William de Grandison husband of Sybil de Tregoz (who are his parents?)

[xager8on]

While trying to verify who William de Grandison parents were, I keep
coming across that they were Pierre I de Grandson and Agnès von
Neuenburg, but the chronology appears not to fit.

Leo's great website also provides this linkage:

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00177588&tree=LEO

While looking through the archives I came across John P. Ravilious
post on 8 Nov 2006;

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/83e0a41b1eb8fde5?hl=en+fc374e15a&&q=William+Grandison+Tregoz

Pierre d. between 29 Dec 1257 & 15 Jul 1259 per ES XI:153 & ES XV:7.
William d. 27 Jun 1335 per CP VI:62, ES XI:154, Turton, Watney 460 &
973.

How likely is it that a son would outlive his father 76-78 years in
the 1200-1300's? Per ES, William also outlived his brothers by 35 to
53 years (see http://genealogy.euweb.cz/french/grandson2.html). Not
impossible, but surely a red flag that it is highly probable that
there is a generation missing between William & Pierre.

Unless my assumptions are incorrect. Has anyone discovered anything
different?

[Doug Thompson]

I have recently come across evidence for an early marriage between a
daughter of Philip de Braose and a member of the Tregoz family.

I have explained the details on my blog http://braoseweb.blogspot.com .

Doug Thompson

http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/stage.htm

[PDel...@aol.com]

Luckily or unluckily, my paternal family is the senior representative of
the House of Grandson nowadays. This means, to a certain extent, that the
family holds a very important primary source for the genealogy of the
Grandsons, as well as its branches the Sires de Belmont and La Sarra.

I have, amongst my very voluminous papers on this family, the following:

Guillaume de Grandson x Sybil de Tregoz,

son of :

Amédée/Amé sire de Grandson, viv 1278 + 1300
x
Benoite de La tour de Gerenstein, viv 1278

son of:

Pierre I sire de Grandson, chatelain de Moudon, chevalier, vicaire temporel
de l'èvèque de Lausanne, viv 30/1/1255, + 31/8/1263
x
Agnes, fa Ulrich graf von Neuenburg, viv 1263

Guillaume de Grandson was brother to:
1) Jacques, chevalier, sire de Belmont, viv 1297, who swore fealty to
his suzerain the Sire de Montferrand and his wife the dame de La Sarra(z),
my ancestors.
2) Agnes x Aymon sire de Montagny



Peter

[PDel...@aol.com]

[Wjhonson]

Unless you mean DNA testing, the family has no additional access to any credible document that the general public does not as well.

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[John]

FWIW the possibility that Amédée de Grandson, rather than Pierre, is
the father of Guillaume/William, Lord Grandison (who married Sybil de
Tregoz) is mentioned in a roundabout way in CP 6:69 footnote b, in the
context of the biography of William's supposed brother Otes, Lord
Grandison. incidentally Peter's note above does not mention Otes as a
brother of Guillaume/William.

The footnote in CP doesn't reach afirm conclusion on the paternity
issue but seems to lean in favor of Pierre rather than Amédée as the
father of both Otes and William. It does cite, with some doubt, a
source to support Amédée as the father of William (and by extension
Otes), but in a quick check of the source (which is available on the
Gallica website - BNF) I can't immediately find that the cited source
actually supports the parentage indicated - or the alternative
parentage.

Peter, can you give us more details on the specific source of this
information in your family files? The limited information you've
given above on the [only?] two siblings of Guillaume represents a
pretty significant departure from at least one standard account of the
family - Schwennicke's ESNF vol. 11.

[John]

Another note:

Here's a Swiss source from the 19th century which places Amédée, son
of Pierre, as the father of Guillaume - and also of Otes. See p. 423.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-DNCAAAAcAAJ

[xager8on]

Agree it would be nice to see Peter's source.

Thanks, John for the link. I have had the assumption that Amédée could
be the intermediary generation. I will read that tomorrow.

