Cecily (Bardolf) de Morley and her ancestry
John P. Ravilious
Dear Will, Doug, Brom, et al.,
In the recent past there has been discussion of the
identity of Agnes, wife of Sir Thomas Bardolf (Lord Bardolf)
with specific reference to her alleged identification as a
daughter of Sir William de Grandison. For descendants of the
Lords Morley, this had apparent implication concerning the
ancestry of the mother of Cecily Bardolf, wife of William de
Morley (d. 1379). This identification of Cecily's parentage
has been a long-standing question in itself, and has been
based largely on an entry in Complete Peerage:
'As early as in 1327 and 1328 Robert de Morley had
settled the reversion of the manor of Roydon, & c.,
on Cicely, da. of Thomas Bardolph (Feet of Fines,
Norfolk, Edw. III, no. 37).' [1]
It is possibly that the original text reads as given, but
what is presently available for review regarding the above is
in the Calendar of Feet of Fines for Norfolk, as follows:
' 37. Cecilia.... Bardolf v. Robt. de Morle, of the
manors of Reydon and Sheryngham. Also the said
Cecilia v. Robt., of the said manors. ' [2]
While the foregoing is fragmentary, it does appear that
this was in fact a fine, and while it appears to have
involved a marriage settlement it was between two adults:
Robert de Morley, father of the prospective groom William
(then a minor of about 7 years of age), and Cecily, quite
evidently not a minor.
This determination actually assists in leading to
resolution of the parentage of Cecily, wife of William de
Morley. We know she was a Bardolf, given testimony to that
effect in the will of William de Morley himself [3]. We
can also be reasonably certain she was herself a minor when
affianced to the young William de Morley, and thereby not
an active party to the above cited fine.
There is no identifiable adult member of the family of
the Lords Bardolf (by birth or marriage) named Cecily at
this period that I can identify: however, we do know the
name of the widow of Sir Thomas Bardolf of Spixworth,
Norfolk was Cecily. Among several other documents
concerning this family, the following record of a suit
by Cecily in Easter term, 6 Edward I makes it clear she
was the widow of Sir Thomas, who had died sometime before
8 October 1310:
' John of Clavering was summoned to answer Cecily that
was wife of Thomas Bardolph of Spixworth of a plea why
he together with Simon Blundel took the beasts of her,
Cecily, and unjustly detained them against gage and
pledges etc. And thereof the same Cecily complains
by Roger East, her attorney, that the aforesaid John
together with etc. did on the Thursday next after the
Feast of St. Faith in the fourth year of the lord
King that now is, in the vill of Frettenham, in
a place which is called Thweytfen, take seventeen
cows, the property of her, Cecily, and them did
unjustly detain against gage etc. until etc. ' [4]
The reference in CP (apparently defective as noted above)
is the one source pointing to a Thomas Bardolf as Cecily's
father, but Sir Thomas Bardolf of Spixworth, having died in
or before 1310, is a poor candidate. He left an adult son
and heir John Bardolf, and a daughter Joan who was holding
lands in Frettenham, Norfolk by Thomas' gift (living or
testamentary) [see pedigree in forthcoming post]. John and
Joan were already in disagreement with the disposition of
the lands in Frettenham, and entered into an agreement in
1310 concerning same [5].
It is highly unlikely that a sibling of John and Joan
Bardolf would have been married to William Bardolf, who
would not be born for another 9 years after their settlement
in 1310. However, John Bardolf was married in 1310 to his
first wife; he would be married to a second wife Katherine
in 1316 or before, who was the mother of his son and heir
Thomas [6]. We know that Cecily Bardolf, wife of William
de Morley, had an eldest son John de Morley who died
during his father's lifetime, leaving the well-known
younger brother Thomas de Morley (d. 1416) to succeed. I
suggest that Cecily was actually the daughter of John
Bardolf and his wife Catherine, and not the daughter of
Thomas Bardolf (the elder, or his grandson). The Cecily
Bardolf of the 1326/7 fine was not the prospective bride,
but rather her paternal grandmother (widow of the
deceased Sir Thomas Bardolf) acting on her behalf.
Further evidence will be provided in the pedigree
appearing in a followup post. As always, additional
documentation, comment and criticism is welcome.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] CP IX:216, sub Morley.
[2] Rye, Cal. Feet Fines Norfolk, p. 277.
[3] Will of Sir William de Morley, printed in Testamenta
Vetusta, dated 15 April 1379 provides in part:
'...to Sir Thomas Morley, Knt. my son and heir, my best
dorser, four costers, and one banker with my arms;
and to the said Sir Thomas the plate belonging to
Cecily, my wife, marked with the arms of Bardolph.'
[4] Year Books of Edward II, Selden Soc. Vol. XLIII
(1926), p. 157. Concerning the incident cited in
the plea, the Feast of St. Faith is October 6. The
Thursday following, 4 Edw II was 8 October 1310.
[5] record of a fine, Easter term, 3 Edw II [probably
ca. 19 April 1310]:
' 336. [3rd Edward II.] John Bardolf and Christiana his
wife v. Johanna, dau. of Thom. Bardolf de Spikesworth,
of the manor of Frettenham and advowson of the church
of Frettenham: with a postea dated 6th Edward II. John
Bardolf v. said Johanna, of the said manor and advowson
of Frettenham. ' [Rye, Cal. Feet Fines Norfolk, p. 236]
[6] Eller, Memorials of West Winch, p. 118, with regards
to the career of Sir Thomas Bardolf of Spixworth,
continues (with regard to the manor of Bardolphs in
West Winch, Norfolk):
' From him the manor passed to John Bardolph, of Frettenham,
who, with Catherine, his wife, by deed dated at Hickling,
10th Edw. III., covenanted with Thomas de Essex, that in
consideration of Thomas, their son, espousing Annice, the
daughter of Thomas Essex, they would at the then approaching
Easter term, settle on the said Thomas, and Annice, his
intended wife, and the heirs of their two bodies begotten,
in tail, their MANOR of WEST WINCH, with the appurtenances,
and for that purpose would also levy a fine in the King's
Court, in due form of law; but in case there should be no
issue of the marriage, then the said estate to revert to the
said John Bardolph, and Catherine his wife, and to the
heirs of the said John in fee. The settlement, which is in
Norman French, contains provisions for the sustenance of
the said Thos. Bardolph, and his intended wife, during his
minority. The deed bears a seal, with an impress of a
shield of arms with five cinquefoils ; a bearing which
implies that the family were connected with the Lords
Bardolph, of Wormegay, but, as yet, the links of this
connection have not been discovered. '
* John P. Ravilious
wjhonson
of John de Northwode "the younger" and was granted Northwode
Chastiners for life Sep 8 1318 by her father-in-law.
John Ravilous posted the evidence that in 1331/2 she, by her parents,
was granted the manor of Lydiard.
Also CPR has the grant of the heir and marraige of John de Northwode
to the Earl of Richmond in 1321, indicating that Roger de Northwode
was still then a minor.
Now I will present further that Agnes was yet still living in 1347
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v7/body/Edward3vol7page0438.pdf
CPR, Edward 3, Vol 7, page 438
1347, Nov 18, Langley
"Whereas Peter de Grandissono lately granted to Roger de Bello
Campo and Sibyl, his wife, in tail male, the reversion of the manor of
Lideyard Tregoz, co Wilts, the advowson of the church thereof
excepted, which is held in chief, expectant on the demise of Agnes de
Northwode, the present tenant, without license, the king has pardoned
the trepass in this behalf and granted that Roger and Sibyl may enter
upon the same after the death of Agnes and hold the manor in tail male
on condition that if they die without heir male of their bodies, the
manor shall revert to the grantor and his heirs. By p.s."
Will Johnson
WJhonson
Might I present for your edification, the evidence of the *death* terminus for Agnes de Northwode, widow of John "the younger" Northwode.
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v8/body/Edward3vol8page0265.pdf
CPR, Edward 3, Vol 8, page 265
Mar 18, Langley
"Presentation of John Lacer to the church of Lydierd Tregoz, in the diocese of Salisbury, in the king's gift by reason of the lands late of Agnes de Northwode, deceased, tenant in chief, being in his hands."
Will Johnson
Rosie Bevan
Dear Will
Agnes died on 4 December 1348, according to her ipm [CIPM IX no.99].
Rosie
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
Following is the promised (partial) pedigree of the
Bardolfs of Spixworth, Norfolk, from the earliest certain
generation down to that of Cecily Bardolf, wife of William
de Morley, and her brother Thomas. Part of the evidence on
which the identification of Cecily's parentage is based is
onomastic (Cecily being evidently named for her maternal
grandmother) and heraldic (see ref. to the seal of her
father, John Bardolf, bearing 5 cinqfoils).
Direct evidence is being sought: at the same time, there
is some evidence in land tenures noted. In the text of the
pedigree, mention of the tenure of West Winch, Norfolk
(specifically the manor called Bardolphs) is shown as
provided by Rev. George Eller, extending at least as early
as 1268. It appears that the overlordship of West Winch
may have been part of the maritagium of Cecily on her
marriage to William Bardolf, based on the record of an
inquistion at Lynn, 'die Lune proximo post festum Sancte
Agnetis ' 3 Hen IV [23 January, 1401/02] for an aid for the
marriage of Blanche, daughter of King Henry IV of England:
' Heredes Thome Bardolf de Spykesworthe tenent
j. f. m. in West Wynch et South Lynne de Thoma Morlee,
et idem de rege, ut parcellam baronie de Ry. ' [1]
Sir Thomas Morley was the son of Cecily Bardolf: it
appears that West Winch was held of him in 1401/02 by his
cousin Thomas Bardolf of Spixworth. It is possible this
might be confirmed from the IPM of Thomas Bardolf.
This reconstruction of the ancestry of Cecily Bardolf
has implications for many Morley descendants (Farrar,
Asfordby, etc.), as well as (presumably) those of Margaret
de Kerdeston, sister of Cecily. Should anyone have further
relevant documentation, comment or criticism, that would be
welcome as always.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids,
p. 521.
______________________________________________
BARDOLF of Spixworth, Norfolk
1 William Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1268
Father: [possibly] Peter Bardolf, of Spixworth, Norfolk
of Spixworth
re: the manor of Bardolphs in West Winch, Norfolk, Rev. George Eller
wrote in part:
' At a very early period it belonged to the family of the Bardolphs,
of Spixworth, of
whom it is stated by Blomefield, vol. x., p. 417 and 454, that
Thomas,
son of William Bardolph, on his purchase in the 52nd Henry III.,
A.D. 1268, of the Manor of Frettenham of Robert le Poure,
charged his Manors of Spixworth and West Winch with an annuity
to the said Robert, of 20 marks per annum. In the succeeding
reign, he, with James de Beauvais, occurs in the feodary books as
holding one fee in West Winch, of Richard Fitz-Simon, (see page
76.) .' [Eller, Memorials of West Winch, pp. 117-1181]
his son Thomas called ' Thomas, son of William Bardolf ' [Proceedings
of the Society of Antiquaries of London, p. 213]
Children: Sir Thomas (-<1310)
1.1 Sir Thomas Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 8 Oct 13102
of Spixworth, Frettenham, and Bardolphs in West Winch, Norfolk
he evidently succeeded his father as lord of Spixworth in or before
1268:
' In 52 Henry III. Thomas, son of William Bardolf, was
lord ...' [Proceedings
of the Society of Antiquaries of London, p. 213]
record of a plea in 1275 or before gives in part:
' The Sheriff sends word that Thomas Bardolf, of Spykesworth,
mainperned to have the moneys on this day, and had them not; wherefore
he is in mercy. Judgment, that, whereas the Sheriff had mandate to
have the moneys on this day, and had them not, but answered
insufficiently and unduly, since he answers only as to mainprise by
one as in contempt of the King's mandate.... the Sheriff, to-wit
William Gyffard, is in mercy...'[Calendar of the Plea Rolls of the
Exchequer of the Jews (1273-1275), p. 1563]
{Note: William Giffard had ceased being sheriff of Norfolk before 24
May 1275.
