Mabel de Muscegros, wife of Hervey de Stafford & Robert de Li sle, CP correction?
Chris Phillips
Jim Weber wrote:
<<
CP VIII:70 states that Robert de Lisle m. 1stly before 1252, Mabel, widow
of Hervey, baron of Stafford (d. 1241), and daughter of Sir Robert de
Muscegros, of Charlton, by Hawise, daughter and coheir of Sir William
Malet, of Curry Malet.
CP XII/1:171 has "Hervey de Stafford, son and heir. He m. Mabel,
daughter of Richard de Mucegros. He dsp. before 7 Oct 1241, having left
a will. Mabel survived him and was living in Apr. 1242.
These don't seem to agree with each other. And Volume XIV didn't do a
very good job in trying to make them agree.
Volume XIV:589, in its cook-book fashion, corrects the Hervey de Stafford
entry by inserting after Mucegros ", of Charlton, by Hawise, daughter and
coheir of Sir William Malet, of Curry Mallet.". XIV also inserts after
1242,
"Mabel m. 2ndly, Robert de Lisle, who d. 1284." Volume XIV cited the
Lisle entry in volume VIII:70 as the source for making the correction.
Superficially XIV didn't change the name from Mucegros to Muscegros,
nor did it change Richard to Robert, nor did it change Mabel's death date
of "living Apr 1242" to something indicating she was married again
"before 1252".
But more importantly, I am not sure that the two entries are talking about
the same Mabel. I believe that Richard de Muscegros was father of
Robert de Muscegros, in which case XII/1:171 might be indicating that
the Mabel who was wife of Hervey de Stafford was one generation earlier
and an aunt of the Mabel who married Robert de Lisle. Hervey de
Stafford died in 1241, while Robert de Lisle was the son of a "bef. Feb
1239/40" marriage and was of age before 1264 when he obtained a
charter. It doesn't make sense for a woman to marry as a 2nd husband,
a man who might not have quite been born when her 1st husband died.
>>
I've had a look at some of the relevant records, and at least it is clear
that Mabel the wife of Hervey de Stafford is described as the daughter of
Robert, not Richard, de Muscegros.
This comes in the form of an order, dated 29 April 1242 to the sheriff of
Staffordshire that Mabel the daughter of Robert de "Mucegros" who was the
wife of Hervey de Stafford was to have full seisin of the custody of the
land which was of Ralph de Mutton in Ingerstreht, Grettewich' and in Rowell'
which the same Hervey left to Mabel in his last will.
[Calendar of Close Rolls 1237-42, p. 418; 26 Henry III Part I, m. 4; the
leaving of lands to his wife is mentioned by CP]
Mabel the wife of Robert de Insula (de Lisle) is also stated to be the
daughter of Sir Robert de Muscegros in the transaction dated 17 May 1271,
referred to by CP, by which Robert and Mavel quitclaim to Sir John de
Muscegros 10 librates of land which they hold of him in Kenemerton, which
Mabel had in free marriage of the gift of her father, Robert de Muscegros.
I haven't seen a record which explicitly speaks of the same Mabel being wife
of both Hervey and Robert, but it seems reasonabe to assume they were the
same woman. In any case, vol. 14 wasn't guilty of trying to force a Mabel
daughter of Richard into the same shoes as Mabel daughter of Robert. It may
be that some more searching would find definite evidence that Robert's wife
held land in Ingestre, Gratwich or Rowley, left to her by Hervey, or
conversely that the wife of Hervey held the marriage portion in Kemerton.
There is also an interesting indication that - as I interpret it - Mabel had
a sister, who was married to one Geoffrey de Ambely:
(1) 5 October 1245, Richard de Munfichet was ordered to cause Geoffrey de
Ambely to have 3 deer in the forest of Essex for the feast to celebrate the
bringing home of the daughter of Robert de Muscegros his wife, of the king's
gift.
[Calendar of Close Rolls 1242-1247, p. 343; 29 Henry III, m. 1; indexed as
"gift of deer for his feast when he brings his bride home"]
(2) 2 August 1252, the sheriff of Essex is ordered, when F. the bishop of
London shall have signified to him by his letters patent that the testament
of Isabella de Aumbley has been lawfully proved before him, and that she has
left to Mabel the wife of Robert de Insula her corn sown in her dower land
in Nortun', and that he should not allow Walter son of Robert or others to
hinder Robert and Mabel from collecting the corn and disposing of it at
will.
[Calendar of Close Rolls 1251-1253, p. 239; 36 Henry III, m. 9d]
Perhaps there's another interpretation, but this suggests to me that
Isabella was the widow of Geoffrey de Ambely, and had left the corn on her
dower land to Mabel, her sister.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
I suppose another possibility is that the unnamed bride of Geoffrey de
Ambely is Mabel herself, and that Isabella is another member of the family
(perhaps Geoffrey's mother, for example, leaving something to her remarried
former daughter-in-law).
Chris Phillips
Jim Weber
Many thanks for your research in answering my concerns.
It certainly seems that Vol 14 was justified in its correction.
Perhaps Robert de Lisle's parents (Robert de Lisle & Alice FitzGerold)
were married much earlier than the date given by CP VIII:70 of "bef.
Feb 1239/40", which would make it reasonable that he would marry "bef.
1252" the widow of Hervey de Stafford, d. bef. 7 Oct 1241.
Jim Weber