Christopher Clarke's wife - - Bolling versus Johnston

[Michael O'Hearn]

There has been somewhat of a controversy raging lately about the identity
of the 18th century Virginia planter Christopher Clarke's wife Penelope.
One theory was that she was Penelope Bolling, supposedly a descendant of
John Rolfe and Pocahontas. The other theory is that she was Penelope
Johnson, daughter of the Scottish colonial family of Edward Johnston and
Elizabeth Walker going back to Aberdeenshire. The answer to the riddle is
neither of these two options. Rather, that she was Penelope Bolling,
daughter of William Bolling of Fairfax County, Virginia who died in 1754,
and his wife Penelope Lucretia Ashley-Cooper, daughter of the first Earl of
Shaftesbury Anthony J. Ashley Cooper by his wife Margaret Spencer. This
can be deduced insofar as Christopher Clarke's presumptive paternal
grandfather Michael Christopher Clark (circa 1620-1678) was Shaftesbury's
special agent in the business of transporting and settling New World
colonists in Barbados and later in Virginia. One of their nine children
happened to be named Bowling Clark, and the Bolling name is repeated in
subsequent generations. Obviously, more documentation is needed to nail
this connection down.

--
Michael O'Hearn

[Brad Verity]

On Oct 11, 12:43 am, "Michael O'Hearn" <michaeloh1...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The answer to the riddle is
> neither of these two options.  Rather, that she was Penelope Bolling,
> daughter of William Bolling of Fairfax County, Virginia who died in 1754,
> and his wife Penelope Lucretia Ashley-Cooper, daughter of the first Earl of
> Shaftesbury Anthony J. Ashley Cooper by his wife Margaret Spencer.

Dear Michael,

Per Collins's Peerage, the 1st Earl of Shaftesbury had no children by
his first wife (Margaret Coventry), nor his third wife (Margaret
Spencer). By his second wife, Lady Frances Cecil, he had 2 sons: the
heir, who became the 2nd Earl of Shaftesbury, and another son Cecil,
who died young:
http://archive.org/stream/collinsspeerageo03coll#page/582/mode/2up

I'm not sure what your source is for the above, but it is leading you
down a phantom limb on the family-tree: no Penelope Lucretia Ashley-
Cooper existed. Plus, if the Earl of Shaftesbury (one of the most
prominent British politicians of the 17th-century) had had a daughter,
the last man he would have seen her married to would be some obscure
Virginian, no matter how large the plantation.

That said, there may well be Clarke/Bolling connections in the New
World, and the Earl of Shaftesbury may have been involved in a
business sense, but certainly not in a bloodline sense.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Bronwen Edwards]

Penelope and Lucretia were said to have been the twin illegitimate daughters of Anthony Ashley-Cooper and a servant on his estate whose surname was Massie/Massey. When I say "were said to have been", this is intended to convey the unproven (but not disproven) status of the belief. One person actually contacted a descendant of Ashley-Cooper to ask about it and was flatly told that it was not true. This, of course, does not disprove it but adds some weight to that side of the scale. While some people have attempted to attach her to Christopher Clarke, even more have tried to attach Penelope to Peter Massie. However, one researcher suggests that the same Penelope married both Clark and Massie and that she was a *granddaughter* of Anthony Ashley-Cooper.

See:
1 A LIFE OF ANTHONY ASHLEY-COOPER, 1ST EARL OF SHAFTESBURY by William Dougal Christie in which it is stated that Margaret Spencer had no children but raised the children by his second wife.
2 A MASSIE FAMILY HISTORY by Evelyn Hepworth Massie, 1972
3 SOME FAMILIES OF REVOLUTIONARY WAR PATRIOTS FROM VIRGINIA AND MARYLAND by Willa MacDuncan Coulter, 1993
4 MASSEY GENEALOGY ADDENDUM by Frank A. Massey, 1979
5 GLEANINGS OF VIRGINIA HISTORY by Jane Martin, 1934
6 RICHMOND, WILLIAM AND TIMOTHY TERRELL: COLONIAL VIRGINIANS by Celeste Jane Terrell, 1934
7 STEVENS-DAVIS AND ALLIED FAMILIES: A MEMORIAL VOLUME by Marie Stevens Walker Wood, 1957
8 GOVERNORS OF KENTUCKY, 1792-1942 by Garrett Glenn Clift 1942
If you have actual new documentation to support your position, please share it. There is a large crowd of Penelope followers anxious to know the truth.
best, Bronwen