CCR 1272-1279, 3 Edw I, p. 172, mem. 154]}
surety for Sir John le Marchal, acknowldgement dated at Westminster,
22 Oct 1279:
' John le Marchal, knight, acknowledges that he owes to Bartholomew
de
Castello, clerk, 250 marks ; to be levied, in default of payment, of
his lands
and chattels. To do this he found [as sureties] Adam de Creting, Warin
de Hereford, Thomas de Swaneton, and Thomas Bardulff of Spikeuor
[sic], who
constituted themselves principal debtors and granted that the
aforesaid sum
shall be levied of their lands and chattels. ' [CCR 7 Edw I, p. 582,
mem. 2d4]
Assize of the Hundred of Frethbrigge, Norfolk, 1302:
' Dominus [Thomas Bardolf et dominus Jacobus] de Balnato
tenent j. f. m. [in] Westweinz et Suthlenn. ' [Inquisitions and
Assessments relating to Feudal Aids, p. 4075]
he d. before 8 Oct 1310:
record of a suit by his widow, Easter term, 6 Edward I:
' John of Clavering was summoned to answer Cecily that was wife of
Thomas Bardolph of Spixworth of a plea why he together with Simon
Blundel took the beasts of her, Cecily, and unjustly detained them
against gage and pledges etc. And thereof the same Cecily complains
by Roger East, her attorney, that the aforesaid John together with
etc. did on the Thursday next after the Feast of St. Faith in the
fourth year of the lord King that now is *, in the vill of Frettenham,
in a place which is called Thweytfen, take seventeen cows, the
property of her, Cecily, and them did unjustly detain against gage
etc. until etc. ' [Year Books of Edward II, Selden Soc. Vol. XLIII
(1926), p. 1572]
* Note: the feast of St. Faith is October 6. The Thursday following,
4 Edw II was 8 October 1310.
________________________________
a record of the hundred of Frethebrigg for 1316 for 'Fyncheham' gives
Thomas Bardolf as a tenant, among others [Inquisitions and
Assessments
relating to Feudal Aids, p. 4525]
____________________________
re: the manor of Bardolphs in West Winch, Norfolk, Rev. George Eller
wrote in part:
' At a very early period it belonged to the family of the Bardolphs,
of Spixworth, of
whom it is stated by Blomefield, vol. x., p. 417 and 454, that
Thomas,
son of William Bardolph, on his purchase in the 52nd Henry III.,
A.D. 1268, of the Manor of Frettenham of Robert le Poure,
charged his Manors of Spixworth and West Winch with an annuity
to the said Robert, of 20 marks per annum. In the succeeding
reign, he, with James de Beauvais, occurs in the feodary books as
holding one fee in West Winch, of Richard Fitz-Simon, (see page
76.) .' [Eller, Memorials of West Winch, pp. 117-1181]
' 25 Edw. I., 1297 - The vill of
Fretingham was held for one fee by Thomas Bardolf of
Edmund, earl of Lancaster, as of the honour of
Lancaster (Cal. Inq.p.m., I, p. 138).
[SPIXWORTH.]
Count Roger held (before 1086) in Spikesuurd 2 car.
which Albert held (II, f. 243 b). The Bardolfs
subsequently held this manor, and in 25 Edw. I.,
1297, Thomas Bardolf held Spikesworth for one knight's
fee of Edmund, earl of Lancaster, as of the honour of
Lancaster ( Cal. Inq. p.m., I, p. 138). '[Farrer, Lancashire
Inquests, p. 1136]
Spouse: Cecily
Children: Joan
John (->1338)
1.1.1 Joan Bardolf
----------------------------------------
held lands in Frettenham [cited by John de Clavering in his defense
against plea of Cecily her mother - Year Books of Edward II, Selden
Soc. Vol. XLIII (1926), p. 1572]
1.1.2a John Bardolf*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 7 Jan 13387
of Spixworth and Frettenham, Norfolk
record of a fine, Easter term, 3 Edw II [ca. 19 April 1310]:
' 336. [3rd Edward II.] John Bardolf and Christiana his wife v.
Johanna, dau. of Thom. Bardolf de Spikesworth, of the manor of
Frettenham and advowson of the church of Frettenham: with a postea
dated 6th Edward II. John Bardolf v. said Johanna, of the said manor
and advowson of Frettenham. ' [Rye, Cal. Feet Fines Norfolk, p. 236]
~ this same fine is more detailed in Pub. Selden Soc., as follows:
' Notes from the Record.
I.
De Banco Rolls, Easter, 3 Edw. II (No. 181), r.30d, Norfolk..
John Bardolf and Christine his wife give half a mark for
licence to agree with Joan the daughter of Thomas Bardolf of
Spikesworth on a plea of covenant of tenements in Fretenham,
and of the advowson of the church ....
...
etc. to John Bardolf and Christian his wife and the heirs whom
John
should beget of the body of Christian.
[p. 104]
....
Trikyngham Hervey of Stanton John of Benstede Henry le Scrope
justices. Between John Bardolf and Christian his wife
plaintiffs and
Joan daughter of Thomas Bardolf of Spikesworth deforciant of the
manor of Frettenham and the advowson of the church of the same
town which Cecily the widow of Thomas Bardolf holds for a term
of her life and afterwards on the octave of St. John the Baptist
6 Edw. II there granted and recorded ....'[Publications of the
Selden Society, VI:103-4]
record of a fine of 17 Edw. II [between 7 Jul 1323 and 7 Jul 1324]::
' 970. John Bardolf of Spikesworth and Katherine his wife
v. John de Theford and John de Walsham, capell., of the
manor of Spikesworth. ' [Rye, Cal. Feet Fines Norfolk, p. 2697]
fine of 3 Edw III [between 7 Jan 1328/9 and 7 Jan 1329/30]:
' 82. Steph. de ware and Alicia his wife v. John Bardolf of
Spikeswurth and Rich. de Holdich, in Totyngton and Swanton
juxta Belhawe.' [Rye, Cal. Feet Fines Norfolk, p. 2807]
record of a fine between himself and his wife, and his son
Thomas and his wife, dated 10-11 Edw III
[between 7 Jan 1335/6 and 7 Jan 1337/8]:
422. Thos. fil' John Bardolf and Agn. his wife v. John Bardolf
and Kath. his wife, of the manor of Westwynch. ' [Rye, Cal.
Feet Fines Norfolk, p. 2997]
he d. sometime after acting as plaintiff in a fine of
13 Edw III [between 7 Jan 1338/39 and 7 Jan 1339/40]:
' 496. John Bardolf and Kath. his wife v. Hubert, parson of the
church of Spikesworth, and John, parson of the church of
Rakheyth All Saints, of the manor of Fretenham. ' [Rye,
Cal. Feet Fines Norfolk, p. 3047]
__________________________
' From him the manor passed to John Bardolph, of Frettenham,
who, with Catherine, his wife, by deed dated at Hickling, 10th
Edw. III., covenanted with Thomas de Essex, that in consideration
of Thomas, their son, espousing Annice, the daughter of Thomas
Essex, they would at the then approaching Easter term, settle on
the said Thomas, and Annice, his intended wife, and the heirs of
their two bodies begotten, in tail, their MANOR of WEST WINCH,
with the appurtenances, and for that purpose would also levy a
fine in the King's Court, in due form of law; but in case there
should be no issue of the marriage, then the said estate to revert
to the said John Bardolph, and Catherine his wife, and to the heirs
of the said John in fee. The settlement, which is in Norman French,
contains provisions for the sustenance of the said Thos. Bardolph,
and his intended wife, during his minority. The deed bears a
seal, with an impress of a shield of arms with five cinquefoils ; a
bearing which implies that the family were connected with the Lords
Bardolph, of Wormegay, but, as yet, the links of this connection have
not been discovered. ' [Eller, Memorials of West Winch, p. 1181]
Spouse: Christine [1st wife]
Death: aft Apr 13107
1.1.2b John Bardolf* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Katherine [2nd wife]
Death: aft 7 Jan 13387
Marr: ca 13167
Children: Cecily (-1386)
Thomas (-<1346)
1.1.2b.1 Cecily Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: 23 Nov 13868
Burial: Austin Friar's church, Norwich9
probable marriage (betrothal) as child:
'As early as in 1327 and 1328 Robert de Morley had settled the
reversion of the manor of Roydon, & c., on Cicely, da. of
Thomas Bardolph (Feet of Fines, Norfolk, Edw. III, no. 37).'8
she was m. to William de Morley before 7 Jan 1344/5:
record dated 18 Edw. III [between 7 Jan 1343/4 and 6 Jan 1344/5]:
' C 143/269/1
William de Morle to settle his manor of Aldeby on himself, Cecily
his wife, and his heirs, retaining the manor of Foulsham. Norfolk. '
10
styled 'Cecily de Morley, Lady of Aldeby' in her will [Testa. Vetusta,
Vol. I, p. 121]11
Spouse: William de Morley
Birth: 24 Jun 13198
Death: 30 Apr 1379, Hallingbury, Essex8
Father: Robert de Morley (-1359)
Mother: Hawise Marshal (ca1301-<1334)
Marr: bef 6 Mar 13448
Children: John (-<1379)
Sir Thomas (<1354-1416)
1.1.2b.2 Thomas Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 13465
of Spixworth, Norfolk
he m. Agnes probably in 1336, but certainly before 7 Jan 1337/8:
record of a fine between himself and his wife, and his father John
and his wife, dated 10-11 Edw III [between 7 Jan 1335/6 and 7 Jan
1337/8]:
422. Thos. fil' John Bardolf and Agn. his wife v. John Bardolf and
Kath. his wife, of the manor of Westwynch. ' [Rye, Cal. Feet Fines
Norfolk, p. 2997]
he evidently d. in 1346:
A. Assize of the Hundred of Frethbrigg, Norfolk, 1346:
' Thomas Bardolf de Spikesworth et heredes domini Jacobi de
Bellofago et tenentes sui tenent j. f. m. in W[est] Wynch et South
Lenn
de Ricardo filio Simonis, quod Thomas Bardolf et dominus Jacobus
de Balnato quondam tenuerunt. xl. s. ' [Inquisitions and
Assessments
relating to Feudal Aids, p. 5215]
~ Note: Rev. Eller believed this to pertain to his grandfather.
