Welsh GAM / GAMES / GAINES nobles/royals
Mike Potaski
noble/royal Welsh line. Would appreciate comments & citations of
legitimate sources to which I might refer.
I. Einion Sais of Betton Chapel, Brocknockshire, Wales
II. Hywel (Hoell ab Gwillm / Howel the Good)
III. Gwillm (Llewelyn ab Hywel)
IV. Davydd ab Llewelyn / David ab Llewelyn / Sir David Gam / Gaines
died at Battle of Agincourt, France, 25 Oct 1415. Married Gwenllian
daughter of Gwilyn son of Hywel Grach
V. Morgan
VI. Llen ab Morgan
VII. John
VIII. John Games / Gaines (Sir John Gaines 1559-1606) of Newton County,
Brecon, Wales
IX. Thomas Gaines arrived Virginia in 1640s
X. James Gaines
XI. Richard Gaines (1686-1755/56) of Culpepper County, VA
XII. Hierum Gaines
XIII. Richard Gaines
Thanks for comments/suggestions,
Mike
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Nathaniel Taylor
mikep...@hotmail.com (Mike Potaski) wrote:
>I have come across the following, unattributed/undocumented, supposed
>noble/royal Welsh line. Would appreciate comments & citations of
>legitimate sources to which I might refer.
>
>I. Einion Sais of Betton Chapel, Brocknockshire, Wales
>II. Hywel (Hoell ab Gwillm / Howel the Good)
>III. Gwillm (Llewelyn ab Hywel)
>IV. Davydd ab Llewelyn / David ab Llewelyn / Sir David Gam / Gaines
>died at Battle of Agincourt, France, 25 Oct 1415. Married Gwenllian
>daughter of Gwilyn son of Hywel Grach
>V. Morgan
>VI. Llen ab Morgan
>VII. John
>VIII. John Games / Gaines (Sir John Gaines 1559-1606) of Newton County,
>Brecon, Wales
>IX. Thomas Gaines arrived Virginia in 1640s
>X. James Gaines
>XI. Richard Gaines (1686-1755/56) of Culpepper County, VA
>XII. Hierum Gaines
>XIII. Richard Gaines
I suspect that this is a (bogus) attempt to derive an immigrant by the
name of Gaines from David Gam, Esquire, one of the few English dead at
Agincourt (see Shakespeare's _Henry V_, 4.8.103). The _Dictionary of
English Surnames_, 3d ed., claims that 'Gaines' is one of the various
names derived from the AN epithet 'd'engaigne' (Lat. 'de ingania'). 'Gam'
is not glossed, but it may be one of the family of surnames derived from
the OE word 'gamen' (to game). Was the Agincourt casualty truly ever
known as 'Gaines'? As for the gentleman in gen. 8: if he is actually
called both 'Games' and 'Gaines' in authoritative printed sources I expect
that one or the other is simply a transcription error, not an actual
(written or aural) alternate name.
As for the genealogy from Einion Sais to David Gam, I have no knowledge of
its authenticity or falsewhood, though if no. 2 is known as 'Hoell ab
Gwillm' (Hywel son of Gwillm, which I assume is a masculine name, though I
don't think that it is equivalent of Llewelyn, as shown in gen. 3), then
how could he be the son of Einion?
Nat Taylor
G . EDWARD ALLEN
>
> I have come across the following, unattributed/undocumented, supposed
> noble/royal Welsh line. Would appreciate comments & citations of
> legitimate sources to which I might refer.
>
> I. Einion Sais of Betton Chapel, Brocknockshire, Wales
> II. Hywel (Hoell ab Gwillm / Howel the Good)
> III. Gwillm (Llewelyn ab Hywel)
> IV. Davydd ab Llewelyn / David ab Llewelyn / Sir David Gam / Gaines
> died at Battle of Agincourt, France, 25 Oct 1415. Married Gwenllian
> daughter of Gwilyn son of Hywel Grach
> V. Morgan
> VI. Llen ab Morgan
> VII. John
> VIII. John Games / Gaines (Sir John Gaines 1559-1606) of Newton County,
> Brecon, Wales
> IX. Thomas Gaines arrived Virginia in 1640s
> X. James Gaines
> XI. Richard Gaines (1686-1755/56) of Culpepper County, VA
> XII. Hierum Gaines
> XIII. Richard Gaines
>
>
> Mike
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
1. Morgan ap Dafydd Gam
2. Dafydd Gam d. 1415.
4. Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan
8. Hywel Fychan ap Hywel
16. Hywel ab Einion Sais
32. Einion Sais
This is from Peter Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400, which is
available on microfiche through the LDS Family History Centers.