[Brad Verity]

On Oct 11, 9:45 pm, Bronwen Edwards <lostcoo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Penelope and Lucretia were said to have been the twin illegitimate daughters of Anthony Ashley-Cooper and a servant on his estate whose surname was Massie/Massey. When I say "were said to have been", this is intended to convey the unproven (but not disproven) status of the belief. One person actually contacted a descendant of Ashley-Cooper to ask about it and was flatly told that it was not true. This, of course, does not disprove it but adds some weight to that side of the scale. While some people have attempted to attach her to Christopher Clarke, even more have tried to attach Penelope to Peter Massie.

Dear Bronwen,

Thank you for this background. But it would be unusual, I think, even
for an illegitimate daughter of the 1st Earl of Shaftesbury, if he had
one, to have been married off to a Virginia planter. If she was
acknowledged and provided for by the earl, he could have made a better
match for her much closer to home, in England. Is there even any
document that proves the first name of the wife of William Bolling of
Fairfax County was 'Penelope'?

Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad

[Michael O'Hearn]

It looks like you are right, Brad. I will stick with Penelope Johnson as
wife of Christopher Clarke. The other theory is that Christopher and
Penelope Clarke's daughter Agnes's husband Benjamin Johnson was a son of
William Johnson and Sarah Penelope Massie, she supposedly being a daughter
of Peter Massey and Shaftesbury's daughter Penelope whose mother was an
unknown Massie. BTW, the source from which the story arose is "The
Bolling, Bowlin, Bolen Families in America before 1800" by Todd Bolen
(1997, Virginia).
--
Michael O'Hearn

[Bronwen Edwards]

Michael, do you have access to the Bolen book? It is not available on Google.
How large is it? Or at least the relevant part? Bronwen

[Michael O'Hearn]

Shaftesbury was quite the controversialist, memorialized in one of Dryden's
works. The Bolling book is out of print. The relevant information can be
found at:

http://www.angelfire.com/nf/burnscharles/pocohontas.html

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/j/o/h/Jonathan-N-Johnson-CA/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0413.html

Note that where it refers to Anthony Ashley-Cooper having "married" a
Massie daughter, the offspring are presumably out of wedlock.

--
Michael O'Hearn

[Bronwen Edwards]

I note that these references do not include my person of interest said to be a daughter of Penelope Cooper and Peter Massie, one Cecilia Massie, born c. 1646 in New Kent County, Virginia, d. c. 1664 in the same county. Cecilia Massie married 1661 Robert Anderson, b. c. 1640 York County, Virginia, and died 1712 in New Kent County, Virginia. Anderson received land in New Kent County from his father, Richard Anderson (1618 London-1702 Gloucester Co., VA) along with 1200 acres for having transported 24 persons to Virginia Colony from England about 23 Oct 1690. He was described as vestryman for St. Peter's Parish in New Kent County in 1686 and 1702. (HISTORICAL SOUTHERN FAMILIES, Vol. XV, p. 202).

Cecilia Massie's family was said to be in Virginia Colony by 1635, failing to explain how she married Anderson in 1661 before his transport of 24 people (and, presumably himself) in 1690. (GENEALOGICAL GLEANINGS OF SIGGINS AND OTHER PENNSYLVANIA FAMILIES, 1918, p. 514).

There have been two pedigrees for Cecilia that have appeared: one has her as daughter of Peter Massie and Lucelia Poindexter. The other has her as daughter of another Massie (from Coddington) and Penelope Cooper, bastard daughter of Anthony Ashley-Cooper. Both are widely seen on-line. If I had to choose between the two, I would suggest Peter Massie and Lucelia Poindexter, but Penelope Cooper and her twin sister, Lucretia, keep popping up. I take note, however, that neither Cecilia Massie nor Robert Anderson have appeared in this thread except from myself even though they theoretically involve the same Penelope.

