Descendants of Eleanor (Pole) Verney
Douglas Richardson
Pedigree charts prepared during the reign of King Henry VII show that
his kinswoman, Eleanor Pole, daughter of Sir Geoffrey and Edith (Saint
John) Pole, married Ralph Verney, Esq., and had issue, a son, John
Verney, and other children (not named)[Reference: Collectanea Top. &
Gen., 1 (1834): 310].
Lipscomb's History & Antiquities of the County of Buckingham, 1
(1847): 178 includes a chart of Verney family descendants. It shows
that Sir Ralph Verney (died 1478) and his wife, Eleanor Pole, had four
children, Sir John, Sir Ralph, Margaret (wife of Sir Edward Raleigh)
and Beatrice (wife of ____ Danvers).
Is anyone knowledgeable of the Verney family who can tell if the list
of children assigned by Lipscomb to Eleanor (Pole) Verney is correct?
Also, does anyone know of any American descendants of this woman?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Kay Allen AG
ancestress of, among others, Grace Chetwode and the Marburys. However, I
believe that if you check the chronology, she married the elder Ralph's
son Ralph, thereby removing this ancestry. The archives may have more on
this.
Kay Allen AG
Tim Powys-Lybbe
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup:
>
> Pedigree charts prepared during the reign of King Henry VII show that
> his kinswoman, Eleanor Pole, daughter of Sir Geoffrey and Edith (Saint
> John) Pole,
Geoffrey called himself Poole (Testamenta Vetusta) and this spelling for
this family is to be found in later Visitation records. Further he was
not, it seems, a knight, much as his eldest son Richard was.
> married Ralph Verney, Esq., and had issue, a son, John
> Verney, and other children (not named)[Reference: Collectanea Top. &
> Gen., 1 (1834): 310].
>
> Lipscomb's History & Antiquities of the County of Buckingham, 1
> (1847): 178 includes a chart of Verney family descendants. It shows
> that Sir Ralph Verney (died 1478) and his wife, Eleanor Pole, had four
> children, Sir John, Sir Ralph, Margaret (wife of Sir Edward Raleigh)
> and Beatrice (wife of ____ Danvers).
>
> Is anyone knowledgeable of the Verney family who can tell if the list
> of children assigned by Lipscomb to Eleanor (Pole) Verney is correct?
> Also, does anyone know of any American descendants of this woman?
I found a mention of this couple in Rev Arthur H Plaisted's "The Manor
and parish records of Medmenham, Bucks" pub by Longmans, Green & Co in
1925, pages 67-73. ... But I have mislaid the photocopy I took of
those pages.
Medmenham was Geoffrey Poole's home manor.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
leo van de pas
For what it is worth, Gerald Paget agrees with the line displayed by Douglas
Richardson. What Richardson, sadly, did not do was give us a fuller picture
by simply adding David Faris's remark that Ralph Verney, Lord Mayor of
London, had another wife Emme.
(I presume you using the name Richard Verney, was a typo?)
This makes the whole picture a little muddled. According to Paget Ralph
Verney, Lord Mayor of London in 1465, died in June 1478. I cannot find any
indications when John Verney was born, but his wife, Margaret Whittington,
was born before 1455. Daughter Margaret (by Emme) see PA edition 1, page
184, married in 1467.
We can start guessing now, who was the first wife, Emme or Eleanor Pole, or
are you correct and are Paget and Richardson wrong? Just a thought.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Allen AG" <all...@pacbell.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Eleanor (Pole) Verney
> If the marriage to Richard Verney d. 1478 were true, she would be the
> ancestress of, among others, Grace Chetwode and the Marburys. However, I
> believe that if you check the chronology, she married the elder Ralph's
> son Ralph, thereby removing this ancestry. The archives may have more on
> this.
>
> Kay Allen AG
>
> Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
Kay Allen AG
leo van de pas wrote:
> Dear Kay,
> For what it is worth, Gerald Paget agrees with the line displayed by Douglas
> Richardson. What Richardson, sadly, did not do was give us a fuller picture
> by simply adding David Faris's remark that Ralph Verney, Lord Mayor of
> London, had another wife Emme.
Leo, I would love to be wrong. This would give a whole new bunch of goodies to
work on :-)
>
>
> (I presume you using the name Richard Verney, was a typo?)
Indeed. Richard was a tune-out on my part for Ralph.
>
>
> This makes the whole picture a little muddled. According to Paget Ralph
> Verney, Lord Mayor of London in 1465, died in June 1478. I cannot find any
> indications when John Verney was born, but his wife, Margaret Whittington,
> was born before 1455. Daughter Margaret (by Emme) see PA edition 1, page
> 184, married in 1467.
According to Wedgwood, John was an MP whose dates were 1450-1505 and that
Eleanor was the first wife and Emma, widow of Pickering was the second.
Unfortunately, Wedgwood is frequently wrong :-(
Sir Ralph the elder d. in 1478, John was his eldest son and heir. There appears
to have been no guardianship, so we can figure he was born before 1457. The
question is, how much before?
Under Bierton, Bucks. in VCH Bucks. p. 322, it relates that the elder Ralph
purched it in 1469 and settled it on his younger son, Ralph. The younger Ralph
settled it on John Cheney for the use of Ralph and his wife, ELEANOR, and their
son John. See Ct. of Requests, bdle. iv, no. 3.
