The Soothills and the manor of Redbourne, Lincs.
The...@aol.com
Hello Paul, et al.,
I have noted two families (or lines of descent) which held the manor
of Redbourne, co. Lincs. [or portions thereof], for which I have noted the
descent below. The first is one which you had identified in an older post
concerning William Longespee [March 1998, on SGM]; the second for which we
find a pedigree in the Visitation of Lincolnshire [Harleian Series, vols.
50-52].
There was evidently a transfer (or at least partial transfer) between
the 'older' family and the 'newer': as noted in the pedigree of Soothill of
Redbourn in the Visitation of Lincolnshire, Sir Gerard Soothill was
_enfeoffed in two parts of the manor of Redbourn by John de Beckingham and
Beatrice his wife, 1371_.
It is possible that this occurred as a matter of purchase, in that in
appears (at least, given the apparent circumstances of the transfer) that the
line of Neville of Redbourne died out in the 14th century. However, it is
possible there was a family connection not otherwise evident in meager source
used below for the Nevilles of Redbourne for the later 14th century [_orabile
dictu!_ Having no other source to hand, as noted, Ancestral Files was used
where noted...].
Are you aware of a marriage or blood connection that would account for
the transfer in 1371?
The lines of descent I show are as follows:
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
A. Crevequer and Neville, of Redbourne, co. Lincs.
.1. Alexander de Crevequer, of Redbourne, co. Lincs.; d. ca. 1165; m. Amabel
fitz Adam, daughter and coheiress of Adam fitz Swain, of Appleby, co. Lincs.
.2. Cecily de Crevequer, heiress of Redbourne, d. 1218; m. Walter de Neville;
d. ca. 1198.
.3. Alexander de Neville, of Redbourne; d. ca. 1219; m. Margaret.
.4. Alexander de Neville, of Redbourne; d. 1249.
Issue (2 coheiresses):
A. Ellen de Neville, m. Richard le Tyes
B. Margaret de Neville [see #5 below]
.5. [FROM ANCESTRAL FILES : ]
Margaret de Neville, coheiress [brought Redbourne to her
husband], d. 1279; m. Nicholas de Neville, son of
Roger de Neville, of Kings Warden, co. Herts.
.6. Roger de Neville, of Redbourne; d. 1322; m. Beatrice
.7. Roger de Neville, of Redbourne; d. 1357.
Issue:
A. Peter de Neville, of Redbourn; d. 1366
[it APPEARS from Ancestral Files, his son Roger
d.s.p. ca. 1370]
B. Beatrice [see #8 below]
C. Philippa; m. Thomas de Neville, of Faldingworth
.8. Beatrice de Neville; m. John de Beckingham
[The above being the couple identified in the Visitation pedigree
enfeoffing Sir Gerard Soothill, as stated, 1371]
- - - - - - - - - -
B. Soothill, of Redbourne, co. Lincs.
.1. Sir Gerard Soothill, younger son of Sir Henry Soothill of Soothill and
Joan FitzWilliam; as stated, was enfeoffed in two parts of Redbourn, 1371;
Sheriff of Lincoln, 1402; m. Muriel Salvain [first name not given in
Visitation pedigree], daughter of Sir Gerard Salvain of North Duffield, co.
York.
Issue:
A. Sir Gerard Soothill, of Redbourn, co. Lincs. and
Brearley, co. York [inheritance or maritagium of
his second wife ?]; m. 2ndly Elizabeth, daughter
of John Fulnetby
[Ancestors of William Farrar, GARD]
B. John Soothill, of West Rasen, co. Lincs [inheritance
of his wife]; d. 1445; m. Joan Poucher or Powcher
C. Henry Soothill
[Ancestor of Soothills of Stokefaston, co. Leics.]
D. Thomas Soothill
E. Joan Soothill
F. Ellen Soothill
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Any enlightenment on the Redbourne connection indicated above (as well
as criticism/correction of the foregoing, esp. the Ancestral Files info) is
certainly appreciated.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John
Claud...@aol.com
I am not related to Gerard Sothill but am descended from his brother Henry
Sothill. I
know very little about Gerard Sothill but today in my files found the
following which someone else on the list may be able to add to:
Calendar of Inquisition Post Mortem Henry IV Vol. XIX page 273:
760 Writ 26 Aug. 1410 Gerard Sothill, Knight
Lincoln. Inquisition. Stamford. 8 Sept.