More confused than ever, Bronwen

[Michael O'Hearn]

It should also be noted that according to the summary of the Bolling book
referenced previously, the Penelope Ashley-Cooper who married Peter Massey
in England was a daughter of Anthony, 2nd Earl of Shaftesbury (1652-1699),
surviving son and heir of Anthony I. Her mother was Dorothy Manners,
Anthony II's wife. Their daughter Sarah Penelope Massie apparently married
William Johnson, and Benjamin Johnson, son of Peter and Sarah, married
Agnes, daughter of Christopher Clarke and Penelope.

--
Michael O'Hearn

[Leo]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael O'Hearn" <michae...@gmail.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Christopher Clarke's wife - - Bolling versus Johnston


> It should also be noted that according to the summary of the Bolling book
> referenced previously, the Penelope Ashley-Cooper who married Peter Massey
> in England was a daughter of Anthony, 2nd Earl of Shaftesbury (1652-1699),
> surviving son and heir of Anthony I. Her mother was Dorothy Manners,
> Anthony II's wife.

---------------- It should be noted that according --------------this to me
indicates uncertainty. And when uncertainty applies we should look a bit
further.

If you go to Burke's Peerage 1999 page 2585, there is not much help as here
is recorded that the 2nd Earl and Dorothy Manners had amongst their children
a younger son Maurice and a daughter Elizabeth who married James Harris and
their son the next Earl.

But if you go to Burke's Peerage 1899 page 1311 there is a full list of the
children, some of the dates have come from other sources.

1.Anthony, 1671-1713 the next earl;
2.John 1672-1693
3.Maurice 1675-1726 who married but had no children
4.Frances married Francis Stonehouse
5.Dorothey died 1749 married Edward Hooper
6.Elizabeth 1681-1744 married James Harris
7.Gertrude who remained unmarried

I have not followed this line but when and where was this Bolling book
published?
As I read from another message, even if Penelope was an illegitimate
daughter it would be highly unlikely she would be married to an American.

I have the feeling this Bolling book is not very reliable.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Their daughter Sarah Penelope Massie apparently married
> William Johnson, and Benjamin Johnson, son of Peter and Sarah, married
> Agnes, daughter of Christopher Clarke and Penelope.
>
> --
> Michael O'Hearn
>

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> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Michael O'Hearn]

Regarding Agnes Clark's marriage, just to give you guys some idea about how
DNA clues work, I was coming up with a match for Okey Johnson, who it turns
out was probably a descendant of Aucke Jansen Van Nuyse (1618-circa 1700) a
master carpenter who was appointed Schepen of Flatbush by the governor
Clove of New Amsterdam. A purported descendant Abraham Brachtheiser
Johnson provided hospitality to George Washington and his crew while on a
surveying mission in 1748 at Patterson Creek Valley in Frederick County,
Virginia. Other likely Johnson descendants settled at Hampshire County
Virginia, later Mineral County, WV. Agnes Clark's' stepfather William
Johnston (circa 1677-1714). Auke's grandson William born 28 September 1679
in New Utrecht, New York. Could they be the same person?

--
Michael O'Hearn

[hierapol...@gmail.com]

Brad, I think your assessment is somewhat dismissive. Stranger things and similar things occur in history. If true, Shaftesbury may indeed have matched an illegitimate daughter or granddaughter to a Virginia planter. There wasn't *that* much scorn heaped upon all colonials. Furthermore, if it is true that C.Clark was S's agent, then that may strengthen the possibilities of a proposed match. As a historian of the Early Moderns, and particularly 17th c. Atlantic world, I argue for the distinct possibility of such a marriage.

[Wjhonson]

Noting that this person
hierapol...@gmail.com

has zero google matches.

Don't be a coward, come forward and reveal yourself if you're going to take on this issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: hierapolisparasol <hierapol...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 27, 2012 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: Christopher Clarke's wife - - Bolling versus Johnston

[Brad Verity]

On Oct 27, 1:43 pm, hierapolispara...@gmail.com wrote:

> Brad, I think your assessment is somewhat dismissive. Stranger things and similar things occur in history. If true, Shaftesbury may indeed have matched an illegitimate daughter or granddaughter to a Virginia planter. There wasn't *that* much scorn heaped upon all colonials. Furthermore, if it is true that C.Clark was S's agent, then that may strengthen the possibilities of a proposed match. As a historian of the Early Moderns, and particularly 17th c. Atlantic world, I argue for the distinct possibility of such a marriage.