B. his heirs were found to hold 1 knight's fee in Frettenham, and
1/2 knight's fee in Tunstede:
' Heredes Thome de Bardolf de Spykesworth tenent j. f. m. in
Fretenham de comite Lancastrie, et idem de rege, quod Thomas
Bardolf quondam tenuit. xl. s.
I[b]idem heredes tenent in Spykesworth di. f. m. de manerio de
Tunstede, et idem de comite de Lancastrie, et comes de rege,
quod Thomas Bardolf quondam tenuit. (Quod quidem
di. f. solutum est in hundredo de Tunstede per Johannem
Strak). xx. s. ' [Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal
Aids, p. 5465]
_______________________________
' From him the manor passed to John Bardolph, of Frettenham,
who, with Catherine, his wife, by deed dated at Hickling, 10th
Edw. III., covenanted with Thomas de Essex, that in consideration
of Thomas, their son, espousing Annice, the daughter of Thomas
Essex, they would at the then approaching Easter term, settle on
the said Thomas, and Annice, his intended wife, and the heirs of
their two bodies begotten, in tail, their MANOR of WEST WINCH,
with the appurtenances, and for that purpose would also levy a
fine in the King's Court, in due form of law; but in case there
should be no issue of the marriage, then the said estate to revert
to the said John Bardolph, and Catherine his wife, and to the heirs
of the said John in fee. The settlement, which is in Norman French,
contains provisions for the sustenance of the said Thos. Bardolph,
and his intended wife, during his minority. The deed bears a
seal, with an impress of a shield of arms with five cinquefoils ; a
bearing which implies that the family were connected with the Lords
Bardolph, of Wormegay, but, as yet, the links of this connection have
not been discovered. ' [Eller, Memorials of West Winch, p. 1181]
Spouse: Agnes de Essex
Marr: ca 13367,1
Children: Cecily
Thomas (-<1383)
1.1.2b.2.1 Thomas Bardolf
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 23 Sep 1383
of Spixworth and Frettenham, Norfolk
the will of Thomas Bardolf of Spixworth dated 20 April 1383,
proved 23 Sept 1383, requested burial in the church of
Spixworth, and to which his wife Alice and others were
executors [The Norfolk Antiquarian Miscellany, p. 410, fol. 220b.]
record of a inquistion at Lynn, 'die Lune proximo post
festum Sancte Agnetis ' 3 Hen IV [23 January, 1401/02] fo
r an aid for the marriage of Blanche, daughter of the king:
' Heredes Thome Bardolf de Spykesworthe tenent j. f. m. in
West Wynch et South Lynne de Thoma Morlee, et idem de
rege, ut parcellam baronie de Ry. ' [Inquisitions and
Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids, p. 5215]
Spouse: Alice
1. Rev. George Eller, M.A., "Memorials, Archaeological and
Ecclesiastical, of the West Winch Manors, from the Earliest
Ages to the Present Period," King's Lynn: Thew & Son,
Publishers, 1861.
2. "Year Books of Edward II," Selden Soc. Vol. XLIII,
Publications of the Selden Society, 1926, courtesy Google
books.
3. J. M. Rigg, ed., "Calendar of the Plea Rolls of the Exchequer
of the Jews," Edward I, Vol. II (1273-1275), London: Printed
for Her Majesty's Stationery Office by Mackie & Co., LD.,
1910.
4. "Calendar of the Close Rolls," Edw I, vol. I (1272-1279),
London: Printed for Her Majesty's Stationery Office by
Mackie & Co., LD., 1904.
5. "Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids,"
London: H. M. Stationary Office, 1906, (reprinted 1973,
Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein), Vol. IV: Northampton
- Somerset.
6. William Farrer, ed., "Lancashire Inquests, Extents, and
Feudal Aids, A.D. 1205 - A.D. 1307," The Record Society
for the Publication of Original Documents relating to
Lancashire and Cheshire, Vol. XLVIII, Liverpool: W. Barton
and Co., 1903, courtesy Googlebooks.
7. Walter Rye, "A Short Calendar of the Feet of Fines for
Norfolk in the reigns of Richard ., John, Henry III., &
Edward I," Norwich: Agas H. Goose & Co., 1885.
8. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage,"
1910 - [microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The
Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great
Britain and the United Kingdom.
9. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in
Colonial and Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical
Publishing Company, 2004.
10. "National Archives,"
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
11. "Testamenta Vetusta," Nicholas Harris Nicolas, Esq., 2
Vols. London: Nichols & Son, Parliament Street, 1826,
[title con't]: Being Illustrations From Wills, wills of
John, Lord Montagu (d. 1390) and others extracted by
Timothy Powys-Lybbe.
taf
Norfolk tells that Robert Yelverton, grandfather of the Justice,
married Cecily Bardolf, daughter of Thomas, and the arms is the
cinquefoil. While I haven't looked that hard, I have yet to find the
slightest confirmation of this marriage, and it seems one of those
troublesome animals of the Visitation - a prominent marriage followed
by obscure ones, that makes one wonder about reliability. has anyone
found any support?
taf
John P. Ravilious
I have yet to note (or seek out) direct evidence for the
Yelverton-Bardolf marriage, but I have tentatively identified Thomas
Bardolf of Spixworth, Norfolk (d. bef 1346 - #1.1.2b.2 in the
foregoing pedigree) as the best candidate for father of Cecily, wife
of Robert de Yelverton. She would be in the next generation following
the Morley marriage; further, a marriage with the lords of Spixworth
is at least a step or two down the social scale from marrying directly
into the Bardolfs of Wormegay.
Cheers,
John
taf
> Dear Todd,
>
> I have yet to note (or seek out) direct evidence for the
> Yelverton-Bardolf marriage, but I have tentatively identified Thomas
> Bardolf of Spixworth, Norfolk (d. bef 1346 - #1.1.2b.2 in the
> foregoing pedigree) as the best candidate for father of Cecily, wife
> of Robert de Yelverton. She would be in the next generation following
> the Morley marriage; further, a marriage with the lords of Spixworth
> is at least a step or two down the social scale from marrying directly
> into the Bardolfs of Wormegay.
Which will, of course, come as a great disappointment to all of those
authors of internet pedigrees who show her as daughter of Thomas of W
and Agnes de Grandison (curious that the Spixworth alternative also
makes her mother Agnes). I note that the Visit. of Hunts shows the
same marriage, with the editor adding "of Spixworth", but without
indication of the basis. Still with the name Cecily, it looks likely.
taf
Douglas Richardson
Regarding the matter of the parentage of Cecily Bardolf (died 1386),
wife of Sir William de Morley, Knt., 3rd Lord Morley, Marshal of
Ireland, there is good evidence which indicates that Cecily was a
member of the baronial Bardolf family.
For starters, the will of her husband, Sir William de Morley, dated 26
April 1379, proved 6 Feb. 1379/80, leaves a bequest to "Sir Thomas
Morley, Knt. my son and heir... the plate belonging to Cecily, my wife,
marked with the arms of Bardolph." [Reference: Nicolas, Testamenta
Vetusta 1 (1826): 104-105].
Sir William de Morley's will may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7_wmAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA105&dq=Cecily+Bardolf+Morley#PRA1-PA104,M1
There are also in existence two ancient embroideries which apparently
bear the Morley and Bardolf arms. These embroideries are discussed in
the book, Women, Art and Patronage from Henry III to Edward III: 1216-
1377, by Loveday Gee (2002), pages 66-67as follows:
"Another embroidery, the life of the Virgin apparels in the Victoria
and Albert Museum, has been identified from the heraldry as having
belonged to William, Lord Morley, and his wife, Cicely Bardolf. The
same arms appear in the Escorial Psalter, which has an Austin Friars
calendar, where the female owner is shown on fol. 14v with her Austin
Friar confessor. These two embroideries each represent the patronage,
identified by heraldry, of a husband and wife who shared the same
devotional aspirations and allegiance to a particular church or order
... the Austin Friars ... there is evidence of the wife's piety ... Cecily
Bardolf is shown as the donor of the Escorial Psalter.").
As for Cecily Bardolf's specific placement in the Bardolf family,
Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 215 (sub Morley) identifies her as the
daughter of Thomas Bardolph [Lord Bardolph]. It states: "Her
father's name is given by Dugdale, citing Glover."
Cecily herself left a will dated 20 Sept. 1386, proved 7 Feb. 1386/7.
An abstract of this will can be found in Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1
(1826): 121, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7_wmAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA105&dq=Cecily+Bardolf+Morley#PRA1-PA121,M1
The only clue to Cecily's place in the Bardolf family provided by her
will is a bequest she makes to her sister, Dame Margaret Kerdeston.
In a footnote, the editor, Nicolas, identifies Cecily as the "daughter
of Thomas Lord Bardolph."
Elsewhere, I find that Cecily is likewise identified as the "daughter
of Thomas lord Bardolph" in the account of the Morley family found in
Banks, The Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England, 2 (1808): 356-358.
I assume that Nicolas and Banks are quoting either Glover or Dugdale
who identified Cecily's father as "Thomas lord Bardolph," rather than
his cousin, Sir Thomas Bardolf, of Spixworth, Norfolk. If so, then it
would seem that you have latched onto the wrong branch of the Bardolf
family. As a general rule, people like Glover or Dugdale would be
careful to distinguish between Thomas Lord Bardolf (a baron) and his
cousin, Sir Thomas Bardolf (a mere knight).
As you have noted, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 215, footnote g (sub
Morley) states that "as early as in 1327 and 1328" Robert de Morley
(presumably Sir William de Morley's father) "settled the reversion of
the manor of Roydon, &c., on Cicely, da. of Thomas Bardolph." It
cites as its source Feet of Fines, Norfolk, Edw. III, no. 37, which
document was evidently actually viewed.
However, you have upended the citation provided by Complete Peerage by
assuming that the fine was between two adults, which it need not be.
Instead, you have alleged the person receiving the reversion in
question was not Cecily, daughter of Thomas Bardolph, at all, but a
different woman, Cecily, widow of Sir Thomas Bardolf, of Spixworth.
Yet, this is not what Complete Peerage says.
Beyond this, I have nothing further to offer in the way of evidence of
Cecily Bardolf's parentage, except to note that there are apparently
deeds relating to the Morley family which are discussed in the
Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries, 2nd series, vol. 1, pg.
153, which I haven't yet seen. Cecily Bardolf is also mentioned in
2nd ser., Vol. 1, pg. 153, and Thomas Bardolf, Lord Bardolf, of
Wormegay is mentioned in 2nd ser., Vol. 1, pg. 152-153. I assume
these deeds involve Cecily Bardolf, wife of Sir William de Morley. If
so, they may well provide contemporary evidence of her parentage.
On a final note, I should mention that Complete Peerage spells the
name "Cicely" in its account of the Morley family. This name is the
female version of the man's name, Cecil. As such, the correct
standardized modern form should be Cecily rather than Cicely. I'm
well aware that you can find both Cecily and Cicely in the
contemporary records, but the more common form even back then was
Cecily. I see that the historian Gee spells it both ways in the same
paragraph. Now that's consistency!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
WJhonson
As such, the correct
standardized modern form should be Cecily rather than Cicely>>
There is no such thing as the "correct standardized modern form". We've been over that before.
Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
In a subsequent post, I note that you've presented a record which
states that in 1402 the unnamed heir of Thomas Bardolf of Spixworth,
Norfolk held 1 knight's fee in West Winch and South Lynne, Norfolk of
Thomas Morley, who in turn held these these properties of the king, it
being parcel of the barony of Rye. You've theorized that the Morley
family's interest in West Winch and South Lynne came through the
marriage of Thomas Morley's mother, Cecily Bardolf.
However, the record itself makes that virtually impossible. First, if
these estates were Cecily Bardolf's maritagium as you have suggested,
normally her son and heir would be holding her maritagium of her
family, not the other way around. Second, the record states that
these properties were held by Thomas Morley direct of the king as
parcel of the barony of Rye. If correct, then this can only mean that
the Morley family's interest in these properties arose not through
Thomas Morley's mother, Cecily Bardolf, but rather through Thomas
Morley's paternal grandmother, Hawise Marshal, who was the heiress of
the barony of Rye.
This in turn means that the Bardolf family of Spixworth were likely
tenants of Hawise Marshal's family before 1402. If so, that would
explain the record you found in which Thomas Bardolf, of Spixworth,
Norfolk, served as a surety in 1279 for John le Marshal, which person
was Hawise (Marshal) Morley's paternal grandfather. Thomas Bardolf
would have been one of the tenants of John le Marshal.
All in all, the evidence indicates that the properties at West Winch
and South Lynne can not have been the maritagium of Cecily Bardolf.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah.
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for your reply of yesterday. My comments are interspersed
below.
On Sep 25, 5:14 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear John ~
>
> Regarding the matter of the parentage of Cecily Bardolf (died 1386),
> wife of Sir William de Morley, Knt., 3rd Lord Morley, Marshal of
> Ireland, there is good evidence which indicates that Cecily was a
> member of the baronial Bardolf family.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, that Cecily was of _a_ Bardolf family I think is
certain. The longstanding presumption, and statements to the effect,
that she was of 'the baronial Bardolf family' appear to be only that.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> For starters, the will of her husband, Sir William de Morley, dated 26
> April 1379, proved 6 Feb. 1379/80, leaves a bequest to "Sir Thomas
> Morley, Knt. my son and heir... the plate belonging to Cecily, my wife,
> marked with the arms of Bardolph." [Reference: Nicolas, Testamenta
> Vetusta 1 (1826): 104-105].
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The will of 'Cecily de Morley, Lady of Aldeby' is likewise in
print, in the same volume you mention [Testamenta Vetusta I:121]. It
is unfortunate (but typical) that, beyond the reference to 'the arms
of Bardolph' in Sir William de Morley's will, neither made mention of
Cecily's parentage or landholdings (that is, an identifiable
maritagium).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Sir William de Morley's will may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=7_wmAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA105&dq=Cecily+...
>
> There are also in existence two ancient embroideries which apparently
> bear the Morley and Bardolf arms. These embroideries are discussed in
> the book, Women, Art and Patronage from Henry III to Edward III: 1216-
> 1377, by Loveday Gee (2002), pages 66-67as follows:
>
> "Another embroidery, the life of the Virgin apparels in the Victoria
> and Albert Museum, has been identified from the heraldry as having
> belonged to William, Lord Morley, and his wife, Cicely Bardolf. The
> same arms appear in the Escorial Psalter, which has an Austin Friars
> calendar, where the female owner is shown on fol. 14v with her Austin
> Friar confessor. These two embroideries each represent the patronage,
> identified by heraldry, of a husband and wife who shared the same
> devotional aspirations and allegiance to a particular church or order
> ... the Austin Friars ... there is evidence of the wife's piety ... Cecily
> Bardolf is shown as the donor of the Escorial Psalter.").
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I see no mention of Cecily's arms in the foreoing extract. Was
there any such mention in a footnote or other part of the work you
cite? The tinctures of the arms of Lord Bardolf are known; should we
find something identifiable as Cecily's arms, impaled or otherwise,
that would provide useful evidence, one way or the other.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> As for Cecily Bardolf's specific placement in the Bardolf family,
> Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 215 (sub Morley) identifies her as the
> daughter of Thomas Bardolph [Lord Bardolph]. It states: "Her
> father's name is given by Dugdale, citing Glover."
>
> Cecily herself left a will dated 20 Sept. 1386, proved 7 Feb. 1386/7.
> An abstract of this will can be found in Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1
> (1826): 121, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=7_wmAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA105&dq=Cecily+...
>
> The only clue to Cecily's place in the Bardolf family provided by her
> will is a bequest she makes to her sister, Dame Margaret Kerdeston.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
To date, other than this 'sisterly' reference in Cecily's will, I
have seen nothing helpful in records relating directly to Margaret, or
the Kerdeston family. I assume from the foregoing there is as yet no
direct evidence on the matter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> In a footnote, the editor, Nicolas, identifies Cecily as the "daughter
> of Thomas Lord Bardolph."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
An identification in a footnote, with no references or
documentation cited. Such a statement is not evidence, only an
unsupported statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Elsewhere, I find that Cecily is likewise identified as the "daughter
> of Thomas lord Bardolph" in the account of the Morley family found in
> Banks, The Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England, 2 (1808): 356-358.
>
> I assume that Nicolas and Banks are quoting either Glover or Dugdale
> who identified Cecily's father as "Thomas lord Bardolph," rather than
> his cousin, Sir Thomas Bardolf, of Spixworth, Norfolk. If so, then it
> would seem that you have latched onto the wrong branch of the Bardolf
> family.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If your assumptions as to uncited evidence by either Glover
(possible) or Banks (less likely) are correct, your statement would be
as well. Given there is no evidence cited, but only assumptions, we
are back to square one on the long-standing presumption of a
relationship between Cecily and the Lords Bardolf, no?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
As a general rule, people like Glover or Dugdale would be
> careful to distinguish between Thomas Lord Bardolf (a baron) and his
> cousin, Sir Thomas Bardolf (a mere knight).
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
As a general rule, one would like to think so. Given the total
lack of evidence cited, I think general rules need additional specific
grains of salt before consumption.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> As you have noted, Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 215, footnote g (sub
> Morley) states that "as early as in 1327 and 1328" Robert de Morley
> (presumably Sir William de Morley's father) "settled the reversion of
> the manor of Roydon, &c., on Cicely, da. of Thomas Bardolph." It
> cites as its source Feet of Fines, Norfolk, Edw. III, no. 37, which
> document was evidently actually viewed.
>
> However, you have upended the citation provided by Complete Peerage by
> assuming that the fine was between two adults, which it need not be.
> Instead, you have alleged the person receiving the reversion in
> question was not Cecily, daughter of Thomas Bardolph, at all, but a
> different woman, Cecily, widow of Sir Thomas Bardolf, of Spixworth.
> Yet, this is not what Complete Peerage says.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Agreed, that is not what Complete Peerage says. At this
juncture, it seems the identification in the CP account is in error.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Beyond this, I have nothing further to offer in the way of evidence of
> Cecily Bardolf's parentage, except to note that there are apparently
> deeds relating to the Morley family which are discussed in the
> Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries, 2nd series, vol. 1, pg.
> 153, which I haven't yet seen. Cecily Bardolf is also mentioned in
> 2nd ser., Vol. 1, pg. 153, and Thomas Bardolf, Lord Bardolf, of
> Wormegay is mentioned in 2nd ser., Vol. 1, pg. 152-153. I assume
> these deeds involve Cecily Bardolf, wife of Sir William de Morley. If
> so, they may well provide contemporary evidence of her parentage.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Any additional evidence that can be brought to bear on the
subject would be most interesting, and appreciated. If the foregoing
publications are located locally, I will let you know what is found.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> On a final note, I should mention that Complete Peerage spells the
> name "Cicely" in its account of the Morley family. This name is the
> female version of the man's name, Cecil. As such, the correct
> standardized modern form should be Cecily rather than Cicely. I'm
> well aware that you can find both Cecily and Cicely in the
> contemporary records, but the more common form even back then was
> Cecily. I see that the historian Gee spells it both ways in the same
> paragraph. Now that's consistency!
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Likewise, we find Bardolf and Bardulff in records of the period.
Consistency would be nice, not just with spelling, but with the
documents are well (assuming more details, not less). Unfortunately
we are some 600+ years too late to chide Great-Grandmother Cicely (er,
Cecily) on the matter........
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
The landholdings in West Winch, Norfolk are complicated, hence my
suggestion that these 'may have been part of the maritagium of
Cecily'. At the time of the Testa de Nevill, Ernald de Torley held a
half a knight's fee in 'Westweniz' of Simon fitz Richard fitz Simon,
which was of the fee of the 'Earl of Clare' ["comitis de Clara" -
Eller, Memorials of West Wimnch, p. 76]. Subsequently, as I noted in
my post, Eller wrote:
' At a very early period it belonged to the family of the
Bardolphs, of Spixworth, of whom it is stated by
Blomefield, vol. x., p. 417 and 454, that Thomas,
son of William Bardolph, on his purchase in the
52nd Henry III., A.D. 1268, of the Manor of
Frettenham of Robert le Poure, charged his Manors of
Spixworth and West Winch with an annuity to the said
Robert, of 20 marks per annum. In the succeeding
reign, he, with James de Beauvais, occurs in the
feodary books as holding one fee in West Winch, of
Richard Fitz-Simon, (see page 76.) .'
[Eller, Memorials of West Winch, pp. 117-1181]
By what process the lands of West Winch came later to be held of
Morley, of the barony of Rye, it not clear. This presumes they were
in fact the same lands in West Winch. It is however, not clear at
this point at all that the Morleys had any interest in West Winch
prior to the marriage of Cecily Bardolf and William de Morley - hence
my suggestion.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson
If the Morley family held West Winch and Lynn direct of the king as
part of the honour of Rye, they surely did not get these properties
through the marriage of Sir William de Morley to Cecily Bardolf.
Rather, the Morley family would have received these properties as part
of the inheritance of Sir William de Morley's mother, Hawise Marshal,
who was the heiress of the honour (or barony) of Rye. I'm sure that
if you check the history of the honour of Rye, you'ill find that these
properties were part of that honour long belong Cecily Bardolf's
time.
John Briggs
>
> On a final note, I should mention that Complete Peerage spells the
> name "Cicely" in its account of the Morley family. This name is the
> female version of the man's name, Cecil. As such, the correct
> standardized modern form should be Cecily rather than Cicely. I'm
> well aware that you can find both Cecily and Cicely in the
> contemporary records, but the more common form even back then was
> Cecily.
The name is, of course, Cecilia. There are diminutive or pet-forms: Cesse,
Cissot, Sissot, Syssot, Cesselot. Cisley or Cisselly are found in the 16th
century. That a male form ever existed is doubtful.
--
John Briggs
Douglas Richardson
On Sep 26, 5:12 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
> Dear Doug,
>
> Thanks for your reply of yesterday.
>
> Actually, that Cecily was of _a_ Bardolf family I think is
> certain. The longstanding presumption, and statements to the effect,
> that she was of 'the baronial Bardolf family' appear to be only that.
