Count Odo/Cunegonde

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Roger LeBlanc

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Aug 12, 2005, 4:14:10 PM8/12/05
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While reviewing ninth century ancestors, I have discovered that I have
no ancestors for Count Odo/Udo of the Wettergau/Wetterau, who following
Settipani was the husband of Cunegonde of Vermandois. I know Settipani
shows at least his father as Gebhard, but I'm wondering if there has
been any revision in the accepted ancestry of this count. I wasn't able
to find much discussion in the archives about him either.

Roger LeBlanc

The...@aol.com

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Aug 12, 2005, 4:48:17 PM8/12/05
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Friday, 12 August, 2005


Dear Roger,

Following is a brief pedigree I show of Gebhard of Swabia,
count of the Rheingau and Duke of Lorraine (903-910) largely based
on Europäische Stammtafeln. My notes from same show "NN" as
daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois and wife of Count Udo: if
Christian has found her name to be Cunigunda/Cunegonde, could you
cite the source for same?

Hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

John

1 Gebhard of Swabia
----------------------------------------
Death: 22 Jun 0910, near Augsburg[1]
Occ: Duke of Lorraine, 903-910

count of the Rheingau
Duke of Lorraine, 903-910

cf. ES I Tafel 8[1]

Children: Hermann (-0949)
Udo (-0949)


1.1 Hermann of Swabia
----------------------------------------
Death: 10 Dec 0949[1]
Occ: duke of Swabia

duke of Swabia 926-949

lay abbot of Echternach
founder of the monastery of St. Florin (Koblenz)

cf. ES I Tafel 10[1]

Spouse: Regelinda
Death: aft 29 Apr 0958[1]
Father: Eberhard II of Zurichgau, graf im Zurichgau
Mother: Gisela
Marr: 0926[1]

Children: Ida (-0986)


1.1.1 Ida of Swabia[2]
----------------------------------------
Death: 17 May 0986[1]

cf. ES I Tafel 8, 10[1]

Spouse: Liudolf of the Empire, duke of Swabia
Birth: ca 0930[3]
Death: 6 Sep 0957, d.v.p.[3],[1]
Father: Otto I 'the Great' of the Empire (0912-0973)
Mother: Eadgyth of Wessex (-0946)
Marr: ca 0947[2],[1]

Children: Matilda (0949-1011)
Otto (0954-0982)
Richlind


1.1.1.1 Matilda of the Empire
----------------------------------------
Birth: 0949[1]
Death: 6 Nov 1011[1]
Occ: Abbess of Essen

Abbess of Essen

addressed by her cousin Æthelweard, who dedicated his Chronicon to
her:
in his discussion of the sons of King Æthelwulf, he notes
' The fourth was Æthelred, who succeeded to the kingdom after the
death of Æthelbyrht, and who was my great-great-grandfather. The
fifth was Ælfred, successor after all the others to the entire
kingdom, who was your great-great-grandfather. Accordingly, sweet
cousin Matilda, having gathered these things from remote
antiquity, I have made communication to you, and above all I have
given attention to the history of our race as far as these two
kings, from whom we derive our descent. To you, therefore, I
dedicate this work, most beloved, spurred by family affection.'[4]


1.1.1.2 Otto of Swabia
----------------------------------------
Birth: 0954[1]
Death: 31 Oct 0982[2],[5]
Occ: Duke of Swabia and Bavaria

Duke of Swabia and Bavaria

' A.D. 982. ...and as he [Emperor Otto II] went homeward, his
brother's son died, who was also called Otto; and he
was the son of Leodulf Atheling. This Leodulf was
the son of Otho the Elder and of the daughter of
King Edward.' [ASC 100[5] ]


1.1.1.3 Richlind of Swabia
----------------------------------------

identified by J. C. Parsons as daughter of Liudolf of Swabia[3]

'Regenlint' [cf. ES I Tafel 9[1]]

Spouse: Conrad of Swabia, duke of Swabia 983-997
Death: 20 Aug 0997[6],[1]

Children: Hermann II (-<1003)
Itta
Hemma (-1020)


1.1.1.3.1 Hermann II of Swabia
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 4 May 1003[7],[1]
Occ: Duke of Swabia

Duke of Swabia 997-1003

'..Herimannus dux Alamanniae,..' father of Gisela (empress and wife
of Conrad II). Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris, Capitulum IV[8]

cf. ES I Tafel 9[1]

Spouse: Gerberga of Burgundy
Birth: 0965[7]
Death: 7 Jul 1019[7],[1]
Father: Conrad III 'the Pacific', king of Burgundy (ca0930-0993)
Mother: Matilda of France (0943-<0992)
Marr: ca 0986[1]