I'm dismissive of it because, so far as presented, it lacks
documentary evidence. Let's start with a document that shows the
first name of William Bolling's wife - what is the proof that it was
'Penelope'? Then you need to produce a document that shows that the
1st Earl of Shaftesbury had an illegitimate daughter, even unnamed,
before you can begin to put the two together.

When you enter the territory of illegitimate issue of royals & nobles,
you stumble on a lot of land mines. I take a very conservative
approach in this area - there needs to be mention of an illegitimate
in a will, or another strong legal document, for me to consider the
possibility as valid. Or, of course, public acknowledgment by the
parent of their illegitimate child.

It's not that much further, in my mind, to suggest that otherwise
unidentified wives of the business associates of George Washington
were his illegitimate daughters.

But that's just me - I'm strict on this stuff. For example, I also
feel that Mary Boleyn's Carey offspring should remain in pedigrees &
history books as the children of William Carey - which was their legal
status, if nothing else - until if and when DNA should prove someday
that they were Henry VIII's bastards.

Also, I didn't mean for my statements to imply that colonial planters
were held in scorn or looked down upon by Englishmen. I should have
been clearer - my point was that Virginia was a world away back then,
an incredibly long distance & often dangerous sea passage. If the
Earl of Shaftesbury had an illegitimate daughter whom he cared for and
needed to provide for, he was in a position to easily find a suitable
match for her in England, and so remain close to her socially &
geographically.

Cheers, ------Brad

[pbea...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 at 1:08:10 AM UTC-5, Mike wrote:
> Shaftesbury was quite the controversialist, memorialized in one of Dryden's
> works. The Bolling book is out of print. The relevant information can be
> found at:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/nf/burnscharles/pocohontas.html
>

The book is available on the LDS website. https://dcms.lds.orgdeliveryDeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE972918

[Hans Vogels]

Michael,

If the issue is the identity of Penelopy (wife of Christopher Clarke) then it is not relevant who the presumptive grandfather was of Christopher Clarke, or am I missing something?

If Penelopy is known as Penelopy Bolling it does not seem strange that one of her and Christophers nine children was called Bowling Clark, or were you possibly refering to the paternal "grandfather" Michael Chistopher Clark. Even then I fail to see that it touches the background of Penelopy.

Hans Vogels


Op donderdag 11 oktober 2012 09:43:54 UTC+2 schreef Mike:

[Hans Vogels]

I was not quite awake as I replied to a post from 2012. I now see that idea came to mind because of the fact that the grandfathers new each other and the "American" was employed by the "Englishman".

As I take it from later posts, the name of Penelopy was not known. From the provided info in the initial post I fail to see the difference between theory one and three. Was there another Bolling descendance theory?

Hans Vogels



Op dinsdag 3 maart 2015 08:09:24 UTC+1 schreef Hans Vogels:

[patrodg...@gmail.com]

Just a short note.
I am a direct descendant of Penelope Bolling (dau of John F.Bolling and Mary Kennon)who married Christopher Clark.My matches are on Gedmatch no.1758725.

And I also have through another line of my family,West,Knollys,Boleyn matches to Mary Boleyn and William Carey.Their children were not children of Henry V111.
I hope nobody minds me putting my voice across.Pat Rodgers

[Bronwen Edwards]

On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 3:58:59 AM UTC-8, patrodg...@gmail.com wrote:
> Just a short note.
> I am a direct descendant of Penelope Bolling (dau of John F.Bolling and Mary Kennon)who married Christopher Clark.My matches are on Gedmatch no.1758725.
>
> And I also have through another line of my family,West,Knollys,Boleyn matches to Mary Boleyn and William Carey.Their children were not children of Henry V111.
> I hope nobody minds me putting my voice across.Pat Rodgers

What is your source for asserting that the Carey children were not Henry's bastards? I'm not arguing the point, but my understanding is that scholars still consider it to be a possibility and regard this to be unproven one way or the other. I might add that Mary Bolyn may not have been sure of their paternity herself.

In regard to the other topic, in your research on Penelope Bolling, do you have anything to add to the discussion about her? Another source of information? Information that may have come down through your family about her that has not already been noted in this ancient thread? You are more than welcome to put your voice forward :-].