Re: Was Sir William Segar's daughter Anne a wife of Lewis Latham?
Doug McDonald
> Notice that Doug's MCA says the following about Frances (Latham)
> (Dungan) Clarke, wife of Jeremy Clarke of Newport, Rhode Island:
> "widow of Thomas Dungan, Gent., of Lincoln's Inn, Middlesex, and
> daughter of Lewis Latham, Gent., Sergeant Falconer to King Charles I,
> by his wife Elizabeth."
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIRMhSEMC&pg=PA205&dq=%22magna+carta%22+dungan+latham&lr=&sig=k8DGWCt8VEaJAm3rYYE6phwY0XI
>
> Notice that in his will of 1653, Frances' father Lewis Latham "of
> Elstow in the county of Bedford, gentleman" mentions his current wife
> Winifred and his daughter Ann Seager (in addition to daughter
> "Francis" Clarke):
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=tEtMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA218&dq=%22lewis+latham%22+elstow&lr=#PPA218,M1
>
Frances Latham as NOT widow of Thomas Dungan "of Lincoln's Inn" and
in fact as far as is known had no relation to him at all. She was
widow of WILLIAM Dungan, perfumer of London, also no know relation to
Thomas Dungan of Lincoln's Inn.
The original post is very interesting because the Dungan/Latham
situation is very odd. Unless there is something really really odd
William Dungan cannot be son of Thomas Dungan of Lincoln's Inn but the
whole situation looks like they must have known of each other.
Doug McDonald
wjhonson
children have been extracted in the IGI. I took a look and I now have
nine children for Lewis by his first wife Elizabeth. Oliver 1607,
Anne 1608, Frances 1609/10, Henry 1612, Mary 1614, Catherine 1616,
Elizabeth 1617, Sarah 1618, Ellen 1619
The register must be defective in 1619 as Ellen just has the year with
no exact date. I suppose Oliver may have died young, as Henry next
shows up having children from 1635.
Will Johnson
Doug McDonald
>
> How odd that you focus on a minor error rather than on the far-more-
> exciting "new" stuff. This sort of nit-picking pettifoggery is
> precisely why most people on this list will never find _anything_ of
> interest ... :-)~
This is a minor error with regard to Latham and Clarke.
It IS MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT a minor error for Dungan.
I am a dungan/Latham descendant. Maybe you are not aware of this mess.
For may years it was thought that William Dungan, Perfumer, and first
husband of Frances Latham, was indeed son of Thomas Dungan of Lincoln's
end. I suppose you could say that calling Frances Latham as "widow
of Thomas Dungan of Lincoln's Inn" is a minor error, as she was
frequently called widow for Thomas's purported son William.
But you see, this matters quite a bit, because if she were widow
of Thomas, not William, or if Willima were son of Thomas, her children,
including Thomas Dungan (b. London) of Rhode ISland and Pennsylvania,
would be Edward I descendants (though Thomas Dungan of Lincoln's Inn.)
However, it appears that in fact they were children of her and William
the Perfumer, who appears not to be of royal descent.
I hope this is clear enough.
So in fact it is not "pettyfoggery".
I agree that the new stuff is very interesting indeed. It may shed
light on the Dungan/Latham mess. I hope you will look into that mess.
If you can shed light on the ancestry of Frances Latham Dungan's children
you will indeed have a big deal.
Doug McDonald
pj.evans
It's my understanding that Williiam-the-perfumer's father was named
Thomas. (For whatever that additional information might be worth,
which in this newsgroup seems to be less every month.)
I'd like to know more about the Latham family - there's the mysterious
part!
pj.evans
Additionally, the Dungan side appears to run like this, according to
Thomas P Dongan:
William
Thomas b ca 1582 (by second wife, name unknown) m ca 1605 Mary
Richard b 1550 in Dublin d Dec 1609 in London (plasterer)
Thomas Dongan d ca 1590 m Agnes
Philip Dongan m Alison Walshe
Doug McDonald
>
> It's my understanding that Williiam-the-perfumer's father was named
> Thomas.
Apparently nothing is known about William's ancestry. Thomas of
Lincoln's Inn indeed had a son William but is was discovered that
this son died too young to be William the Perfumer.
see
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mylines/dungan_royal_myth_intro1.htm
Doug McDonald
Doug McDonald
> pj.evans wrote:
>
>>
>> It's my understanding that Williiam-the-perfumer's father was named
>> Thomas.
>
> Apparently nothing is known about William's ancestry. Thomas of
> Lincoln's Inn indeed had a son William but is was discovered that
> this son died too young to be William the Perfumer.
>
I misremembered: he was born too late, not died too soon.
us...@domain.invalid
> > I agree that the new stuff is very interesting indeed. It may shed
>> light on the Dungan/Latham mess. I hope you will look into that mess.
>> If you can shed light on the ancestry of Frances Latham Dungan's children
>> you will indeed have a big deal.
>>
>> Doug McDonald
>
> that my post implied that Frances Latham may have been a granddaughter
> of Sir William Segar? That is indeed "a big deal" in anyone's book.
> Bigger than any genealogical "discovery" you have ever made, I dare
> say. And I dare repeat. And once more.
Well, I have made one and only one genealogical discovery
of note: that the immigrant Rev. Robert Rose was a descendant
of Edward III through the Grants of Ballindalloch.
I don't pretend to be a big-time reseacher. I'm just a nice,
non-combative lurker.
>
> Dungan is one of those things, like Thomas Dudley's ancestry, that
> repays less and less the more it is looked at.