Morgan's offspring can be found in Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies AD
1400-1500, page Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 20C. Unfortunately, I have only been
able to find this at Salt Lake City.
Perhaps someone might post these offspring.
Nathaniel Taylor
nta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
>In article <1998083021253...@hotmail.com>,
>mikep...@hotmail.com (Mike Potaski) wrote:
>
>>I have come across the following, unattributed/undocumented, supposed
>>noble/royal Welsh line. Would appreciate comments & citations of
>>legitimate sources to which I might refer.
>>
>>I. Einion Sais of Betton Chapel, Brocknockshire, Wales
>>II. Hywel (Hoell ab Gwillm / Howel the Good)
>>III. Gwillm (Llewelyn ab Hywel)
>>IV. Davydd ab Llewelyn / David ab Llewelyn / Sir David Gam / Gaines
>>died at Battle of Agincourt, France, 25 Oct 1415. Married Gwenllian
>>daughter of Gwilyn son of Hywel Grach
>>V. Morgan
>>VI. Llen ab Morgan
>>VII. John
>>VIII. John Games / Gaines (Sir John Gaines 1559-1606) of Newton County,
>>Brecon, Wales
>>IX. Thomas Gaines arrived Virginia in 1640s
>
>As for the genealogy from Einion Sais to David Gam, I have no knowledge of
>its authenticity or falsewhood, though if no. 2 is known as 'Hoell ab
>Gwillm' (Hywel son of Gwillm, which I assume is a masculine name, though I
>don't think that it is equivalent of Llewelyn, as shown in gen. 3), then
>how could he be the son of Einion?
Well, David (or Dafydd) Gam actually appears in Robert's _Royal Descents
of 500 Immigrants_, p. 391, which makes gives one line of Gam's ancestry,
and a descent to two immigrants to Pennsylvania. Looking at that, it
appears that the above is a garbling of the ancestry of David with that of
Gwenllian, his wife (both had grandfathers named Hywel).
N.B. Roberts notes that Bartrum gives Dafydd Gam only one son, also
Daffyd, who d.s.p., and no daughters, though Roberts goes on to trace a
line from another son Thomas ap Dafyd, noting that "further research
should be undertaken to confirm..."
An AT for Dafydd, son of Sir Dafydd Gam, using only what appears in
Roberts, would look like this:
1. Dafydd ap Dafydd Gam
2. Sir Dafydd Gam (+ at Agincourt)
3. Gwenllian ferch Gwilym ap Hywel Grach
4. Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan
5. Mawd ferch Ieuan
6. Gwilym ap Hywel Grach
8. Hywel Fychan
10. Ieuan ap Rhys
11. Gwladys ferch Dafydd
12. Hywel Grach
(etc.)
Nat Taylor
D. Spencer Hines
Interesting and a silken thread to other possibilities.
Yes, Henry V, Act IV, Scene viii, Line 102
[After the Battle of Agincourt, 25 October 1415]
King Henry V:
"Where is the number of our English dead?"
[Herald gives another paper]
Edward the Duke of York, the Earl of Suffolk,
Sir Richard Ketley, Davy Gam, esquire;
None else of name; and of all other men
But five-and-twenty. Oh God! Thy arm was here!
And not to us, but to thy arm alone,
Ascribe we all! When, without stratagem,
But in plain shock and even play of battle,
Was ever known so great and little loss
On one part and on th' other? Take it God,
For it is none but thine!
[Duke of] Exeter:
'Tis wonderful!
