
Friars Minor, Newcastle); m. (2) before Sept. 1284 Laurence de Saint
Maur, of Road, Somerset (+Feb. 1296/7)
......F1. (by 1) Robert de Lumley, *about 1272, +1308, m. Mary Fitz
Marmaduke
......F2. (by 1) Roger de Lumley
......F3. (by 2) Nicholas de Saint Maur
......F4. (by 1 or 2) Sibyl de Lumley (or Saint Maur)
......F5. (by 1 or 2) Margery de Lumley (or Saint Maur)
......F6. (by 1 or 2) Joan de Lumley (or Saint Maur)
......F7. (by 1 or 2) Mary de Lumley (or Saint Maur)
.....E2. Tiphaine de Morwick, *1254, +sh. bef. 28 Aug. 1315, m. before
26 Apr. 1269 John de Bulmer, of Wilton in Cleveland and Bulmer,
Yorkshire (+17 Feb. 1298/9, bur. Guisborough Priory)
......F1. Ralph de Bulmer, 1st Lord Bulmer, *about 1285, +sh. before 16
Feb. 1357, m. before 11 Feb. 1318/9 Alice de Killingholm, widow of
Walter de Fauconberge (she +22 June 1356)
......F2. Eve de Bulmer, +before 25 Nov. 1337, m. Henry Fitz Hugh, 1st
Lord Fitz Hugh (+Ravensworth 1356)
.....E3. Beatrice de Morwick, *about 1258, +after 1284, m. John de
Roseles (+after 1284)
.....E4. Margery de Morwick, nun at Holy Trinity of Bosco, +after 1273
...C6. Margery de Umfreville, m. (1) Roger de Merlay; (2) William de
Lexington
..B3. William de Umfreville, +before 1195
..B4. Gilbert de Umfreville, m. _____
..B5. Margery (or Margaret) de Umfreville (+before 1198), m. William
d'Aubeney III, of Belvoir, Leicestershire (+1236)
...C1. William d'Aubeney IV, of Belvoir, Leicestershire, +1242, m. (1)
Aubrey Biset (+after 1216); m. (2) before 1239 Isabel ____ (+after
1285)
....D1. Isabel d'Aubeney, *about 1233, +1301, m. Robert de Roos (or
Ros), of Helmsley, Yorkshire (+1285)
.....E1. William de Roos, 1st Lord Roos of Helmsley,*about 1255, +1316,
bur. Kirkham Priory, Yorkshire, m. Maud de Vaux (*about 1261, +after
Easter 1312)
.....E2. Robert de Roos, of Wyville and Gedney, Lincolnshire, +1311, m.
Erneburge _____
......F1. James de Roos, of Wyville and Hungerton, Lincolnshire, *about
1302, +30 Sept. 1362, m. before 20 June 1323 Maud Bernake
.....E3. Isabel de Roos, m. Walter de Fauconberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge
(+31 Dec. 1318)
.....E4. Joan de Roos, +13 Oct. 1348, m. John Lovel, 1st Lord Lovel
(*about 1255, +1 Oct. 1310)
.....E5. Mary de Roos, +1326, m. before 1271 William de Brewes
(+Findon, Sussex 6 Jan. 1290/1)
...C2. Odinel d'Aubeney, of Naburn and North Dalton, Yorkshire, +after
1243
...C3. Robert d'Aubeney, of Wyville and Hungerton, Lincolnshire,
+before Aug. 1286, m. Eustache de Fanecourt
...C4. Nicholas d'Aubeney (clerk)
..B6. Alice de Umfreville, m. (1) c. 1185 William Bertram II, of
Mitford, Northumberland (+about 1199); m. (2) Roger Fitz Walter
...C1. Roger Bertram II, of Mitford, Northumberland, +1242, m. Agnes
_____ (+after 7 May 1256)
....D1. Roger Bertram III, of Mitford, Northumberland, +about 1271, m.
in or before 1241 Ida de Roos
....D2. Agnes Bertram, m. Thomas Fitz William, of Sprotborough and
Elmley, Yorkshire (+after 1266)
....D3. Isabel Bertram, +after 1281, m. Philip Darcy, of Nocton,
Lincolnshire (+1264)
.....E1. Norman Darcy, of Nocton, Lincolnshire, *about 1236, +1296, m.
(1) Juliane _____ (+before 15 June 1281); m. (2) before 20 Jan. 1292/3
Margery _____ (+after 19 Feb. 1303), widow of Barnaby de Stieucle,
William de Swineford, and Ralph Rastel
.....E2. Roger Darcy, of Oldcotes, Nottinghamshire, +1284, m. Isabel de
Aton
.....E3. Thomas Darcy, of Scottlethorpe, Lincolnshire, +1299
.....E4. Ralph Darcy, m. Philippe _____
....D4. Christine Bertram, +after 1294, m. (1) in or before 1241
William de Roos, of Mindrum, Northumberland (+before 1269); m. (2)
before 1291 Robert Penbury (+after 1291)
