De La Warr - another CP Error?
Chris Phillips
Richardson referred to in relation to the parentage of Anne Percy, the wife
of Sir Thomas Hungerford, I was puzzled by a daughter of Thomas Percy
[d.1461] and [Eleanor] Poynings, who is shown as "Aleonora nupta domino de
la Ware".
An Eleanor is listed in a footnote in the Northumberland article, but
without a husband being named.
Turning to the De La Warr article, chronology suggests that Eleanor's
husband would be born in or around the 1450s, and married perhaps in the
1470s or 1480s. The only candidate seems to be Thomas (West), Lord La Warre
(b.c. 1457, d. 1525). The Complete Peerage says [vol.4, p.156] he married
2ndly an Eleanor, who survived him, dying in 1536. The chronology looks
reasonable enough for her to be the Eleanor Percy in the Northumberland
pedigree, but she is identified as "Eleanor, da. of Sir Roger Copley, of
Roughway, Sussex, by Anne, 2nd da. and coh. of Thomas (Hoo), Baron Hoo and
Hastings" (no source cited).
Can anyone shed any light on the mystery? On the face of it the Percy
pedigree looks to be quite strong evidence to identify Thomas's wife as
Eleanor Percy, as on internal evidence it appears to have been compiled in
the 1480s. But is there good (or any) counter-evidence to identify her as
Eleanor Copley? Or was there someone else at the time who could have been
called "dominus de la Ware"? Or could Thomas have married both Eleanor Percy
and Eleanor Copley in succession?
It may be quite an important point for ancestor-collectors, as it was
Eleanor that the later lords De La Warr descended from. In an earlier
discussion, it's been mentioned that there were early emigrants* to America
among Eleanor's descendants (*or immigrants, depending which way you look at
it).
I should say I haven't had a chance to check CP vol.14 yet, so more may be
said there.
Chris Phillips
David Paul Meyer
William Flower's "Visitation of Yorkshire", page 243 has an Elenor, Lady La Ware, as the daughter of Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland, slain at Tolton 29 March 1461, by Elenor, daughter and heir of Sir Rychard Ponings.
Further, in the Addenda Et Corrigenda, page 376; "243. Eleanor Percy married Reginald West, Lord de la Warr."
Flower's, also on page 243 shows the above Henry Percy had a brother, Thomas Percy, Lord Egremont, slain at Northampton 19 Jul 1460.
Yours truly,
David
Chris Phillips
> William Flower's "Visitation of Yorkshire", page 243 has an Elenor, Lady
La Ware, as the daughter of Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland, slain
at Tolton 29 March 1461, by Elenor, daughter and heir of Sir Rychard
Ponings.
> Further, in the Addenda Et Corrigenda, page 376; "243. Eleanor Percy
married Reginald West, Lord de la Warr."
Thanks for that information, and also to Leo van de Pas, for the additional
information that Complete Peerage vol.14 identifies Eleanor, the wife of
Thomas West, Lord La Warre, as the _3rd_ daughter of Sir Roger Copley, and
adds that she was born circa 1476 (which would make her nearly 20 years
younger than her husband).
On the identification by the editor of Flower's Visitation of Eleanor
Percy's husband as Reginald (Thomas's grandfather), there is a note in the
Complete Peerage (vol.4, p.155, note c):
"In the pedigree of Percy, by Bishop Percy (Collins, edit. 1779, vol.ii,
p.373), it is stated that Eleanor, 1st da. of Henry, Earl of Northumberland,
is mentioned in her father's will, dated 1 Nov. 36 Hen. VI, as unmarried,
and that she afterwards m. Reynold West, Lord la Warre. This, and Blore's
statement (Rutland, p.100) that the same Eleanor was wife of Richard, Lord
La Warre, are both obviously erroneous." [Richard was Thomas's father]
It looks as though these statements were different attempts to identify the
"Lord la Warre" mentioned in the visitation pedigrees. If the part about
Eleanor being unmarried when her father's will was made (1 November 1457),
Reginald and Richard would certainly be ruled out, on the information in
Complete Peerage.
I had a brief look at a couple more books. The c.1505 pedigree of the Percys
printed in Coll. Top. Gen. vol.1
doesn't show Eleanor at all. On a quick scan of the will of Henry Percy
(d.1489), printed by the Surtees Society, there didn't seem to be any
mention of De La Warrs. And there are abstracts of the wills of both Thomas
West, Lord La Warre, and Eleanor his wife in Testamenta Vetusta (whose
editor follows the identification of her as a Copley). The abstract of
Eleanor's will doesn't seem to contain any useful information, but Thomas's
does name Sir Roger Copley, knight, as an overseer, and I think makes it
clear that Thomas had only two wives, as he makes provision for prayers for
the souls of Elizabeth, late his wife, and Eleanor, his present wife.
That leaves the conflict unresolved. On the one hand we have the Percy
pedigree, apparently compiled in the 1480s, which does seem to imply that
Thomas's wife Eleanor was a Percy. On the other, the Complete Peerage, which
states that she was the daughter of Sir Roger Copley, but without presenting
the evidence...
Chris Phillips
Tim Powys-Lybbe
cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk (Chris Phillips) wrote:
> Trying to work out the likely date of the Percy pedigree that Douglas
> Richardson referred to in relation to the parentage of Anne Percy, the wife
> of Sir Thomas Hungerford, I was puzzled by a daughter of Thomas Percy
> [d.1461] and [Eleanor] Poynings, who is shown as "Aleonora nupta domino de
> la Ware".
>
<snip>
>
> I should say I haven't had a chance to check CP vol.14 yet, so more may be
> said there.
Vol XIV adds that Eleanor "Copley" was b. circa 1476 - but with not
source.
The note (b) on Vol IV, page 158 might be of interest with references to
Round's "Peerage and Pedigree".
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org