Children: Matilda (ca0988-1031), m. (2) Frederick II of Upper
Lorraine
Gisela (0990-1043), m. (1) Emperor Conrad II
Berchtold (0992-0993)
Beatrix (->1025)
Hermann III (<0995-1012), duke of Swabia


1.1.1.3.2 Itta of Swabia[9]
----------------------------------------

or, Itta 'von Oehningen'

cf. ES I Tafel 9[1]

Spouse: Rudolf II von Altdorf
Death: ca 0990
Father: Rudolf I von Altdorf (->0949)

Children: Henry (-1000), graf von Altdorf
Welf II (-1030), graf von Altdorf [see BELOW]
Richlind (-1045)


1.2 Udo of Swabia
----------------------------------------
Death: 0949[1]

count of the Rheingau

cf. ES I Tafel 8[1]

Spouse: NN of Vermandois
Father: Heribert I of Vermandois (-0907)

Children: Heribert (-0992)


1.2.1 Heribert of Kinziggau
----------------------------------------
Death: 0992[1]
Occ: graf in Kinziggau

graf in Kinziggau

cf. ES I Tafel 8[1]

Spouse: Ermentrude
Father: Megingoz 'comes'
Mother: Gerberga

Children: Gerberga (->0985)
Otto (-1036)


1.2.1.1 Gerberga of Kinziggau
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 0985[1]

brought Gleiberg as her maritagium[10],[11]

cf. ES I Tafel 8[1],
cf. ES I Band I.2 Tafel 203 (Luxemburg)[12]

Spouse: Frederick of Luxembourg
Death: 6 Oct 1019[1],[12]
Father: Siegfried of Luxembourg (->0997)
Mother: Hedwig

Children: Henry (-1047), duke of Bavaria
Frederick (-1065), duke of Lorraine
Adalbert (-1072), bishop of Metz
Giselbert (-1056), graf von Salm
Dietrich
Hermann
Ogiva (-1036), m. Baldwin IV, count of Flanders
Gisela
Ermentrude (-1055), m. Welf II von Altdorf [see ABOVE]
Uda, abbess of St. Remy


1.2.1.2 Otto of Hammerstein
----------------------------------------
Death: 5 Jun 1036[1]
Occ: graf im Engersgau

graf im Engersgau

Spouse: Ermengard of Lorraine
Death: 1042[1]
Father: Gottfried of Lorraine (->0987)
Mother: Matilda 'Billung' of Saxony (-1008)


1. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
2. Pierre Riche (trans. by Michael I. Allen), "The Carolingians,"
Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1993.
3. "Edward the Aetheling's wife, Agatha," John Carmi Parsons, The
Plantagenet Connection, Vol. 10, 1 & 2 (Summer/Winter 2002),
ed. Kenneth Harper Finton, pp. 31-54.
4. A. Campbell, ed., "The Chronicle of Æthelweard," (London, 1962),
text of The Fourth Book of The Chronicle of Æthelweard,
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/aethelweard.htm
5. "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle," translated by The Rev. James Ingram,
London: J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd., 1934 (reprint of first edition,
1912), Everyman's Library, No. 624.
6. Richard Borthwick, "Re: Savoie," Jan 3, 2000,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Europaische Stammtafeln
[ES I.1:9], descent from Conrad of Swabia (d. 997) extended by
Gerard Bieber.
7. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.),
"Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists," Baltimore:
Genealogical Pub. Co., connection of Isabel de Condet and Hugh
Bardolf, as cited by E. Mann, Line 132D-27,-28 in AR7, also,
Descendants of Henry I of Germany (10/30/98), Line 157
(Gerberga of Burgundy to Emperor Henry III).
8. "Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris," Wiponis Gesta Chuonradi II
ceteraque quae supersunt opera, ed. H. Bresslau, Hannover
1878/1915, Bibliotheca Augustana site :
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost11/Wipo/wip_vit0.html
chronicle of the reign of Conrad II (1027-1039) and Henry III
(1039-1056).
9. Paul Theroff, "The House of Welf," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files,
worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/welf.txt
10. Stewart Baldwin, "Heribert of Kinziggau," April 25, 2002,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, citing 'Historia Welforum
Weingartensis' in MGH SS 21, 460, citing 'Vita Adelheidis',
MGH SS 15, 757 [3/24/2002], additional contributions by Hans
Vogels and others.
11. Stewart Baldwin, "Re: ES contradiction Heinrich von
Schweinfurt," May 24, 2003, paper copy: library of John
Ravilious, discusses ES 1.1.8 and ES 1.1.88, email
sba...@mindspring.com
12. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio Klostermann, 1999 [4th series],
Band I.2 - Premysliden, Askanier, Herzoge von Lothringen, die
Hauser Hessen, Wurttemberg und Zahringen, First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.

Roger LeBlanc

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Aug 12, 2005, 5:42:53 PM8/12/05
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Thanks John for the information. Cunegonde's name is from La Préhistoire
des Capétiens p. 222.

Todd A. Farmerie

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Aug 12, 2005, 9:11:00 PM8/12/05
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The...@aol.com wrote:

> Following is a brief pedigree I show of Gebhard of Swabia,
> count of the Rheingau and Duke of Lorraine (903-910) largely based
> on Europäische Stammtafeln. My notes from same show "NN" as
> daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois and wife of Count Udo: if
> Christian has found her name to be Cunigunda/Cunegonde, could you
> cite the source for same?

I don't know about Settipani, but Jackman (_Criticism and Critique:
Sidelights on the Konradinger_, pp. 35-9) shows the same. He cites the
analysis of Karl Schmid:

"Probleme um den Grafen 'Kuno von Öhningen'", in _Dorf und Stift
Öhningen_, ed. H. Berner. Singen, 1966, pp. 43-94.

The analysis appears to derive from the Reichenau memorial-book list,
which provides a list of names that have been interpreted as an
abbreviated pedigree of the family, with "Chunigund" at the position
expected for Udo's wife. I must admit that I lack the expertise to
evaluate this reconstruction, but it seems much less cut and dried to me.

taf

Roger LeBlanc

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Aug 12, 2005, 10:48:57 PM8/12/05
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It took a while but I recall the thread concerning Count Udo/Odo that
appeared in Gen-Med. It was Stewart Baldwin's detailed discussion of the
ancestry of Heribert of Kinziggau in 2002. He concluded that without
certainty as to their identities he was removing them from his list of
Henry II's ancestors in the Henry Project, where I see no parents are
shown for Heribert.

Roger LeBlanc

Stewart Baldwin

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Aug 13, 2005, 1:32:00 AM8/13/05
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No primary source states the parentage of Heribert. The two most
widely mentioned reconstructions would either make Heribert a son of
Udo by his unnamed Vermandois wife (e.g., Eduard Hlawitschka) or would
make Heribert descend from a different branch of the family (e.g.,
Armin Wolf, Donald Jackman). I have not looked at this much in the
last year or so, but what additional reading I have done makes me lean
more toward Hlawitschka's reconstruction than I did before. If
Hlawitschka is wrong, then I would regard the addition of one more
generation between Udo and Heribert to be a more likely possibility
than the theories proposed by Wolf and Jackman, which I find very
unconvincing.

As for the original questions asked in the thread, I am unaware of any
serious controversy regarding Udo's father. The contuator of Regino's
annals, in reporting the death of Gebhard in 910, mentions his two
sons Udo and Herimann. The marriage of Udo (but not the name of his
wife) is documented by Flodoard's annals under the year 946, which
state that "Uddo" (called a brother of Herimann, thus making his
identity clear) was married to a woman who was sister of count
Arnulf's wife (clearly referring to Arnulf of Flanders) and an aunt of
bishop Hugo (clearly referring to bishop Hugh of Reims). Like Todd, I
find the arguments which would attempt to assign a name to Udo's wife
unconvincing.

Stewart Baldwin

Roger LeBlanc

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Aug 13, 2005, 2:19:33 PM8/13/05
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Thanks for the reply Stewart. Settipani does state as well that the
woman in question is not named in sources and refers to Jackman's work
for her identity.

I am confused though, if as you point out, Udo's wife was the sister of
the wife of Arnulf of Flanders, that would make her a daughter of
Heribert II of Vermandois, rather than Heribert I. From a chronological
viewpoint, that almost looks better. Have I understood your message
correctly?

Roger LeBlanc

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
<message snipped>

Stewart Baldwin

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Aug 13, 2005, 3:20:07 PM8/13/05
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On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:19:33 +0000 (UTC), lebl...@mts.net (Roger
LeBlanc) wrote:

>Thanks for the reply Stewart. Settipani does state as well that the
>woman in question is not named in sources and refers to Jackman's work
>for her identity.
>
>I am confused though, if as you point out, Udo's wife was the sister of
>the wife of Arnulf of Flanders, that would make her a daughter of
>Heribert II of Vermandois, rather than Heribert I. From a chronological
>viewpoint, that almost looks better. Have I understood your message
>correctly?

My apologies. I was very careless in reporting the statement of
Flodoard, who staes that Udo's wife was an aunt ("amita") of bishop
Hugh, and that Arnulf's wife was a sister of bishop Hugh (not of Udo's
wife).

Stewart Baldwin

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