.....E1. (by 1) Robert de Roos, +before 1293
.....E2. (by 1) William de Roos, of Downham, Northumberland, +1296/1309
.....E3. (by 1) _____ de Roos, +before 1309, m. _____ Archer
......F1. John Archer, +1309/20, m. possibly Christine _____ (+after
1348)
.....E4. (by 1) Joan de Roos, +after 1309, m. Walter Wetwange (+after
1309)
......F1. Thomas Wetwange, +after 1336, m. before 1328 Alice _____
(+after 1336)
.....E5. (by 2) Ely Penbury, +after 1312
....D5. Ada Bertram, +after 6 Oct. 1272, m. Simon de Vere, of Goxhill,
Lincolnshire and Sproatley, Yorkshire (*before 1208, +c. 1264)
.....E1. Isabel de Vere, m. William de Aton, of West Ayton, Yorkshire
(+1265)
...C2. William Bertram
..B7. _____ de Umfreville, m. Robert de Lisle
...C1. Peter de Lisle, of Chipchase, Northumberland, styled nephew by
Richard de Umfreville, +after 1261, m. before 1226 Margery _____
....D1. Robert de Lisle, of Chipchase, Northumberland, m. Margery
(+after 1269)
.....E1. Robert de Lisle, of Chipchase, Northumberland, +after 1279
..B8. Emme de Umfreville (possible daughter), +after 1252, m. (1)
Walter Fitz Gilbert, of Bolam; m. (2) 1208 Peter de Vaux (+1256)
.A5. Aveline de Lucy (+after 1206), m. Gilbert de Montfitchet, of
Stanstead Montfitchet and Fryerning, Essex (+1186/7)
..B1. Richard de Montfitchet, of Stanstead Montfitchet, Essex, *before
1178, +1204, m. Millicent _____
...C1. Richard de Montfitchet, of Stanstead Montfitchet, Essex, Magna
Carta Surety, +1267, m. before 1253 Joyce _____, wid. of Gilbert de
Greinville (she +1274)
...C2. Philippe de Montfitchet, m. Hugh de Plaiz, of Iford, Sussex
(+1244)
....D1. Hugh de Plaiz
....D2. Richard de Plaiz, of Iford, Sussex,*about 1228, +1269, m. Joan
_____ (+after 1271)
...C3. Aveline de Montfitchet, +about Nov. 1239, m. about 1214 William
de Forz II, titular Count of Aumale, lord of Holderness and Skipton (+
1241, Mediterranean)
....D1. William de Forz III, titular Count of Aumale, lord of
Holderness and Skipton, +23 May 1260 Amiens, m. (1) before Apr. 1236
Christian of Galloway (+before 29 July 1246); m. (2) 1248/9 Isabel de
Rivers, Countess of Devon (*July 1237, +10 Nov. 1293 Stockwell, Surrey)
...C4. Margaret de Montfichet, m. (1) Hugh de Bolbec III, of Styford,
Northumberland (+after 1224); m. (2) after Oct. 1214 Peter de
Faucomberge, of Rise, Yorkshire (+after Apr. 1230)
....D1. (by 1) Hugh de Bolbec IV, of Styford, Northumberland, +1262, m.
Tiphaine de Baliol
.....E1. Walter de Bolbec V, +1256, m. 1253 Mary de Merlay
.....E2. Hugh de Bolbec V, +before 1262
.....E3. Philippe de Bolbec, *about 1239, +1294, m. before 1262 Roger
de Lancaster (+1291)
......F1. John de Lancaster, of Stanstead, Essex, *about 1266, +1334,
m. Annor _____ (+1338)
......F2. Roger de Lancaster
.....E4. Margery de Bolbec, *about 1241, +1303, m. (1) Nicholas Corbet
(+1280); m. (2) 1281 Ralph Fitz William, of Grimthorpe, Yorkshire
.....E5. Alice de Bolbec, *about 1245/6, +1303, m. Walter de
Huntercombe
.....E6. Maud de Bolbec, *about 1249, m. (1) before 1263 Robert de
Beumes; m. (2) before 1268 Hugh Delaval (+1302)
....D2. (by 2) Walter de Fauconberge, 1st Lord Fauconberge, +1304, m.
Agnes de Brus (+after 1275)
.....E1. Peter de Fauconberge, +young
.....E2. Walter de Fauconberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge, +31 Dec. 1318, m.
(1) Isabel de Roos; m. (2) Alice de Killingholm (+22 June 1356)
.....E3. Anice de Fauconberge, m. Nicholas Engaine, of Colne Engaine,
Essex and Coton, Cambridgeshire (+4 or 10 Dec. 1322)
....D3. (by 2) Aveline de Fauconberge, m. Giles de Goushill, of Goxhill
and Gedney, Lincolnshire (+ after 1268)
.....E1. Peter de Goushill, of Goxhill and Gedney, Lincolnshire, m. Ela
Camoys

