My descent from Alexander the Great
Paul K Davis
In the same tradition, but with rather less certainty, I now present my
descent from Alexander the Great.
My paternal grandmother, Dorotha Ellen Repass, is descended from John
Price, who immigrated to Jamestown in 1611. As I have recently pointed
out, his paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Herbert, She is descended from
Sancha de Ayala as follows: her father was Richard Herbert [1470 - 1539],
whose mother was Margaret ferch Thomas, whose mother was Elsbeth Griffith,
whose father was John Griffith [- 1471], whose mother was Anne Blount,
whose mother was Sancha de Ayala [1360 - 1418].
Sancha may have several lines of descent from Abu Nazir of Maia, of which
one is through her mother, Ines de Ayala, whose father was Fernan Perez [-
1378], lord of Ayala, whose mother was Sancha Fernandez Barroso, whose
mother was Mencia de Sotomayor, whose father was Garcia de Sotomayor, whose
father was Pedro de Sotomayor, whose Alvaro de Sotomayor, whose father was
Pedro de Sotomayor, whose father was Alvaro de Sotomayor, whose mother was
Elvira de Lanhoso, whose mother was Ouroana de Ribadoura, whose father was
Mem de Ribadoura, whose father was Monio de Ribadoura, whose father was
Ermigio Viegas, whose mother was Toda Ermiges, whose father was Ermigio
Abunazar, who father was Abu Nazir of Maia. I have the first and last
parts of this lineage from reliable sources, but I have not yet confirmed
the middle part.
Recent discussion has shown it likely that Abu Nazir's paternal ancestry is
as follows: his father was Lovesendo, whose father was Fethe, whose father
was Abeth al-Hasani, whose father was probably the Idrissid, al-Hasan
al-Hajjam [880 - 926].
The Idrissids are descended from Fatima, daughter of Mohammed, as follows:
al-Hasan al-Hajjam's father was a Mohammed, whose father was al-Kassim,
whose father was Idris II [792 - 828], whose father was Idris I [- 792],
whose father was Abdullah, whose father was al-Hasan al-Muthanna, whose
father was al-Hasan [625 - 670], the caliph, whose mother was Fatima (the
"shining one").
Now according to Gibbon ("Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", chapter
51, note 39), al-Hasan had as one of his wives a daughter of Yazdegerd III
[- 651], the last Sasanian Persian emperor. She might therefore be the
mother of al-Hasan al-Muthanna.
Yazdegerd's father was Shahrihar, whose father was Khosrow II "Parviz" [-
628], whose father was Hormizd IV [- 590], whose father was Khosrow I
"Anushirvan" [- 579], whose father was Kavadh I [- 531], whose father was
Firuz [- 484], whose father was Yazdegerd II [- 457], whose father was
Bahram "Gor" [407 - 438], whose father was Yazdegerd I [- 420], whose
father was probably Bahram IV, whose father was Shapur II [309 - 379],
whose mother was a Kushan princess, daughter of king Vasudeva.
It seems to be uncertain how many Kushan kings were name Vasudeva, but the
grandfather or great grandfather of this Vasudeva was the son of a
Kanishka, whose father was a Vasudeva, whose father was Huvishka, whose
father was Kanishka the Great, whose father was Vema, whose mother was a
daughter of Hermaeus and Calliope. This I have from sources I have not yet
confirmed, as is the case with the following.
Calliope's father was Hippostratus, a king of west Gandara, whose father
was Strato, king of Mathura, whose mother was a daughter of Agathocles,
king of Bactria, whose mother was Sundari, a Mauryan princess. From her I
could trace back through Ashoka to Chandragupta, the contemporary and
admirer of Alexander the Great, but I think Alexander himself might be in
this ancestry. I believe all of Alexander's progeny who were within the
main area of his empire at his death were killed in the dynastic wars, but
the possibility remains of surviving progeny of liasons Alexander had in
India. I have read a report of his having a child by Cleophia or Kleophis,
a conquered queen in the Punjab. If an opportunity arose, I believe the
Mauryas would have married a descendent of Alexander the Great.
Sorry I can't show absolute proof.
Happy April First 2004.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd...@earthlink.net]
~Ford~
From: "Paul K Davis" <pkd...@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, 01 April, 2004 23:46
Subject: My descent from Alexander the Great
> whose father was Idris II [792 - 828], whose father was Idris I [- 792],
> whose father was Abdullah, whose father was al-Hasan al-Muthanna, whose
> father was al-Hasan [625 - 670], the caliph, whose mother was Fatima (the
> "shining one").
