C.P. Addition: Marriage Settlement of Richard Poynings and Eleanor Berkeley
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 664-665 (sub Poynings) includes an account
of the life of Sir Richard Poynings (died 1429), son and heir apparent
of Robert de Poynings, 4th Lord Poynings. It shows that Sir Richard
Poynings married (2nd) Eleanor Berkeley, widow of Sir John de Arundel,
who Complete Peerage styles "de jure Lord Mautravers." No date is
given for the marriage. A recent search of the helpful online A2A
Catalogue (www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp) has turned up an abstract
of the marriage settlement of Sir Richard Poynings and Eleanor
Berkeley dated 8 April 1423, followed by a deed dated 16 June 1423, by
which date this marriage had evidently occured. The marriage
settlement styles Eleanor's former husband, John Arundel, as "Lord of
Arundel and Mautravers." This agrees with information I posted in an
earlier message which shows that in 1417, shortly before his death,
John Arundel was known as "lord of Arundell and Mautravers."
Besides providing an approximate marriage date for Richard Poynings
and Eleanor Berkeley, these documents prove that John Arundel was
never Earl of Arundel, even though his widow, Eleanor, was known later
in life as "Countess of Arundel." I've copied below two earlier posts
which deal with this matter.
For interest's sake, the following list of colonial immigrants who
descend from Sir Richard Poynings and his wife, Eleanor Berkeley, is
provided:
1. William Bladen 5. Anne Mauleverer
2. St. Leger Codd 6. George Reade
3. Edward Digges 7. Katherine Saint Leger
4. Warham Horsmonden 8. Richard Saltonstall
Also, the following colonial immigrant descends from Eleanor
Berkeley's 1st marriage to Sir John Arundel, lord of Arundel and
Mautravers:
1. Mary Johanna Somerset
Information on the individual descents can be found in my book,
Plantagenet Ancestry. Those interested in ordering a copy of the book
may contact me at my e-mail address below.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: douglasr...@royalancestry.net
Website: www.royalancestry.net
**************************
Source: A2A Catalogue
Suffolk Record Office, Bury St Edmunds Branch: Hengrave [449/2 -
449/9]
Reference: 449/2/648
Dorset, etc: Title Deed
Creation dates: 8 April 1423
Scope and Content
(i) John Berkeley, kt., and Thomas Stawell, kt.
To (ii) Robert, Lord de Ponyngges.
Chirograph
Marriage settlement between Richard, son and heir of (ii), and Eleanor
formerly wife of John, Lord of Arundel and Mautravers.
Manors of Okeford Fitzpaine and Durweston, Dorset; Slaugham and
Pengeden, Sussex; reversion of the manors of Poynings, Perchyng parva,
Hangleton, Preston Poynings [sic], Ashcombe 'Chyvtyng' and Waldron,
Sussex; Horsmonden, Levelond, Standon and Combesdane, Totyngton and
Eccles, Rokesle and North Cray, Kent; Staple and Cheddon, Somerset,
after the death of (ii) and Eleanor his wife; also of the following
manors, held of the king, in chief, by (ii); Terlyngham, Newenden?
['Newenton'], Eastwell and Westwood, Kent, and Speckington, Cary,
Hyde, Charlton, Rodway, Stogursey, Wynyates Dyke and the Hundred of
Cannington, Somerset.
Recites: Bond, dated as the present indenture in £5,000 from (ii) to
(i) payable on the feast of the nativity of St. John the Baptist, for
making an estate in the said manors by (ii) to Richard and Eleanor,
within half a year after their marriage.
[Eleanor, daughter of Sir John Berkeley of Beverstone and widow of
John, Earlof Arundel, married Sir Richard Poynings as her second
husbands. She married thirdly Walter, Lord Hungerford. Complete
Peerage]. See also 2/664 [evidently 2/663 is intended - DR].
Reference: 449/2/663
Okeford Fitzpaine: Title Deed
Creation dates: 16 June 1423
Physical characteristics: Seals: Eight seal tags (seals damaged or
missing), one slit for seal tag.
Scope and Content
(i) William Bouvile, kt., John Martyn, William Pawelot, William Gosse,
William Hastyng, Hugh Cary, John Bradele, clerk and John Bolne
To (ii) Roger Covert, John Seynesbury and William Thyrsk
Letter of attorney for delivery of seisin of the manor of Okeford
Fitzpaine, with the advowson of the church, to Richard Ponyngges, kt.,
(eldest son of Robert, Lord Poynings) and Eleanor his wife, (daughter
of John Berkeley, kt,) Lady Arundel and Mautravers.
To hold to the said Richard and Eleanor and their heirs, with
remainder to Robert, Lord Poynings, and his heirs, as is contained in
a certain indenture.
Endorsed: de manerio de Ocfurth fyzpayn. [15th cent.]
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Copy of earlier post:
From: royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: 9th Earl of Arundel
Date: 29 Jun 2004 10:04:30 -0700
Dear Newsgroup ~
With regard to my earlier posts regarding whether or not Sir John
Arundel (died 1421) was ever Earl of Arundel, I've found an abstract
of a Chancery Proceeding in the National Archives Catalogue (formerly
PROCAT) at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp.
The plaintiff in this proceeding appears to be William Arundel, 2nd
son of Sir John Arundel (died 1421). As is indicated in the abstract
below, William specifically refers to his father as "sometime lord of
Arundell and Mautravers," not as Earl of Arundel. If correct, this
would seem to be rather conclusive evidence that William's father was
never Earl of Arundel. John, "late Earl of Arundel," named in the
proceeding would have been William's older brother.
Nevertheless, I'm puzzled as to why William's widowed mother, Eleanor,
adopted the style "Countess of Arundel" if her husband was never earl.
Further details regarding this matter can be found in my earlier post
dated May 2, 2004, which post I've copied further below.
C 1/9/467
William of Arundell, esq., son of John, sometime lord of Arundell and
Mautravers. v. Maurice Berkeley, knt., William Sydeney, and other
feoffees of John, late earl of Arundel.: Manors of Hyneford,
Spertegrove, Stoke Trister (Tristre), Cucklington (Cokelyngton),
Bayford and Leigh (Lyghe), and the office of keeper of the forest of
Selwood (Selewode). Date: 1386-1486.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Copy of earlier post:
From: royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: 9th Earl of Arundel
Date: 28 Dec 2003 02:33:14 -0800
Dear Newsgroup ~
Speaking of complicated earldoms, Complete Peerage is a little vague
about whether or not John Arundel (died 1421) was summoned to
Parliament as Earl of Arundel 3 September 1416 [see Complete Peerage,
1 (1910): 247]. John had inherited the Castle and Honour of Arundel
in 1415, on the death of his cousin, Thomas Arundel, Earl of Arundel
and Surrey.
The Register of Robert Hallum, Bishop of Salisbury 1407–17 (Canterbury
& York Soc. 72) (1982) indicates John Arundel was known as follows in
his lifetime (dates given):
pp. 2, 37, 67, 82 (styled variously "John Arundell, lord of
Mautravers" [1408, 1414], "John d'Arundell, knight, lord of
Mautravers" [1408]; "John Arundell, lord of Arundell and Mautravers
[1417]).
The last entry follows the Parliamentary summons of 1416. We find
that John Arundel was styled "lord of Arundell and Mautravers" in
1417, suggesting that he was summoned to Parliament in 1416 not as
Earl of Arundel, but rather as Lord Arundel.
It seems possible, though, that sometime between 1417 and his death in
1421, John was acknowledged as Earl of Arundel, as I find that his
widow, Eleanor, is later styled "countess of Arundel and lady of
Mautravers [Reference: Calendar of Fine Rolls, 16 (1936): 240,
263–264, 295–296]. It seems unlikely to me that Eleanor would be
styled "Countess of Arundel," if her husband had not borne that title
some time in his lifetime.
Since the records I've cited above were published after the Complete
Peerage account of John Arundel was written in 1910, perhaps this
matter needs another review.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
U...@aol.com
In a message dated 10/29/04 5:16:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
douglasr...@royalancestry.net writes:
Besides providing an approximate marriage date for Richard Poynings
and Eleanor Berkeley, these documents prove that John Arundel was
never Earl of Arundel, even though his widow, Eleanor, was known later
in life as "Countess of Arundel." I've copied below two earlier posts
which deal with this matter.
Interesting that CP does not officially call him Earl of Arundel, as follows:
18. JOHN D'ARUNDEL, [who, according to the admission of 1433] may be
considered Earl of Arundel, cousin and heir male, being son and heir of John
D'Arundel, by Elizabeth, daughter of Edward le Despenser, which last named John
[who never was summoned as a Baron] was son and heir of John D'Arundel
[summoned to Parliament 1377-79], who was brother of the whole blood of Richard [xv]
Earl of Arundel. Succeeded his father 14 August 1390, created K.B. 12
October 1399, became de jure Lord Mautravers by the death of his grandfather [suo
jure Baroness Mautravers] on 10 January 1404/5, but was never summoned to
Parliament as a Baron, though frequently styled Lord Mautravers. He was in the
French wars of 1415, in which year he succeeded to the Castle and Honour of
Arundel, and according to some authorities, is said to have been summoned to
Parliament as Earl of Arundel, 3 September 1416, though [probably owing to the
opposition of the great family Mowbray, the heirs gen. of the former Earls of
Arundel] never afterwards. He married, before 1407, Eleanor, daughter of
Sir John Berkeley, of Beverstone, co. Gloucester, by his 1st wife, Elizabeth,
daughter and heir of Sir John Betteshorne, of Betteshorne in Sopley, Hants.
He died 21 April 1421, and was buried at Arundel. His widow married, about
1423, Sir Richard Poynings, who was son and heir apparent of Robert, Lord
Poynings, but who died v.p., about 1430. She married 3rdly, before 8 May 1439,
Walter [Hungerford], Lord Hungerford, K.G., who died 1449. She died August
1455, and was buried at Arundel. Will [in whichshe styles herself "Countess of
Arundel and Lady Mautravers," and speaks of her 1st husband as "John, Earl
of Arundel" dated 20 July 1455, proved 23 August following. Source CP 1:247
Always optimistic--Dave
Tim Powys-Lybbe
This raises the question whether anyone can be a peer who was not
summoned to the house of lords. By an large CP takes the view that "de
jure" peers are to be treated as peers and gives them a succession
number. Or is this wrong and does much of CP need correcting?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Leo van de Pas
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage Settlement of Richard Poynings and
Eleanor Berkeley