Champernowne still!
Mardi Carter
confused about the very early line. The first I find mentioned is
Jordan Champernon who m. Mabel? or Emme? de Soligny (Vivian, Bodine),
dau. of Philip de Soligny.
In Todd Farmerie's posting of 22 Jul 98 he gives an abbreviated descent
from Charlemagne to Alexander Champernowne. In it I find:
etc.
Henry I
Robert of Gloucester
Robert (II)
*Mabira m. Jordan de Champernoun
*Henry
Henry
Oliver
Henry
Richard
Richard
Thomas
Richard
Alexander
Would someone please clear up the early descent and marriages from
Jordan to Oliver (living 1201-43)? The '*' indicate the areas of my
confusion. The rest is excellent and I appreciate the hard work that
went into the research.
Thanks.
mbc
Todd A. Farmerie
> I have been combing all the Champernowne postings I could pull up and am
> confused about the very early line. The first I find mentioned is
> Jordan Champernon who m. Mabel? or Emme? de Soligny (Vivian, Bodine),
> dau. of Philip de Soligny.
Both. One Jordan marred Mabel/Mabira of Gloucester, daughter of Robert
Fitz Robert by Hawise de Redvers. She subsequently married a Solariis,
and Pole confused Mabel "de Solariis" with Emma de Soligny, in the next
generation. Benson, correcting Pole, recognized Solariis was different
than Soligny but not that Mabira of Gloucester and Mabel 'de Solariis'
were the same, and also seeing rather long chronology, added an extra
Jordan and wife Mabel de Solariis in the Umberleigh branch. It was the
appropriate identification of Mabel that clarified the Solariis
connection, as well as helping to resolve some of the chronlogical
problems.
Jordan m. Mabel/Mabira of Gloucester. They had:
Jordan, received Umberlegh, m. Emma de Soligny
William/Oliver m. Eva, heiress of Cardinham
Joan m. Ralph de Wilington
Henry
Oliver m. Wymarca
Henry m. Dionysia English
William m. Joan
Henry m. Joan Bodrigan
William m. Elizabeth Cornwall
Richard m. Joan (of Cornwall?)
Richard m. Elizabeth de Valletort
Thomas m. Eleanor Rohaut
Richard m. Alice de Astley, Katherine
d'Aubigny
I don't have a handy source which mentions the wife of Henry. I know
that Benson split Henry into two people (to account for an otherwise
inidentified Isabella de Champernoun, and to compensate for the extra
generation in the Umberleigh line, which he also had accidentally
created by splitting one person into two). I appear to have mistakenly
followed Benson in naming two consecutive Henrys, but the correct
identification of Mabira precludes there being an extra generation here.
taf
ED MANN
>
> I have been combing all the Champernowne postings I could pull up and am
> confused about the very early line. The first I find mentioned is
> Jordan Champernon who m. Mabel? or Emme? de Soligny (Vivian, Bodine),
> dau. of Philip de Soligny.
>
> from Charlemagne to Alexander Champernowne. In it I find:
> etc.
> Henry I
> Robert of Gloucester
> Robert (II)
> *Mabira m. Jordan de Champernoun
> *Henry
> Henry
> Oliver
> Henry
> Richard
> Richard
> Thomas
> Richard
> Alexander
>
> Would someone please clear up the early descent and marriages from
> Jordan to Oliver (living 1201-43)? The '*' indicate the areas of my
> confusion. The rest is excellent and I appreciate the hard work that
> went into the research.