He held 2 parts of the manor of Redbourne in his demesne as of fee of the
king in chief by knight service, amount unknown, with the reversion of the
third part after the death of Constance wife of Peter Nevill who holds in
dower. It comprises 2 parts of the site with houses, annual value nil, 2
parts of the croft called 'Castelgarth', formerly the capital site of the
manor, 2s., 1 1/2 carucates of arable in demesne with adjacent moor and
marsh, 13s.4d., 2 parts of a croft called 'le Appelgarth' with 6 a. of
adjacent marshy meadow with rushes, 6s8d., two parts of a closed croft called
'Godemaydengarth', 12d., 2 parts of a little croft called 'le Conynger', 4d.,
2 parts of assize rents, 6s.8d., 2 views of frankpledge twice yearly after
Easter and Michaelmas and a court every three weeks, 2 parts 2s.
He also held in his demesne as of fee 1 waste toft with an old dovecot
and 7 bovates in Blyton, annual value 3s., the dovecot being in ruins, the
enclosure broken, and the land burdened with rents, services and customs
payable to the chief lords of the fee. They are held of Henry prince of Wales
of his soke of Kirton in Lindsey, rendering 24s.6d. and other services and
customs.
He died on 1 Aug last. Gerard his son and heir was aged 11 years on 14
Sept. last.
From the wording of the IPM it appears that Constance wife of Peter Neville
is connected with the family. I have only Joan Fitzwilliam as the wife of
Henry Sothill the elder.
If anyone can shed light on this family it would be appreciated.
MichaelAnne Guido
The...@aol.com
Hello MichaelAnne,
Thanks for your excellent post!
The inquisition you cited was directly on target (an inquisition ought to
be spot on, no ?). While we still do not have THE answer to the Redbourne
connection, this does appear to show:
1. That at his death in 1410, Sir Gerard Soothill or Sothill held the two
parts of the manor of Redbourne in which (according to the Soothill pedigree
in the Visitation of Lincoln) he was enfeoffed by John de Beckingham and
Beatrice his wife (evidently, Beatrice de Neville as per the Ancestral Files
record I cited) in 1371; and
2. That Constance, widow of Peter de Neville of Redbourne (allegedly have
d. in 1366) still held 'the third part of the manor' in dower in 1410, which
was to revert to Sir Gerard Soothill on her death (evidently without
surviving issue).
It seems that Sir Gerard had a close connection to the Nevilles of
Redbourne, probably as a near relation (possibly a nephew of Peter de Neville
and his sister Beatrice; or a near cousin ?) who was 'next in line' in the
Redbourne inheritance. This remains to be developed; but your sharing the
Inquisition p.m. for Sir Gerard helps significantly in that direction.
Keep us posted should you find another treasure; I will surely do
likewise.
Good luck, and good continued hunting.
Your cousin (18th by my count), John
Rosie Bevan
There is a series of articles in the later volumes of The Genealogist (IIRC
vols 26-30ish) about the various branches of the Neville families by Edmund
R. Nevill. I just happen to have a copy of the drop line pedigrees from one
of these articles (v.27 p. 6) some of which I have converted to show the
descent.
1. Gilbert de Neville, 1115
2.Gilbert de Nevill founder of Tupholme, progenitor of Raby line father
of Geoffery de Nevill d.1193 who married Emma de Bulmer
2.Alan de Nevill d.1190=Juliana da of Robert Canu
2.Geoffery
2.William=Mabel da of Adam fitzSwain
2.Hervey de Nevill
2.Walter de Nevill=Cecily d. of Alexander de Crevequer of Redbourne
3.Alexander de Nevill d.1222=Margery
4.John de Nevill d.s.p.
4.Alexander de Nevill d.1249=Matelcon(???)
5.Alexander de Nevill d.s.p.
5.Margery=Nicholas de Nevill d.1285 son of Roger de Nevill
6.Roger de Nevill d. 1322
7.Roger de Nevill d.1357
8.Peter de Nevill d.1366
9.Roger de Nevill, 3 in 1366 d.s.p.
8.Philippa=Thomas de Nevill of Faldingworth
d.1361
9.John de Nevill
8.Beatrice=John de Bekyngham
Constance mentioned in the IPM of Gerard Sothill is undoubtedly widow of
Peter de Nevill d.1366, holding her third share of the manor in dower. Her
IPM as Constantia former wife of Peter Nevill is in 5 Hen VI (1427). Gerard
Sothill the younger appears to have given proof of age the same year. His
IPM is 3 Edw IV (1464). There is no IPM for Roger de Nevill and the fact
that Gerard Sothill was enfeeoffed with two thirds of Redbourne manor in
1371 suggests that Roger may have died in his minority shortly before then.
His heirs would be his cousin John and issue of Beatrice. The IPM of John
Nevill of Faldingworth in 6 Hen VI (1428) may help to establish whether he
left an heir or not but he is recorded as holding lands in Redbourne when he
died. How Beatrice and John appeared to have possession of two thirds manor
in 1371 before the death of John Nevill is not entirely clear, especially as
Beatrice appears to be the younger daughter. Some kind of property transfer
appears to have taken place before that.