My post querying the accuracy of this pedigree is dated 16 Jan. 1999. So you
can see it in the archives. It is titled, "Raleigh, Verney, Pole, and St.
John." There is an earlier thread, "Too many Raplh [sic] Verneys" [later this
was corrected in the head] and another "Which Ralph Verney".
Personally, I think I am correct :-) Look at the chronology.
1. Mary Raleigh; b. c. 1500; child marriage, 1508; only child b. c. 1517/18; d.
1522.
2. Edward Raleigh; d. 1508; md. c. 1495/1505.
3. Anne Chamberlayne; b. after 1475; d. after 1530.
4. Edward Raleigh; b. before 1442; d. 1509/13; md. 1467.
5. Margaret Verney; b. later than husband, probably 1447-1455.
10. Sir Ralph Verney apprenticed in 1434 and was a member of the Mercer's co.
by 1457.
In 1447, he was an attorney, So he had to have been born before 1426, possibly
quite a bit before. He d. 1478.
11. Alianore Pole. To have been the mother of children b. in the 1450s, she
needed to be born c.1430-37.
22. Geoffey Pole/Poole, d. c. 1474/74.
23. Edith St. John, b. c. 1425/37. If these dates are anywhere near accurate.
Alianor couldn't have been born early enough to have been the Verney children's
mother.
46. Oliver St. John; b. before 1398; d. 1437.
47, Margaret Beauchamp; b. 1409/10; d. 1482/3.
Kay Allen AG
>
>
> We can start guessing now, who was the first wife, Emme or Eleanor Pole, or
> are you correct and are Paget and Richardson wrong? Just a thought.
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kay Allen AG" <all...@pacbell.net>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Descendants of Eleanor (Pole) Verney
>
> > If the marriage to Richard Verney d. 1478 were true, she would be the
> > ancestress of, among others, Grace Chetwode and the Marburys. However, I
> > believe that if you check the chronology, she married the elder Ralph's
> > son Ralph, thereby removing this ancestry. The archives may have more on
> > this.
> >
> > Kay Allen AG
> >
> > Douglas Richardson wrote:
> >
Douglas Richardson
You are entirely correct. Lipscomb clearly assigned Eleanor Pole as
wife to the wrong Ralph Verney. Thanks for taking the time to share
information from your files with the newsgroup. Much appreciated!
Douglas Richardson
The information below was sent to me by Thia Montgomery. She intended
to post it to the newsgroup but it was sent as a private e-mail to me
instead. She asked that I post it for her. DR
Dear Mr. Richardson ~
For what it's worth, there is a pedigree chart in the front of the
book The
Verney Papers 1853 Camden Society. I have a copy of this book in my
library.
It shows:
The 1st Sir Ralph Verney, Sheriff of London 1456, lord mayor 1465,
knighted
1471, M. P. for London 1472, Will dated 11th June and proved 25th June
1478 and
Emme d. of ..... widow of .... Pyking by whom she had a son John. She
was
living 1478.
This couple Sir Ralph & Emme had:
Sir John Verney of Penley d. 1505 m. Margaret Whittingham dau of
Robert &
Catherine Whittingham of Penley.
2nd Sr. Ralph Verney of Kings Langley d. 6 Jul 1528 buried Kings
Langley. m.
Eleanor dau. of Sir Geoffrey Pole K. G.
Margaret Verney m. 1467 Sir Edward Raleigh of Farnborough, Warwick.
She was
alive 1478.
Beatrice Verney m. Henry Danvers of London, mercer and of Cotherop,
Oxford.
Best regards,
Thia Montgomery
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.02040...@posting.google.com>...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Oh dear... He was not Sir, he certainly was not KG (though his son
Richard was) and he spelt his name Poole. (cf all the spellings of
Brewes.)
ADRIANC...@cs.com
> > This couple Sir Ralph & Emme had:
> > Sir John Verney of Penley d. 1505 m. Margaret Whittingham dau of
> > Robert &
> > Catherine Whittingham of Penley.
> > 2nd Sr. Ralph Verney of Kings Langley d. 6 Jul 1528 buried Kings
> > Langley. m.
> > Eleanor dau. of Sir Geoffrey Pole K. G.
>
> Oh dear... He was not Sir, he certainly was not KG (though his son
> Richard was) and he spelt his name Poole. (cf all the spellings of
> Brewes.)
>
There was a Geoffrey Poole who was knighted (Bachelor) soon after 3 Nov 1529
(Knights made by the King at York Place, now called Whitehall, in the
Parliament time), but I dont know if this is the same person. (The Knights of
England by W A Shaw.)
Adrian
Tim Powys-Lybbe
ADRIANC...@cs.com wrote:
Thanks. Almost certainly his grandson, the one who provided supposed
information on his brother under torture and which then led, in part at
least, to the execution first of his brother and later of his
68-year-old mother.
But I'm glad to see that the spelling was maintained for a couple more
generations. The same spelling of Poole was also used in the 1612 Essex
visitation under Barrington, though with a minor detail of genealogy
completely wrong.
Arthur Plaisted thoguht that the first Geoffrey Poole came from the
Welshpool area of Wales in the company of with Owen Tudor and hence the
adoption of that surname.