>
Dungan will repay nothing at all unless somebody finds something.
And, remember that a big Latham find is a big Dungan find. To be
nasty as people here tend to try to be, which I wasn't, let me make
the point: I was trying to tell you that an interesting Latham
find would make a big splash with the Dungan people. It was a compliment.
I have always thought Latham would turn out interesting.
Who was Sir William Segar, ancestry-wise? How big is his ancestry?
This is a serious question. OK, I'll spend a second
seeing if he is on Genealogics. Nope, nothing.
Doug McDonald
pj.evans
>
> Doug McDonald
He isn't a son of Thomas of Lincoln's Inn - if I'd meant that, I'd
have said so.
Given the popularity of Thomas and William as names, I'd be cautious
about saying they're related, although it's possible. (Sorry, my data
is at home, and I'm not; if they're related, it's not closer than
second or third cousin.)
pj.evans
Pulled a short descendancy from my own database; if I have it (and the
Thomases) right, Thomas of Lincoln's Inn was a second cousin of Thomas
father of William the perfumer:
1 Philip DONGAN
+ Alison WALSHE
2 Thady DONGAN d: abt 1563
+ Anne O'MOORE
3 Patrick DONGAN
3 John DONGAN d: 8 Aug 1592
+ Margaret FORSTER
4 Walter DONGAN b: 8 Nov 1579 d: 21 Dec 1626
4 Edward DONGAN d: aft 2 Mar 1639
4 Thomas DONGAN b: abt 1584 d: 1662
4 William DONGAN b: Dec 1589 d: 11 Dec 1622
3 Thomas DONGAN
3 Alison DONGAN
+ Patrick WRIGHT
2 John DONGAN
2 Thomas DONGAN d: abt 1590
+ Agnes d: aft 1600
3 Peter DONGAN d: abt 1590
3 Richard DUNGAN b: 1550 d: 16 Dec 1609
+ unknown d: bef 1581
4 Agnes DUNGAN b: 1577
+ unknown d: bef 1601
4 Thomas DUNGAN b: abt 1582
+ Mary d: abt 1608
5 William DUNGAN b: 1607 d: bef 20 Sep 1636
+ Frances LATHAM b: bef 15 Feb 1609 c: 15 Feb 1609
d: Sep 1677
5 John DUNGAN d: 1653
+ Elizabeth FARRAR
4 William DUNGAN b: abt 1584 d: abt 20 Oct 1609
+ Elizabeth JAMES
+ Elizabeth b: abt 1557 d: bef 16 Nov 1615
3 Thomas DONGAN d: 1604
4 Richard DONGAN d: abt 1627
3 Agnes DONGAN d: abt 1621
+ Mr MEGRAM
4 Patrick MEGRAM
+ Dorothy BRUIN
As for the Lathams, there are claims that Lewis Latham is connected
with, if not actually a descendant of, Simon Latham the falconer, but
I haven't seen any solid evidence for it (a lot of 'I suppose' and
'probably' in that pedigree). There are also people who connect Lewis
Latham to the Lathams / Lathoms of Knowsley, with (as far as I can
tell) less evidence.
us...@domain.invalid
>
> Pulled a short descendancy from my own database; if I have it (and the
> Thomases) right, Thomas of Lincoln's Inn was a second cousin of Thomas
> father of William the perfumer:
>
> 1 Philip DONGAN
> + Alison WALSHE
> 2 Thady DONGAN d: abt 1563
> + Anne O'MOORE
>
(clipped just to save space)
Now I fond that interesting indeed.
What is your source?
Of course, it does not give William Dungan a royal ancestry, but at
least it gives him an ancestry.
Doug McDonald
pj.evans
Thomas P Dungan has written a couple of - well, I think they'd be
monographs - on William Dungan's ancestry. The major, more recent, one
is primarily on the family of Richard Dungan.
<em>Richard Dungan, master plasterer of London in Shakespeare’s time:
a continuing quest for origins</em>, by Thomas P Dungan.
us...@domain.invalid
> Thomas P Dungan has written a couple of - well, I think they'd be
> monographs - on William Dungan's ancestry. The major, more recent, one
> is primarily on the family of Richard Dungan.
>
> <em>Richard Dungan, master plasterer of London in Shakespeare’s time:
> a continuing quest for origins</em>, by Thomas P Dungan.
Have you seen this book? I have found it only in the catalog of the
Mormon library in SLC. At least there is an ISBN.
Doug McDonald
pj.evans
I have a copy.
FHL catalog: 921.42 D918d (no film yet)
The LA Central library doesn't have this one, but they have his other
two.
pj.evans
Now that I'm home and awake and have it to hand ... the flyer which I
have stashed inside the cover says from the author (along with his
other works on the Dungan/Dongan family):
Thomas P Dungan
PO Box 1309
Dandridge, TN 37725-1309
Since this information is five years old, it may no longer be accurate.
us...@domain.invalid
I FINALLY found it in our university library system online
catalog system and ordered it up by interlibrary loan. It's interesting
that while we have a gigantic collection of 19th and 20th century
English/Scottish history.genealogy collection (registers, pipe rolls, etc.)
our more recent genealogy stuff is abysmal, while the University of
Chicago collection is quite good (but apparently not loanable on
interlibrary loan). Luckily it is in several other libraries that
do loan to us.
Generally, one cannot find something in our catalog without an ISBN.
This means that the old stuff has to be searched for physically,
on the shelves!
Doug McDonald