Brad

[Douglas Richardson]

There is a lengthy article in print by C.L. Kingsford entitled "Sir
Otho de Grandison (1238?-1328)," published in Transactions of the
Royal Historical Society, 3rd Series 3 (1909):125-196. This article
may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=usQIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA125

Kingsford identifies Sir Otho de Grandison as the son of Peter de
Grandson, lord of Grandson, who died about 1258, leaving a widow,
Agnes, and six sons, Otho, Gerard, James, Henry, Peter, and William,
and several daughters. He states that the birth order of the sons of
Peter de Grandson "is determined by a deed of August 31, 1263, under
which Agnes and her sons sold the 'Peage de Grandson' to Peter of
Savoy for an annual rent charge on Cuarnie, Pomers and Crotnei. It
begins: 'Nos Agnes, domina de Grandisono, tutrix legitima liberorum
nostrorum Petri et Willielmi, Girardus, Jaquetus et Henricus, pro se
et fratre suo Otonino, filii predicte domine &c.'". Kingsford adds:
"Otho was plainly absent; for his brothers contracted in his behalf,
and promised to obtain his consent. Minutes of Evidence, p. 169, with
deed in full." END OF QUOTE.

Kingsford further identifies Sir Otho de Grandison as the brother of
Sir William de Grandison [of England] and Henry de Grandison [parson
of Greystoke, Cumberland, 1276-1285, afterwards Bishop of Verdun]. He
also indicates that Sir Otho de Grandison had the following known
nephews: John and William de Bonvillars (or Bono Villario); Peter and
William d'Estavayer (or Staney, Estaney); Gerard de Grandison; Otho de
Grandison; Theobald de Grandison; Gerard d'Oron (or Orons); Sir John
de Stratelinges (or Stradling); and Eudric, Gerard, and Peter de
Wyppans,

There is further information on the Grandison family in La Seigneurie
de Belmont au Pays de Vaud, 1154-1553 (1955): 56, which reads as
follows:

"Jacques de Grandson était fils de Pierre Ier de Grandson et, peut-
être, d'Agnes de Chiny. Après la mort de leur père, Jacques et ses
frères tinrent leur héritage en indivision durant un certain temps.
Un partage survint cependant avant 1275. Une clause de traité de
partage ... " END OF QUOTE.

I note that the obit of Jacques de Grandison, seigneur of Belmont, is
recorded in the Grandison breviary in England. "2 Kal. Aug. Obit, dni
Jacobi de Grandeson dns de Bello Monte." [see Complete Peerage, 6
(1926): 62].

A short article "Note sur un Othon de Grandson," by D. Martignier,
was published in Gaullier, Étrennes nationales (1845): 263-264, which
may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=169DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA263

Martignier states that Othon de Grandison died testate in 1328 and was
buried in Lausanne Cathedral. This is the same person as Sir Otho de
Grandison who went to England. Martignier further states that Othon
de Grandison was succeeded at his death in the seigneurie of Grandson
by Pierre, seigneur of Belmont, who had married Blanche de Savoie.
Reference is made to an "acte" of 1275 which mentions Othon, seigneur
de Grandson; Jacques, seigneur of Belmont, chevalier, and three other
brothers, Buardus (or Burcardus), Henri, and Willerme.

I assume the "acte" of 1275 is the same document as the partage
document dated 1275 mentioned further above. I also assume that the
name, Buardus, is a misreading of the name, Girardus.

As noted above, the mother of Jacques de Grandison (brother of Otho de
Grandison) is identified as "perhaps Agnes de Chiny." That her given
name was Agnes is proven by her obit in the Grandison breviary in
England [see Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 69, footnote b]. She is
likewise named Agnes in the document dated 1263 cited by Kingsford
above. I have no particulars on a Chiny connection.

