Empress Theophano, wife of Otto II

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Kelsey J. Williams

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Jul 31, 2004, 1:36:43 PM7/31/04
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Hello,

What is the most current opinion on the parentage of Theophano (ca.
955-991), niece of Ioannes I Tzimiskes, and wife of Otto II? Thanks!

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Peter Stewart

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Jul 31, 2004, 8:36:33 PM7/31/04
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Kelsey J. Williams wrote:

> Hello,
>
> What is the most current opinion on the parentage of Theophano (ca.
> 955-991), niece of Ioannes I Tzimiskes, and wife of Otto II?

This can't be settled from definitive proof, of course, but the view
generally taken today was set out by Gunther Wolf in 'Wer war
Theophanu?', _Kaiserin Theophanu, Begegnung des Ostens und Westens um
die Wende des ersten Jahrtausends: Gedenkschrift des Koelner
Schnuetgen-Museums zum 1000 Todesjahr der Kaiserin_, edited by Anton von
Euw & Peter Schreiner, 2 vols (Cologne, 1991), II 385-396.

She is thought to have been the daughter of Konstantinos Skleros (whose
sister Maria was married to Emperor Iohannes Tzimiskes) and Maria Phokaina.

Peter Stewart

Ronald Di Iorio

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Aug 1, 2004, 1:08:21 AM8/1/04
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Greetings

So then, Leo Phokas, as given in AR 147 has been
discarded?

Ronald Di Iorio

Peter Stewart <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:Kelsey J.
Williams wrote:

Peter Stewart


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Todd A. Farmerie

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Aug 1, 2004, 1:28:46 AM8/1/04
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Ronald Di Iorio wrote:
> Greetings
>
> So then, Leo Phokas, as given in AR 147 has been
> discarded?

This was an editorial error from the start. It was corrected in
the errata to the third (1982) printing of the 5th Edition, but
then inexplicably retained in the 6th without comment or erratum.
I suppose it was carried through from there to the 7th, which I
don't have handy.

Where it reads ". . . prob. dau. of Leo Phokas, son of Sophia
Phokas by her husb. Constantine Skleros . . ." it was supposed to
read ". . . prob. dau. of Sophia Phokas (dau. of Leo Phokas), by
her husb. Constantine Skleros . . . ."

taf

George Tsambourakis

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Aug 1, 2004, 2:47:25 AM8/1/04
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"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:410C7F8E...@interfold.com...

> Where it reads ". . . prob. dau. of Leo Phokas, son of Sophia
> Phokas by her husb. Constantine Skleros . . ." it was supposed to
> read ". . . prob. dau. of Sophia Phokas (dau. of Leo Phokas), by
> her husb. Constantine Skleros . . . ."

So, was the wife of Con Skleros Sophia (dau of Leo) or Maria dau of ???
Con allegedly had also another daughter called Theophano by a mistress.
(I think the two Con's are not one and the same person)


> Ronald Di Iorio wrote:

> > Greetings
> >
> > So then, Leo Phokas, as given in AR 147 has been
> > discarded?
>
> This was an editorial error from the start. It was corrected in
> the errata to the third (1982) printing of the 5th Edition, but
> then inexplicably retained in the 6th without comment or erratum.
> I suppose it was carried through from there to the 7th, which I
> don't have handy.
>
>

> taf
>


Mark Harry

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Aug 1, 2004, 5:40:02 AM8/1/04
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"George Tsambourakis" <eachw...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message > So, was the wife of Con Skleros Sophia (dau of Leo) or Maria dau of ???

My understanding is that Sophia was Constantine's wife, and Maria the
sister. Also that Leon father of Sophia was Leo the brother of Emperor
Nikephoros II and marshal of the palace during the latter's reign.

Peter Stewart

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Aug 1, 2004, 6:30:23 AM8/1/04
to

Quite right - I absent-mindedly took the name Maria Phokaina from the
table on page 425 of the book I cited, where this mistake was
unaccountably made.

Theophanu evidently named her daughter Sophie (abbess of Gandersheim &
Essen) after her mother, who was a niece of Nikephoros Phokas.

Peter Stewart

Kelsey J. Williams

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Aug 1, 2004, 5:11:18 PM8/1/04
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Hello,

Thanks for these details. I had heard of 'Wer war Theophanu?' but had
not seen the article itself. Given this theory the following
ahnenreihe seems to represent Theophano's known ancestry:

1. Theophano [Skleraina]. b. ca. 955. d. 15 Jun 991, Nimwegen. m.
14 Apr 972, St. Peter's Rome, to Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor. (ODB
III: 2065).