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jul 29, 2005, 5:49:43 PM7/29/05
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Perhaps Ian Fettes or Leo van de Pas can calculate for us how many
descents Prince Charles and his former wife, Princess Diana, have from
Sir Richard de Lucy and his wife, Rohese of Boulogne. I imagine it
must run into the thousands.

WJho...@aol.com

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Jul 29, 2005, 6:03:47 PM7/29/05
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In a message dated 7/29/05 11:46:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:

<< ....D1. Gilbert de Umfreville, Earl of Angus, *about 1244, +1307, bur.
Hexham Priory, m. before 1267 Elizabeth Comyn (+1329) >>

"Living Descendents of Blood Royal" gives him a specific death date of 13 oct
1307

Will Johnson

WJho...@aol.com

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Jul 29, 2005, 6:11:33 PM7/29/05
to
In a message dated 7/29/05 11:46:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royala...@msn.com writes:

<< ...C1. William d'Aubeney IV, of Belvoir, Leicestershire, +1242, m. (1)
Aubrey Biset (+after 1216); m. (2) before 1239 Isabel ____ (+after
1285)
....D1. Isabel d'Aubeney, *about 1233, +1301, m. Robert de Roos (or
Ros), of Helmsley, Yorkshire (+1285) >>

D1 (by 2) ?? Was she named for her mother? if so then wouldn't we need to
say "before 1233" for the marriage date?
Thanks
Will

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

unread,
Jul 29, 2005, 6:28:30 PM7/29/05
to

Yes, you are correct. It should say D1 (by 2). Thank you. DR

Leo van de Pas

unread,
Jul 29, 2005, 6:35:37 PM7/29/05
to
I couldn't because of restrictions after about 19 to 20 generations each
generation can take up to an hour to establish. I am sure Ian can do it much
more efficiently but thanks to Charlie McNett and Mike Welch I _may_ have
added more lines which maybe Ian has not got as yet.

_Thousands of lines_ may well be very conservative. For instance Princess
Michael of Kent descends (at least) in 6,226,789 times from Caelwin, King of
Wessex,
19,634,068 times from Charlemagne
101,421 times from Alpin, King of Kintyre
3,442,579 times from King Alfred the Great
120,442 times from King Harold II
189,638 times from William the Conqueror

The same line applying to Prince William of Wales, I am sure, are much
larger in numbers.