Working on automatic, I get this link from Henry I to Alexander
Champernoun:
Direct Descendants of Henry I of England
1 [3] King Henry I of England aka: "Beauclerc" b: 1068 d: 1 Dec 1135
ref #: Ä121-25
2 Constance ref #: Ä98-25
+Vicomte Roscelin de Maine aka: Raoul V de Beaumont d: Aft. 1145
3 Sir Richard I de Beaumont aka: Vicomte de Maine d: Aft. 1194 ref
#: Ä98-26
+N de L'Aigle ref #: (Ä98-26)
4 Constance de Beaumont d: Aft. 1226 ref #: Ä98-27
+Roger IV de Toeni b: Abt. 1160 d: Jan 1208/09 ref #: Ä98A-27
5 Sir Ralph VI de Toeni b: 1190 d: 1239 ref #: Ä98-28
+Petronel de Lacy d: Aft. 1287 ref #: (Ä98-28)
6 [2] Sir Roger V de Toeni b: 1235 d: Bef. 12 May 1264 ref #: Ä98-29
+Alice de Bohun ref #: W101A-3
7 Sir Ralph VII de Toeni b: 1255 d: Bef. 29 Jul 1295 ref #: W101A-4
+Mary d: Aft. 1282 ref #: (Ä98-30)
8 [1] Alice de Toeni b: Abt. 1283 d: 8 Jan 1324/25 ref #: W101A-5
*2nd Husband of [1] Alice de Toeni:
+Sir Guy de Beauchamp aka: 2d Earl of Warwick b: 1278 d: 12 Aug
1315 ref #: W5-5
9 Elizabeth de Beauchamp ref #: BxP:13
+Sir Thomas de Astley aka: 3d Baron Astley ref #: BxP:13
10 Alice de Astley ref #: BxP:13
+Sir Richard Champernoun ref #: (Ä51-34)
11 Alexander Champernoun b: 1382 d: 1441 ref #: (Ä51-34)
My break in the Champernoun line comes before RIchard, Alexander's
father.
I do have these Champernouns, which seem to partially match:
Direct Descendants of Jordan de Cambernon
1 Jordan de Cambernon d: Aft. 1171 ref #: (Ä124A-27)
+Mabira de Caen d: Aft. 1189 ref #: Ä124A-27
2 Henry de Chambernon d: Abt. 1203 ref #: Ä124A-28
+Isabel d: Aft. 1217 ref #: (Ä124A-28)
3 Henry de Chambernon d: Abt. 1210 ref #: Ä124A-29
+Rohese de Tracy d: Aft. 1236 ref #: (Ä124A-29)
4 Oliver de Chambernon d: Bef. 1232 ref #: Ä124A-30
+Wymarca d: Aft. 1237 ref #: (Ä124A-30)
5 Sir Henry de Chambernon b: Abt. 1225 d: Aft. 1280 ref #: Ä124A-31
+Dionisia English ref #: (Ä124A-31)
6 Richard de Chambernon ref #: AAP:226
+Joan Okeston ref #: AAP:226
7 Sir Richard Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
8 Sir Richard Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
+Joan de Valletort ref #: AAP:226
9 Sir Thomas Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
+Eleanor de Rohart ref #: AAP:226
10 Sir Richard Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
+Katherine Daubeny ref #: AAP:226
11 John Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
+Margaret Spriggy ref #: AAP:226
12 Richard Champernowne ref #: (Ä246F-36)
+Mary Hamley ref #: (Ä246F-36)
13 Elizabeth Champernowne b: Abt. 1465 d: Bef. 1518 ref #:
(Ä246F-36)
Maybe someone can patch these two lines together.
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
RBodine996
Modbury and North Tawton, I will be posting the Early Champernouns later this
week.
Ronny
John Lerwill
and my ancestry.
Many thanks,
John Lerwill, London, England
***************************************************************************
For Devon History and also Research help, please see my webpage
at: http://members.tripod.com/~lerhistory/devtales.html
ED MANN
>
> Dear Ed,
> > 9 Elizabeth de Beauchamp ref #: BxP:13
> > +Sir Thomas de Astley aka: 3d Baron Astley ref #: BxP:13
> > 10 Alice de Astley ref #: BxP:13
> > +Sir Richard Champernoun ref #: (Ä51-34)
>
> 1st or 2nd Barons de Astley, in other words, any forebears for Thomas De
> Astley?
Direct Descendants of Philip de Estley
1 Philip de Estley ref #: BxP:12
2 Thomas de Astley ref #: BxP:100
+Maud de Camville aka: Matilda de Camville ref #: BxP:100
3 Walter de Astley d: Abt. 1238 ref #: BxP:12
4 [1] Sir Thomas de Astley aka: Knt. d: 1264 ref #: BxP:12
+Joane de Bois ref #: BxP:12
5 Sir Andrew de Astley aka: 1st Baron Astley ref #: BxP:12
6 Sir Giles de Astley ref #: BxP:13
+Alice Wolvey ref #: BxP:13
7 Sir Thomas de Astley aka: 3d Baron Astley ref #: BxP:13
+Elizabeth de Beauchamp ref #: BxP:13
8 Sir William de Astley aka: 4th Baron Astley ref #: BxP:13
*2nd Wife of [1] Thomas de Astley:
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> My break in the Champernoun line comes before RIchard, Alexander's
> father.
He is Richard #10, below.