Lastly, the claim that Otho de Grandison was the son and heir of
Amédée/Amé, sire de Grandson, who occurs 1278-1300, and his wife,
Benoite de La Tour, can be proven to be erroneous by the documents
cited above. That Otho de Grandison was the son and heir of his
father (and not Amédée) is proven by the fact that Otho was seigneur
of Grandson in 1275, not Amédée. Otho de Grandison was still
seigneur of Grandson in 1328 at the time of his death. Moreover, it
is a proven fact that the mother of Otho and his brother, William (in
England) was named Agnes, not Benoite.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[lostcopper]

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

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How on earth could you possibly know that? You couldn't.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my previous post, I stated "That Otho de Grandison was the son and

heir of his father (and not Amédée) is proven by the fact that Otho
was seigneur of Grandson in 1275, not Amédée."

I meant to say "That Otho de Grandison was the son and heir of his
father Pierre (and not Amédée) is proven by the fact that Otho was
seigneur of Grandson, not Amédée."

Mémorial de Fribourg 2 (1855): 61-65, 69-70 contains helpful
information on Agnes de Grandson, sister of Otho de Grandson (died
1328). This source indicates that Agnes de Grandson married (as his
2nd wife) before 1266 Ulric I de Vuippens (died c. 1270), seigneur of
Vuippens, by whom she had three sons, Pierre, Guillaume, and Girard.
Agnes left a will dated July 1298. See the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=n2kXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA61

This above information agrees with Kingsford's statements that Otho de
Grandson had nephews named Eudric [sic], Gerard, and Peter de Wyppans.

[PDel...@aol.com]

Another source for Othon de Grandson is my late godmother's book, A knight
of great renown, - ~Esther R Clifford

Peter

[xager8on]

Much appreciated Doug. If Peter can shed light on the Amédée
connection, I will update my database with this information.

Thanks again,

Brad

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I checked additional sources regarding the Grandison-Grandson family
this morning. I find many secondary sources in print which make
statements about this family without the slightest documentation, so
one has to be very careful.

Even so, I 've finally determined why Agnes, the mother of Otes (or
Othon) and William/Guillaume de Grandison, is called Agnes de Chiny in
one source I cited yesterday. It is certain that Othon and William
had two brothers, Gerard and Henri de Grandson, both of whom became
Bishops of Verdun. I checked on the bishops and found the following
information in print regarding them in Annales de l'Institut
Archéologique du Luxembourg, LIVme Année - Tome XXXV (1900): 252-253.
As we can see below, it is claimed that Gerard and Henry de Grandson
were kinsmen of the Count of Burgundy, and also that their mother was
the sister of the Count of Chiny.

"Le février 1273, mourait Ulric de Sarnay, soixantième évêque de
Verdun. Depuis plus d'un siècle, à chaque novelle élection, les
regards et les cœurs se portaient vers la maison de Chiny. Il y avait
alors dans ce comté deux frères nommés Gérard & Henri Granson,
lesquels, on le sait, étaient descendants des comtes de Bourgogne et
de ceux de Chiny. 'Ces deux frères estoient natifs d'une petite ville
nommée Grandson, située près le comte de Bourgogne, en la descente de
mont Jura, ou est Saint-Claude et le lac de Lausanne, laquelle
appartenout pour lors audict comte de Bourgogne, combien que les dicts
frères et l'aisné d'iceulx eussent en icelle at aux environs grosses
rentes, leurs terrres et seigneuries, et à raison de quoy portoient le
surnom de Grandson'. Des difficultés s'élevèrent au sujet de ces
biens entre les deux frères et leur parent le comte de Bourgogne : peu
à peu elles s'aggraverent à tel point que les deux frères, abandonnant
la Bourgogne, vinrent s'établir au comte de Chiny. Ils y 'avoient
aussi gros biens et seigneuries, à raison de leur mère quo estoit sœur
de comte de Chisni.' Ces seigneurs étaient tous deux entrés dans la
cléricature. Leur parenté avec le comte de Chiny et l'appur que leur
préta ce prince les fit choisir successivement pour occuper un siége
illustre par plusieurs membres de leur famille." END OF QUOTE.