2. Konstantinos Skleros. b. ca. 930. d. 11 Mar 991. (Seibt, 58-60).
3. Sophia Phokaina. (Seibt, 58).

4. "Munir" (Photeinos or Pantherios) Skleros. fl. ca. early 10th
century. (Seibt, 27-28).
5. Gregoria. (Seibt, 28).
6. Leo Phokas, kouropalates. b. ca. 915-20. d. aft. 970, poss. on
the island of Prote. (ODB III: 1667).

10. Bardas. (Seibt, 28; Settipani, 187).
12. Bardas Phokas. Domestikos of the East, 948. (ODB III: 1666; Du
Cange, 149).

20. Basileios, Rector & Magistros. (Seibt, 28; Settipani, 187).
24. Nikephoros Phokas "the Elder". d. ca. 900. (ODB III: 1666).

40. Bardas, brother of Emperor Basileios I "the Macedonian". d. aft.
867. (Seibt, 28; Settipani, 187).
42. N. Phokas, tourmarches. fl. ca. 872. (ODB III: 1666).

80. [Konstantinos]. d. ca. 838. (Settipani, 187).
81. Pankalo. d. aft. 838 & bu. in the Church of St. Euphemia.
(Settipani, 187).

160. Mai[a]ktes (i.e., Hmayeak). Supposedly a Mamikonian prince. fl.
in Adrianople. (Settipani, 187; Toumanoff, 344).
161. Na. (Settipani, 187).

322. Leo V "the Armenian", Emperor of Byzantium. d. 25 Dec 820,
Constantinople. (ODB II: 1209; Settipani, 187).
323. Theodosia. (ODB II: 1209; Settipani, 187).

644. Bardas, strategos of the Armeniakon theme, 771-780, patrikios,
780-792. d. 20 Jul 792. (Settipani, 187). Toumanoff (500) calls him
a "Prince Gnouni".
646. Arsaber, quaestor, patrikios, pretender to the throne in 808. d.
aft. 808, prob. in Bithynia. (ODB I: 186; Settipani, 187). A "Prince
Kamsarakan" per Toumanoff (270).

It is interesting that (as John Ravilious mentioned earlier) the
Doukai may be descended from another child of Sophia & Konstantinos.
This would mean that there were at least 640 years (from 813, the date
of Leo V's accession, to 1453) of genealogical continuity in the later
Byzantine Empire, from Leo the Armenian to the last Palaiologoi. This
begs the question whether there might not be a similar chain of
continuity earlier in the history of the Empire. Perhaps from Rome to
Constantinople?

Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams

Sources:
Du Cange = Charles Du Fresne, Sieur Du Cange, _Historia Byzantina
Duplici Commentario Illustrata_ (Paris, 1680).
ODB = _The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_, 3v. (New York, Oxford,
1991).
Seibt = Werner Seibt, _Die Skleroi: Eine
Prosopographisch-Sigillographische Studie_ (Wien, 1976).
Settipani = Christian Settipani, _Nos Ancetres de l'Antiquite_ (Paris,
1991).
Toumanoff = Cyrille Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie
pour l'Histoire de la Caucasie Chretienne (Armenie - Georgie -
Albanie)_ (Roma, 1976).

Peter Stewart <p m ste...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<lWWOc.25692$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...


> Kelsey J. Williams wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > What is the most current opinion on the parentage of Theophano (ca.
> > 955-991), niece of Ioannes I Tzimiskes, and wife of Otto II?
>
> This can't be settled from definitive proof, of course, but the view
> generally taken today was set out by Gunther Wolf in 'Wer war

> Theophanu?', Kaiserin Theophanu, Begegnung des Ostens und Westens um

> die Wende des ersten Jahrtausends: Gedenkschrift des Koelner

> Schnuetgen-Museums zum 1000 Todesjahr der Kaiserin , edited by Anton von

John Ravilious

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Aug 2, 2004, 8:12:49 AM8/2/04
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Sunday, 1 August, 2004


Hello Peter, Kelsey, Todd, George, Ronald, et al.,

The following chart lays out the relationships in the Phokas
family, including the fact that the Emperor John I Tzimiskes was
a nephew of the Emperor Nicephorus II, and 1st cousin of Sophia
Phokaina (the subject wife of Constantine Skleros). I would
assume that the relationship indicated here, with Theophano
{Sklerina} shown as a blood kinswoman or <nepta> of John
Tzimiskes, is the basis for Gunther Wolf's assigning
Theophano's parentage to Constantine Skleros and Sophia Phokaina.