Now, is it possible that one, or several, of that consummate class of
vultures, whom I have frequently described as the "Charlatan Genealogists"
simply decided that making a marriage between the names Gam, Games and
Gaines was just too good to miss?
Why are people here so loath to discuss these possible cases of fraud by
Genealogists and Historians? Are folks afraid that if they lift the rock
and turn it over, they will find all sort of things squirming in the muck?
Is there some misplaced sense of "professional courtesy" involved --- in
that these fraudulent practices may still be foisted on some naive and
unsuspecting clients --- and "it's better not to make a fuss or stir the
pot." [Or lift the stone at all.]
Is it possible that said possible unknown, to me, fraudulent blackguard ---
sold the Gaines Family of Virginia or other parts of the United States ---
North, West and South, descendants of Thomas Gaines, "who reportedly arrived
in Virginia in the 1640's" --- on the proposition that their Noble Ancestor,
Sir Davy Gam was slain fighting on the Field of Agincourt with Good King
Harry [the one they read about in school] and all they had to do was "turn
to this scene in William Shakespeare's Great History of that Battle on the
Field of Honor" to read about it?
Instant linkage to the stalwart "band of brothers" of Henry V --- Admiral
Nelson speaking to his officers before the Battle of Trafalgar --- Alfred
Thayer Mahan and the Rise of the American Navy in the 1890's --- the
satisfied customer gets instant entree to it all. Some accounts even have
Theodore Roosevelt's Rough Riders reciting the "band of brothers speech" in
unison at the Battles of Kettle Hill/San Juan Hill in Cuba during the
Spanish-American War. This is very heady stuff in 19th Century America ---
pre World War I.
It really is a delightful "commission enhancer" for the potential charlatan
genealogist/historian --- don't you think?
Now who could that possible Charlatan Genealogist/Historian possibly have
been? We should be able to identify the fraud and the perpetrator, if fraud
was in fact committed.
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da
gloriam, propter misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V,
[1387-1422] King of England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and
chaplains --- after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every
able-bodied man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV,
Verse I]
Nathaniel Taylor wrote in message ...
>In article <1998083021253...@hotmail.com>,
>mikep...@hotmail.com (Mike Potaski) wrote:
>
>>I have come across the following, unattributed/undocumented, supposed
>>noble/royal Welsh line. Would appreciate comments & citations of
>>legitimate sources to which I might refer.
>>
>>I. Einion Sais of Betton Chapel, Brocknockshire, Wales
>>II. Hywel (Hoell ab Gwillm / Howel the Good)
>>III. Gwillm (Llewelyn ab Hywel)
>>IV. Davydd ab Llewelyn / David ab Llewelyn / Sir David Gam / Gaines
>>died at Battle of Agincourt, France, 25 Oct 1415. Married Gwenllian
>>daughter of Gwilyn son of Hywel Grach
>>V. Morgan
>>VI. Llen ab Morgan
>>VII. John
>>VIII. John Games / Gaines (Sir John Gaines 1559-1606) of Newton County,
>>Brecon, Wales
>>IX. Thomas Gaines arrived Virginia in 1640s
>>X. James Gaines
>>XI. Richard Gaines (1686-1755/56) of Culpepper County, VA
>>XII. Hierum Gaines
>>XIII. Richard Gaines
>
>I suspect that this is a (bogus) attempt to derive an immigrant by the
>name of Gaines from David Gam, Esquire, one of the few English dead at
>Agincourt (see Shakespeare's _Henry V_, 4.8.103). The _Dictionary of
>English Surnames_, 3d ed., claims that 'Gaines' is one of the various
>names derived from the AN epithet 'd'engaigne' (Lat. 'de ingania'). 'Gam'
>is not glossed, but it may be one of the family of surnames derived from
>the OE word 'gamen' (to game). Was the Agincourt casualty truly ever
>known as 'Gaines'? As for the gentleman in gen. 8: if he is actually
>called both 'Games' and 'Gaines' in authoritative printed sources I expect
>that one or the other is simply a transcription error, not an actual
>(written or aural) alternate name.
>
>As for the genealogy from Einion Sais to David Gam, I have no knowledge of
>its authenticity or falsewhood, though if no. 2 is known as 'Hoell ab
>Gwillm' (Hywel son of Gwillm, which I assume is a masculine name, though I
>don't think that it is equivalent of Llewelyn, as shown in gen. 3), then
>how could he be the son of Einion?
>
>Nat Taylor
David Nash Ford
"'Gam' is not glossed, but it may be one of the family of surnames derived
from the OE word 'gamen' (to game). "
The name "Gam" is an epithet rather than a surname and is pure Welsh meaning,
literally, "the Injured" or "the Crooked" usually referring to a leg injury,
though not always. Morgan Gam, Lord of Baglan, had apparently been shot in the
eye with an arrow!
David Ford
Binfield
Berkshire
UK
"Early British Kingdoms Web Site"
http://freespace.virgin.net/david.ford2/Early%20British%20Kingdoms.html
Nathaniel Taylor
ALLEN) wrote:
>Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
>>
>> N.B. Roberts notes that Bartrum gives Dafydd Gam only one son, also
>> Daffyd, who d.s.p., and no daughters, though Roberts goes on to trace a
>> line from another son Thomas ap Dafyd, noting that "further research
>> should be undertaken to confirm..."
>>
>Nat,
>
>I believe that you misread Roberts. It is Thomas ap Dafydd Gam that
>Bartrum gives only one son who dsp.
>
>Sir Dafydd Gam d.1415, Agincourt, according to Bartrum, had two sons,
>Morgan and Thomas. Morgan's progeny is continued in Bartrum 2, Bleddyn
>ap Maenyrch 20C, which would probably cite a source for continuing that
>branch after Bartrum ended it.
>
>Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Kay, you're right: I did misconstrue the note at Thomas ap Dafydd Gam in
Roberts, 391 (I'm not saying what weekend activity left me so tired and
dull-brained); nor did I consult Bartrum myself. If Bartrum does give a
line of descent from Morgan ap Dafydd Gam, then the original posted
descent may indeed be true for a couple of generations after the Agincourt
casualty. Even so, I am no more likely to believe the Gam / Gaines
connection.
Nat Taylor
G . EDWARD ALLEN
I agree that the Gaines descent is unlikely, but until the Morgan
offspring can be checked, it is still an open issue.
Perhaps Paul Reed, should he have a spare moment, might check Bartrum
1400-1500 for Bleddyn ap Maenerch 20C for descents from Morgan.
Dwnn might also shed some light on this problem. See author/title in
the FHC catalog.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/31/98 12:28:37 AM, Hines wrote:
<<Is it possible that said possible unknown, to me, fraudulent blackguard ---
sold the Gaines Family of Virginia or other parts of the United States ---
North, West and South, descendants of Thomas Gaines, "who reportedly arrived
in Virginia in the 1640's" --- on the proposition that their Noble Ancestor,
Sir Davy Gam was slain fighting on the Field of Agincourt with Good King
Harry >>
It may be possible. In the battle roll that I posted a few months ago there is
no Davy Gam or any name remoteky like Gaines.
Several people asked that I place that roll on the web page. I will try to
get it up this week under extras in the URL below.
- Ken
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
_____________________HT COMMUNICATIONS____________________
PO Box 1401 Arvada, CO 80001 USA
Voice: 303-420-4888 Fax: 303-420-4845 e-mail: K...@AOL.com
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Associated with: Thompson Starr International
[Films ... Representation ... Publishing ... Marketing]
G . EDWARD ALLEN
of that Gaines family is totally another question.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Reedpcgen
and it was without foundation. Also, this connection is not included in the
earlier years of the Virginia Magazine, William and Mary Quarterly, or
Stanard's list, which would also seem very odd if there were such a close
connection to a knight.
The Gaines were prominent in Virginia, and closely allied to families such as
the Booth-Cooke alliance of the Northern Neck, the Goode family, etc. (but the
claimed royal origin of this Goode family is also false, and Mordecai Cooke was
from a regular gentry/yeoman family, with no known royal descent).
There were things on the Gaines family in the Times-Dispatch (Richmond) and in
George Mackenzie's Colonial Families (6:245), but I don't remember what they
say. We'll have to chop it off definitively at a later date.
Sorry I could not do it now.
pcr
D. Spencer Hines
>Also, this connection is not included in the
>earlier years of the Virginia Magazine, William and Mary Quarterly, or
>Stanard's list, which would also seem very odd if there were such a close
>connection to a knight.
pcr
Concur.
This is interesting. Now who could the charlatan have been who may well
have attached Sir Davy Gam to the Gaines Family? Someone in Virginia?
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- William Jefferson Blythe III [Bill Clinton] President
of the United States --- Peccatoris Justificatio Absque Paenitentia, Legem
Destruit Moralem. "Clinton's an unusually good liar. Unusually good."
Senator Bob Kerrey [Democrat, Nebraska]
Reedpcgen wrote in message
<199808311802...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
DavidBotts
Said Thomas Gaines is an ancestor of mine and appears in the Database of One
Million Claimed Relations. I am most interested in anything you all find about
any ancestral line attributed to him. I carry him only to John b. 1559 Newton,
County Brecon, Wales. I have heard rumors of a Gaines royal link, but have
seen nothing of substance.
TIA,
Dave Botts
San Antonio, Texas
Brian M. Scott
> mikep...@hotmail.com (Mike Potaski) wrote:
> >I have come across the following, unattributed/undocumented, supposed
> >noble/royal Welsh line. Would appreciate comments & citations of
> >legitimate sources to which I might refer.
> >I. Einion Sais of Betton Chapel, Brocknockshire, Wales
> >II. Hywel (Hoell ab Gwillm / Howel the Good)
> >III. Gwillm (Llewelyn ab Hywel)
> >IV. Davydd ab Llewelyn / David ab Llewelyn / Sir David Gam / Gaines
> >died at Battle of Agincourt, France, 25 Oct 1415. Married Gwenllian
> >daughter of Gwilyn son of Hywel Grach
> >V. Morgan
> >VI. Llen ab Morgan
> >VII. John
> >VIII. John Games / Gaines (Sir John Gaines 1559-1606) of Newton County,
> >Brecon, Wales
> >IX. Thomas Gaines arrived Virginia in 1640s
[snip more Gaines]
> I suspect that this is a (bogus) attempt to derive an immigrant by the
> name of Gaines from David Gam, Esquire, one of the few English dead at
> Agincourt (see Shakespeare's _Henry V_, 4.8.103). The _Dictionary of
> English Surnames_, 3d ed., claims that 'Gaines' is one of the various
> names derived from the AN epithet 'd'engaigne' (Lat. 'de ingania'). 'Gam'
> is not glossed, but it may be one of the family of surnames derived from
> the OE word 'gamen' (to game).
No, it's the lenited form of Welsh <cam> 'bent, not straight', the usual
form of the word in bynames. T.J. Morgan & Prys Morgan, _Welsh
Surnames_, s.n. Gam show that in some cases it later became <Games> (by
way of an intermediate <Game>). They also say that although the epithet
was common, 'the family of the famous Dafydd Gam of Breconshire seems to
be the only one that has a surname derived from <Gam>', further noting
that in this case it is supposed to have meant 'squinting'. They appear
to be referring to IV.
[snip]
> As for the genealogy from Einion Sais to David Gam, I have no knowledge of
> its authenticity or falsewhood, though if no. 2 is known as 'Hoell ab
> Gwillm' (Hywel son of Gwillm, which I assume is a masculine name,
Presumably a variant of <Gwilym>, from <William>.
> though I
> don't think that it is equivalent of Llewelyn, as shown in gen. 3), then
> how could he be the son of Einion?
The whole top end seems a bit odd, or at least incomplete. Hywel Dda
(Howel the Good) fl. c.950 was the son of Cadell [P.C. Bartrum, _Early
Welsh Genealogical Tracts_].
Brian M. Scott
Team Scudamore
D. Spencer Hines wrote in message <6sesje$i...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...