The Count of Burgundy in 1273 was Philip de Savoy, Count of Savoy,
whose mother was Béatrix of Geneva, daughter of Guillaume I, Count of
Geneva (died 1195). That there was definitely a connection between
the Geneva family and the Grandson family is indicated by the fact
that an uncle of Gerard and Henri de Grandson, namely Aimon [de
Grandson], Bishop of Geneva, was styled “cousin” in letter of
Guillaume II, Count of Geneva, dated 1252. See Régeste Genevois
(1866): 211, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=49a7QVrb17kC&pg=PA211

Guillaume II, Count of Geneva, was uncle of Philip of Savoy, Count of
Savoy and Burgundy.

Most sources state that Ebal IV de Grandson, grandfather of the Gerard
and Henri de Grandson, was married to another Béatrix of Geneva,
daughter of Amédée I, Count of Geneva. If correct, then this Béatrix
of Geneva would be the aunt of Guillaume II, Count of Geneva, and the
great-aunt of Philip of Savoy. That looks good.

But I have seen another source that states the Ebal IV de Grandson was
married to Béatrix de Geneva, daughter of Humbert III, Count of
Geneva. I assume this is the Humbert, Count of Geneva, who died c.
1225, who was the son of Guillaume I, Count of Geneva. This Humbert
was half-brother of Guillaume II, Count of Geneva.

As far as I can tell from a superficial examination, the chronology
would work better if Béatrix, wife of Ebal IV de Grandson, was the
daughter of Humbert, Count of Geneva, who died c.1225. This would
also make sense from a historical perspective as Humbert, Count of
Geneva, had a son, Pierre (or Peter) of Geneva, who came to England
and was Governor of Windsor Castle, 1248–9.

If Béatrix, wife of Ebal IV de Grandson, was placed as a daughter of
Humbert, Count of Geneva, it would mean that Pierre (or Peter) of
Geneva who came to England was the great uncle of Othon and William/
Guillaume de Grandson who also came to England.

However, I have not been able to determine if it is possible for
Humbert, Count of Geneva, to have had a daughter named Béatrix.
Possibly others who are more knowledgeable about the Geneva family can
tackle that question.

The actual source for the Chiny connection will be addressed in my
next post.

[Wjhonson]

So it seems sensible to you, that one collateral branch would have documents, lain unpublished in some kind of "family chest" for 800 years? That really seems likely?

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com

[Wjhonson]

And we're all so grateful that those important "family documents" that have been molding away for 700 years are now coming to light....

-----Original Message-----
From: PDeloriol <PDel...@aol.com>

To: royalancestry <royala...@msn.com>; GEN-MEDIEVAL-L <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 1:25 am
Subject: Re: William de Grandison husband of Sybil de Tregoz (who are his parents?)

Another source for Othon de Grandson is my late godmother's book, A knight
of great renown, - ~Esther R Clifford

Peter

-------------------------------

[Peter Stewart]

On 21/02/2012 3:07 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I checked additional sources regarding the Grandison-Grandson family
> this morning. I find many secondary sources in print which make
> statements about this family without the slightest documentation, so
> one has to be very careful.
>
> Even so, I 've finally determined why Agnes, the mother of Otes (or
> Othon) and William/Guillaume de Grandison, is called Agnes de Chiny in
> one source I cited yesterday. It is certain that Othon and William
> had two brothers, Gerard and Henri de Grandson, both of whom became
> Bishops of Verdun. I checked on the bishops and found the following
> information in print regarding them in Annales de l'Institut
> Archéologique du Luxembourg, LIVme Année - Tome XXXV (1900): 252-253.
> As we can see below, it is claimed that Gerard and Henry de Grandson
> were kinsmen of the Count of Burgundy, and also that their mother was
> the sister of the Count of Chiny.
>
> "Le février 1273, mourait Ulric de Sarnay, soixantième évêque de
> Verdun. Depuis plus d'un siècle, à chaque novelle élection, les
> regards et les cœurs se portaient vers la maison de Chiny. Il y avait

> alors dans ce comté deux frères nommés Gérard& Henri Granson,

When you consult "the actual source" you will find that the count of
Burgundy referred to as a relative of the Grandson brothers was not
Philippe of Savoy (de Savoie, by the way, not “de Savoy”), whatever his
co-incidental relationships, but rather his step-son Otho of Salins; and
that not only the geography was messed up as noted by Goffinet but also
the chronology.