I believe if you check out Complete Peerage's reference to Dugdale,
you will find that Dugdale stated that Cacily Bardolf, wife of William
de Morley, was the daughter of Thomas, Lord Bardolf, as does his
source Glover. These gentlemen would have been fully aware that when
they identified Cecily's father as "Thomas Lord Bardolf," that they
were referring to Thomas Bardolf, 2nd Lord Bardolf, who died in 1328,
not some other person or a distant kinsman. Since we have good
evidence that Cecily was in fact a Bardolf, and we also have a fine
which refers to her as the "daughter of Thomas Bardolf," I think we
can be certain that Cecily was in fact the daughter of Thomas, 2nd
Lord Bardolf, just as Dugdale and Glover state. I'm assuming for the
present that Dugdale and Glover refer to Cecily's father as "Thomas
Lord Bardolph," not just "Thomas Bardolph." I'm sure one or the other
source can be easily checked by you as to the specific language.
If you're unsatisfied that Complete Peerage correctly translated the
fine involving Cecily, daughter of Thomas Bardolf, you might want to
view a copy of the fine in question and verify it for yourself. I
personally have no doubt that Complete Peerage got it right. That
would mean, of course, that your alleged alternative pedigree of
Cecily Bardolf would be disproven. Perhaps Chris Phillips can track
down this fine for you.
All the same, unless you have evidence to show otherwise, I believe
the current evidence indicates that Cecily was the daughter of Thomas
Bardolf, 2nd Lord Bardolf, not the daughter of John Bardolf, of
Spixworth, Norfolk.
> > There are also in existence two ancient embroideries which apparently
> > bear the Morley and Bardolf arms. These embroideries are discussed in
> > the book, Women, Art and Patronage from Henry III to Edward III: 1216-
> > 1377, by Loveday Gee (2002), pages 66-67as follows:
>
> > "Another embroidery, the life of the Virgin apparels in the Victoria
> > and Albert Museum, has been identified from the heraldry as having
> > belonged to William, Lord Morley, and his wife, Cicely Bardolf. The
> > same arms appear in the Escorial Psalter, which has an Austin Friars
> > calendar, where the female owner is shown on fol. 14v with her Austin
> > Friar confessor. These two embroideries each represent the patronage,
> > identified by heraldry, of a husband and wife who shared the same
> > devotional aspirations and allegiance to a particular church or order
> > ... the Austin Friars ... there is evidence of the wife's piety ... Cecily
> > Bardolf is shown as the donor of the Escorial Psalter.").
>
> I see no mention of Cecily's arms in the foreoing extract. Was
> there any such mention in a footnote or other part of the work you
> cite? The tinctures of the arms of Lord Bardolf are known; should we
> find something identifiable as Cecily's arms, impaled or otherwise,
> that would provide useful evidence, one way or the other.
The arms of Cecily Bardolf and those of her husband are evidently
found on the two embroideries cited by Gee. In fact, the historian
Gee specifically states that these two items were "identified by
heraldry." Heraldry usually means coats of arms. And, unless the
colors have faded badly, the tinctures of Cecily Bardolf's arms should
be present on both pieces. In any event, my guess is that the
tinctures and the arms of the Lords Bardolf would differ slightly from
the tinctures and the arms of the Bardolf family of Spixworth,
Norfolk. If so, you might want to have an archivist give you a
description of the arms on the two embroideries. If the arms on these
pieces match the known tinctures and arms of the Lords Bardolf, then
you would have good evidence that Cecily Bardolf was a daughter of a
contemporary Lord Bardolf. If the tinctures and arms vary from those
of the Lords Bardolf, then you would have good evidence that Cecily
was not the daughter of a Lord Bardolf.
Gee indicates that the two embroideries are presently held by the
following museums/archives:
1. Manuscript, Escorial Psalter, Escorial Library, Q.II.6
2. Embroidery, Life of the Virgin Apparels, Victoria and Albert Museum
By the way, I'm somewhat confused by Gee on this point, as in her main
text on page 67, she refers to two embroideries which involve Cecily
Bardolf. Yet on page 142, she refers to one manuscript (the Escorial
Psalter) and one embroidery. Be that as it may, you may be able to
find a description of the arms on the two embroideries in the
published sources which Gee has cited on page 142.
> If your assumptions as to uncited evidence by either Glover
> (possible) or Banks (less likely) are correct, your statement would be
> as well. Given there is no evidence cited, but only assumptions, we
> are back to square one on the long-standing presumption of a
> relationship between Cecily and the Lords Bardolf, no?
Actually no. We have the fine in which Cecily is called the "daughter
of Thomas Bardolf." This fine completely upends the alternative
pedigree you have set forth for Cecily Bardolf.
> > Beyond this, I have nothing further to offer in the way of evidence of
> > Cecily Bardolf's parentage, except to note that there are apparently
> > deeds relating to the Morley family which are discussed in the
> > Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries, 2nd series, vol. 1, pg.
> > 153, which I haven't yet seen. Cecily Bardolf is also mentioned in
> > 2nd ser., Vol. 1, pg. 153, and Thomas Bardolf, Lord Bardolf, of
> > Wormegay is mentioned in 2nd ser., Vol. 1, pg. 152-153. I assume
> > these deeds involve Cecily Bardolf, wife of Sir William de Morley. If
> > so, they may well provide contemporary evidence of her parentage.
I believe the citation above which I provided you should prove useful,
as it involves deeds of the Morley family and it refers to Cecily
Bardolf and Thomas, Lord Bardolf, of Wormegay. Do you have access to
this source?
> Cheers,
>
> John
Douglas Richardson
A pedigree of the Rye family which is ancestral to the Lords Morley
can be found in the following source:
The Norfolk Antiquarian Miscellany 3(1) (1885): 248-249
These pages may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5UMuAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA249&dq=%22Honour+of+Rye%22#PPA248-IA4,M1
Aline de Rye, daughter and co-heiress of Hubert de Rye, married John
le Marshal (le Marescall). Their lineal heir and descendant was
Hawise Marshal (died pre-1329), wife of Robert de Morley, Knt., 2nd
Lord Morley, Admiral of the Fleet north of Thames, Constable of the
Tower of London.
t...@clearwire.net
On Sep 26, 9:09 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> My comments are interspersed below. DR
>
> On Sep 26, 5:12 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Doug,
>
> > Thanks for your reply of yesterday.
>
> > Actually, that Cecily was of _a_ Bardolf family I think is
> > certain. The longstanding presumption, and statements to the effect,
> > that she was of 'the baronial Bardolf family' appear to be only that.
>
> I believe if you check out Complete Peerage's reference to Dugdale,
> you will find that Dugdale stated that Cacily Bardolf, wife of William
> de Morley, was the daughter of Thomas, Lord Bardolf, as does his
> source Glover. These gentlemen would have been fully aware that when
> they identified Cecily's father as "Thomas Lord Bardolf," that they
> were referring to Thomas Bardolf, 2nd Lord Bardolf, who died in 1328,
> not some other person or a distant kinsman.
This is a strawman - a parlor trick. No one is arguing that if Dugdale
or Glover referred to Thomas Lord Bardolf they meant any other than
the obvious. What is being questioned is whether they had any
documentary basis for this conclusion, or if it was simply
supposition. With no indication of the basis for their conclusion
this is nothing but an appeal to authority, which is hardly the basis
for certainty.
> Since we have good
> evidence that Cecily was in fact a Bardolf, and we also have a fine
> which refers to her as the "daughter of Thomas Bardolf," I think we
> can be certain that Cecily was in fact the daughter of Thomas, 2nd
> Lord Bardolf, just as Dugdale and Glover state.
You have no problem being certain. You were certain about the Vernon/
Camville situation, then switched on a dime to certainty of the
alternative solution. You were certain that John Botetourt was son of
Guy - we will see how that goes given Rosie's post showing John as a
brother of (a) Guy. However, others find certainty more elusive and
perhaps you should be more careful about speaking on their behalf. If
the fine says she is daughter of Thomas Bardolf, then it is reasonable
to conclude that she was daughter of someone named Thomas Bardolf.
That is all.
> I'm assuming for the
> present that Dugdale and Glover refer to Cecily's father as "Thomas
> Lord Bardolph," not just "Thomas Bardolph." I'm sure one or the other
> source can be easily checked by you as to the specific language.
Or by you, since you are the one doing the assuming.
taf
(note change of address)
Turenne
>That a male form ever existed is doubtful.
Cecil?
RL
John Briggs
> John Briggs wrote:
>
>> That a male form ever existed is doubtful.
>
> Cecil?
From the surname.
--
John Briggs
Douglas Richardson
saint.
See the following weblinks:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc5u.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=A103AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA35&dq=Cecilius+patron
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
letici...@nospam.gmail.com
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
>I guess John has never heard of Saint Cecilius of Granada, a patron
>saint.
>
>See the following weblinks:
>
>http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc5u.htm
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=A103AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA35&dq=Cecilius+patron
And of course before that Caecilius was a Roman name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Caecilius_Iucundus
The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names traces Cecil back to
the Roman plebeian gens and the 3rd-century saint, "and Cecil was not
uncommon in England in the Middle Ages, though much less common than
the corresponding f. name. The present widespread revival dates back
only to the end of the last century, and is a use of the family name
of the Marquis of Salisbury."
Tish
Praeterea censeo Hinem esse delendum
John Briggs
That "Cecil was not uncommon in England in the Middle Ages" is precisely
what I am disputing.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> I guess John has never heard of Saint Cecilius of Granada, a patron
> saint.
Probably not (especially as it is likely that he never existed) - but of
what relevance is he?
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
>
> The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names traces Cecil back to
> the Roman plebeian gens and the 3rd-century saint, "and Cecil was not
> uncommon in England in the Middle Ages, though much less common than
> the corresponding f. name. The present widespread revival dates back
> only to the end of the last century, and is a use of the family name
> of the Marquis of Salisbury."
The surname derive from the Welsh surname Seisyll, Seisyllt - the etymology
of which is disputed. (The "last century" would be the 19th, of course.)
--
John Briggs
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my last post, I find that Brault, Rolls of Arms
Edward I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 29 shows that Hugh Bardolf, 1st Lord
Bardolf (died 1304) bore the following arms:
Azure three cinquefoils or.
He also shows that Hugh's son and heir, Thomas Bardolf (died 1328),
during his father's lifetime bore these arms:
Azure crusilly and three cinquefoils or.
After Thomas succeeded Hugh, he omitted the crosslets. His arms then
would have been Azure three cinquefoils or.
Thus, the arms of the Lords Bardolf in this time period were Azure
three cinquefoils or.
Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 29 also provides
the arms of John Bardolf, of Spixworth, Norfolk, who John Ravilious
has advanced as the father of Cecily (Bardolf) Morley. They are:
Gules, three cinquefoils argent.
We see that while the charges [three cinquefoils] are the same, the
tinctures are different between the two branches of the Bardolf
family. Thus, it should be relatively easy to determine if Cecily
(Bardolf) Morley was the daughter of Thomas Bardolf, Lord Bardolf, or
John bardolf, of Spixworth, simply by viewing the arms on either of
the two embroideries connected to Cecily (Bardolf) Morley. If
Cecily's arms are blue and gold, then she was the daughter of a Lord
Bardolf. And, if her arms are red and silver, then she is a daughter
of a Bardolf of Spixworth.