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

unread,
Jul 29, 2005, 7:07:55 PM7/29/05
to
Thanks, Leo. I'm sure Ian Fettes can provide a fairly accurate number
of the descents for Prince Charles and Princess Diana. I sent Ian a
copy of the Lucy pedigree several months ago, and we exchanged data at
that time. If he's added the various changes, his database should be
correct as to the descents from Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of
Boulogne.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

Ian Fettes

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 4:33:06 AM7/30/05
to
Hi Douglas,

I am sidetracked for a short while at the moment, but will post a reply as
soon as I can.

Regards,

Ian Fettes

----- Original Message -----
From: <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne

Ian Fettes

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 5:35:05 AM7/30/05
to
Hi Douglas and All,

I have now done the calculations and find that in my database Prince Charles
descends from this couple 2,184 times, Lady Diana descends 6,546 times
therefore giving Princes William and Harry 8,730 descents. Of course, some
of my data has yet to be verified, but at least the figures should be a
guide to the relationships.

Earlier, Leo indicated the number of descents to Princess Michael of Kent
from a number of her ancestors. You might all be interested to know that I
recently assisted Leo in the production of his latest book, _Sinners and
Saints_ (ISBN 0-646-45007-7) that recorded such information in the
presentation of the biographies of selected ancestors. The book is
partially described by Brigitte Gastel Lloyd on her website at
http://worldroots.com/brigitte/booksale.htm if anyone is interested.

Rather than inappropriately using bandwidth here, please make any comments
regarding this work directly to Leo at leova...@netspeed.com.au

Regards,

Ian Fettes

----- Original Message -----
From: <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne

Doug McDonald

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 9:42:41 AM7/30/05
to
Leo van de Pas wrote:


> _Thousands of lines_ may well be very conservative. For instance
> Princess Michael of Kent

Huh? A Transsexual? In the Royal Family??? A strange name for a girl?

Doug

CE Wood

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 11:18:52 AM7/30/05
to
HER ROYAL Highness Princess Michael of Kent is the younger child of the
late Baron Gunther Von Reibnitz and his wife, the late Marianne, nee
Countess Szapary. She was born at Carlsbad in Bohemia on the Estate of
her maternal grandmother Princess Hedwig Windisch - Graetz.

Her Royal Highness descends from ancient European lineage on both sides
of her Family. Having lived in Austria and Australia and travelled
through Africa, Her Royal Highness returned to Vienna to pursue her
historical studies thereafter going to England for a course in the
history of fine arts. While in London, she met His Royal Highness
Prince Michael of Kent, the first cousin of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth
II. The couple married in Vienna in 1978.

Prince and Princess Michael have two children, Lord Frederick and Lady
Gabriella Windsor, and the family divide their time between an
apartment in Kensington Palace and their house on Gloucestershire,
Nether Lypiatt Manor. Princess Michael's other great love is animals,
in particular horses which she rides and breeds with interest and
enthusiasm, and cats both large and small.

Her Royal Highness has an abiding love of history and the arts and with
such a background, it is not surprising that since her marriage she has
written two historical books, both of which were bestsellers and
translated worldwide: "Crowned in a Far Country - Eight Royal Brides "
(Weidenfeld), and "Cupid and the King - Five Royal Paramours" (Harper
Collins). Her third book "The Serpent and the Moon" is published by
Simon & Schuster. It is a biography of Diane de Poitiers, mistress of
King Henri II of France, whose wife was Catherine de Medici.

CE Wood

Leo van de Pas

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 12:41:42 PM7/30/05
to
How silly is Mrs. Doug McDonald?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne

Gordon Banks

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 3:51:26 PM7/30/05
to
On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 14:46 -0700, Douglas Richardson
royala...@msn.com wrote:

>
> As posters have time, I'd enjoy seeing their individual descents from
> Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne posted here on the
> newsgroup.

Douglas:

Here is one for Anne Marbury you may have forgotten, but you have it in
your books, I think.

