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Family of Cecily, mother of William d'Avranches,d 1230
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janette...@talk21.com
Mar 13, 2017, 1:43:12 PM3/13/17
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Cecily d'Avranches is usually shown as a member of the Criol family, possibly daughter of John de Criol and his wife Margery, and her grant of the manor of Sutton to the abbey of Robertsbridge c 1216-20 is well documented, but exhaustive searches have not resulted in any Sutton in Kent, Sussex or Surrey that is associated with the Criol family and was alienated at that time. However, there is evidence that strongly suggests that Cecily was the daughter of Beatrice de Fraxineto, who carried Sutton near Seaford in marriage to her husband Simon son of Simon son of Peter de Brixworth. This descent, which was alluded to in passing by Farrer, is constructed by study of charters relating to land holdings in Sutton near Seaford, and gives the following:-
Adam de Poynings d c 1146/7
+ Beatrice d aft. 1146/7
Aubrey de Poynings
+ William de Querceto, Caysneto, Chesney d c 1146/7
+ Roger de Fraxineto d by 1166
Beatrice de Fraxineto, m by 1166
+ Simon son of Simon de Brixworth
Cecily de Brixworth d c1220
+ Simon d'Avranches d 1203
William d'Avranches d 1230
Keats-Rohan has remarked on the fact that the charters of the Priory of St Pancras at Lewes have not yet been accurately dated, which may be the reason that they have not appeared on-line, but an important resource from the Sussex Record Society is now available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/A13531661
under 179 - East Sussex Record Office SAS-M/1/331 and SAS-M/1/671.
This is a 17th century quarto book of copies of deeds, the 331 classification covering a number of charters dealing with Sutton by Seaford which have for this catalogue been given alphabetical designations rather than numbers sequential to 331 as in the original. 671 covers short reports of further grants to Robertsbridge Abbey. The reliability of both 'original' charters, which are known to be contemporaneous or later forgeries, and of secondary sources such as this must be borne in mind, as must the fact of scribal error. The first in the 331 classification is a Memo where the scribe has confused Cecily's husband with her son, and called them both William, but the body of the grants themselves bear enough weight to be credible.
Sutton
Sutton 'by Seaford' is in Pevensey Rape in East Sussex, between Newhaven and Eastbourne and is so called to distinguish it from the Sutton in West Sussex close to Petworth in Arundel Rape, which was also the subject of grants to Lewes Priory. There is no mention of Seaford or Sutton in the Domesday Book; the nearest named communities in the same hundred, that of Flexborough, are Bishopstone some 1½ miles to the west and Frog Firle two miles from Sutton and three from Seaford to the north east, on the west bank of the River Cuckmere. Exceat and West Dean are 1½ and two miles respectively to the east, over the river in Willingdon hundred. Sutton by Seaford may be the ½ hide and 1½ virgates that belonged to the manors of Ratton, Willingdon and Frog Firle listed as held by Reinbert; Farrer suggests that Seaford might have been part of Willingdon's 50½ hides or of Exceat's 7 hides.
Rainbert de Sutton
The first mention is in the charter of King Stephen c 1142 confirming the gifts to the 'monastery of St Pancras' since its foundation in 1078-1082 by William I Earl Warenne, which included 'the land of “Saford” which Rainbert de Suthtona gave'.
Later the grant of 'the land of Sefforda' that his father Reimbert 'long before gave' was confirmed by Alan son of Reimbert with the consent of William his son and heir, for the soul of Reimbert his father, and Albrea his mother, witnessed by Robert Pincerna, Simon son of Drew, Richard de Chaanes, William de Droseye, Ralph the porter, Robert.
In a further charterxv, confirmed by William his son, Alan granted Turgot of Sutton and his lands to the monks for 10 marks of silver, witnessed by Robert Pincerna, Robert Francesco, Ralf Walensis.
Poynings
Between 1138 and 1147 William 3rd Earl de Warenne confirmed the grants of the churches of Poynings and Pangdean and 12 solidates of land and 5 messuages in Lewes by Adam and Beatrice and Adam their son, witnessed by Robert de Wesneval [a Warenne tenant in Norfolk], John de Chaineto, Richard de Morevill and William de Petrapont.
This grant was confirmed in a post-1164 charter of Adam son of Adam de Poynings where the witnesses included Hamelin, Earl de Warenne, Aubrey de Querceto my sister, Simon son of Simon and William son of Simon.
In another charter Aubrey de Querceto witnessed her brother Adam's grant to St Pancras of all the tithes of his cheeses from his sheepfolds of Poynings and Pangdean for the soul of their mother Beatrice, which was also witnessed by Hamelin Earl de Warenne and Isabel the Countess and William son of Simon among others.
These identify Aubrey de Querceto as Aubrey de Poynings; her role as witness in her own right suggests she was a widow at that time.
William de Caineto
Around 1142/7 William de Caineto witnessed a charter of William 3rd Earl de Warenne with Robert de Wendesuals, Ralph de Pleiz, John de Poynings, Robert de Freville and Drogo his brother.
William de Kaysneto and Aubrey his wife granted land in 'Wilanesdena' to support an altar set up in memory of John de Poynings, in a charter witnessed by Richard de Belmes, Philip de Kaysnetoxxiv, Adam de Puningis and Walchelin the clerk.
It would seem that John died shortly before his father Adam; John was commemorated by his brothers William and Adam, sons of Beatrice de Punningiis, by the gift of 10s from the mill at Poynings in a charter confirmed by William Earl de Warenne, witnessed by John de Kaisneto, William de Droseto, Edwin the priest of Lewes.
The fact that John de Kaisneto became involved in Poynings family affairs to witness this charter of Earl Warenne, rather than William, suggests that William had also died in the meantime; John was the son of Ralf, son of Ralf [fl.1086] and Maud, giving the lands of his father Ralf in Brighton to St Pancras in two charters, the first witnessed by Robert de Freville and Robert and Drogo his sons, the later of them in 1147 witnessed by Robert de Freville and Drogo de Freville alone. John was also the nephew of the William de Querceto who 'gave the churches of St Peter and St Mary at Rudham, Norfolk for the establishment of a priory of canons, afterwards known as Coxford Priory' quoting SAC LVX p23, for 'the souls of Ralph my brother and all my brothers and sisters' referring also to 'my nephew John'. John de Querceto is considered the founder of Coxford Priory in grants, for the souls of Ralf his grandfather and William his uncle, which are dated by witnesses to 1146-49.
This gives a time line in which John de Poynings, Adam his father and William de Querceto all died before William 3rd Earl de Warenne left on crusade in June 1147. This suggests that Aubrey's first husband may have been William, son of Ralf de Caisned, the Domesday holder in Norfolk and Sussex and his wife Maud, or possibly a previously unrecognised son of John de Kaisneto, but almost certainly not William son of Roger de Chesney and Alice de Langetot as Salzmann argued.
Evidentially, it would seem that Aubrey de Cheney/Querceto nee Poynings was a widow c1147. Later in the century Albreda de Querceto is found involved in land in Sutton; her interest in Sutton and the witnesses to charters indicate that she married as her second husband Roger de Fraxineto, probably carrying the 2 fees in Sutton as her marriage portion. As such she was the mother of Beatrice, who similarly carried them to Simon son
of Simon son of Peter de Brixworth.