The locations of the two embroideries are known. Both of them have
also been discussed in print. This is certainly an interesting use of
heraldry to prove a genealogical point.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
.
WJhonson
We see that while the charges [three cinquefoils] are the same, the
tinctures are different between the two branches of the Bardolf
family. Thus, it should be relatively easy to determine if Cecily
(Bardolf) Morley was the daughter of Thomas Bardolf, Lord Bardolf, or
John bardolf, of Spixworth, simply by viewing the arms on either of
the two embroideries connected to Cecily (Bardolf) Morley. If
Cecily's arms are blue and gold, then she was the daughter of a Lord
Bardolf. And, if her arms are red and silver, then she is a daughter
of a Bardolf of Spixworth. >>
-------------------------------------------------------
It would of course depend on knowing the reasoning behind the author's identification in the first place. The author states the identification, without showing what evidence supports that identification. When I first saw those statements, my red flag immediately went up, on the possibility of circular reasoning in that identification.
The best proof, and perhaps the basis of proofs should be, not some author's identification of what somebody used, but rather an existing seal on a document signed by that person. Statements within modern editions, not specifically about the subject, should always be viewed with skepticism and can never be the ultimate evidence of a contentious genealogical connection.
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
Dear Doug, Rosie, Todd, Will, et al.,
I have had the opportunity to read the article you mentioned by
L. F. Sandler on the Escorial Psalter, and have found it very
illuminating.
I am providing below a quote from the text which has direct
bearing on the Bardolf issue [1]. What I find particularly
interesting is that having read this article, Gee had unfortunately
leapt to the conclusion that the psalter's Bardolf patron (evidently
of the Wormegay family) was Cecily Bardolf. There is no support for
this in the text: in fact, the inference drawn by Sandler herself is,
' Indeed, the repeated juxtaposition of the arms of the Bardolfs
and the Busseys may itself refer to a marriage and this occasion may
have inspired the production of the Escorial Psalter. If so, the left-
hand or Bardolf shield would refer to the male partner; and the right-
hand Bussey shield to the female.' [2]
If this is correct, there may be an identifiable marriage of a
male Bardolf to a lady of the Bussey family. If so, this would likely
mean the marriage of a younger son, as (except for the 'foreign-born'
Agnes usually called Agnes de Grandison) the 13th and 14th century
wives of the Lords Bardolf are identified.
You can electronically 'validate' the foregoing via Google. If
you query "Escorial Psalter Bardolf", among other items you will bring
up a link to the Sandler article (via JSTOR). If you attempt another
potentially useful query, such as "Escorial Psalter Cecily Bardolf",
"Escorial Psalter Cicely Bardolf" or even "Escorial Psalter Bardolf
Morley" the JSTOR reference will not appear, for a very good reason:
Sandler makes no mention anywhere in the article to any specific
Bardolf other than Margaret, whom Sandler identifies (incorrectly by a
generation, I think) as a daughter of John, Lord Bardolf (p. 71, note
<24>).
Beyond the fact that Cecily Bardolf and the Lords Morley have
nothing to do with the Escorial Psalter, there is another interesting
Bardolf identification that can be made (or better, inferred). The
association of the Wells and Bardolf arms appear to point to Margaret
Bardolf, wife of Adam de Welles as being of the Wormegay family [see
p. 71, and esp. note <24>]. This tends to solidify my earlier
contention re: Cecily (Bardolf) de Morley, as her sister Margaret or
Margery (wife of Kerdeston) could then be identified with the
Spixworth family, and not readily with the Bardolfs of Wormegay.
If access to a very good copy (or excellent description) of the
apparel in the V&A in London can be obtained, that would hopefully
resolve the question as to Cecily (Bardolf) de Morley's parentage.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Lucy Freeman Sandler, An Early Fourteenth-Century English Psalter
in the Escorial (Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes,
1979), 42:65-80. The following is from pages 70-71:
' Five coats-of-arms fill the side and bottom margins of the
Beatus page of the psalter(Pl. 29a). Incorporated into the border,
they are part of the original design and appear to have been painted
by the original artist in colours which have not been retouched
although they have oxidized so badly that they are difficult to
blazon. Across the bottom of the page are azure three cinquefoils or
- Bardolf; and barry of ten argent and sable - most probably Bussey.
Along the right-hand margin are three more shields, from top to
bottom, azure semy fleurs de lis a lion rampant guardant argent -
Holland; or a lion crowned rampant sable - Wells; as well as argent
floretty a lion crowned rampant sable - probably Buckminster. The
Bardolf and Bussey arms are repeated on all the bordered pages marking
the liturgical divisions of the psalter, but by a later hand; the
Bardolf arms alone recur on the garment of a kneeling woman in the
Crucifixion at the end of the Office of the Cross (Pl. 29c).
The families identified with these coats-of-arms all held lands
in Lincolnshire during the fourteenth century. The Bardolfs and the
Busseys had adjoining manors in Kesteven close to the Nottinghamshire
border. Other Bussey holdings in Kesteven were near those of the
Buckminster family. In Holland - the eastern part of the county - the
Holland and the Wells holdings were adjacent, and indeed passed in
part from one family to the other. Moreover, the Bardolf and the
Wells were related by marriage <24>. Indeed, the repeated
juxtaposition of the arms of the Bardolfs and the Busseys may itself
refer to a marriage and this occasion may have inspired the production
of the Escorial Psalter. If so, the left-hand or Bardolf shield would
refer to the male partner; and the right-hand Bussey shield to the
female.
The lady, now presumably wearing her Bardolf husband's arms, is
shown in the miniature at the end of the Office of the Cross (Pl.
29c). She kneels in prayer to the left of the crucified Christ. On
the right is a kneeling cleric, an Austin Friar, wearing the black
habit and white tunic of the order. The Bardolfs are not recorded as
patrons or any Austin Friars house, nor are the other families
represented by the coats-of-arms in the book, at least not up to the
middle of the fourteenth century. It seems likely therefore that the
Bardolf woman shown in the picture was the owner of the Escorial
Psalter; that the Austin Friar shown with her was her confessor or
chaplain; and that as her spiritual adviser he was responsible for the
introduction into her prayer book of the liturgical features of the
Austin Friars. '
[2] Ibid., p. 71
> http://books.google.com/books?id=TWXq344tmPoC&pg=PA67&dq=Gee+Bardolf+...
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Turenne
>The present widespread revival dates back only to the end of the last century, and is a use of the family name
>of the Marquis of Salisbury."
Strangely enough the Salisbury family name is pronounced 'Sissil'.
Richard
John Briggs
That is because of its alleged derivation from the Welsh Seisyll, Seisyllt.
But it could also be from the diminutives of Cecilia: Cesse, Cissot, Sissot,
Syssot, Cesselot, Cisley or Cisselly.
--
John Briggs
mmic...@christies.com
Dear John et al
I stumbled on your conversation and fear I may have caused the problem
through my re-interpretation of the armorials in my article in Eglish
Manuscripts Sudies, vol 2, 1990 pp.33-108 at note 44. I quote it here
to save everyone trouble - but I may of coure be wrong in my
interpretation:
'Athough it has been suggested that the Escorial Psalter may have been
made for a marriage between the Bussey family and the Bardolfs
(Sandler, 'An early fourteenth-century English Psalter', pp. 65-8), a
very good case can be made for associating the shields, which are
paired at the bottom of the page at each Psalter division, with the
patronage of Cecily Bardolf and Robert de Morley of the Austin Friars
of Norwich. Cecily is depicted kneeling before the Cross with a friar
(fol. 14). She wears a surcoat of her arms (Azure three cinquefoils
or) and he a black habit. The unidentified shield which is paired with
hers at the Psalter divisions (a Barry of ten argent and sable), may,
therefore, refer to the Austin Friars' House which was the subject of
her patronage (almost certainly Norwich). The same pairing of shields
occurs on a fragment of Opus Anglicanum (Victoria and Albert Museum
8218-1863; see Opus Anglicanum, English Medieval Embroidery,
exhibition held at the Victoria and Albert Museum (London, 1963), no.
73; (the black thread has largely been worn away to give the false
impression of bars of red). The will of Robert de Morley states that
such gifts were given to the Austin Friars of Norwich and he and
Cecily were both buried there (see The Complete Peerage, vol. 9
(London, 1945), p. 215 n. m). The Escorial Psalter itself has a
colophon in the original hand of the text which suggests it was made
for an Austin Friars' house. Although the exact place has been erased,
this may have been Norwich. The arms which appear in the margins of
the 'Beatus' page may refer to him rather than the Barry of ten.
Robert was in dispute over his arms with Lord Lovell (see A. Wagner,
Heralds and Heraldy in the Middle Ages (Oxford, 1956), pp. 20-2). Both
claimed the right to bear: 'dargent ove un leon rampant de sable
corone et enarme dore'. This may account for the similarity of the
shields displayed on the 'Beatus' page, but their inexact colouring.
For a fuller discussion, see Michael, Thesis, p. 881 n. 326, and
appendix 6c, nos 11-15 for the shields.'
I would be delighted if we could pin down the barry of ten.
M.A.Michael
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
The article by Sandler you checked is a bit of a disappointment.
Instead of verifying that the Escorial psalter was owned by Cecily
(Bardolf) Morley as implied by the historian Gee, Sandler's comments
indicate that the psalter had nothing to do with Cecily (Bardolf)
Morley at all. Ugh!!
Reading Gee's comments again, I understand now what she is actually
saying. On page 67, she refers to an embroidery entitled "Life of the
Virgin Apparels" in the Victoria and Albert Museum. Gee states that
the embroidery "has been identified from the heraldry as having
belonged to William, Lord Morley, and his wife, Cecily Bardolf." So
far, so good. She then says that "the same arms appear in the
Escorial Psalter."
I initially took this to mean that the Bardolf AND Morley arms were
both found on the embroidery and in the psalter. Gee certainly
associates both pieces with Cecily (Bardolf) Morley on page 142.
However, Gee is evidently referring only to the Bardolf arms being
found with both pieces. Regardless, if she is correct, then this
means that Cecily (Bardolf) Morley would have to have been a daughter
of Lord Bardolf, as Sandler describes the arms on the Escorial psalter
as being "Azure three cinquefoils or." Brault indicates that these
arms belonged to the Lords Bardolf, but not to the Bardolf family of
Spixworth, Norfolk.
Gee indicates that the Life of the Virgin Apparels embroidery
associated with Cecily (Bardolf) Morley has been discussed in a Ph.D.
dissertation, as well as in Michael, 1990, pg. 61, 104 note 44, and in
Williamson, 1986, pp. 204-205. Thus the arms found on the embroidery
should be described somewhere in print.
I believe the first reference to Michael, 1900, is to an article by
M.A. Michael entitled "Destruction, Reconstruction, and Invention"
which was published in the book, English Manuscript Studies 1100-1700,
edited by Peter Beal & Jeremy Griffiths, volume 2 (1990), pp. 32-107,
which source I haven't seen. The second reference to Williamson,
1986, appears to be to Paul Williamson, The Medieval Treasury: The Art
of the Middle Ages in the Victoria and Albert Museum, 1986. I also
haven't seen this source. Neither work appears to be available at our
local university library, nor is either work available in Google Book
Search as best I can tell.