>
al-Hasan was Imam, not Caliph, (although his father, Ali, was).
> Now according to Gibbon ("Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", chapter
> 51, note 39), al-Hasan had as one of his wives a daughter of Yazdegerd III
> [- 651], the last Sasanian Persian emperor. She might therefore be the
> mother of al-Hasan al-Muthanna.
>
I haven't got Gibbon handy to consult, BUT it was al-Hasan's bro.,
al-Husain, who married the daughter of Yaz. III. And yet, al-Hasan
al-Muthana married the daughter of al-Husain & the Sasanid Prss.
Respectfully,
Ford, (NOT an APRIL fool)
Francisco Antonio Doria
I prefer the Maia connection: at least we have
documents to back it up...
fa
--- ~Ford~ <smomm...@earthlink.net> escreveu: >
______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - O melhor e-mail do Brasil! Abra sua conta agora:
http://br.yahoo.com/info/mail.html
Francisco Antonio Doria
Please wait for my book on the Maia family before
adding the Prophet to your own tree ;-)))
fa
--- Paul K Davis <pkd...@earthlink.net> escreveu: > A
______________________________________________________________________
Phil Moody
> I haven't got Gibbon handy to consult, BUT it was al-Hasan's bro.,
> al-Husain, who married the daughter of Yaz. III. And yet, al-Hasan
> al-Muthana married the daughter of al-Husain & the Sasanid Prss.
PLM: If you are referring to Edward Gibbon, Esq. - his _History Of The Decline
And Fall Of The Roman Empire_ is online. Here is Volume I:
http://www.cca.org/cm/rome/vol1/
A source worthy to add to a "reference section" on your Gen-Ancient web page -
me thinks:-) I really must find the time to read this smashing source
someday:-) But I believe I will save the entire reference to my hard drive
first - before the web site goes belly up and then be forced to purchase the
book (poor people have poor ways).
Cheers,
Phil
Nathaniel Taylor
pkd...@earthlink.net ("Paul K Davis") wrote:
> ... Sancha de Ayala [1360 - 1418].
>
> Sancha may have several lines of descent from Abu Nazir of Maia,
Well, we discussed one possible line here a while ago:
> of which one is through her mother,
<reformatted to show line>
> Ines de Ayala
> whose father was Fernan Perez [-1378], lord of Ayala
> whose mother was Sancha Fernandez Barroso,
> whose mother was Mencia de Sotomayor
> whose father was Garcia de Sotomayor
> whose father was Pedro de Sotomayor
> whose [father was] Alvaro de Sotomayor
> whose father was Pedro de Sotomayor
> whose father was Alvaro de Sotomayor
> whose mother was Elvira de Lanhoso
> whose mother was Ouroana de Ribadoura
> whose father was Mem de Ribadoura
> whose father was Monio de Ribadoura
> whose father was Ermigio Viegas
> whose mother was Toda Ermiges
> whose father was Ermigio Abunazar
> who father was Abu Nazir of Maia
> I have the first and last parts of this lineage from reliable sources,
> but I have not yet confirmed the middle part.
What are your sources for this descent of the Sotomayor?
Nat Taylor
~Ford~
understanding was that line which Paul presented was through said
connection?
Ford
Francisco Antonio Doria
Ford,
I do believe that the Maia connection is pretty sound.
However I'm concerned when people begin to stretch
their family lines through those links without the
much required footnotes that clarify each connection.
(And sometimes without adding doubts that might be
pertinent.)
chico
--- ~Ford~ <smomm...@earthlink.net> escreveu: >
Francisco Antonio Doria
Nat,
We once discussed (perhaps in pvt) this line and I
checked it with the help of Pizarro's recent treatise.
There definitely is a Maia descent for Sancha de
Ayala; I can look for it here in my files.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
escreveu: > In article
______________________________________________________________________
Nathaniel Taylor
franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote:
>
> Nat,
>
> We once discussed (perhaps in pvt) this line and I
> checked it with the help of Pizarro's recent treatise.
> There definitely is a Maia descent for Sancha de
> Ayala; I can look for it here in my files.
Indeed; and the on we hit upon is what I posted in 2002 and is archived
here:
(shortcut to google archive)
It is the Sotomayor descent from Ribadouro which I had not seen before.
Todd, what's your take on expanding Sotomayor behind Sancha?
Nat Taylor
Francisco Antonio Doria
Can someone please repost the Sotomaior line? I'll try
to check it.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
escreveu: > In article
______________________________________________________________________
Todd A. Farmerie
I think it has been too long since I looked at it to give an
intellegent answer. That being said, I guess I shouldn't duck
the issue entirely, so . . . .
I think the best (with least possibility of a confused connection
- I have some questions with the Acevedo link) Sancha descent
from the Maya is the one outlined in Feb 1998.
14.Sancha de Ayala m. Walter Blount
13.Ines Alfonso de Ayala m. Diego Gomes (de Toledo)
12.Fernan Perez de Ayala
11.Sancha Fernandez Barroso m. Pedro Lopez de Ayala
10.Fernan Perez Barroso
9.Pedro Gomes Barroso
8.Gomes Viegas de Basto
7.Egas Gomes de Basto/Barroso fl. 1169-83
6.Chamoa de Sousa m. Gomez Mendes Guedeo fl. 1121-30
5.Mem Viegas (de Sousa) fl.1094-1112
4.Gontinha de Maya m. Egas Gomes (de Sousa) fl. 1071-2
3.Gonzalo Trastamires fl.1134-38
2.Trastemiro Aboazar
1.Aboazar (Abunazar) Lovasendes
As to the Sotomayor descent:
> Ines de Ayala
> whose father was Fernan Perez [-1378], lord of Ayala
> whose mother was Sancha Fernandez Barroso,
> whose mother was Mencia de Sotomayor
> whose father was Garcia de Sotomayor
> whose father was Pedro de Sotomayor
> whose [father was] Alvaro de Sotomayor
> whose father was Pedro de Sotomayor
> whose father was Alvaro de Sotomayor
This may be an erroneous duplication (Pedro Alvaro/Pedro Alvaro).
That being said, it is the connection of Garcia Mendez de
Sotomayor being son of Alfonso Perez de Sotomayor that I always
found problematic. Obviously, it violates standard patronymics
(Garcia Mendez should be son of a Mendo/Menendo). It is possible
that this family abandonned the traditional naming system early
(as, for example, we found with the Carillo), but a look at the
traditional pedigree does not show an obvious source for the name
were it not inherited traditionally (there should then be another
Garcia Mendez earlier in the immediate family). Thus I had
considered the descent dubious from this point. Perhaps recent
work, such as the 1999 Pizarro book, has clarified the issue.
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
I checked the Portuguese side of the line given by Nat
(follows):
---------------------------
1. Abunazar Lovesendes (att. 978) = Unisco Godins.
Following the
theory propounded by Chico, he may be of Muslim
(Ummayad?) ancestry.
2. [Fromarico] 'Cide' Abunazar = NN
3. Toderedo Fromariques 'Cid' or Trutesendo Abunazar
(att. 1040 / 1070)
= Faregia Forjaz, d. of Froia [Froila, Fruela]
Osoredes (she att. 1069)
4. Ausenda [Adosinda] Todereis (att. 1092) = Nuno
Soares 'Velho', of
the Baião family.
5. Gontinha (att. 1108) = Paio Godins 'de Azevedo'
(br. of Baião
family).
6. Mendo Pais 'Roufino / Bofinho' (att. 1117, 1121) =
Sancha Pais (d. of
Paio Curvo or __ de Toronho).
7. Hermígio (Ermildo) Mendes 'de Azevedo' (att. 1121)
= Elvira Viegas
(dau. of an Egas Moniz?)
8. Pedro Hermiges de Azevedo (apparently = Velasquita
Rodrigues, d. of
Count Rodrigo Forjaz de Trastâmara, but not
necessarily mother of:).
9. Fernão Pires de Azevedo = ??
10. Châmoa Fernandes de Azevedo = Pero Gomes Barroso,
the troubadour,
attested in the repartimiento of Seville (1248); held
land in Toledo
extant corpus of 12 poems in the Galician-Portuguese
tradition.
11. Fernán Pérez Barroso (called lord of Parla in one
source; said by
Fernan Perez de Ayala, no. 13, to have 'received all
the inheritance of
Azevedo'); courtier of kings Sancho IV & Fernando IV)
= Mencia García
de Sotomayor, dau. of Garci Melendez de Sotomayor &
Ines 'la gorda' (de
Saavedra).
12. Sancha Fernández Barroso (sister of Cardinal Pero
Gomes Barroso) =
Pero López de Ayala II (d. soon after Feb 1331),
adelantado mayor del
reino de Murcia, lord of the city of Cartagena,
retainer and household
official of D. Juan Manuel (cousin of the king,
intriguer and writer).
13. Fernán Peréz de Ayala (b. Toledo, 1305; became
lord of Ayala, 1332;
d. 15 October 1385 at Vitoria or Quejana; bd.
Quejana), adelantado major
del reino de Murcia, etc., merino mayor of Asturias;
d. as Dominican
friar at Vitoria; = Elvira Alvarez de Ceballos (d. 3
Aug 1372; bd. at
Quejana), sister and heiress of Díaz Gutiérrez, master
of the Order of
Alcantara, who was killed by order of King Pedro I in
136. Children
include:
[14. Pero López de Ayala III (1332-1407), diplomat,
grand chancellor of
Castile, and one of the three leading Castilian
writers of his century;
= Leonor de Guzmán, with many descendants, beginning
with the condes de
Fuensalida. And also his eldest sister:]
14. Inés de Ayala (eldest of 8 daughters; b. say 1330;
will 1403 and
prob. d. soon after) = Diego Gómez, lord of
Casarrubios del Monte
(Toledo); kt. of the Orden de la Banda; notario mayor
del reino de
Toledo (1351), alcalde major de Toledo (1360s,
successively for rivals
Pedro I & Enrique II), d. betw. 1373 and 29 Mar 1375.
His palace in
Toledo survives as the Dominican convent of Santa
Isabel. Children
include:
[15. Pedro Suárez (III) de Toledo, d. at battle of
Aljubarrota 13 August
1385 (his sculpted armorial tomb, probably from Santa
Isabel at Toledo,
is at the Museu Fredric Marès in Barcelona) = Juana de
Orozco; from whom
descends Fernán II & V, King of Spain, etc. And also
his eldest sister:]
15. Sancha de Ayala (eldest of 5 daughters, b. say
1350); went to
England in 1371 in the train of Constance of Castile,
wife of John of
Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster & pretender to Castile;
married by 1373; d.
testate in 1418 = Sir Walter Blount (1348-1403),
retainer and trusted
official of John of Gaunt (and later of Henry
Bolingbroke, King Henry
IV); participant in French and Spanish campaigns;
several times on
diplomatic missions in Castile, Aragon & Portugal;
killed at Battle of
Shrewsbury (see CP 9:333, s.n. 'Mountjoy').
Innumerable descendants in England (including the
Queen, in two lines,
and the Princes William and Harry, via two others: see
Paget), and
several descendants among 17th-century American
colonists, including:
Lawrence and John Washington
Roger, Thomas and John Ludlow; Sarah (Ludlow) Carter
Elder William Wentworth
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson & Katherine (Marbury) Scott
Christopher Lawson
Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis
Robert Abell
Governor Thomas Dudley
Nat Taylor
--------------------------------------------------
Each link in it can be documented, so it is quite safe
- as safe as something so far away can be trusted.
For the Sotomaior connection below, it looks
suspicious to me.
fa
-----------------------------------------------------
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
______________________________________________________________________
L Mahler
> A couple of years ago on this date I presented my descent from King Arthur.
> In the same tradition, but with rather less certainty, I now present my
> descent from Alexander the Great.
>
> My paternal grandmother, Dorotha Ellen Repass, is descended from John
> Price, who immigrated to Jamestown in 1611. As I have recently pointed
> out, his paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Herbert
Regarding this connection -
The name John Price was VERY COMMON in England at that time, and could
be found in many regions.
Some examples from wills proved in the Commissary Court of London,
London Division, volume 28 (which covers the period from 1621 to
1625):
Joan Bowman of South Mimms, Middlesex - her will was proved by her
cousin John Price of North Mimms, co. Hertford.
The will of Michael Johnson of Limehouse, Middlesex, mariner -
mentions a brother in law John Price.
The volume following that, which covers 1625 to 1629 includes:
The will of William Atkins, citizen and grocer of London, who had a
brother in law John Price citizen and merchantaylor of London.
Similar examples could certainly be found in Wales, and counties in
the west of England.
Leslie
Gary Smith
---Gary, 27th Duke of Normandy
""Paul K Davis"" <pkd...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-220044...@earthlink.net...
Douglas Richardson
Bringing up the topic of Sancha de Ayala brings us to another
interesting twist in the discovery of Sir Richard Pole's first
marriage to Alice (Langford) Stradling. From studying various
published sources and looking at the newsgroup archives, it appears
that Alice Langford was the daughter of Edward Langford, of Bradfield,
Berkshire, by his wife, Sanche, daughter of Sir Thomas Blount. If so,
then Alice Langford would be a great-granddaughter of Sancha de Ayala,
wife of Sir Walter Blount. I must add that these various connections
need further verification.
The colonial immigrant, Jeremy Clarke, of Rhode Island descends from
Alice Langford's 1st marriage to John Stradling as follows:
l. Alice Langford, married (1st) John Stradling (died 1471), of
Dauntsey, Wiltshire; (2nd) before 1483 Sir Richard Pole, of Isleworth,
Middlesex and Medmenham, Buckinghamshire.
2. Anne Stradling, married 1487 John Danvers.
3. Anne Danvers, married Thomas Lovett.
4. Elizabeth Lovett, married Anthony Cave.
5. Mary Cave, married Jerome Weston.
6. Mary Weston, married William Clarke.
7. Jeremy Clarke (died 1651), immigrant to Newport, Rhode Island.
Also, it appears that several other immigrants likewise have a
Langford connection through the Dineley family, they being:
St. Leger Codd, Warham Horsmanden, Katherine (Saint Leger)
Culpeper.
Perhaps Kevan Barton and others interested in the Blount and Langford
families can weigh in on this matter.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
pkd...@earthlink.net ("Paul K Davis") wrote in message news:<410-220044...@earthlink.net>...
Gordon Kirkemo
I would be very interested in seeing the connection between the Langfords
and Warham Horsemanden that you cited below. I have:
...1. Thomas Dinley
...2. Elizabeth Dinley (_-<1583) married Sir John Baker, a former Speaker
of the House of Commons.
...3. Elizabeth Baker who married Sir Thomas Scott (son of Reynold and
Emelyn (Kempe) Scott) of Scot's Hall.
...4. Mary Scott (_-1638) who married Sir Anthony St. Leger (d. 19 Dec
1603) son of Warham and Ursula (Neville) St. Leger.
...5. Sir Warham St. Leger (d. 11 Oct 1631) who married Mary Hayward,
daughter of Roland Hayward and Katherine Smythe.
...6. Ursula St. Leger (1609-1672) who married Daniel Horsemanden
(1583/84-1655), son of Richard Horsemanden and (?).
...7. Warham Horsemanden (1628-1691) who married Susanna Beeching.
Key sources include:
* "Plantagenet Ancestry" by David Faris.
* "Burkes Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies of England, Ireland and Scotland,"
by John Russell Smith.
* Archive posting on 11/18/98 by Adrian Channing.
If this is the Warham Horsemanden (#7) you cite, I would very much like to
see how the Langfords connect. I would also welcome any
corrections/additions needed to the line.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
Dear Paul ~
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
<snip>
Douglas Richardson
The connection between the Dineley and Langford families can be found
in a pedigree of the Dineley family published in the following source:
Misc. Gen. et Her. 5th Ser. 6 (1926): 82.
The pedigree appears to be accurate in the points which have permitted
verification. Given the information you already possess, you should
be able to readily make the connection between this pedigree and
Warham Horsmanden.
For those interested in the ancestry of Alice (Langford) (Stradling)
Pole, they can find the ancestry of her mother, Sanche Blount, in
chart form at the following website:
http://www.smokykin.com/ged/f004/f46/a0044663.htm
This site traces Sanche Blount's extended ancestry, including that of
her paternal grandmother, Sancha de Ayala. I'd be interested in
hearing from the Sancha da Ayala "aficionados" regarding the accuracy
of this information.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
kir...@comcast.net ("Gordon Kirkemo") wrote in message news:<JNEBIPBDPPDCGBKMKH...@comcast.net>...
Douglas Richardson
Wedgwood's biography of Alice (Langford) (Stradling) Pole's father,
Edward Langford, of Bradfield, Berkshire, indicates that he was styled
"cousin" by Joan de la Pole (died 1494), wife of Thomas Stonor, Esq.,
of Stonor (in Pyrton), Oxfordshire, and illegitimate daughter of
William de la Pole, Duke, Marquess and Earl of Suffolk [Reference:
J.C. Wedgwood, Hist. of Parliament 1 (1936): 553 (biog. of Edward
Longford)].
Today I checked the book, Stonor, by R.J. Stonor, 2nd edition,
published in 1952. On page 131, a letter of Joan (de la Pole) Stonor
dated 1463 is quoted in which she mentions her cousin Langford's son.
I presume Wedgwood has correctly identified Joan Stonor's "cousin"
Langford as Edward Langford. If so, it would suggest that Alice
Langford, wife of John Stradling and Sir Richard Pole, has something
else interesting located in her ancestry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.04040...@posting.google.com>...