Bardas Phokas
______________I_____________________________________
I I I
Nicephorus II Leo Phokas NN Phokaina
domesticus of the Scholae curopalates, 963-969 = NN Tzimiskes
of the East, 954 'domestikos' of the I
Byzantine Emperor 963-969 West (blinded 969) I_______
(murdered 11 Dec 969) I I
______________________________I _____________ I
I I I I I I
Bardas Leo Sophia = Constantine Maria = John I
Phokas Phokas : Skleros Sklerina Tzimiskes
Byz. Emperor : Byz. Emperor
(pretender) : 969-976
969, again .............:.............
987-989 : :
NN Theophano = Otto II
: I Holy Rom
: I Emperor
Andronicus = NN Sklerina [1] V 973-983
Dukas I
_________I______________________
I I
Constantine X Dukas Caesar John Dukas = Irene
Byz. Emperor 1059-1067 d. 1088 I
I
I
Andronicus Dukas
{deserted Emperor Romanus at Manzikert}
I
I
Alexius I = Irene Dukaina
Byz. Emperor I
1081-1118 I
I
V


The relationship of NN Sklerina, wife of Andronicus Dukas, is a
possibility - as noted previously in another thread, Christian
Settipani drew on the Chronographia of Michael Psellus to show that
the wife of Andronicus Dukas was a descendant of Pantherios Skleros,
and either a daughter [I think granddaughter] or niece of Constantine
Skleros [1]. This raises added interest in the genealogical
connections through the Phokas family, as the descendants of the
Western Emperor Otto II (through his daughter Matilda) would be
near relations to the Byzantine Emperor Constantine X, and the
descendants of his brother Caesar John Dukas (which include the
Comneni and subsequent Byzantine Emperors).

If anyone should have any further thoughts or documentation
on the Dukas-Skleros connection set forth above, that would be
appreciated.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES:

[1] Christian Settipani, <Re: Andronikos Doukas>, SGM, 16 July 2000.

* John P. Ravilious

"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message news:<410C7F8E...@interfold.com>...

Jared Linn Olar

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Aug 2, 2004, 12:27:42 PM8/2/04
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I don't have it handy right now, but as I recall, Sir Anthony Richard
Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress" has the argument (from Toumanoff?)
for Theophano being the daughter of Romanus II and Theophano.

Jared Linn Olar

gkkwi...@cowboy.net (Kelsey J. Williams) wrote in message news:<5b747dd9.0408...@posting.google.com>...

J.Hamby

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Aug 2, 2004, 6:59:49 PM8/2/04
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jo...@pekintimes.com (Jared Linn Olar) wrote in message news:<ac1a3786.04080...@posting.google.com>...

> I don't have it handy right now, but as I recall, Sir Anthony Richard
> Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress" has the argument (from Toumanoff?)
> for Theophano being the daughter of Romanus II and Theophano.
>


On page 258 in the Notes section, the argument covered is Toumanoff
and suggests that Rudt-Collenberg offered the only serious
counter-argument (that of the lack of a dispensation when the matter
of Otto III's marriage to Romanus' granddaughter Zoe. Wagner quotes
Toumanoff as saying the lack of a dispensation proves nothing.

_Pedigree and Progress_ by Anthony Wagner 1975 page 258, note to
Pedigree 43

---
JSH

marshall kirk

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Aug 2, 2004, 8:13:32 PM8/2/04
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Wagner, _Pedigree and Progress_, 258, quotes from a letter from
Toumanoff on this issue; T plumps for Romanos II and Theophano as
parents of Otto's wife. One of the main arguments *contra* has been
the apparent rule that the Byzantines didn't name their kids after
themselves. I have no opinion on how rigid this rule was, tho' I'll
note that the same argument has been made *vis-a-vis* the Franks,
altho' Gregory of Tours gives one definite example of a father and son
who shared a single name.

jo...@pekintimes.com (Jared Linn Olar) wrote in message news:<ac1a3786.04080...@posting.google.com>...

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