> I do have these Champernouns, which seem to partially match:
>
> Direct Descendants of Jordan de Cambernon
>
> 1 Jordan de Cambernon d: Aft. 1171 ref #: (Ä124A-27)
> +Mabira de Caen d: Aft. 1189 ref #: Ä124A-27
> 2 Henry de Chambernon d: Abt. 1203 ref #: Ä124A-28
> +Isabel d: Aft. 1217 ref #: (Ä124A-28)
> 3 Henry de Chambernon d: Abt. 1210 ref #: Ä124A-29
> +Rohese de Tracy d: Aft. 1236 ref #: (Ä124A-29)
This #2 Henry is thanks to Benson. He had an Isabel de Chambernon that
he could not place, and had what he considered to be a long lived Henry
(m. Rohese) where there were two Jordans in the collateral line, so he
decided that there were two Henrys, the older married to Isabel. In
fact, there is no evidence that there were two Henrys, that Isabel was
married to Henry (or any Champ. - she could have been a sister) and the
two Jordans in the other line were likewise erroneously split. On top
of this, Mabira is a generation further removed from Henry I, disturbing
Benson's chronology, and shortenning the span between Jordan and Oliver,
son of Henry and Rohese. I think we must reject Benson's additional
Henry, and return to the one of Vivian and earlier authors.
> 4 Oliver de Chambernon d: Bef. 1232 ref #: Ä124A-30
> +Wymarca d: Aft. 1237 ref #: (Ä124A-30)
> 5 Sir Henry de Chambernon b: Abt. 1225 d: Aft. 1280 ref #: Ä124A-31
> +Dionisia English ref #: (Ä124A-31)
> 6 Richard de Chambernon ref #: AAP:226
> +Joan Okeston ref #: AAP:226
> 7 Sir Richard Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
> 8 Sir Richard Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
> +Joan de Valletort ref #: AAP:226
There is no room in the chronology for #7 Richard. #8 Richard m.
Valletort was son of #6 Richard m. (Okeston/Cornwall).
> 9 Sir Thomas Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
> +Eleanor de Rohart ref #: AAP:226
> 10 Sir Richard Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
> +Katherine Daubeny ref #: AAP:226
> 11 John Champernowne ref #: AAP:226
> +Margaret Spriggy ref #: AAP:226
> 12 Richard Champernowne ref #: (Ä246F-36)
> +Mary Hamley ref #: (Ä246F-36)
The wife of #11 John Champernowne was Margaret Hamley, whose mother m.2
Spriggy. The wife of #12 was not a Hamley. Look at the recent Bodine
postings (or for that matter the material I have posted on the family
since 1995).
taf
ED MANN
>
> Thanks Ed,
> Now I've got some more women to check out! Can we connect Maud De CAMVILLE
> with Richard or Amicia De CAMVILLE?
Yes and no.
Descendants of Gerard de Camville
1 Gerard de Camville ref #: BxP:100
2 Richard de Camville ref #: BxP:100
3 Gerald de Camville ref #: BxP:100
+Nichola de la Haye b: Abt. 1150 d: 1230 ref #: (BxP:100)
4 Richard de Camville d: 1226 ref #: BxP:100
+Eustacia Bassett ref #: (BxP:100)
3 Walter de Camville ref #: BxP:100
4 Maud de Camville aka: Matilda de Camville ref #: BxP:100
+Thomas de Astley ref #: BxP:100
3 Richard de Camville ref #: BxP:100
+Milicent de Rethel b: Abt. 1118 ref #: Ä246A-25
4 Isabel de Camville ref #: BxP:100
+Robert de Harcourt b: Abt. 1152 d: 1202 ref #: BxP:261
3 William de Camville d: 1260 ref #: BxP:100
+Albreda de Marmion ref #: BxP:100
4 Sir Geoffrey de Camville aka: 1st Baron Canville d: 1308 ref #:
BxP:100
+Maud de Brian b: Abt. 1242 d: Aft. 1274 ref #: Ä63A-31
3 Matilda de Camville ref #: BxP:100
+William de Ros ref #: BxP:100
bpcpas...@gmail.com
>
> I am looking for information to say who Jordan de Champernon
my 30th great grandfather
Birth 1055 in Cambernon, Mache, Basse-Normandie, France
Death 1100 in Devonshire, England
who is his parents
taf
> I am looking for information to say who Jordan de Champernon
> my 30th great grandfather
> Birth 1055 in Cambernon, Mache, Basse-Normandie, France
> Death 1100 in Devonshire, England
>
> who is his parents
taf