The decamping of Gerard and his brother to their alleged uncle in Chiny
as a result of their falling out with Otho is supposed to have taken
place before the election of Gerard as bishop of Verdun, which happened
in 1275, yet Otho was already said to have married his second wife
Mahaut d’Artois, who was 6 or 7 years old in 1275 and did not marry
until 1291.

Peter Stewart

[John]

On Feb 20, 8:07 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~

>
>
>
> The actual source for the Chiny connection will be addressed in my
> next post.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

And what is the source for the Chiny connection?

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The parentage of Béatrix, wife of Ebal IV, sire of Grandson, who was
the grandmother of Othon and William de Grandison who came to England,
is discussed in Gingins-La-Sarra, Histoire de la Cité et du Canton des
Équestres (1865): 398. The discussion is copied below and may be

viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WH34kz3JPpYC&pg=PA398

“Amédée Ier, comte de Genevois, étant mort à la fin du mois de juin
1178, laissant de Mathilde, sa femme, deux fils et une ou deux filles,
Guillaume Ier, leur fils aîné, succéda à son père dans le gouvernement
du comté de Genevois; Amédée, le puîné, fut seigneur de Gex et
l’auteur de cette branche de la maison de Genève. L’une des filles du
comte Amédée Ier était mariée à Henry premier du nom, sire de
Faucigny. La seconde, Béatrix, parait avoit été la femme d'Ebald IV,
sire de Grandson, et la mère d’Aymon, évêque de Genève (de 1216 à
1260), que Guillaume II, comte de Genève, qualifie de consanguin
(consanguineus meus) dans son testament.” END OF QUOTE.

The parentage of Béatrix seems to be conjectural, it being solely
based on her son, Aimon de Grandson, Bishop of Geneva, being styled
"kinsman" [consanguineus] in a letter of Guillaume II, Count of
Geneva, dated 1252.

[John]

The parentage of Béatrix may be conjectural based on this particular
source, but you obviously haven't bothered to check out other, non-
Internet sources on the Counts of Geneva (not to mention the
Grandsons) before you jumped to this conclusion. You certainly should
be aware of standard references on these and other continental
families that you should investigate. However, it seems to useless to
point out such references to you. Get thee to a library!!

[Peter Stewart]

It does seem to be taking quite a while for Douglas Richardson to make
his "next" post as promised in his last-but-one post.

Peter Stewart

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Castelnuevo & Mattéoni, Les Châtelains des Princes à la Fin du Moyen
Âge (2006): 180–181 includes some comments on Pierre de Grandson,
seigneur de Grandson, the father of Othon and William de Grandison who
came to England. I've copied this information below, which may also

be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1Ihj7Kx6kkoC&pg=PA180

Specifically the material below discusses Pierre de Grandson's office
as châtelain de Moudon about the year 1255. It also mentions his
brother, Henri, seigneur of Champvent.

"Seul représentant de haute noblesse seigneuriale, Pierre de Grandson
est cité comme châtelain de Moudon dans un acte datable des environs
de 1255. Attestés depuis le milieu du XIe siècle, les Grandson
étaient certainement la plus puissante des familles nobles du pays de
Vaud. La presence de Pierre de Grandson merite d’être soulignée, car
c’est la seule et unique trace d’un Grandson ayant jamais assume une
fonction administrative dans le pays de Vaud savoyard au cours des
XIIIe et XIVe siècles. Si les Grandson étaient probablement de trop
grands seigneurs pour être châtelains, ou meme baillis, quel sens faut-
il donner alors a la fonction remplie à Moudon par Pierre au milieu du
XIIIe siècle. Avec son frère Henri, seigneur de Champvent, Pierre de
Grandson assiste en fait à toutes les operations menées par Pierre de
Savoie dans la région, en particular les reprises de fief et les
arbitrages. Parfois même, il reçoit des hommages vassaliques au nom
de Pierre de Savoie." END OF QUOTE.