Cheers
Rosie
Rosie Bevan
The following shows that there was indeed a previous property transaction
between John de Nevill and the Bekynghams.
PRO
Item details for C 143/371/12
John de Nevill of Faldingworth to grant half the manor of Redbourne to John
de Bekyngham, Beatrice his wife, and his heirs, retaining land in
Faldingworth. Lincoln.
44 EDWARD III
Item details for C 143/375/5
John de Bekyngham and Beatrice his wife to grant two-thirds of the manor of
Redbourne, with the reversion of the other third, now held for life by
Constance late the wife of Peter de Nevill, to Gerard de Sotehill, Robert
his brother, and the heirs of the said Gerard, retaining land and rent in
Flixborough.
45 EDWARD III
If there is a blood relationship between the Sothills and Nevilles, the
evidence points that it will be found with Beatrice. At a guess, Gerard
Sothill the elder's mother was daughter of Beatrice. The reason for thinking
this is the concern that the manor descend to the Sothills via this
generation as heirs consecutively of John de Nevill and Beatrice and John
Bekyngham. Also the date of this grant is 35 years before Gerard the Younger
was born. John de Neville would have been of age in 1371 to make the grant,
making him born at least before 1350 indicating that Philippa was born at
least by 1335. Clearly Philippa and Beatrice are of a generation belonging
to Sir Henry Sothill. I would suggest that you consider the possibility that
Joan FitzWilliam may not have been mother of Gerard the elder and Robert
Sothill his brother.
Cheers
Rosie
The...@aol.com
Hello Rosie and MichaelAnne,
I certainly concur, given the transactions amongst the (known) relatives of Peter de Neville of Redbourne, that Sir Gerard Soothill (later of Redbourne) had a blood relationship with the Nevilles (as both Rosie and I suggested in yesterday's posts).
One possibility I would theorize at this point. In the generation following Peter de Neville (d. 1366), we have the following individuals:
1. Roger de Nevill, indicated (in Rosie's post) as being 3 years of age in the Inq.p.m. of his father, therefore born ca. 1363.
2. John de Nevill of Faldingworth, probably born before 1351 given his grant re: Redbourne to John de Bekyngham and Beatrice in 1370/71.
Sir Gerard Soothill ('the elder') was probably born before 1351 as well, given the grant from John de Bekyngham and Beatrice in 1371. I agree that the transfers indicate a relationship between Beatrice and Sir Gerard, and would propose that Beatrice de Neville was the 2nd wife of Henry de Soothill, and thereby mother of Sir Gerard and Robert his brother.
If this proposed relationship is correct, we would have the following situation :
Roger de Neville of Redbourne
d. 1357
______________________I____________________________
I I I
Peter de Beatrice de Philippa
Neville Neville de Neville
d. 1366 1) Henry = 2) John de = = Thomas
=Constance de Soothill I Bekyngham Neville
I I I
I _______I_______ I
Roger de I I I
Neville Sir Gerard Robert John
dsp 1370 Soothill Soothill de Neville
age ca 7 d. 1410 d. 1428
While short of currently proving this relationship, it certainly would fit with the evidence now in hand. The Joan FitzWilliam connection would be lost to this branch of the Soothills, however......
Thanks for all your efforts to date - putting these pieces together hopefully will eventually fill in another part of the familial puzzle.
Good luck and good continued hunting.
John
Sutliff
Alice Sotehill of Sotehill, Yorks., wife of John Beaumont of Whitley, Yorks
(grandparents of Sir Richard Lyster d. 1545, Chief Justice of the King's
Bench), was daughter of John Sotehill and his wife Alice Neville of
Leversedge, Yorks, daughter of Sir Robert Neville and Ellen Molyneux.
These Yorkshire Sotehills appear to be somewhat later than Gerard and
siblings. I have the Sotehill pages from VY, but they are packed away
pending my move. Will write this down to look in my Yorkshire and
Lincolnshire files when unpacked.
Henry Sutliff
"Rosie Bevan" <cbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:096101c1553e$b4b6d9a0$04794fcb@cbevan...
Kevan L. Barton
I noted this msg with great interest when you mentioned the Lister/Lyster
family. Are you talking about Sir Richard Lister, chief justice of England,
and master of the wards, who is the progenitor of the Blounts of Maple
Durham, co. Oxford? If it is, you've certainly got yet another line that
I'm going to be looking for. The Richard Lister I have has a John Lister as
the father and a dau. of ... Beaumont as a mother. Richard had a son
Michael who married Elizabeth De la bere, and a daughter Elizabeth who
married Sir Richard Blount. Any help? I'm hoping'
Cheers,
Kevan