Starting from your table, D2:

D2. Ela Fitz Walter = William de Oddingseles
Ida de Oddingseles = Roger de Herdeburgh
Ela de Herdeburgh = William le Boteler
Ankaret le Boteler = John le Strange
John le Strange = Mary Fitz Alan
Ankaret le Strange = Richard Talbot
Mary Talbot = Thomas Greene
Thomas Greene = Philppa de Ferrers
Elizabeth Greene = William Raleigh
Edward Raleigh = Margaret Verney
Edward Raleigh = Anne Chamberlain
Bridget Raleigh = John Cope
Elizabeth Cope = John Dryden
Bridget Dryden = Francis Marbury
Anne Marbury

I won't bore people by posting my descent from Anne Marbury, since it
won't apply to many others here.

Here is another for Anne Marbury that you don't have in your books, or
at least I couldn't find it. It is based on an article by F.N. Craig:

D2. Ela Fitz Walter = William de Oddingseles
Margaret de Oddingseles = John de Grey
Joan de Grey = John de Ralegh (F.N. Craig, NEHGR Jan 1991)
John de Ralegh = Rose Helion
Thomas de Ralegh = Agnes Swinford
John Ralegh = Idony Cotesford
William Raleigh = Elizabeth Greene
....same as above from here.

Doug McDonald

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 4:51:48 PM7/30/05
to
CE Wood wrote:

> HER ROYAL Highness Princess Michael of Kent ... met His Royal Highness


> Prince Michael of Kent, the first cousin of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth
> II. The couple married in Vienna in 1978.
>
>

Ah ... a title.

Doug McDonald

Jwc...@aol.com

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 5:18:36 PM7/30/05
to
Dear Doug,
Rather like what One would see and maybe still does see at
formal functions inn which a couple`s arrival is announced " Mr and Mrs
Douglas MacDonald' as a for instance.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

unread,
Jul 31, 2005, 10:07:12 AM7/31/05
to
Dear Ian ~

Thanks so much for posting the information regarding the number of
descents for Princes William and Harry of England from Sir Richard de
Lucy and his wife, Rohese of Boulogne. The total figure 8,730 descents
is simply stunning.

I also find it fascinating that Princes William and Harry's mother,
Princess Diana, has three times the number of descents that their
father, Prince Charles, does.

By any chance, can you calculate the number of descents Rohese of
Boulogne has from Charlemagne?

Again, thanks so much, Ian.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

Ian Fettes

unread,
Aug 1, 2005, 7:00:00 AM8/1/05
to
Hi Douglas,

I show only 10 lines between Charlemagne and Rohese of Bologne, but some of
these may be dubious.

Regards,

Ian Fettes

----- Original Message -----
From: <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne

mj...@btinternet.com

unread,
Aug 1, 2005, 11:30:01 AM8/1/05
to
Thanks for this very interesting series of posts.

In case it is of any interest, I have a descent from A4, B5, C1, D1, E1
William de Roos (d 1316):

Agnes de Roos married Payn, 1st Lord Tibetot
John, 2nd Lord Tibetot married Elizabeth Aspall
Sir Payn de Tibetot married Agnes Wroth
Elizabeth de Tibetot married Sir John Deneys
Elizabeth Deneys married William Hasilden
John Hasilden married Elizabeth Cheney [herself descended from A3]
Katherine Hasilden married James Docwra
John Docwra married Ann St George
Thomas Docwra married Mildred Hales
Ralph Docwra married Susan Hawkings
Thomas Docwra married Catherine Wise
Edward Docwra married Elizabeth Chieveley
Ann Docwra married Joshua Friend
Docwra Friend married Elizabeth (-)
Joshua Friend married Jane Porter
Sarah Friend married Edward Howlett
Thomas Howlett married Lydia Gill
Lydia Howlett married John Plumb
Joseph Plumb married Hannah Moon
Frances Plumb married Joseph Wray
William Wray married Gladys Midgley
Alison Wray married Christopher Reading
MAR