As for as Sandler's comments about the various arms found with the
Escorial Psalter, she is probably correct in assuming that the arms
she describes for the Bardolf family are for that family. However,
slips off the beam at that point. She says the next arms, barry of
ten argent and sable, are "most probably Bussey." However, these arms
belong to more than one family. She identifies the next set of arms,
azure semy fleurs de lis a lion rampant guardant argent, as being for
Holland. She is correct about the arms, but the family name was
Holand, not Holland. The third set of arms, or a lion crowned rampant
sable, could be for various families. But I seriously doubt it is for
Welles, as it is lacking the double forked tail and the Welles lion is
not crowned. The Welles arms are correctly described as: "Or, a lion
rampant double queued sable, langued, etc., gules." So your idea that
the Escorial Psalter provides support for the Bardolf identification
of Margaret, wife of Adam de Welle(s), comes crashing to the ground.
As far as I know, there is NO evidence whatsoever to indicate the
parentage or family of Lady Welles, in spite of Complete Peerage's
comments. I'm not familiar with the the last set of arms, argent
floretty a lion crowned rampant sable, which Sandler thinks is
Buckminster.
So it would appear that some more investigation work needs to be done
on the remaining embroidery. If the arms on the embroidery are found
to be those of Morley and those of the Lords Bardolf, then it would
seem certain that Cecily Bardolf, wife of William de Morley, was a
daughter of Lord Bardolf.
Thank you again for checking the Sandler article.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
I do want to take the historian Loveday Lewes Gee partly off the hook
for associating the Escorial psalter with Cecily Bardolf, wife of Sir
William de Morley. Before Gee's book was published, I find that the
historian, Michael Camille, in his book, Mirror in Parchment: The
Luttrell Psalter and the Making of Medieval England (1998), page 326,
made a similar identification as follows:
"The decorator ... also illuminated a psalter for another Lincolnshire
client, Cecily Bardolf, who presented it to the Austin friars' house
at Norwich (Escorial Library, MS Q.II.6."
On Page 392, Camille cites as his sources the following two works:
Sandler "An Early Fourteenth-Century English Psalter in the Escorial,"
Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes 48 (1979): 65-80;
Sandler, Gothic Manuscripts 1285-1385, A Survey of Manuscripts
Illuminated in the British Isles II: Catalogue, no. 80.
I have not seen the latter source, but John Ravilious' comments
regarding the former source do not suggest that Sandler associated the
psalter with Cecily Bardolf at all, only with the Bardolf family.
On page 392, after citing his sources, Camille inserts the word
"although" and the rest of his comments are found on page 393 which
I'm unable to see on Google Book Search. Hopefully Camille modified
his statement about Cecily Bardolf and the Escorial psalter on page
393.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for your post yesterday. In fact, the muddying of
the waters was due to the fragmented text in the printed Feet of
Fines. I am sending a copy of my next post to you, in which solid
evidence is presented that Cecily Bardolf was in fact a daughter of
Thomas, Lord Bardolf (of Wormegay) and not of the cadet family I had
theorized.
This does have some import as regards the Escorial Psalter and
the arms portrayed. There is some discussion by W. S. Walford (1860)
concerning the Morley arms on two deeds (1335 and 1363) which may well
bear on interpreting the Psalter and the accuracy of the arms as
shown. I will send this on either later today or tomorrow, as soon as
time allows.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
Dear Doug, Rosie, Todd, Will, John, et al.,
In the course of pursuing the facts of Cecily Bardolf's
ancestry, I had planned to obtain what might be available
concerning the textiles at the V&A. I have meanwhile found
the necessary documentation (short of having a charter in
hand) to substantiate that Cecily Bardolf was the daughter
of Thomas Bardolf, Lord Bardolf (d. 1328).
The following is taken from observations made by W. S.
Walford, Esq., F.S.A. concerning a group of 14th century
deeds provided to the Society of Antiquaries of London by
J. J. Howard, Esq., F.S.A. in May 1860:
" The first deed, which is in French, and dated
at Wormegay on Monday the Feast of the Conception
of our Lady, 20 Edw. II. (8 Dec. 1326), in an
agreement between Monsire Thomas Bardolf, Lord of
Wormegay, and Monsire Robert de Morlee, Marshal
of Ireland, for the marriage of William de Morlee,
son of the latter, with Cecilia, daughter of the
former. Robert de Morlee covenanted to enfeoff
his intended daughter-in-law of lands to the
value of 100l. (i.e. per annum, it is presumed);
and Thomas Bardolf undertook to find William
and Cecilia with board and clothing at his own
hostel until William should be twenty years of
age, if Thomas Bardolf should so long live.
Immediately after his decease William and
Cecilia were to have the 100l. in land, though
Robert de Morlee might be still living. In
some event not clearly stated (probably owing
to the accidental omission of a few words),
and also after the death of her intended
husband, Cecilia was to have the 100l. in
land during her life for her maintenance. In
case William should be made a knight, or wish
to enter the profession of arms (ou voille
aler entre les gentz au fait darmes) before
he was twenty years of age, Thomas Bardolf
was not to be bound to furnish him with
anything out of his own hostel. For such
marriage and feoffment Thomas Bardolf agreed
to pay Robert Morlee 666l. 13s. 4d., in five
years, by equal portions; and if Cecilia
happened to die before the whole was paid,
he was not to pay any more after her death.
A formal instrument was to be prepared,
under the advice of the counsel of both
parties.
The two seals are unfortunately missing:
they were appended each by a slip cut
partially from the bottom of the
parchment." [1]
This serves I think to firmly establish Cecily's
parentage, at least with regard to her father (the
Grandison controversy will I think continue),and also
serves to place Margaret (Bardolf) Kerdeston
in the correct (Wormegay) family.
Should anyone wish to have the entirety of the
French text of the agreement (a portion of which
is given below), I will be happy to provide it.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of
London (Second Series, November 17, 1859
to June 20, 1861) [London: printed by J. B.
Nichols for The Society of Antiquaries],
I:152-3. Part of the text, en Francais,
provided by Mr. Walford in the same
article (p. 160) follows:
" The following is a copy, with the
contractions extended, of the first of the
three deeds, described in the foreoing
observations: -
" Cestez endentures tesmoignent qe le lundy
en la feste de la concepcion notre Dame lan du
regne le Roy Edward fuiz au Roy Edward vyntisme,
covynt entre Monsire Thomas Bardolfe Seignour
de Wyrmegeye dune part et Monsire Robert de
Morlee Mareschal Dirlaunde dautre part, qe
ledit Monsire Robert mariraz son fuiz William
a Cecilie la fillie ledit Monsire Thomas; et
ledit Monsire Robert feofferaz ou ferraz
feoffer ladite Cecilie de centes livree de
terre en convenables lieux et a resonable
extente:...
Escriptes a Wyrmegeye le jour et lan
avauntditz."
* John P. Ravilious
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
In your post, you left it unclear if just the Bardolf arms are found
on the embroidery in the Victoria and Albert Museum, or both Bardolf
AND Morley. Can you please be more explicit about that point? Or,
perhaps I should ask a different question: Exactly what arms are
displayed on the embroidery?
Regarding the parentage of Cecily Bardolf, wife of Sir William de
Morley, 3rd Lord Morley, Marshal of Ireland, the evidence is excellent
that she is the daughter of Thomas Bardolf, Knt., 2nd Lord Bardolf,
whose principal seat was at Wormegay, Norfolk.
As for the identification of the barry arms, I suspect that when
further research is done that you might find that these are the arms
of Cecily's second husband, or possibly of her mother or even a son-in-
law. Cecily Bardolf was a widow for the last six years of her life.
She could easily have contracted a second marriage, even though she
left a will in which she called herself Cecily Lady Morley. What name
a woman used in her will in the medieval period does not necessarily
reflect the name, number, or order of her marriages.
I have one other thought. If the Morley arms are not associated with
either the embroidery or the psalter, perhaps I should ask you if
these items might have been instead created for Cecily Bardolf's
mother, Agnes. Agnes was a Bardolf widow between 1328 and 1357. Her
lifetime overlapped that of her daughter, Cecily. Agnes could easily
have remarried to a man who had the barry arms. Or, the barry arms
could be her own arms. Agnes's family name has never been proven.
All we know for certain is that Agnes was a native of Germany.
As far as it goes, I usually associate barry with the baronial Grey
family. However, other families bore these arms. Probably the best
place to check for the barry arms in question is Gerald Brault's book,
Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1304). Perhaps you have already checked
Brault.
As I stated yesterday, I strongly doubt the arms of the Welles family
occur with Escorial Psalter, as alleged by Lucy Sandler. Sandler
described this set of arms as follows: Or a lion crowned rampant
sable. Since we are dealing with a crowned lion rampant, I can't help
but wonder if these are not the Morley arms which are supposed to be:
Argent a lion rampant sable crowned or [Reference: Moor, Knights of
Edward I, volume 3, pg. :202].
The color of the field is different, bit otherwise everything else is
the same. In contrast, the lion on the standard Welles coat of arms
is not crowned. The Welles lion also has a distinctive double forked
tail.
Once again, thank you for sharing your thoughts with the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
t...@clearwire.net
On Oct 2, 5:46 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
> In the course of pursuing the facts of Cecily Bardolf's
> ancestry, I had planned to obtain what might be available
> concerning the textiles at the V&A. I have meanwhile found
> the necessary documentation (short of having a charter in
> hand) to substantiate that Cecily Bardolf was the daughter
> of Thomas Bardolf, Lord Bardolf (d. 1328).
Given this reevaluation, does it change your thoughts on the Yelverton
marriage placement?
taf
WJhonson
William at that time would have been just shy of 25 years old while Cecilia would have been *at least* 18 and at most 28.
It seems a bit odd to me.
Will Johnson
WJhonson
Agnes's family name has never been proven.
All we know for certain is that Agnes was a native of Germany. >>
-----------------
What source states that she was a native of Germany?
The parents she had had were Swiss and English. If it were well-known that she had actually come from Germany it doesn't seem as likely that anyone would have connected her to Switzerland.
Will
John P. Ravilious
Obviously, the onomastics turn out to be neutral at this point.
With both the Wormegay and Spixworth families, the Bardolfs used the
same names repeatedly (esp. Thomas). The name Cecily is found earlier
in the Spixworth line (introduced by marriage), but is now found sans
namesake in the Wormegay line with Cecily, dau. of Sir Thomas and wife
of William de Morley.
At the same time, given the social positions of Bardolf
(Wormegay) and de Morley on one hand, and Bardolf (Spixworth) and de
Yelverton on the other, I think the conjectured place of Yelverton's
wife among the Spixworth family as most likely. Geography would tend
to support this as well: Spixworth is less than 4 km. west of
Rackheath. I think near neighbors of comparative social rank are more
likely to have arranged the marriage of Robert de Yelverton and Cecily
Bardolf.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
Actually, the evidence does not indicate that they were married
_on_ 6 March 1344/45. We know they were married _before_ 7 Jan
1344/5.