Roger de Fraxineto [Fraisnai or Fresnay], the King's Constable, witnessed numerous charters of Stephen, including three at Lewes after January 1148xxx He held lands in Holt and Letheringsett in Norfolk of the Honour of Curcy, and he appears in Seaford in 1147/8 when he gave to Lewes priory 'all his land of Sefforde', and 'if he could not warrant it he and his brothers Alan and Gervase, Rualan and William swear and affirm that I will give them an exchange out of my inheritance to the value which the said land of Sefforde had on the Whitsunday before the departure of the King of France for Jerusalem'.
Around the same time, Roger witnessed the gift of William Malfet [son-in-law of Robert Pincerna] against 20 marks from the monks towards his ransom when he was captured at Pevensey [1147], along with Robert Pincerna,Philip de Folkington and Ranulph the porter among others; and two more charters of William Malfet's have the same witnesses with Robert the Frenchman/Robert Franceis in addition.
Roger also gave the tithes of his demesne in Seaford, 3 acres and the 'gore' in Seaford to the Abbey of Grestain for Wilmington priory,xxxiv which he was careful to exclude from his grants when he founded a Hospital for lepers in Seaford between 1157 and 1162/4. The charter of the foundation grants, xxxv was made on the day that Hilary, Bishop of Chichester [1147-69] consecrated their church; 'Roger's wife Albreda and his daughter joined in all these grants'. Witnesses: Master John, Dean of Chichester , Master Jordan, Henry the Archdeacon, Guy the priest of Bishopston, Peter the chaplain of Seaford, Ralph the clerk of Saford, Pagan of Blachington. Robert de Denton, Adam de Puningis, Bartholomew de Querceto, Robert Peverell and many other clerks and laymen'.
A further charter granting 7 acres of land to the chaplain of the lepers, with the same ecclesiastical witnesses, names Roger's wife Albreda and daughter Beatrice in concurrence.
Although undated, the witness lists place the charters between 1157 and 1162/4. Hilary was Bishop of Chichester 1147-1169, Master John, Dean of Chichester occurs 1157-1173, Master Jordan occurs 1154-62/4 and Henry the Archdeacon occurs 1154/7-after 1172, so if Beatrice was old enough to give her assent, she must have been born not later than 1150/2. The inclusion of Adam de Poynings and Bartholomew de Querceto as witnesses to the major grant substantiates the suggestion that Roger's wife Albreda is Aubrey de Querceto nee Poynings.
Farrer reports 'In 1159 Roger de Fresnay accounted for an amercement of 20 marks in Norfolk and Suffolk. He paid 5 marks and owed £10, but the latter charge does not appear in the roll of the following year. The carta of William de Curcy the sewer, returned in 1166, states that '(Simon) son of Simon son of Peter who has the daughter of Roger de Fresnay holds the fee of 4 knights.'
These were Holt and Letheringsett in Norfolk, and two fees in Sutton, Sussex. If Roger were indeed dead in or shortly after 1160, as this suggests, then Beatrice may have been born in 1148, to have given her consent to the grants.
Simon son of Simon succeeded his father Simon son of Peter shortly after 1171, when he held 2½ fees in Brixworth, 1 in Holcote and Orlingbury and Harrowden, Northants and 5 in Holt, Cley and Bayfield, Norfolk, as well as the 2 fees he held of William Curcy that Beatrice had brought. The 7 fees in Norfolk comprised the largest area of influence of the combined holding, and it would not be suprising if members of the family started to use the designator 'de Holt/Hoult/Houlte/Hout/Hod'. William de Holte and Thomas de Holt feature in several charters concerning Sutton, while Thomas de Hoult and William his brother, and Thomas de Hoult and William his son appear in Robertsbridge Abbey charters witnessing a series of grants by Adam de Cobbeford [Copford in Waldron]. Whether these are of the Brixworth family is at present unproven; similarly, the William son of Simon and Thomas son of Simon who witness Sutton charters maybe sons or brothers of the Simon de Brixworh who married Beatrice, or sons of Simon de Echingham. However,it is noticeable that the Robertsbridge grants are concerning holdings of the Maufe/Malfet family; William Maufe was son in law to Robert pincerna, who also held lands in Sutton by Seaford.
Probably around 1160, an exchange was made between Aubrey de Cainetoxxxviii and the church of St Pancras, whereby she and her heirs received 'the messuage that was of Reimbert and Alan his son in Suttona', and Aubrey gave the church 1] the messuage next to Turgot's messuage, 2] a messuage next to the first, which Brichsi held, and 3] one perch of land in Waletuna on the south side of the 8 acres of the Lady Aubrey. 'Simon son of Simon and
Beatrice his wife granted it and confirmed it'. Witnesses included Payn the clerk, William de Orlauston, William de Holte, and Turgot de Sunttun.
Aubrey/Albreda meanwhile retained land in Sutton held of Simon son of Simon, probably as her dower, and was an active landowner after the death of her husband. The following grants are from the 17th century copybook. The suggested date for (b)seems rather late; an Anselm de Glanville occurs, whose father William [d1170] married Beatrice de Sackville. The agreement that was made in the time of Seffrid II [Bishop of Chichester,1180-1202 may be thought to be after the death of Albreda.
(b) Undated, c1200
Grant by ALBREDA DE QUERCETO to JOHN son of THUREBERNE of 2 ac. of land in the vill of Sutton called del Ellen'
Witnesses:--Adam de Puninges, Thomas son of Simon, Moris de Audele, William de Holt, Henry de Secoheford, Anselm de Glanvilla, Hubert de Vallis
(e) Undated. [1180 x 1204]
Composition between Master EDMUND, Canon of Chichester, and the LEPERS of St. James of Saford about the tithes of new cultivations from the demesne pastures of Sutton, whereby, with the assent of the Chapter of Chichester and of Simon son of Simon, lord of Sutton, and Beatrice his wife, Master Edmund was to have a moiety of the tithes of new cultures by Lady Albreda de Cheney after the death of her husband and of future new cultivations, the lepers to have the other moiety; and of 6s. which the Canon used to receive yearly, Edmund to have one half and the lepers the other
Made before Seffrid II., Bishop of Chichester, and the whole Chapter of Chichester and the said Simon son of Simon. Witnesses:--Walter, William, and Stephen, chaplains, William Ruffus, William de Petevill
It was quite common for a widow to retain the surname of her first husband if he were of higher status than her second. While Roger de Fraxineto was a man of some importance as Constable to King Stephen, within Sussex society the Chesney family was one of the largest landholders, and maintaining her place in that extended family would confer a continuing status on her.
Albreda's interest in the lands of Reinbert suggest that her mother Beatrice de Poynings may have been the daughter of Reinbert and Albreda; Albreda de Poynings being named for her grandmother, just as Beatrice de Fraxineto was named for hers.
The sequence of grants in the notebook shows a continuing concern with the land of Brixi, which was held in the time of Aubrey.
(j) Undated. [c1200]
Grant by CECILIA DE ABRINCIIS to SIMON DE SACFORT of lands in Sutton as follows:--7 ac. in Boggedene at the head of Wulwineslinche on the east; 2 ac. in the bottom of the valley in Waltune; 1 ac. at Crokeredic; 4 ac. 1 r. which Brixi the shepherd held; 1 ac. 1 r. on Winterdune which William de Hout held and 1½ ac. for building upon between the monks' court and land of Richard de Frist; also pasture which belongs to half a virgate in the common pasture. Rent 1 lb. of cummin and the service of 1/20th of one knight
Witnesses:--Stephen of Chichester, Ralph the chaplain of Saford, Harding de Saford, John the chaplain of the Hospital, Master Alvered de Saford who wrote the charter
(n) Undated, c1215
Grant by CECILY DE AVERENCHES in widowhood, with the assent of her son, William, to the ABBOT and MONKS OF ROBERTSBRIDGE of her capital messuage with demesne cultures in Sutton next Seford and all pasturages of the manor and 9½ ac. of meadow in the same manor and the dene which is called Omble
Witnesses:--William, Earl of Warrenne, William, 3rd Earl of Sussex, Gilbert de Aquila, Simon de Echingham, William his brother, William de Munceaus, Richard de Cumbe, William Gulafre, Walter de Denne, Reginald Giffart
(q) Undated, c1215
Grant by WILLIAM AVERENCHES to the MONKS of ROBERTSBRIDGE of the Alms which Cecily his mother gave in Sutton
Witnesses:--William, Earl of Warrenne, William de Aubeneis, 3rd Earl of Sussex, Gilbert de Aquila, Simon de Echingham, William his brother, William de Munceaus, Richard de Cumbe, William Gulafre, Walter de Denne, Reginald Giffart, Robert Fitz Alan, Helia Folehit
(v) Undated, c1215
Grant by CECILY DE AVERENCHIIS in widowhood, with the assent of WILLIAM DE AVERENCHIIS her son & heir, to the ABBOT & MONKS OF ROBERTSBRIDGE of the whole tenement and all right which she had in the manor of Sutton next Seaford except the alms which she had granted to them, in fee farm at the yearly rent of 100s. For this donation the Abbot and Monks gave the said Cecily 700 marks of silver for the delivery and release of her son William, from the prison of King John of England
Witnesses:--Simon de Echingham, William his brother, William de Munceuse, Richard de Cumbe, William Gulafre, William de Richardville, Master Ralph de Essebi, Walter de Denn, Robert Fitz Alan, Helia Foleth
(s) Undated, c1215
Grant by WILLIAM DE AVERENCHES confirming his mother's grant of the manor of Sutton. Witnesses, as in last charter
The charter that appears in the Robertsbridge Abbey calendar reiterates that in the notebook,SAS/M1/331 (j), if the substitution of 'L' for 'S' is recognised as a scribal or translation error. Seckford in Suffolk was held at a later date by the Sackville family, who were active in Sussex at this date. There also a number of de Abrincis witnesses who do not appear on the usual descents.
121 William de Abrincis to Simon de Lacford.
Confirmation in fee for his homage and service, of the grant made him, by Cecily the said William's mother, of 20 1/2 acres of land in the vill of Suttune, viz: i acre abutting on Wlwineslinke towards the east in Bogedene, 2 acres lying in the bottom of the valley in Waletune, i acre at Crokeredie, 4 acres and i rod which Brixi Shepherd {Bercarius) held, i acre and i rod above Winterdune which William de Hout held, 1 1/2 rods for building on, between the monks' court and the land of Richard de Fristune, and pasture on the common as much as belongs to half a virgate ; the whole to be held by the service of 1/20 part of a knight's fee. Witnesses: Thomas de Abrincis, Geoffrey de Esseteford, Lambinus de Esseteford, Simon de Abrincis, Geoffrey de Abrincis, Roger Talun, Geoffrey de Gesteling, Robert de Hucham, Alexander ......
Seal round, 2 inches, in fine preservation. Knight on horse at full speed, with sword, helmet, and shield. Legend, ' Sigill: Will: de Averenches.'
Calendar of charters and documents relating to the Abbey of Robertsbridge co: Sussex : reserved at Penshurst among the muniments of lord De Lisle and Dudley https://archive.org/details/calendarofcharte00lond
This is the charter quoted by Farrah also from Robertsbridge:
183. Inter Johem. Abbatem de Ponte Roberti quer' et Ceciliam de Au'enches imped':—De manerio de Sutton; unde placitum warantie carte sum' fuit inter eos:—Cecilia recognovit &c., tenendum in liberam et perpetuam elemosinam reddendo centum sol' apud Sutton ad duos terminos scil' med' infra Oct' Pasch et aliam med' infra Oct' Sci. Michis. et faciendo servicium duorum militum pro omni servicio:—Pro hoc fine Abbas pro se et succ' suis remisit et quietam clamavit Ceciliam et heredes suos de omnibus dampnis que dicebat se habere per defectum warantie Cecilie; et Abbas recepit Ceciliam et heredes suos in singulis beneficiis et orationibus que fient decetero in ecclesia de ponte Roberti.
[Dorso] Sim. fil' Simonis de Hod apponit clamium suum in predicto servicio duorum militum ut in illo manerio quod pater suus dedit in maritagio cum predicta Cecilia. [7° Henry III. Westm' A. die Sci. Mich' in tres sept.' (File 7. No. 10).]
'Sussex Fines: 6-10 Henry III (nos. 172-201)', in An Abstract of Feet of Fines For the County of Sussex: Vol. 1, 1190-1248, ed. L F Salzmann (Lewes, 1903), pp. 44-55 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol1/pp44-55
Dene family interest in Sutton
Ralph de Dene confirmed his father Robert Pincerna's grants, with Robert the Frenchman and Geoffrey de Gatton, Simon the Steward, and Ranulf the porter among the witnesses [c 1160]. This is followed by a charter of Thomas son of Robert the Frenchman of land before the gate of Edwin de la Felde witnessed by Pagan clerk of Blachington, John Chudinet, Ralf de Dene, Geoffrey of Gatton, Miles de Harmere, William de Hoult, Hugh son of Robert the Frenchman etc., which was confirmed by Ralf de Dene with the same witnesses,but also including Thomas son of Robert French['Francigene']
That these relate to Sutton is shown partly by the presence of Payn/Pagan the clerk of Blatchington [between Sutton and Bishopstone, one of the witnesses to the grants to the lepers of Seaford [see above, and also by William de Hoult, who appears frequently in matters relating to Sutton. Later references to Gilbert le Fronke and his wife Cristin Holt, daughter of Thomas Holt, and Robert le Franke their son, may be the heirs of Thomas son of Robert the Frenchman.
How the Dene family held in Sutton is not clear, but their interest would seem to have been granted to Maud de Cheney, whose first husband was Robert Pincerna. Her heir Warin fitz Gerold made over his rights in Sutton to Robertsbridge Abbey at the insistance of Cecily d'Avranches.
SAS/M1 671(m) Warin son of Gerold, at the instance of Cecily de Averenches and William her son, the manor of Sutton near Seford to hold of them and their heirs saving the service of two knights.
See Farrah HFK vol 1 p108
'After the death of her first husband in 1193, Alice de Curcy married Warin Fitz-Gerold, who held the honor of Curcy in 1212 in her right. We find evidence of this in the Inquest of Service,made in 1212, as follows : In Somerset, ' Warin Fitz Gcrold holds Stoke'; and again,'Warin Fitz-Gerold holds Wootton, and it is of his barony of Stoke Curcy'; in Sussex,' Warin Fitz-Gerold 2 knights' fees (in Sutton), but it is not known by what service';'.
Arthur Collin's Peerage [1768] Vol 2, p 263, mentions among the marriage portion given to Ela, daughter of Ralph de Dene 'the land that Robert Fraunceis held of Sutton's fee'.
Ancient deeds A. 4221. Release by Ela, daughter of Ralph de Dene, widow, to the monks of Lewes, of land in Alvrichest' (Alfriston) and Saford, on condition that they pay to the canons of Occheham the yearly service of 8 lbs. of wax and 1 lb. of pepper, which Folcred de Lewes paid to her father for the said lands. Witnesses:—William de Chaines, sheriff of Sussex, Richard de Essete, Richard de la Cumbe, Reinald de Cliftona, and others (named) [7–10 John.] Seal, broken.
Further evidence of Dene involvement in Sutton is shown in this fine:
263. Inter Sibillam de Iklesham pet' et Robm. de Dene ten':—De feodo unius militis et quarta parte feodi unius militis in Dene Waudern Sutton Withiham et Willendon; unde placitum fuit inter eos:—Robs. recognovit &c:—Pro hoc fine Sibilla concessit Robto. totum predictum feodum tenendum Robto. tota vita sua faciendo cap' dominis &c; et post decessum Robti. feodum revertetur ad Sibillam et heredes suos: Et preterea Sibilla concessit quod Abbas de Begeham et successores sui habeant totum tenementum quod habent de dono Sibille matris ipsius Robti. et de dono Robti. tota vita Robti. sine clamio quod Sibilla vel heredes sui apponere possint in vita Roberti. [14° Henry III. Westm' A die Sci. Mich. in v. Sept'. (File 8. No. 5).
'Sussex Fines: 11-15 Henry III (nos. 202-268)', in An Abstract of Feet of Fines For the County of Sussex: Vol. 1, 1190-1248, ed. L F Salzmann (Lewes, 1903), pp. 55-73 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol1/pp55-73
I hope that this will be of interest, and adequately argued to provide an acceptable descent for Cecily d'Avranches from Adam de Poynings [dc 1146/7]. The work on the Dene family is purely to distinguish this Sutton from the many other Suttons in Sussex, Kent and further afield.
Best wishes
Janette Gallini
I have not been able to paste in the endnotes for some reason. If anyone is interested I can send the document fully formatted and referenced as an attachment to an email, but can't do pdf's.
Adam de Poynings d c 1146/7
+ Beatrice d aft. 1146/7
Aubrey de Poynings
+ William de Querceto, Caysneto, Chesney d c 1146/7
+ Roger de Fraxineto d by 1166
Beatrice de Fraxineto, m by 1166
+ Simon son of Simon de Brixworth
Cecily de Brixworth d c1220
+ Simon d'Avranches d 1203
William d'Avranches d 1230
Keats-Rohan has remarked on the fact that the charters of the Priory of St Pancras at Lewes have not yet been accurately dated, which may be the reason that they have not appeared on-line, but an important resource from the Sussex Record Society is now available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/A13531661
under 179 - East Sussex Record Office SAS-M/1/331 and SAS-M/1/671.
This is a 17th century quarto book of copies of deeds, the 331 classification covering a number of charters dealing with Sutton by Seaford which have for this catalogue been given alphabetical designations rather than numbers sequential to 331 as in the original. 671 covers short reports of further grants to Robertsbridge Abbey. The reliability of both 'original' charters, which are known to be contemporaneous or later forgeries, and of secondary sources such as this must be borne in mind, as must the fact of scribal error. The first in the 331 classification is a Memo where the scribe has confused Cecily's husband with her son, and called them both William, but the body of the grants themselves bear enough weight to be credible.
Sutton
Sutton 'by Seaford' is in Pevensey Rape in East Sussex, between Newhaven and Eastbourne and is so called to distinguish it from the Sutton in West Sussex close to Petworth in Arundel Rape, which was also the subject of grants to Lewes Priory. There is no mention of Seaford or Sutton in the Domesday Book; the nearest named communities in the same hundred, that of Flexborough, are Bishopstone some 1½ miles to the west and Frog Firle two miles from Sutton and three from Seaford to the north east, on the west bank of the River Cuckmere. Exceat and West Dean are 1½ and two miles respectively to the east, over the river in Willingdon hundred. Sutton by Seaford may be the ½ hide and 1½ virgates that belonged to the manors of Ratton, Willingdon and Frog Firle listed as held by Reinbert; Farrer suggests that Seaford might have been part of Willingdon's 50½ hides or of Exceat's 7 hides.
Rainbert de Sutton
The first mention is in the charter of King Stephen c 1142 confirming the gifts to the 'monastery of St Pancras' since its foundation in 1078-1082 by William I Earl Warenne, which included 'the land of “Saford” which Rainbert de Suthtona gave'.
Later the grant of 'the land of Sefforda' that his father Reimbert 'long before gave' was confirmed by Alan son of Reimbert with the consent of William his son and heir, for the soul of Reimbert his father, and Albrea his mother, witnessed by Robert Pincerna, Simon son of Drew, Richard de Chaanes, William de Droseye, Ralph the porter, Robert.
In a further charterxv, confirmed by William his son, Alan granted Turgot of Sutton and his lands to the monks for 10 marks of silver, witnessed by Robert Pincerna, Robert Francesco, Ralf Walensis.
Poynings
Between 1138 and 1147 William 3rd Earl de Warenne confirmed the grants of the churches of Poynings and Pangdean and 12 solidates of land and 5 messuages in Lewes by Adam and Beatrice and Adam their son, witnessed by Robert de Wesneval [a Warenne tenant in Norfolk], John de Chaineto, Richard de Morevill and William de Petrapont.
This grant was confirmed in a post-1164 charter of Adam son of Adam de Poynings where the witnesses included Hamelin, Earl de Warenne, Aubrey de Querceto my sister, Simon son of Simon and William son of Simon.
In another charter Aubrey de Querceto witnessed her brother Adam's grant to St Pancras of all the tithes of his cheeses from his sheepfolds of Poynings and Pangdean for the soul of their mother Beatrice, which was also witnessed by Hamelin Earl de Warenne and Isabel the Countess and William son of Simon among others.
These identify Aubrey de Querceto as Aubrey de Poynings; her role as witness in her own right suggests she was a widow at that time.
William de Caineto
Around 1142/7 William de Caineto witnessed a charter of William 3rd Earl de Warenne with Robert de Wendesuals, Ralph de Pleiz, John de Poynings, Robert de Freville and Drogo his brother.
William de Kaysneto and Aubrey his wife granted land in 'Wilanesdena' to support an altar set up in memory of John de Poynings, in a charter witnessed by Richard de Belmes, Philip de Kaysnetoxxiv, Adam de Puningis and Walchelin the clerk.
It would seem that John died shortly before his father Adam; John was commemorated by his brothers William and Adam, sons of Beatrice de Punningiis, by the gift of 10s from the mill at Poynings in a charter confirmed by William Earl de Warenne, witnessed by John de Kaisneto, William de Droseto, Edwin the priest of Lewes.
The fact that John de Kaisneto became involved in Poynings family affairs to witness this charter of Earl Warenne, rather than William, suggests that William had also died in the meantime; John was the son of Ralf, son of Ralf [fl.1086] and Maud, giving the lands of his father Ralf in Brighton to St Pancras in two charters, the first witnessed by Robert de Freville and Robert and Drogo his sons, the later of them in 1147 witnessed by Robert de Freville and Drogo de Freville alone. John was also the nephew of the William de Querceto who 'gave the churches of St Peter and St Mary at Rudham, Norfolk for the establishment of a priory of canons, afterwards known as Coxford Priory' quoting SAC LVX p23, for 'the souls of Ralph my brother and all my brothers and sisters' referring also to 'my nephew John'. John de Querceto is considered the founder of Coxford Priory in grants, for the souls of Ralf his grandfather and William his uncle, which are dated by witnesses to 1146-49.
This gives a time line in which John de Poynings, Adam his father and William de Querceto all died before William 3rd Earl de Warenne left on crusade in June 1147. This suggests that Aubrey's first husband may have been William, son of Ralf de Caisned, the Domesday holder in Norfolk and Sussex and his wife Maud, or possibly a previously unrecognised son of John de Kaisneto, but almost certainly not William son of Roger de Chesney and Alice de Langetot as Salzmann argued.
Evidentially, it would seem that Aubrey de Cheney/Querceto nee Poynings was a widow c1147. Later in the century Albreda de Querceto is found involved in land in Sutton; her interest in Sutton and the witnesses to charters indicate that she married as her second husband Roger de Fraxineto, probably carrying the 2 fees in Sutton as her marriage portion. As such she was the mother of Beatrice, who similarly carried them to Simon son
of Simon son of Peter de Brixworth.
Roger de Fraxineto [Fraisnai or Fresnay], the King's Constable, witnessed numerous charters of Stephen, including three at Lewes after January 1148xxx He held lands in Holt and Letheringsett in Norfolk of the Honour of Curcy, and he appears in Seaford in 1147/8 when he gave to Lewes priory 'all his land of Sefforde', and 'if he could not warrant it he and his brothers Alan and Gervase, Rualan and William swear and affirm that I will give them an exchange out of my inheritance to the value which the said land of Sefforde had on the Whitsunday before the departure of the King of France for Jerusalem'.
Around the same time, Roger witnessed the gift of William Malfet [son-in-law of Robert Pincerna] against 20 marks from the monks towards his ransom when he was captured at Pevensey [1147], along with Robert Pincerna,Philip de Folkington and Ranulph the porter among others; and two more charters of William Malfet's have the same witnesses with Robert the Frenchman/Robert Franceis in addition.
Roger also gave the tithes of his demesne in Seaford, 3 acres and the 'gore' in Seaford to the Abbey of Grestain for Wilmington priory,xxxiv which he was careful to exclude from his grants when he founded a Hospital for lepers in Seaford between 1157 and 1162/4. The charter of the foundation grants, xxxv was made on the day that Hilary, Bishop of Chichester [1147-69] consecrated their church; 'Roger's wife Albreda and his daughter joined in all these grants'. Witnesses: Master John, Dean of Chichester , Master Jordan, Henry the Archdeacon, Guy the priest of Bishopston, Peter the chaplain of Seaford, Ralph the clerk of Saford, Pagan of Blachington. Robert de Denton, Adam de Puningis, Bartholomew de Querceto, Robert Peverell and many other clerks and laymen'.
A further charter granting 7 acres of land to the chaplain of the lepers, with the same ecclesiastical witnesses, names Roger's wife Albreda and daughter Beatrice in concurrence.
Although undated, the witness lists place the charters between 1157 and 1162/4. Hilary was Bishop of Chichester 1147-1169, Master John, Dean of Chichester occurs 1157-1173, Master Jordan occurs 1154-62/4 and Henry the Archdeacon occurs 1154/7-after 1172, so if Beatrice was old enough to give her assent, she must have been born not later than 1150/2. The inclusion of Adam de Poynings and Bartholomew de Querceto as witnesses to the major grant substantiates the suggestion that Roger's wife Albreda is Aubrey de Querceto nee Poynings.
Farrer reports 'In 1159 Roger de Fresnay accounted for an amercement of 20 marks in Norfolk and Suffolk. He paid 5 marks and owed £10, but the latter charge does not appear in the roll of the following year. The carta of William de Curcy the sewer, returned in 1166, states that '(Simon) son of Simon son of Peter who has the daughter of Roger de Fresnay holds the fee of 4 knights.'
These were Holt and Letheringsett in Norfolk, and two fees in Sutton, Sussex. If Roger were indeed dead in or shortly after 1160, as this suggests, then Beatrice may have been born in 1148, to have given her consent to the grants.
Simon son of Simon succeeded his father Simon son of Peter shortly after 1171, when he held 2½ fees in Brixworth, 1 in Holcote and Orlingbury and Harrowden, Northants and 5 in Holt, Cley and Bayfield, Norfolk, as well as the 2 fees he held of William Curcy that Beatrice had brought. The 7 fees in Norfolk comprised the largest area of influence of the combined holding, and it would not be suprising if members of the family started to use the designator 'de Holt/Hoult/Houlte/Hout/Hod'. William de Holte and Thomas de Holt feature in several charters concerning Sutton, while Thomas de Hoult and William his brother, and Thomas de Hoult and William his son appear in Robertsbridge Abbey charters witnessing a series of grants by Adam de Cobbeford [Copford in Waldron]. Whether these are of the Brixworth family is at present unproven; similarly, the William son of Simon and Thomas son of Simon who witness Sutton charters maybe sons or brothers of the Simon de Brixworh who married Beatrice, or sons of Simon de Echingham. However,it is noticeable that the Robertsbridge grants are concerning holdings of the Maufe/Malfet family; William Maufe was son in law to Robert pincerna, who also held lands in Sutton by Seaford.
Probably around 1160, an exchange was made between Aubrey de Cainetoxxxviii and the church of St Pancras, whereby she and her heirs received 'the messuage that was of Reimbert and Alan his son in Suttona', and Aubrey gave the church 1] the messuage next to Turgot's messuage, 2] a messuage next to the first, which Brichsi held, and 3] one perch of land in Waletuna on the south side of the 8 acres of the Lady Aubrey. 'Simon son of Simon and
Beatrice his wife granted it and confirmed it'. Witnesses included Payn the clerk, William de Orlauston, William de Holte, and Turgot de Sunttun.
Aubrey/Albreda meanwhile retained land in Sutton held of Simon son of Simon, probably as her dower, and was an active landowner after the death of her husband. The following grants are from the 17th century copybook. The suggested date for (b)seems rather late; an Anselm de Glanville occurs, whose father William [d1170] married Beatrice de Sackville. The agreement that was made in the time of Seffrid II [Bishop of Chichester,1180-1202 may be thought to be after the death of Albreda.
(b) Undated, c1200
Grant by ALBREDA DE QUERCETO to JOHN son of THUREBERNE of 2 ac. of land in the vill of Sutton called del Ellen'
Witnesses:--Adam de Puninges, Thomas son of Simon, Moris de Audele, William de Holt, Henry de Secoheford, Anselm de Glanvilla, Hubert de Vallis
(e) Undated. [1180 x 1204]
Composition between Master EDMUND, Canon of Chichester, and the LEPERS of St. James of Saford about the tithes of new cultivations from the demesne pastures of Sutton, whereby, with the assent of the Chapter of Chichester and of Simon son of Simon, lord of Sutton, and Beatrice his wife, Master Edmund was to have a moiety of the tithes of new cultures by Lady Albreda de Cheney after the death of her husband and of future new cultivations, the lepers to have the other moiety; and of 6s. which the Canon used to receive yearly, Edmund to have one half and the lepers the other
Made before Seffrid II., Bishop of Chichester, and the whole Chapter of Chichester and the said Simon son of Simon. Witnesses:--Walter, William, and Stephen, chaplains, William Ruffus, William de Petevill
It was quite common for a widow to retain the surname of her first husband if he were of higher status than her second. While Roger de Fraxineto was a man of some importance as Constable to King Stephen, within Sussex society the Chesney family was one of the largest landholders, and maintaining her place in that extended family would confer a continuing status on her.
Albreda's interest in the lands of Reinbert suggest that her mother Beatrice de Poynings may have been the daughter of Reinbert and Albreda; Albreda de Poynings being named for her grandmother, just as Beatrice de Fraxineto was named for hers.
The sequence of grants in the notebook shows a continuing concern with the land of Brixi, which was held in the time of Aubrey.
(j) Undated. [c1200]
Grant by CECILIA DE ABRINCIIS to SIMON DE SACFORT of lands in Sutton as follows:--7 ac. in Boggedene at the head of Wulwineslinche on the east; 2 ac. in the bottom of the valley in Waltune; 1 ac. at Crokeredic; 4 ac. 1 r. which Brixi the shepherd held; 1 ac. 1 r. on Winterdune which William de Hout held and 1½ ac. for building upon between the monks' court and land of Richard de Frist; also pasture which belongs to half a virgate in the common pasture. Rent 1 lb. of cummin and the service of 1/20th of one knight
Witnesses:--Stephen of Chichester, Ralph the chaplain of Saford, Harding de Saford, John the chaplain of the Hospital, Master Alvered de Saford who wrote the charter
(n) Undated, c1215
Grant by CECILY DE AVERENCHES in widowhood, with the assent of her son, William, to the ABBOT and MONKS OF ROBERTSBRIDGE of her capital messuage with demesne cultures in Sutton next Seford and all pasturages of the manor and 9½ ac. of meadow in the same manor and the dene which is called Omble
Witnesses:--William, Earl of Warrenne, William, 3rd Earl of Sussex, Gilbert de Aquila, Simon de Echingham, William his brother, William de Munceaus, Richard de Cumbe, William Gulafre, Walter de Denne, Reginald Giffart
(q) Undated, c1215
Grant by WILLIAM AVERENCHES to the MONKS of ROBERTSBRIDGE of the Alms which Cecily his mother gave in Sutton
Witnesses:--William, Earl of Warrenne, William de Aubeneis, 3rd Earl of Sussex, Gilbert de Aquila, Simon de Echingham, William his brother, William de Munceaus, Richard de Cumbe, William Gulafre, Walter de Denne, Reginald Giffart, Robert Fitz Alan, Helia Folehit
(v) Undated, c1215
Grant by CECILY DE AVERENCHIIS in widowhood, with the assent of WILLIAM DE AVERENCHIIS her son & heir, to the ABBOT & MONKS OF ROBERTSBRIDGE of the whole tenement and all right which she had in the manor of Sutton next Seaford except the alms which she had granted to them, in fee farm at the yearly rent of 100s. For this donation the Abbot and Monks gave the said Cecily 700 marks of silver for the delivery and release of her son William, from the prison of King John of England
Witnesses:--Simon de Echingham, William his brother, William de Munceuse, Richard de Cumbe, William Gulafre, William de Richardville, Master Ralph de Essebi, Walter de Denn, Robert Fitz Alan, Helia Foleth
(s) Undated, c1215
Grant by WILLIAM DE AVERENCHES confirming his mother's grant of the manor of Sutton. Witnesses, as in last charter
The charter that appears in the Robertsbridge Abbey calendar reiterates that in the notebook,SAS/M1/331 (j), if the substitution of 'L' for 'S' is recognised as a scribal or translation error. Seckford in Suffolk was held at a later date by the Sackville family, who were active in Sussex at this date. There also a number of de Abrincis witnesses who do not appear on the usual descents.
121 William de Abrincis to Simon de Lacford.
Confirmation in fee for his homage and service, of the grant made him, by Cecily the said William's mother, of 20 1/2 acres of land in the vill of Suttune, viz: i acre abutting on Wlwineslinke towards the east in Bogedene, 2 acres lying in the bottom of the valley in Waletune, i acre at Crokeredie, 4 acres and i rod which Brixi Shepherd {Bercarius) held, i acre and i rod above Winterdune which William de Hout held, 1 1/2 rods for building on, between the monks' court and the land of Richard de Fristune, and pasture on the common as much as belongs to half a virgate ; the whole to be held by the service of 1/20 part of a knight's fee. Witnesses: Thomas de Abrincis, Geoffrey de Esseteford, Lambinus de Esseteford, Simon de Abrincis, Geoffrey de Abrincis, Roger Talun, Geoffrey de Gesteling, Robert de Hucham, Alexander ......
Seal round, 2 inches, in fine preservation. Knight on horse at full speed, with sword, helmet, and shield. Legend, ' Sigill: Will: de Averenches.'
Calendar of charters and documents relating to the Abbey of Robertsbridge co: Sussex : reserved at Penshurst among the muniments of lord De Lisle and Dudley https://archive.org/details/calendarofcharte00lond
This is the charter quoted by Farrah also from Robertsbridge:
183. Inter Johem. Abbatem de Ponte Roberti quer' et Ceciliam de Au'enches imped':—De manerio de Sutton; unde placitum warantie carte sum' fuit inter eos:—Cecilia recognovit &c., tenendum in liberam et perpetuam elemosinam reddendo centum sol' apud Sutton ad duos terminos scil' med' infra Oct' Pasch et aliam med' infra Oct' Sci. Michis. et faciendo servicium duorum militum pro omni servicio:—Pro hoc fine Abbas pro se et succ' suis remisit et quietam clamavit Ceciliam et heredes suos de omnibus dampnis que dicebat se habere per defectum warantie Cecilie; et Abbas recepit Ceciliam et heredes suos in singulis beneficiis et orationibus que fient decetero in ecclesia de ponte Roberti.
[Dorso] Sim. fil' Simonis de Hod apponit clamium suum in predicto servicio duorum militum ut in illo manerio quod pater suus dedit in maritagio cum predicta Cecilia. [7° Henry III. Westm' A. die Sci. Mich' in tres sept.' (File 7. No. 10).]
'Sussex Fines: 6-10 Henry III (nos. 172-201)', in An Abstract of Feet of Fines For the County of Sussex: Vol. 1, 1190-1248, ed. L F Salzmann (Lewes, 1903), pp. 44-55 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol1/pp44-55
Dene family interest in Sutton
Ralph de Dene confirmed his father Robert Pincerna's grants, with Robert the Frenchman and Geoffrey de Gatton, Simon the Steward, and Ranulf the porter among the witnesses [c 1160]. This is followed by a charter of Thomas son of Robert the Frenchman of land before the gate of Edwin de la Felde witnessed by Pagan clerk of Blachington, John Chudinet, Ralf de Dene, Geoffrey of Gatton, Miles de Harmere, William de Hoult, Hugh son of Robert the Frenchman etc., which was confirmed by Ralf de Dene with the same witnesses,but also including Thomas son of Robert French['Francigene']
That these relate to Sutton is shown partly by the presence of Payn/Pagan the clerk of Blatchington [between Sutton and Bishopstone, one of the witnesses to the grants to the lepers of Seaford [see above, and also by William de Hoult, who appears frequently in matters relating to Sutton. Later references to Gilbert le Fronke and his wife Cristin Holt, daughter of Thomas Holt, and Robert le Franke their son, may be the heirs of Thomas son of Robert the Frenchman.
How the Dene family held in Sutton is not clear, but their interest would seem to have been granted to Maud de Cheney, whose first husband was Robert Pincerna. Her heir Warin fitz Gerold made over his rights in Sutton to Robertsbridge Abbey at the insistance of Cecily d'Avranches.
SAS/M1 671(m) Warin son of Gerold, at the instance of Cecily de Averenches and William her son, the manor of Sutton near Seford to hold of them and their heirs saving the service of two knights.
See Farrah HFK vol 1 p108
'After the death of her first husband in 1193, Alice de Curcy married Warin Fitz-Gerold, who held the honor of Curcy in 1212 in her right. We find evidence of this in the Inquest of Service,made in 1212, as follows : In Somerset, ' Warin Fitz Gcrold holds Stoke'; and again,'Warin Fitz-Gerold holds Wootton, and it is of his barony of Stoke Curcy'; in Sussex,' Warin Fitz-Gerold 2 knights' fees (in Sutton), but it is not known by what service';'.
Arthur Collin's Peerage [1768] Vol 2, p 263, mentions among the marriage portion given to Ela, daughter of Ralph de Dene 'the land that Robert Fraunceis held of Sutton's fee'.
Ancient deeds A. 4221. Release by Ela, daughter of Ralph de Dene, widow, to the monks of Lewes, of land in Alvrichest' (Alfriston) and Saford, on condition that they pay to the canons of Occheham the yearly service of 8 lbs. of wax and 1 lb. of pepper, which Folcred de Lewes paid to her father for the said lands. Witnesses:—William de Chaines, sheriff of Sussex, Richard de Essete, Richard de la Cumbe, Reinald de Cliftona, and others (named) [7–10 John.] Seal, broken.
Further evidence of Dene involvement in Sutton is shown in this fine:
263. Inter Sibillam de Iklesham pet' et Robm. de Dene ten':—De feodo unius militis et quarta parte feodi unius militis in Dene Waudern Sutton Withiham et Willendon; unde placitum fuit inter eos:—Robs. recognovit &c:—Pro hoc fine Sibilla concessit Robto. totum predictum feodum tenendum Robto. tota vita sua faciendo cap' dominis &c; et post decessum Robti. feodum revertetur ad Sibillam et heredes suos: Et preterea Sibilla concessit quod Abbas de Begeham et successores sui habeant totum tenementum quod habent de dono Sibille matris ipsius Robti. et de dono Robti. tota vita Robti. sine clamio quod Sibilla vel heredes sui apponere possint in vita Roberti. [14° Henry III. Westm' A die Sci. Mich. in v. Sept'. (File 8. No. 5).
'Sussex Fines: 11-15 Henry III (nos. 202-268)', in An Abstract of Feet of Fines For the County of Sussex: Vol. 1, 1190-1248, ed. L F Salzmann (Lewes, 1903), pp. 55-73 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol1/pp55-73
I hope that this will be of interest, and adequately argued to provide an acceptable descent for Cecily d'Avranches from Adam de Poynings [dc 1146/7]. The work on the Dene family is purely to distinguish this Sutton from the many other Suttons in Sussex, Kent and further afield.
Best wishes
Janette Gallini
I have not been able to paste in the endnotes for some reason. If anyone is interested I can send the document fully formatted and referenced as an attachment to an email, but can't do pdf's.
John Watson
Mar 14, 2017, 1:18:52 AM3/14/17
to
Very interesting for me as I live on land which was formerly part of the manor of Sutton in Seaford, Sussex. However, you may have got the order of the marriages of Aubrey de Poynings reversed.
William de Chesney, son of Robert fitz Walter and Sybil de Chesney who married Aubrey did not die in 1146/7 but in 1174. See: - L. F. Salzman, Sussex Domesday Tenants: The Family of Chesney, Sussex Archaeological Collections, 65 (1924), 27-8. Unfortunately this is not on line yet.
Regards,
John
janette...@talk21.com
Mar 14, 2017, 9:42:21 AM3/14/17
to
I don't know if you were aware of the Sutton deeds in the SRS,or have accessed them since my post, but if you live in the area they will be of great interest. They show that the lands in Sutton continued to be subject to payments due to Nettlestead in Kent, which was held by Alan son of Reinbert in the 12th century.
Keats-Rohan mentions the exchange made around 1160 [Domesday Descendants; Filius Reinberti, Alan; p946], but calls Aubrey [presumably Albrea or Albreda in the original] Alberic de Cheney,[ie, male] which creates some confusion. Alan son of Reinbert and William his son gave the church at Nettlestead, Kent to Goring Priory, to whom Alan before his death in 1173 also gave Foscot in Idbury, Oxfordshire. However, Alan evidently did not relinquish all of his rights in Sutton. No 668 [SRS xxix 1924 Abstr. Suss. Deeds, pp147-8] contains three charters: a] Hugh de Ceriton and Acily his wife grant the monks of St Pancras a tenement in Sutton for 100s rent b] in 1319 Lewes Priory granted the manor of Sutton to John de Sutton, who had to 'pay for the priory to Philip Pympe,and Thomas de Gelig, lords of Nettlestead, Kent, 100s yearly due to them for the manor of Sutton' and c] in 1392 when Lewes Priory licensed Michelham Priory to take over the manor, the prior of Michelham had to pay Reginald Pympe of Nettlestead 100s rent due to him for the manor of Sutton . Interestingly, Idbury was part of the Brixworth prebend of Salisbury Cathedral.
I seem to be constitutionally incapable of getting crucial details correct when posting, which is why this is my swansong. After 15 years of ploughing through the family relationships of East Sussex, mainly the Hastings Rape, between 1086 and c1200, I need to get a life, and it is all in the bin. Apart from establishing that the manor house in Bexhill, so cruelly dismantled for road widening, was held by a John de Somery in the late 13th century, which is not to be found anywhere in VCH Sussex, vol9, I have little to show that is of interest. Various relationships in the family of Hastings [the indigenous family, armigerous, of Hollington] which show a skeleton descent do not add up to much more than the sum of their parts, most of which are known, if fragmented, as there seem to be no traceable descendants. Similar work on the Gestling family shows only a close connection to that of Icklesham, which is known, and the afore-mentioned Somery. Attempts to formulate a Somery descent have similarly been without fruit, although the presence of the family in Sussex mops up the Ralf de Somery in Lewes mentioned in passing on the Mediaeval Lands website.
In my post I said that Salzmann suggested Aubrey married William son of Roger de Cheney and Alice de Langetot [William of Oxford]. This is of course incorrect; I should have said that that Salzmann suggested that Aubrey married William, Sheriff of Norfolk, son of Sybil de Chesney and Robert Fitz-Walter, as you say.
I have consulted Salzmann [SAC LXV pp20-53] and Round [The Genealogist, New Series XVII pp1-14] Salter [Eynsham Cartulary Appendix A, pp 411-423] Domesday Descendants [pp367-370], Farrah [HKF III Hamsey, Saddlescombe and Stinton pp313-p 318] and the Mediaeval Lands website before making my suggestion that Aubrey did not marry William of Norfolk [d 1174] as proposed, with a question mark, by Salzmann.
For William of Norfolk, Mediaeval Lands offers only that 'the name of William's wife is not known'; DD under 'de Caisneto, Willelm Filius Roberti' notes his wife, Gilla through whom it is suggested he acquired the fees of Baldwin fitz Guy Angevin in the honour of Boulogne; Gille is also mentioned in HKF p316 and Blomefield's Norfolk vol 10,p433
Farrah Vol III p315
During the period 1146-7 John de Chesney gave to his nascent foundation of Rudham, Norf., which was later removed to Coxford by Rudham, the 2 churches of Rudham and land which Ralph de Chesney his grandfather and William de Chesney his uncle and the grantor had given; also the mill and stew of Coxford, land in Coxford (Tocheswd), Marham, the mill of ' Torp ' with the stew ; these he gave for the souls of his said grandfather and uncle, Roger (de Chesney), their sisters and Waleran de Rochesford, and for his own soul and those of his brothers and sisters; among the witnesses were : Sibyl his wife, Peter de Chesney and Matthew his brother. The donor's charter was renewed before William bishop of Norwich on the eve of the Ascension, being St. Dunstan's day (1147).9 William de Chesney, the uncle named, had confirmed the mill of Thorp Market in a charter addressed to the same bishop.9a The gift must have been made somewhat earlier, as William earl of Warenne sanctioned it in a charter addressed to bishop Everard, who died in ii45.9b
9 Mon. Anglic, vi. 369. 9a. Dugdale MS. (Bodleian) 39, f 101ft. 9b. Ibid. f. 102.
p316
The chartulary of Coxford, according to Dugdale's notes, gives a different account, thus: Ralph de Kayneto came with William the bastard at the Conquest. He had two sons—Ralph II and William, of whom the former (Ralph) had a son John and a daughter Sibyl, and the latter (William) had a daughter Margaret, mother of Roger de Cressi and (by a second husband Robert, son of Roger) of John son of Robert. [This confuses William, son of Sibyl, with her uncle, William de Chesney. The latter, however, is said to have lived in the time of Stephen.]
Robert Fitz-Walter and Sibyl de Chesney his wife (sister of John) founded Horsham priory in the time of Stephen or possibly in the last years of Henry I ; Sibyl gave of her inheritance her land of Rudham.14 Their third son and ultimate heir, William de Chesney, otherwise Wdliam son of Robert Fitz-Walter, founded in 1149 the Cistercian abbey of Sibton for the soul of his wife Gille.15 The gift of Sibton was confirmed by king Stephen when at St. Edmunds Bury.1614. Mon. Angl. iii. 637ft. 15. Ibid. v. 560. 16. Ibid. 559.
Domesday Descendants
p359 under 'de Caisneto Willelm' states 'Son of Ralf de Chesney, fl1086. Willelm founded the priory of Rudham, Norfolk c1140. It was refounded in 1158 by his nephew John at Coxford by Rudham.'
As may be seen from the Farrah entry, the date of 1158 is incorrect. The charter is undated, but the grant was renewed before William, Bishop of Norwich [William Turb, elected 1146] in person, witness William archdeacon of Norwich [William fitzHumphrey, succeeded in 1149 by Roger].
My reasoning for Aubrey's husband to be William son of Ralf and Maud, uncle of John, is that the charters show that William is active in Sussex in the 1140's,and then he isn't; the fact that John refounds Coxford c 1146-7 suggests that William has recently died. There is a continuing involvement between the Poynings family and the Cheney family, but the Cheney representatives are first John, and then Bartholomew, as in the grant of Roger de Fresnay to the Hospital for lepers in Seaford between 1157 and 1162/4.
Around 1142/7 William de Caineto witnessed a charter of William 3rd Earl de Warenne with Robert de Wendesuals, Ralph de Pleiz, John de Poynings, Robert de Freville and Drogo his brother.[SRS XXXVIII Lewes Chart Pt 1 p61. Dated by reference to DD p 468 which says Robert de Freville senior died 1142-47]
Salzmann attributes 'c1145' to a charter of William 3rd Earl de Warenne confirming the grant of the land of Hercham to Lewes, witnessed by Robert de Wendesvals, William de Caineto, John de Puninges, Robert de Frivilla,and Drogo his brother, among others.[SRS xxxviii p 61 Fviii]
Also attributed to 'c1145' is the next charter [idem F ix], also of William 3rd Earl de Warenne:-
I William Earl de Warenne confirm in free alms the gift which William and Adam sons of Beatrice de Puningis made to God and St Pancras for the soul of John their brother, deceased, for the service of the altar of St James, namely 10s from the mill of Puningiis. Witnesses; John de Kaisneto, William de Droseto, Edwin the priest of Lewes.
This is in confirmation of Adam de Poynings' charter [SRS xl p29 Rxxxiii]
I Adam de Punnynges give and confirm the grant which William my brother and Beatrice my mother gave for the soul of John my brother deceased and of all my relations and my own; namely 10s from the mill of Punnyngis. Witnesses; Robert de Wennevale, John de Kainneto
The fly in the ointment is Salzmann's suggestion of c 1165 for the date when William de Kaysneto and Aubrey his wife granted land in Wilanesdena [which he suggests might have been Willingdon] to support an altar set up in memory of John de Poynings, in a charter witnessed by Richard de Belmes, Philip de Kaysneto, Adam de Puningiis and Walchelin the clerk.i
This supports his suggestion of William of Norfolk as Aubrey's husband, but does not correlate with the other grants in memory of John de Poynings: I think that it should read 'after 1145'.
In his essay 'Sussex Domesday Tenants: IV The Family of Chesney or Cheyney' SAC lxv , Salzmann remarks that a William de Querceto was a co-witness with a Philip de Querceto of a charter of William Count of Flanders in 1127[SAC lxv p 21] which if referring to the same men would make 1165 a little late. Evidences suggest that John de Poynings died in 1145/6, and William soon after; in any event, before William 3rd Earl de Warenne left on crusade in 1147.See also Complete Peerage Vol 10, Poynings, p657, fn [a].
It would seem strange, if William were still alive in c 1160, which William of Norfolk evidently was, that the exchange of lands in Sutton would be between the Priory and Albreda, rather than her husband; but if they were her dower lands, as a widow she had the authority to effect the matter, under the overlord – who was Simon son of Simon, her son-in-law, - 'Simon son of Simon and Beatrice his wife granted it and confirmed it'.
Whether Aubrey's husband was William the founder of Coxford, which by virtue of the dates seems possible, or of an unrecorded son of John, I think it highly unlikely that he was William son of Sybil and Robert fitz Walter.
I hope the preceding details are enough to convince you. It must have been a May-to- December marriage, of a young bride to a much older man – but this was exactly the case with Maud de Cheney and Robert Pincerna some years later, also connected with Sutton by Seaford. I do not intend to get embroiled in discussions as to Maud's parentage, however. That has taxed too many people over the years already.
Regards,
Janette
janette...@talk21.com
Mar 14, 2017, 10:03:23 AM3/14/17
to
charles...@ntlworld.com
Feb 19, 2018, 10:37:43 AM2/19/18
to
Hi Janette,
I am blown away by the quality of your research. I live in Seaford, and am researching what I call 'the lost settlement of Sutton' and I came across this chain of correspondence.
I would love to find out more from you on this early stuff, both because I am working on the Seaford Neighbourhood Plan to find out more about the history of the land occupied by the now demolished Seaford Gasworks, which was where Roger de Fraxineto's Leper Hospital and Chapel were located, as well as doing general historical work on the early life of Sutton and Seaford. You could be of enormous assistance in this.
My contact details are
Charlie Grimble, 3, The Corner House, Firle Road, Seaford, BN25 2Hn tel 01323 896060, mb. 07908 079121, email charles...@ntlworld.com.
I hope to hear from you soon,
Best regards,
Charlie
I am blown away by the quality of your research. I live in Seaford, and am researching what I call 'the lost settlement of Sutton' and I came across this chain of correspondence.
I would love to find out more from you on this early stuff, both because I am working on the Seaford Neighbourhood Plan to find out more about the history of the land occupied by the now demolished Seaford Gasworks, which was where Roger de Fraxineto's Leper Hospital and Chapel were located, as well as doing general historical work on the early life of Sutton and Seaford. You could be of enormous assistance in this.
My contact details are
Charlie Grimble, 3, The Corner House, Firle Road, Seaford, BN25 2Hn tel 01323 896060, mb. 07908 079121, email charles...@ntlworld.com.
I hope to hear from you soon,
Best regards,
Charlie
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