(Thomas Howlett was a Cambridgeshire man who was transported as a
convict to New South Wales in 1817 and is thus a gateway ancestor to
many Australian families.)

mj...@btinternet.com

unread,
Aug 1, 2005, 11:29:33 AM8/1/05
to

Millerf...@aol.com

unread,
Aug 2, 2005, 10:50:11 AM8/2/05
to
A few days ago I posted the following, which does not seem to have found its
way onto the list:-

In his very impressive and valuable post Douglas Richardson wrote
<snip>


....D2. Gerard de Furnival, of Great Munden, Hertfordshire, +Holy Land
1240, m. Christian Ledet, widow of Henry de Braybrooke (she +1271, bur.
Bushmead Priory)
.....E1. Gerard de Furnival, of Great Mundon, Hertfordshire and Burton
Latimer, Northamptonshire, *1236/40, +1290/1302, m. Isabel _____

<snip>

However, Brice Clagett posted here on 8th Oct 2002
<snip>
Sir Gerard Furnival, was I believe of Munden Furnival, Hertfordshire.
According to Extinct Peerage p. 224 he married Joan, dau. and coheir of Hugh de
Morvill, and was himself son of Gerard Furnival and his wife Christian, dau. and
heir of Guischard Ledet. This last Gerard was younger son of Gerard de Furnival
and Maud de Lovetot, and younger brother of Sir Thomas Furnival, of Sheffield,
ancestor of the Lords Furnival. See CP 5:580.
<snip>

Yet again, John Ravilious wrote on 23rd November 2004, identifying Hugh de
Morville (d.1202) and his wife Hawise, daughter of Robert de Stuteville of
Cottingham, Yorks, and widow of William of Lancaster, with their two daughters Ada
and Joan. JR gave Ada's date of death as "after 1229", and stated her to have
been heiress in her issue of the full Morville inheritance, on failure of the
descendants of her sister Joan.
As to the younger sister Joan JR gives her husband as Richard Gernun, rather
than Gerald Furnival, and traces her Gernun issue.

The following day I replied on list to JR, citing HWBradley
(freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/aqwg1411.htm#26738) , who gave Joan as Gerald
Furnival's wife and as the mother of his daughters Lora and Christian Eylesford,
again citing Extinct Peerages. My effort did not attract any reply to date.

Now if Joan did indeed ever marry Gerald Furnival, I wonder what reason
there could be to think that she was the mother of Gerald's children? We know that
he had a daughter Christiana, who married an Eylesford and whose issue
continued. Therefore, if Joan's issue became extinct, she cannot have been
Christiana's mother, can she?
Does this argument explode the statement from Extinct Peerages, cited by Mr
Clagett and Major Bradley? And if Douglas Richardson is right, as he so often
is, in identifying Christina Eylesford's mother as "Isabel", does anybody have
any idea who she was?
MM

Message has been deleted

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

unread,
Aug 2, 2005, 1:13:34 PM8/2/05
to
Dear Michael ~

Thank you for your good post.

You've spotted a common error in the literature regarding the wife of
Gerard de Furnival (died 1290/1302), of Great Mundon, Hertfordshire and
Burton Latimer, Northamptonshire. As you probable know, this couple
has many descendants.

In answer to your question, the correct name of the wife of Gerard de
Furnival is Isabel, which is indicated by a contemporary charter found
in the following source:

Herbert Fowler and Joyce Godber, The Cartulary of Bushmead Priory
(Pubs. Bedfordshire Hist. Rec. Soc. 22) (1945): 246-251.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

< (freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/aqwg1411.htm#26738), who

wils...@paradise.net

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 4:21:58 AM8/3/05
to
On 29 Jul 2005 11:31:30 -0700, "Douglas Richardson
royala...@msn.com" <royala...@msn.com> wrote:


>Rohese of Boulogne. Should anyone find any corrections or additions to
>the pedigree below,

Rohese of Boulogne,
Alice de Lucy

Margery D' Umfreville

William IV, Lord of Belvoir. d'Aubigny

Isabel de Albini

William II, Lord Ros of Helmsley. de Ros

William III, 2nd Baron Ros of Helmsley. de Ros

Thomas, 5th Baron Ros of Helmesley. de Ros

Elizabeth de Ros

John, 7th Lord. KG, Clifford

Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford

John, Sir 9th Lord Clifford

Henry 10th Lord, Lord Vescy. Clifford

Dorothy, Lady. Clifford

Richard, Sir. Lowther
Rohese of Boulogne, is the 12th great grand mother of

Richard, Sir. Lowther

========================
Rohese of Boulogne,

Geoffrey de Lucy

Rohese de Lucy

Fulbert III, of Chillham Castle. de Dover

Rohese, of Dover

Isabel de Dover

Thomas, Ist Lord. de Berkeley

Maurice "The Magnanimous" 2nd Lord B. Berkeley

Isabel, Baroness Clifford. Berkeley

Roger, 5th Lord of Westmoreland. Clifford

Thomas, 6th Lord. Clifford

John, 7th Lord. KG, Clifford

Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford

John, Sir 9th Lord Clifford

Henry 10th Lord, Lord Vescy. Clifford

Dorothy, Lady. Clifford

Richard, Sir. Lowther
Rohese of Boulogne, is the 14th great grand mother of

Richard, Sir. Lowther

========================

Rohese of Boulogne,
Geoffrey de Lucy

Rohese de Lucy

Fulbert III, of Chillham Castle. de Dover

Rohese, of Dover

Richard, Lord of Chilham. de Dover

Isabel de Dover

John, 9th Earl of Atholl. de Strathbogie

David, 10th Earl of Atholl.Ist Lord de Strathbogie

Aymer,knt. de Athol

Isabel de Athol

Margaret Eure

Ralph Pudsey

John Pudsey

Henry Pudsey

Florence Pudsey

Dorothy, Lady. Clifford

Richard, Sir. Lowther
Rohese of Boulogne, is the 15th great grand mother of

Richard, Sir. Lowther

=============================

Rohese of Boulogne,

Maud de Lucy

Robert Fitz Walter

Walter,knt.Lord of Dunmow. Fitz Robert

Ela Fitz Walter

Margaret de Oddingsells

John,Knt.KG.Sir.1st Baron Grey of R. de Grey

Robert,Knt. Sir. Grey

Elizabeth Grey

Eleanor Fitz Hugh

Margaret, Baroness Vescy. de Bromflete

Henry 10th Lord, Lord Vescy. Clifford

Dorothy, Lady. Clifford

Richard, Sir. Lowther

Rohese of Boulogne, is the 11th great grand mother of

Richard, Sir. Lowther

**********************


Brendan Wilson

To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

Leo van de Pas

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 12:20:49 PM8/3/05
to
Dear Brendan,

Thanks for these lines. I started to compare them with the information I
have.
I found that in one line I had a gap in the middle. Richardson's Plantagenet
Ancestry
also has this line and so I started to look, on page 597
11.Margaret Eure
12.Ralph Pudsey, knight. He married three times and dies according to this
page as Sir Ralph Tempest. As his first wife was a Tempest I think this was
a slip.

Does anyone know Richardson's website? Does it have a page with corrections
and additions? If I had found it and this correction had been there, I would
not have sent this message.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <wils...@paradise.net[.]nz>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Sir Richard de Lucy and Rohese of Boulogne

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 12:40:03 PM8/3/05
to
Dear Leo ~

Thank you for mentioning this problem. Much appreciated. You'll be
happy to know this error was caught and corrected in the Magna Carta
Ancestry book. When you have some pennies, I highly recommend you
purchase the Magna Carta Ancestry book. It will be quite helpful to
you. You can contact me offline about ordering details.

If you find an error in either Plantagenet Ancestry or Magna Carta
Ancestry, I encourage everyone to send it to me privately first. I
don't see every post on the newsgroup, and I want to make sure I get
everyone's corrections and additions properly entered into my base
manuscripts.

Since you brought it up, I haven't had time to create a corrections and
additions page on my website. As soon as I finish shipping the rest of
the Magna Carta Ancestry books out, I'll try to start such a page. I
should be finished shipping books that were pre-ordered in the next
couple of weeks.

In the meantime, thanks again for your help, Leo. You're the best!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:

Leo van de Pas

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 5:12:00 PM8/3/05
to
I understand this kind of problem only too well. You do your best and go
over things many times but because of the enormous scope of this book you
cannot catch all. That is why people need others to edit and check, and I
understand this kind of support has been given. I do think the end result
has been worth it.

When Plantagenet Ancestry came out, the book gives early half of 2004, I
understood a website page was planned with corrections and additions. This
is now over a year ago and it seems such a page is needed. With it people
can check whether they are wasting their time making corrections or
additions known.

I do hope that a new edition is going to happen, one that incorporates
corrections and additions as this kind of book can be of enormous assistance
to so many people.

I expect the publisher decided on the size of the pages and the print and
those are magnificent.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Gordon Banks

unread,
Aug 4, 2005, 12:13:43 PM8/4/05
to
Chris's CP correction pages have been wonderful. It would be good to
also have those available for Doug's books, since they are quite
extensive in their coverage and will get more so when he finishes the
other two projected ones.

--
Gordon Banks <g...@gordonbanks.com>

mj...@btinternet.com

unread,
Aug 16, 2005, 3:37:07 PM8/16/05
to
In fact, I have identified four descents from Sir Richard and Rohese:

(1)

1. Sir Richard Lucy m Rohese
2. Alice de Lucy m Odinel de Umfreville
3. Margery de Umfreville m William de Albini
4. William de Albini
5. Isabel de Albini m Robert, 1st Lord de Ros
6. William, 2nd Lord de Ros
7. Agnes de Ros m Payn, 1st Lord Tibetot
8. John, 2nd Lord Tibetot
9. Sir Payn de Tibetot
10. Elizabeth de Tibetot m Sir John Deneys
11. Elizabeth Deneys m William Hasilden
12. John Hasilden
13. Katherine Hasilden m James Docwra
14. John Docwra
etc as in previous post

(2)

1. Sir Richard Lucy m Rohese
2. Alice de Lucy m Odinel de Umfreville
3. Alice de Umfreville m William Bertram
4. Roger Bertram
5. Isabel Bertram m Sir Philip Darcy
6. Sir Norman Darcy
7. Robert Darcy, MP
8. Margaret Darcy m John, (de jure) 3rd Lord Argentein
9. Elizabeth Argentein m Sir Baldwin St George, MP
10. Sir Baldwin St George, MP
11. John St George
12. Sir William St George
13. Sir Richard St George
14. Thomas St George
15. Ann St George m John Docwra - at 14 in (1) above
etc

(3)

1. Sir Richard Lucy m Rohese
2. Aveline de Lucy m Gilbert de Mountfichet
3. Richard de Mountfichet
4. Margaret de Mountfichet m Sir Piers de Fauconberg
5. Walter, 1st Lord Fauconberg
6. Amice de Fauconberg m Sir Nicholas Engaine, MP
7. John, 1st Lord Engaine
8. Elizabeth Engaine m Sir Lawrence Pabenham, MP
9. Catherine Pabenham m Sir William Cheney
10. Sir Lawrence Cheney
11. Sir John Cheney, MP
12. Elizabeth Cheney m John Hasilden - at 12 in (1) above
etc

(4)

1. Sir Richard Lucy m Rohese
2. Matilda de Lucy m Walter FitzRobert
3. Robert FitzWalter
4. Walter FitzRobert
5. Ela FitzRobert m Sir William de Oddingseles
6. Ida de Oddingseles m Roger de Herdeburgh
7. Ela de Herdeburgh m William, 1st Lord Butler of Wem
8. Ankaret le Boteler m John, 2nd Lord Strange of Blackmere
9. Eleanor le Strange m Reynold, 2nd Lord Grey of Ruthin
10. Ida Grey m Sir John Cokayne
11. Elizabeth Cokayne m Sir Lawrence Cheney - at 10 in (3) above
etc

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