Record of a settlement dated 18 Edw III (between 7 Jan 1343/4 and
7 Jan 1344/5):
National Archives, C 143/269/1
' William de Morle to settle his manor of Aldeby on himself,
Cecily his wife,
and his heirs, retaining the manor of Foulsham. Norfolk. '
The implication (probable not definite) of this settlement is
that there was already issue of the marriage; since at the latter end
of this range, William de Morley was 25 years old, it would seem
unlikely that the marriage contracted in 1326 had not been finalized,
and consummated, before 18 Edw III.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
The term Almain is derived from French (Allemagne), and might
strictly be held to mean "Germany", but I wouldn't place too fine a
point on its use in a 14th century document. Given there was one
German 'reich' at the time, this most likely was understood to apply
to the then-current extent of the Holy Roman Empire - including
Alsace, the Netherlands, northern Italy, etc. See CP I:418, which I
think also puts forward this same understanding.
Thus, a 'Swiss' origin for Agnes would still be possible, and
accurate for our purposes. All we need then is some
documentation.......
Cheers,
John
On Oct 2, 4:20 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Douglas Richardson
Below is a revised an expanded account of Sir William de Morley, Knt.,
3rd Lord Morley, Marshal of Ireland, and his wife, Cecily Bardolf.
The account below reaffirms Cecily Bardolf's placement as the daughter
of Sir Thomas Bardolf, Knt., 2nd Lord Bardolf. Sir William de Morley
is a lineal descendant of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury, the
bastard son of King Henry II of England, by his mistress, Ida de
Tony. Sir William de Morley's wife, Cecily Bardolf, is twice a
lineal descendant of Robert Fitz Roy, the bastard son of King Henry I
of England.
For interest's sake, the following a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Sir William de Morley and his wife,
Cecily Bardolf.
Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,
William Farrar, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Anne, Elizabeth, & John
Mansfield, William Skepper.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
Account of Sir William de Morley, 3rd Lord Morley, and his wife,
Cecily Bardolf
I. WILLIAM DE MORLEY, Knt., 3rd Lord Morley, Marshal of Ireland, son
and heir by his father's 1st marriage, born 24 June 1319. He married
by agreement dated 8 Dec. 1326 CECILY BARDOLF, daughter of Thomas
Bardolf, Knt., 2nd Lord Bardolf, of Wormegay, Norfolk, by Agnes, said
to be daughter of William de Grandison (or Graunson), Knt., 1st Lord
Grandison. They had two sons, John and Thomas, Knt., K.G. [4th Lord
Morley]. In 1327-1328 William's father, Robert de Morley, Knt.,
settled the reversion of the manor of Roydon, Norfolk on Cecily
Bardolf, in accordance with the previous agreement he reached in 1326
with Cecily's father. In 1345 William settled the manor of Aldeby,
Norfolk on himself, his wife Cecily, and his heirs. In 1353 he owed
£100 to William de Middleton. He served in Gascony in 1354, and took
part in the expedition of Prince Edward to Carcassonne and Narbonne in
1355. He was summoned to Parliament from 4 Dec. 1364 to 16 Feb.
1378/9. In 1370 he was prepared to lead 20 men-at-arms overseas in
the retinue of the King. SIR WILLIAM DE MORLEY, 3rd Lord Morley,
Marshal of Ireland, died at Hallingbury, Essex 30 April 1379. He left
a will dated 26 April 1379, proved 6 Feb. 1379/80. His widow, Cecily,
died 23 (or 25) Nov. 1386. She left a will dated 20 Sept. 1386,
proved 7 Feb. 1386/7. He and his wife, Cecily, were buried in the
Austin Friars church at Norwich, Norfolk.
References:
Blomefield, Hist. of Norfolk 1 (1739): 26, 30. Morant, Hist. &
Antiqs. of Essex 1 (1768): 440-441; 2 (1768): 511-512. Banks, The
Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 2 (1808): 356-358 (correctly
identifies wife Cecily as "daughter of Thomas lord Bardolph").
Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 2 (1821): 461-467 (Lanvallei
pedigree). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 104-105 (will of
William Lord Morley dated 15 [sic] April 1379-includes bequest to "Sir
Thomas Morley, Knt. my son and heir... the plate belonging to Cecily, my
wife, marked with the arms of Bardolph"), 121 (will of Cecily Lady
Morley dated includes bequest to Dame Margaret Kerdeston my sister").
Burke Dict. of the Peerages... Extinct, Dormant, and in Abeyance (1831):
370. The Gentleman's Mag. 103(2) (1833): 503. Coll. Top. & Gen. 7
(1841): 208-210. Procs. Soc. Antiq. 2nd Ser. 1 (1860): 152-153.
Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum 3 (1894): 280 (seal of
William de Morley, Marshal of Ireland dated 1362-A shield of arms,
couché: a lion rampant, crowned [MORLEY]. Crest on a helmet, out of a
ducal coronet a bear's head muzzled. Within an elegantly carved
gothic panel, ornamented along the inner edge with small
quatrefoils.). C.P.R. 1343-1345 (1902): 432. C.P. 9 (1936): 214-215
(sub Morley). Watkin, Inventory of Church Goods temp. Edward III
(Norfolk Rec. Soc. 19(2)) (1948): 205. Paget, Baronage of England
(1957) 383: 1. Sandler, "An Early Fourteenth-Century English Psalter
in the Escorial," Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes 48
(1979): 65-80. Sandler, Gothic Manuscripts 1285-1385, A Survey of
Manuscripts Illuminated in the British Isles II: Catalogue (1986), no.
80. Williamson, The Medieval Treasury (1986): 204-205 (not seen).
M.A. Michael "Destruction, Reconstruction, and Invention" in Beal &
Griffiths English Manuscript Studies 1100-1700 2 (1990): 61, 104 (not
seen); 4 (2000): 71. Ward Women of the English Nobility and Gentry
1066-1500 (1995): 107, 112-113. Camille, Mirror in Parchment: The
Luttrell Psalter and the Making of Medieval England (1998): 141, 326,
392-393. Gee, Women, Art and Patronage from Henry III to Edward III:
1216-1377 (2002): 66-67 ("Another embroidery, the life of the Virgin
apparels in the Victoria and Albert Museum, has been identified from
the heraldry as having belonged to William, Lord Morley, and his wife,
Cicely Bardolf. The same arms appear in the Escorial Psalter, which
has an Austin Friars calendar, where the female owner is shown on fol.
14v with her Austin Friar confessor. These two embroideries each
represent the patronage, identified by heraldry, of a husband and wife
who shared the same devotional aspirations and allegiance to a
particular church or order ... the Austin Friars ... there is evidence of
the wife's piety ... Cecily Bardolf is shown as the donor of the
Escorial Psalter."), 142. PRO Document, C 241/143/78 (debt of William
de Morley, Knt. to William de Middleton dated 1353) (abstract of
document available online at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Renia
> Dear Newsgroup ~
Should that not be newsgroups?
John Briggs
Does it depend on whether you are cross-posting or simultaneous posting?
:-)
--
John Briggs
Douglas Richardson
Further evidence which conclusively establishes the parentage of
Cecily Bardolf (died 1386), wife of Sir William de Morley, 3rd Lord
Morley, Marshal of Ireland, can be found in the book, A Calendar of
the Cartularies of John Pyel and Adam Fraunceys, edited by S.J.
O'Connor (Camden 5th Ser. 2), published in 1993. On page 139, there
is a certain memorandum which was recorded with respect to the sale of
various tenements and a watermill in Wellingborough, Northamptonshire
in1352 by Sir Robert de Morley, Marshal of Ireland, to Adam Fraunceys
and John Pyel, citizens and merchants of London. This document
specifically states that the wife of Sir Robert de Morley's son and
heir, Sir William de Morley, was "Cecily, the daughter of Sir Thomas
Bardolf."
Page 139:
"And memorandum that the said tenements in Wellingborough with all
appurtenances descended to Sir William de Morlee as his right
inheritance, and after his death they descended to Sir Robert de
Morlee, knight, son and heir of Sir William. And when Robert's own
son and heir William married Cecily, the daughter of Sir Thomas
Bardolf, he promised to grant to William his son and Cecily for their
sustenance, for the term of the life of Cecily, land totalling £100
per annum, to revert after her death to Robert and his heirs, and by
way of surety Sir Robert made a bond to Sir Thomas Bardolf, father of
Cecily, of £2,000. And it was agreed between them that the tenements
in Wellingborough should be a parcel of the £100 per annum. But Sir
Robert had not at any time enfeoffed Sir William or Cecily his wife in
anything before the date of the above charter and release, nor had Sir
Robert ever been out of possession of the said tenements in
Wellingborough before he enfeoffed Adam Fraunceys and John Pyel.
[French]"
WJhonson
for the term of the life of Cecily, land totalling £100
per annum, to revert after her death to Robert and his heirs, and by
way of surety Sir Robert made a bond to Sir Thomas Bardolf, father of
Cecily, of £2,000. >>
Actually this tells us something more.
It tells us that the marriage agreement was made within the lifetime of Thomas Bardolf. Until viewing this document I only had that they were married "bef 7 Jan 1344/5", obviously they were married, or agreed-to-be-married by 15 Dec 1328 when Thomas died.
Will Johnson
WJhonson
John P. Ravilious
The marriage contract was dated at Wormegay on 8 Dec 1326. See
my post to this thread on 2 Oct 2007, which include in part,
' The following is taken from observations made by W. S.
Walford, Esq., F.S.A. concerning a group of 14th century
deeds provided to the Society of Antiquaries of London by
J. J. Howard, Esq., F.S.A. in May 1860:
" The first deed, which is in French, and dated
at Wormegay on Monday the Feast of the Conception
of our Lady, 20 Edw. II. (8 Dec. 1326), in an
agreement between Monsire Thomas Bardolf, Lord of
Wormegay, and Monsire Robert de Morlee, Marshal
of Ireland, for the marriage of William de Morlee,
son of the latter, with Cecilia, daughter of the
former. Robert de Morlee covenanted to enfeoff
his intended daughter-in-law of lands to the
value of 100l. (i.e. per annum, it is presumed);
and Thomas Bardolf undertook to find William
and Cecilia with board and clothing at his own
hostel...... '
Cheers,
John
On Oct 15, 11:07 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
John P. Ravilious
The marriage contract was dated at Wormegay on 8 Dec 1326. See
my post to this thread on 2 Oct 2007, which included in part,
' The following is taken from observations made by W. S.
Walford, Esq., F.S.A. concerning a group of 14th century
deeds provided to the Society of Antiquaries of London by
J. J. Howard, Esq., F.S.A. in May 1860:
" The first deed, which is in French, and dated
at Wormegay on Monday the Feast of the Conception
of our Lady, 20 Edw. II. (8 Dec. 1326), in an
agreement between Monsire Thomas Bardolf, Lord of
Wormegay, and Monsire Robert de Morlee, Marshal
of Ireland, for the marriage of William de Morlee,
son of the latter, with Cecilia, daughter of the
former. Robert de Morlee covenanted to enfeoff
his intended daughter-in-law of lands to the
value of 100l. (i.e. per annum, it is presumed);
and Thomas Bardolf undertook to find William
and Cecilia with board and clothing at his own
hostel...... '
Cheers,
John
On Oct 15, 11:07 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote: