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Neville of Scotton / Brampton - De la Hay - Trian ( Treaunt )
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Jason Quick
Apr 17, 2016, 8:19:02 PM4/17/16
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Prior Posts
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/trian$20eustacia/soc.genealogy.medieval/9IsR8S6e1WY/EVHrZF6WOWEJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/eustacia$20trian/soc.genealogy.medieval/oN5BcnUT03A/3NysFVOgB7EJ
This is a continuation of the discussion of the Trian and de la Hay families and their connections to Sir Robert Nevill of Scotton, who died in 1220-21. There seems to be a lot of confusion on how Robert, and his son received Brampton from the Trian family. I think the conclusion on previous posts state that Eustacia Trian was the wife of both Ralph de la Hay, and Robert de Neville. Another post from a different discussion, mentions Eustacia Trian could be the mother-in-law of Robert de Neville, not his wife.
I found two sources stating that Robert de Neville was possibly married to a daughter of Eustacia Trian and Ralph de la Hay, but the sources give two entirely different names. George Baker states, a wife Christiana and the Estate Archives of Henry Bray mention Huelyna. I have no idea how Christiana and Huelyna could possibly translate into each other or if they could be sisters.
George Bakers, History and Antiquities of Northampton Vol. 1 pg. 83.
"in 4 Edw 1 (1275), the jurors of the hundred presented that "Christiana de Neyvil," widow of Sir Robert de Nevill, and daughter and heiress of Sir Ralph de la Hay, had appropriated to herself a free and several fishery in the water which divides the fields of Boughton and "Brampton," which used to be in common" (q) Rot. 4 Hen. 8 n. 25.
The estate Book of Henry de Bray pg. 95. .https://archive.org/stream/estatebookofhenr00brayrich#page/94/mode/2up
Dominus Henricus Dyve supradictus occidit servientem dicti Roberti Treaunt camerarii domini regis, pro eo quod equitavit ultra blada ipsius Henrici Dyve, et pro dicta occisione dominus rex dedit dicto Roberto Treaunt corpus dicti domini Henrici et omnes terras suas. Et postea idem Robertus Treant dedit dicto domino Henrico medietatem de Brampton parva. Anna soror et heres praedicti Roberti Treaunt desponsata Radulpho de la Hay. De Radulpho de la Hay Huelyna filia et heres desponsata domino Roberto de Nevyle. Philippus, Robertus, Philippus qui nunc est. (note: the index calls Hueyna de Nevyle, Roberts wife)
below are 4 out of 9 generations of the Pedigree from Bakers Northampton
Treaunt, De la Hay, Nevill or Brampton
From Lansdown MSS. 799, Collated with Nichols's Leic p. 157-167
Robert Treaunt Anne or Eustacia Treaunt =Ralph de la Hay d(1254)=Lucia (Widow)
(Baker has Anne and Eustacia as Robert Treaunts' sisters)
Sir Robert Nevill, of Brampton, = Christiana, L (1275-6)
(Christiana as a daughter of Eustacia & Ralph in the Pedigree)
Sir Phillip Nevill, of Brampton, 48 Hen. 3 = ...... Ralph de Nevill
(Robert had two sons Phillip and Ralph in the Pedigree)
Sir Robert Nevill,1313-14 = Maud, d of ......ob. 1312 Joan, wife of John de Hardreshull
(Phillip had a son Robert and a daughter Joan in the Pedigree)
Regards - Jason J Quick
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/trian$20eustacia/soc.genealogy.medieval/9IsR8S6e1WY/EVHrZF6WOWEJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/eustacia$20trian/soc.genealogy.medieval/oN5BcnUT03A/3NysFVOgB7EJ
This is a continuation of the discussion of the Trian and de la Hay families and their connections to Sir Robert Nevill of Scotton, who died in 1220-21. There seems to be a lot of confusion on how Robert, and his son received Brampton from the Trian family. I think the conclusion on previous posts state that Eustacia Trian was the wife of both Ralph de la Hay, and Robert de Neville. Another post from a different discussion, mentions Eustacia Trian could be the mother-in-law of Robert de Neville, not his wife.
I found two sources stating that Robert de Neville was possibly married to a daughter of Eustacia Trian and Ralph de la Hay, but the sources give two entirely different names. George Baker states, a wife Christiana and the Estate Archives of Henry Bray mention Huelyna. I have no idea how Christiana and Huelyna could possibly translate into each other or if they could be sisters.
George Bakers, History and Antiquities of Northampton Vol. 1 pg. 83.
"in 4 Edw 1 (1275), the jurors of the hundred presented that "Christiana de Neyvil," widow of Sir Robert de Nevill, and daughter and heiress of Sir Ralph de la Hay, had appropriated to herself a free and several fishery in the water which divides the fields of Boughton and "Brampton," which used to be in common" (q) Rot. 4 Hen. 8 n. 25.
The estate Book of Henry de Bray pg. 95. .https://archive.org/stream/estatebookofhenr00brayrich#page/94/mode/2up
Dominus Henricus Dyve supradictus occidit servientem dicti Roberti Treaunt camerarii domini regis, pro eo quod equitavit ultra blada ipsius Henrici Dyve, et pro dicta occisione dominus rex dedit dicto Roberto Treaunt corpus dicti domini Henrici et omnes terras suas. Et postea idem Robertus Treant dedit dicto domino Henrico medietatem de Brampton parva. Anna soror et heres praedicti Roberti Treaunt desponsata Radulpho de la Hay. De Radulpho de la Hay Huelyna filia et heres desponsata domino Roberto de Nevyle. Philippus, Robertus, Philippus qui nunc est. (note: the index calls Hueyna de Nevyle, Roberts wife)
below are 4 out of 9 generations of the Pedigree from Bakers Northampton
Treaunt, De la Hay, Nevill or Brampton
From Lansdown MSS. 799, Collated with Nichols's Leic p. 157-167
Robert Treaunt Anne or Eustacia Treaunt =Ralph de la Hay d(1254)=Lucia (Widow)
(Baker has Anne and Eustacia as Robert Treaunts' sisters)
Sir Robert Nevill, of Brampton, = Christiana, L (1275-6)
(Christiana as a daughter of Eustacia & Ralph in the Pedigree)
Sir Phillip Nevill, of Brampton, 48 Hen. 3 = ...... Ralph de Nevill
(Robert had two sons Phillip and Ralph in the Pedigree)
Sir Robert Nevill,1313-14 = Maud, d of ......ob. 1312 Joan, wife of John de Hardreshull
(Phillip had a son Robert and a daughter Joan in the Pedigree)
Regards - Jason J Quick
John Watson
Apr 18, 2016, 10:54:17 AM4/18/16
to
Eustache, daughter of William Trian and his wife Joan, sister and heiress of Robert Trian (d. 1214) married, about 1203, Robert de Neville of Scotton, son of Ralph de Neville and his wife Drusiane d'Aubigny. They had at least 2 sons, Robert de Neville who died before 1238 and Philip de Neville who died in April 1273. Robert de Neville died before 1221 and Eustache married secondly, Ralph de la Haye of Burwell, by whom she had a son John and a daughter Joan who married Ralph fitz Hugh. Eustache died about 1250 and Ralph married secondly, about 1252, Isabel, daughter and co-heiress of William de Montague of Sussex. Ralph died shortly before 22 June 1254. His widow Isabel married secondly Thomas de Aldham (d. Dec 1275) and thirdly Richard de Pevensey. Isabel died in August 1285.
That's it in a nutshell.
Regards,
John
Jason Quick
Apr 18, 2016, 2:26:50 PM4/18/16
to
For my curiosity is there one specific charter in Latin that mentions Robert and Eustacia were actually married? What threw me off was the record from the Estate Book of Henry De Bray, (Landsdonwn MSS 761) The author transcribed the latin to read "De Radulpho de la Hay Huelyna filia et heres desponsata domino Roberto de Nevyle" Which to me reads "Ralph de la Hay, Huelyna his daughter, then an heir who was betrothed to Sir Robert de Nevyle"...But I am..by no means an expert in Latin.
Your pedigree is what I have at the moment for the Nevill's of Scotton. I do know that Christopher Hatton's book of fee's pg 18, has Ralph de Neville, (Robert's Brother)as the Father of Phillip, but the charters show no evidence to support that.
Jason
John Watson
Apr 18, 2016, 3:44:10 PM4/18/16
to
William Train of Oxenton, Gloucestershire married Joan. He probably died before 1194 when his widow was married to William de Bouquetot, a Norman. In 1194 William de Buketot paid 50s. for the farm of Oxenton for half a year.
Doris M. Stenton, ed., The Great Roll of the Pipe for the Sixth year of the Reign of King Richard the First: Michaelmas 1194, Pipe Roll Society, 43, New Series, 5 (1928), 54.
William de Buketot died between 1200 and 1202. His widow Joan married thirdly, Philip d'Aubigny, brother of Drusiane d'Aubigny, and uncle of the young Robert de Neville of Scotton, and his younger brother Ralph.
1200-02, Dominus Rex concessit Philippe de Albenino uxorem que fuit Willelmi de Buketot cum tota terra sua. Et mandatum est G. de Glapion senescallo Normannie et G. filio Petri quod est de ipsa uxore et terra sua saisinam habere faciant et etiam faciant scire Domino Regi quid terra ipsius valeat. Et Comes Lecestrie est plegiat ipsius Philippi de fine quem faciet Domino Regi.
Thomas Duffus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Normanniae in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, vol. 1 (1835), 44.
In 1207, Robert Train was underage and in the custody of Philip de Aubigny and Joan his wife [Robert's mother]. Philip and Joan, on behalf of Robert, sued Henry, son of Henry de Dive, concerning tenements in Bramton [Church Brampton, Northamptonshire] and in Northampton. A final concord (temp. Hen. II) between William father of Robert Trian and Henry father of Henry de Dive as to tenements in Chapel Brampton and Northampton was submitted.
Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 5: 8-10 John (1931), 71.
25 April 1214, Order to P. Bishop of Winchester, to take into the king's hand the land and appurtenances which Robert Trian holds of the honor of Gloucester.
Thomas Dufus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, vol. 1 (1833), 142b.
It apears that Philip d'Aubigny and Joan decided to marry Joan's daughter Eustache to Philip's nephew, Robert de Neville.
24 August 1214, Order to P. Bishop of Winchester, to give seisin to Robert de Nevill of the manor of Oxenden which was of Robert de Trian whose heir is Eustachia sister of the aforesaid Robert de Trian who the aforesaid Robert de Nevill has married.
Thomas Duffus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, vol. 1 (1833), 170b.
June 1215, Order to the Sheriff of Gloucester to find Hugelina, the wife of Robert Tryan, in the necessities of life, from the chattels of the land.
Thomas Dufus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, Vol. 1, 1204-1224, p. 207b.
Robert de Neville died about 1220, leaving two sons, Ralph and Philip, who were both underage. Robert de Neville's brother Sir Ralph de Neville was given custody of the lands of his brother until Ralph the heir came of age.
1220-22, Omnibus hoc scriptum uisuris R[obertus] Dei gratia abbas de Burgo et eiusdem loci conuentus salutem Noueritis nos concessisse Radulpho de Neuill fratri Roberti de Neuill de Scotere [Scotton] wardam tocius terre quam de nobis tenuit predictus Robertus de Scotere cum omnibus pertinenciis usque ad legalem etatem Radulphi pueri filii prenominati Roberti de Neuille pro xx marcis quas idem Radulphus nobis dedit saluis nobis forinsecis seruiciis de predicta terra de Scotun cum pertinenciis Et si forte contingat sepedictum Radulphum de Neuill in fata concedere uel uitam suam mutare ante legitimam etatem predicti Radulphi nepotis sui prefata uarda cum pertinenciis nobis sine omni contradictione redibit Et in huius rei testimonium has literas patentes nostras sigillis signatas fecimus Hiis testibus Philippo de Aubeney Oliuero fratre eius Elia persona de Scotere W de Scotere.
C. N. L. Brooke and M. M. Postan, eds., Carte Nativorum, a Peterborough Abbey Cartulary, Northamptonshire Record Society, (Oxford, 1960), No. 531.
Regards,
John
Message has been deleted
Jason Quick
Apr 20, 2016, 6:35:32 PM4/20/16
to
Jon
Thanks for your info and setting me straight.
The Hueyna de Nevyle from The Estate records of Henry Bray is probably a misinterpretation from an earlier charter you mentioned, "Rob Tryan, t catalla in ea inventa. Et ut iveniat Hugelene" from the Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, http://ub-goobi-pr2.ub.uni-greifswald.de/viewer/image/PPN848631250/265/ . Christiana, if she existed was probably a daughter of Phillip.
Here is food for thought.
We know Robert Trian's father was named William Trian. Curia Regis Rolls of Richard and John. Pp 71 "North'. - Idem Willelmum Trian, patrem Roberti Trian, qui est in custodia eorum, et Henricum de Dive,". I am proposing a possible link to the "de Turri" family in Wales. Gregory de turri, clerk to, William Earl of Gloucester had a son named William Trihan. Gregory's uncle was called Elias the Chamberlain and they received lands around Bristol. I know Oxenton, where Wiliam held lands was under the Earls of Gloucester since Robert Fitzhamon.
Pedigree of De Turri
A History of Margam Abbey 1897: pg 405 https://books.google.com/books?id=pws_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA44&dq=%22william+trihan%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH18_PlZzMAhUGOiYKHey9DkAQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=%22william%20trihan%22&f=false
Transactions of the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, Volumes 106-108 pg 111
"...son of Gregory had given these properties, presumably after the death of Earl William of Gloucester in 1183. Robert Fitz Gregory was one of Earl William's stewards and the son of another important tenant of the honour, Gregory de Turri. The remainder of Rendcombe with the mill and lands' was explicitly described by William de la Mare as 'what I and my ancestors had in Upper Rendcombe when he gave it to Bruern Abbey, and thus cannot be identified with the the land which his brother-in-law gave to his wife Amfelise. Moreover, when Robert de la Mare, recorded as one of Earl William's knights in 1166 and probably William's father (there is no evidence to support Dr Elrington's conjecture that Robert de la Mare was an alias of Robert Fitz Gregory) gave a house and land in Upper Rendcombe to Bruern Abbey, it was described as 'formerly of Walter de Bosco and his son Britwold"
Regards
Jason
Thanks for your info and setting me straight.
The Hueyna de Nevyle from The Estate records of Henry Bray is probably a misinterpretation from an earlier charter you mentioned, "Rob Tryan, t catalla in ea inventa. Et ut iveniat Hugelene" from the Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, http://ub-goobi-pr2.ub.uni-greifswald.de/viewer/image/PPN848631250/265/ . Christiana, if she existed was probably a daughter of Phillip.
Here is food for thought.
We know Robert Trian's father was named William Trian. Curia Regis Rolls of Richard and John. Pp 71 "North'. - Idem Willelmum Trian, patrem Roberti Trian, qui est in custodia eorum, et Henricum de Dive,". I am proposing a possible link to the "de Turri" family in Wales. Gregory de turri, clerk to, William Earl of Gloucester had a son named William Trihan. Gregory's uncle was called Elias the Chamberlain and they received lands around Bristol. I know Oxenton, where Wiliam held lands was under the Earls of Gloucester since Robert Fitzhamon.
Pedigree of De Turri
A History of Margam Abbey 1897: pg 405 https://books.google.com/books?id=pws_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA44&dq=%22william+trihan%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH18_PlZzMAhUGOiYKHey9DkAQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=%22william%20trihan%22&f=false
Transactions of the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, Volumes 106-108 pg 111
"...son of Gregory had given these properties, presumably after the death of Earl William of Gloucester in 1183. Robert Fitz Gregory was one of Earl William's stewards and the son of another important tenant of the honour, Gregory de Turri. The remainder of Rendcombe with the mill and lands' was explicitly described by William de la Mare as 'what I and my ancestors had in Upper Rendcombe when he gave it to Bruern Abbey, and thus cannot be identified with the the land which his brother-in-law gave to his wife Amfelise. Moreover, when Robert de la Mare, recorded as one of Earl William's knights in 1166 and probably William's father (there is no evidence to support Dr Elrington's conjecture that Robert de la Mare was an alias of Robert Fitz Gregory) gave a house and land in Upper Rendcombe to Bruern Abbey, it was described as 'formerly of Walter de Bosco and his son Britwold"
Regards
Jason
martin...@gmail.com
Jan 19, 2017, 7:03:08 AM1/19/17
to
Jason Quick
Nov 9, 2017, 4:33:09 PM11/9/17
to
re
William de Buketot died between 1200 and 1202. His widow Joan married thirdly, Philip d'Aubigny, brother of Drusiane d'Aubigny, and uncle of the young Robert de Neville of Scotton, and his younger brother Ralph.
1200-02, Dominus Rex concessit Philippe de Albenino uxorem que fuit Willelmi de Buketot cum tota terra sua. Et mandatum est G. de Glapion senescallo Normannie et G. filio Petri quod est de ipsa uxore et terra sua saisinam habere faciant et etiam faciant scire Domino Regi quid terra ipsius valeat. Et Comes Lecestrie est plegiat ipsius Philippi de fine quem faciet Domino Regi.
Thomas Duffus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Normanniae in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, vol. 1 (1835), 44.
It seems that Joan, wife of Phillip de Aubigne and widow of William de Buketot was the daughter of Hughes de Panthou.
Notices, mémoires et documents, Volumes 1-2 Société d'agriculture, d'archéologie et d'histoire naturelle du département de la Manche, Société d'agriculture, d'archéologie et d'histoire naturelle du département de la Manche, Saint-Lô
1851 - Manche pg 166
bef 1099
Universis sancte Matris ecclesie filiis Henricus de Ferrariis salutem. Notum sit vobis quod ego H de Ferrariis reddidi Willelmo de Boketot qui habet in uxorem Johannam filiam Hugonis Pantof heredem de Samcela omne tenementum de Sameele, ad precem domini Ricardi regis Anglie et pro ducentis libris Andcgavensium sicut Hugo Pantof le tort de Auberi, et Hugo Pantof filiusejus idem tenementum habuerunt et tenuerunt
https://books.google.com/books?id=sGc2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA166&dq=Hugues+de+Pantof&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi72pK-m7LXAhXRJuwKHTYmDUIQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Hugues%20de%20Pantof&f=false
Mémoires de la Société des antiquaires de Normandie pg. 431 no. 186
https://books.google.com/books?id=RzlOAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Grands Rôles Des Échiquiers De Normandie, Publiés Par Léchaudé-D'Anisy, Volume 1 pg. 104 Bottom Right https://books.google.com/books?id=IsReAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
William de Buketot died between 1200 and 1202. His widow Joan married thirdly, Philip d'Aubigny, brother of Drusiane d'Aubigny, and uncle of the young Robert de Neville of Scotton, and his younger brother Ralph.
1200-02, Dominus Rex concessit Philippe de Albenino uxorem que fuit Willelmi de Buketot cum tota terra sua. Et mandatum est G. de Glapion senescallo Normannie et G. filio Petri quod est de ipsa uxore et terra sua saisinam habere faciant et etiam faciant scire Domino Regi quid terra ipsius valeat. Et Comes Lecestrie est plegiat ipsius Philippi de fine quem faciet Domino Regi.
Thomas Duffus Hardy, ed., Rotuli Normanniae in Turri Londoniensi Asservati, vol. 1 (1835), 44.
Notices, mémoires et documents, Volumes 1-2 Société d'agriculture, d'archéologie et d'histoire naturelle du département de la Manche, Société d'agriculture, d'archéologie et d'histoire naturelle du département de la Manche, Saint-Lô
1851 - Manche pg 166
bef 1099
Universis sancte Matris ecclesie filiis Henricus de Ferrariis salutem. Notum sit vobis quod ego H de Ferrariis reddidi Willelmo de Boketot qui habet in uxorem Johannam filiam Hugonis Pantof heredem de Samcela omne tenementum de Sameele, ad precem domini Ricardi regis Anglie et pro ducentis libris Andcgavensium sicut Hugo Pantof le tort de Auberi, et Hugo Pantof filiusejus idem tenementum habuerunt et tenuerunt
https://books.google.com/books?id=sGc2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA166&dq=Hugues+de+Pantof&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi72pK-m7LXAhXRJuwKHTYmDUIQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Hugues%20de%20Pantof&f=false
Mémoires de la Société des antiquaires de Normandie pg. 431 no. 186
https://books.google.com/books?id=RzlOAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Grands Rôles Des Échiquiers De Normandie, Publiés Par Léchaudé-D'Anisy, Volume 1 pg. 104 Bottom Right https://books.google.com/books?id=IsReAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
John Watson
Nov 10, 2017, 3:50:06 AM11/10/17
to
Good find. Does anyone with better knowledge of French than me know how to translate "Hugo Pantof le tort de Auberi" into English.
Regards,
John
John Watson
Nov 10, 2017, 4:17:28 AM11/10/17
to
Universis Sancte Matris Ecclesie filiis ad quos presens carta pervenerit, Henricus de Ferrariis salutem. Notum sit vobis quod Ego H(enricus) de Ferrariis reddidi Willelmo de Boketot qui habet in uxorem Johannam filiam Hugonis Pantof heredem de Sameele omne tenementum de Sameele integre cum omnibus pertinentes suis in boscho et plano, in elemosinis et in omnibus aliis rebus, ad precem domini R(icardi) Regis Anglie et pro ducentis libris Andegavensium quas propter hoc mihi dedit, sicut Hugo Pantof le Tort de Auberi et Hugo Pantof filius ejus iidem tenementum habuerunt et tenuerunt. Tenendum ipsi et heredibus ejus per tale servicium quale dicti H(ugo) Pantof le Tort, et H(ugo) filius ejus fecerunt dominis et heredibus de Sapo, et sicut recognitum fuit ad Scacarium domini Regis apud Cadomum, coram Willelmo fiiio Radulfi, tunc senescallo Normannie et coram Baronibus domini Regis, per juramentum plurium legitimerum militum et vavassorum. Et ut factum istud ratum et firmum in futuris temporibus habeatur, id presenti carta et sigilli mei munimine confirmavi. Testibus his: Roberto abbate Sancti Andree, Ricardo Servain, Radulfo Abbate, justiciis domini Regis, Henrico Folins, Walquelino de Ferrariis, Hugone de Ferrariis, Gilleberto Malesmains, Roberto de Mortuo mari, Arturo de Sapo et aliis pluribus.
Lucien Valin, ed., Le Duc de Normandie et sa Cour (912-1204) (Paris, 1910), 281.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3440081;view=1up;seq=305
I'm still none the wiser about Hugh Pantulf le Tort (the wrong one?).
Regards,
John
Peter Stewart
Nov 10, 2017, 5:00:11 AM11/10/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/61120+Aubry-le-Panthou,+France/@48.8512232,0.1854142,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x47e1f1b04b9b7c13:0xf410f2d7007cf548!8m2!3d48.850726!4d0.232255
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Nov 10, 2017, 5:27:54 AM11/10/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
about. I imagine Hugo's byname "le Tort" was perhaps earned through his
incompetence as sheriff of Shropshire - according to Janet Meisel in
*Barons of the Welsh Frontier* (1980) p. 28: 'Hugh was an unbelievably
inept sheriff. For some twenty-two years after Hugh turned over the
shrievalty to William Fitz Alan II in 1189, the Pipe Rolls are full of
entries in which the clerks of the Exchequer are trying to straighten
out the bureaucratic chaos which Hugh left behind him. Succeeding
sheriffs complain bitterly of the condition in which Hugh left the royal
manors...'
Peter Stewart
Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
Nov 10, 2017, 5:49:20 AM11/10/17
to John Watson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
From: John Watson
Sent: 10 November 2017 09:17
In Anglo-Norman 'tort' was an adjective meaning 'twisted, bent, distorted, deformed' (as well as 'wrongful' in a legal sense), and the by-name 'le Tort' described someone who was physically crippled or deformed in some way.
Matt Tompkins
Sent: 10 November 2017 09:17
> Here's a fuller version of the same charter:
>
> Universis Sancte Matris Ecclesie filiis ad quos presens carta pervenerit, Henricus de Ferrariis salutem. Notum sit vobis quod Ego H(enricus) de Ferrariis reddidi Willelmo de Boketot qui habet in uxorem Johannam filiam Hugonis Pantof heredem de Sameele omne tenementum de Sameele integre cum omnibus pertinentes suis in boscho et plano, in elemosinis et in omnibus aliis rebus, ad precem domini R(icardi) Regis Anglie et pro ducentis libris Andegavensium quas propter hoc mihi dedit, sicut Hugo Pantof le Tort de Auberi et Hugo Pantof filius ejus iidem tenementum habuerunt et tenuerunt. Tenendum ipsi et heredibus ejus per tale servicium quale dicti H(ugo) Pantof le Tort, et H(ugo) filius ejus fecerunt dominis et heredibus de Sapo, et sicut recognitum fuit ad Scacarium domini Regis apud Cadomum, coram Willelmo fiiio Radulfi, tunc senescallo Normannie et coram Baronibus domini Regis, per juramentum plurium legitimerum militum et vavassorum. Et ut factum istud ratum et firmum in futuris temporibus habeatur, id presenti carta et sigilli mei munimine confirmavi. Testibus his: Roberto abbate Sancti Andree, Ricardo Servain, Radulfo Abbate, justiciis domini Regis, Henrico Folins, Walquelino de Ferrariis, Hugone de Ferrariis, Gilleberto Malesmains, Roberto de Mortuo mari, Arturo de Sapo et aliis pluribus.
Lucien Valin, ed., Le Duc de Normandie et sa Cour (912-1204) (Paris, 1910), 281.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3440081;view=1up;seq=305
>
> I'm still none the wiser about Hugh Pantulf le Tort (the wrong one?).
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
-------------------------------
>
> Universis Sancte Matris Ecclesie filiis ad quos presens carta pervenerit, Henricus de Ferrariis salutem. Notum sit vobis quod Ego H(enricus) de Ferrariis reddidi Willelmo de Boketot qui habet in uxorem Johannam filiam Hugonis Pantof heredem de Sameele omne tenementum de Sameele integre cum omnibus pertinentes suis in boscho et plano, in elemosinis et in omnibus aliis rebus, ad precem domini R(icardi) Regis Anglie et pro ducentis libris Andegavensium quas propter hoc mihi dedit, sicut Hugo Pantof le Tort de Auberi et Hugo Pantof filius ejus iidem tenementum habuerunt et tenuerunt. Tenendum ipsi et heredibus ejus per tale servicium quale dicti H(ugo) Pantof le Tort, et H(ugo) filius ejus fecerunt dominis et heredibus de Sapo, et sicut recognitum fuit ad Scacarium domini Regis apud Cadomum, coram Willelmo fiiio Radulfi, tunc senescallo Normannie et coram Baronibus domini Regis, per juramentum plurium legitimerum militum et vavassorum. Et ut factum istud ratum et firmum in futuris temporibus habeatur, id presenti carta et sigilli mei munimine confirmavi. Testibus his: Roberto abbate Sancti Andree, Ricardo Servain, Radulfo Abbate, justiciis domini Regis, Henrico Folins, Walquelino de Ferrariis, Hugone de Ferrariis, Gilleberto Malesmains, Roberto de Mortuo mari, Arturo de Sapo et aliis pluribus.
Lucien Valin, ed., Le Duc de Normandie et sa Cour (912-1204) (Paris, 1910), 281.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3440081;view=1up;seq=305
>
> I'm still none the wiser about Hugh Pantulf le Tort (the wrong one?).
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
In Anglo-Norman 'tort' was an adjective meaning 'twisted, bent, distorted, deformed' (as well as 'wrongful' in a legal sense), and the by-name 'le Tort' described someone who was physically crippled or deformed in some way.
Matt Tompkins
Peter Stewart
Nov 10, 2017, 5:58:34 AM11/10/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 10-Nov-17 9:48 PM, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote:
> From: John Watson
>
> Sent: 10 November 2017 09:17
>> Here's a fuller version of the same charter:
>>
>> Universis Sancte Matris Ecclesie filiis ad quos presens carta pervenerit, Henricus de Ferrariis salutem. Notum sit vobis quod Ego H(enricus) de Ferrariis reddidi Willelmo de Boketot qui habet in uxorem Johannam filiam Hugonis Pantof heredem de Sameele omne tenementum de Sameele integre cum omnibus pertinentes suis in boscho et plano, in elemosinis et in omnibus aliis rebus, ad precem domini R(icardi) Regis Anglie et pro ducentis libris Andegavensium quas propter hoc mihi dedit, sicut Hugo Pantof le Tort de Auberi et Hugo Pantof filius ejus iidem tenementum habuerunt et tenuerunt. Tenendum ipsi et heredibus ejus per tale servicium quale dicti H(ugo) Pantof le Tort, et H(ugo) filius ejus fecerunt dominis et heredibus de Sapo, et sicut recognitum fuit ad Scacarium domini Regis apud Cadomum, coram Willelmo fiiio Radulfi, tunc senescallo Normannie et coram Baronibus domini Regis, per juramentum plurium legitimerum militum et vavassorum. Et ut factum istud ratum et firmum in futuris temporibus habeatur, id presenti carta et sigilli mei munimine confirmavi. Testibus his: Roberto abbate Sancti Andree, Ricardo Servain, Radulfo Abbate, justiciis domini Regis, Henrico Folins, Walquelino de Ferrariis, Hugone de Ferrariis, Gilleberto Malesmains, Roberto de Mortuo mari, Arturo de Sapo et aliis pluribus.
> Lucien Valin, ed., Le Duc de Normandie et sa Cour (912-1204) (Paris, 1910), 281.
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3440081;view=1up;seq=305
>> I'm still none the wiser about Hugh Pantulf le Tort (the wrong one?).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> Universis Sancte Matris Ecclesie filiis ad quos presens carta pervenerit, Henricus de Ferrariis salutem. Notum sit vobis quod Ego H(enricus) de Ferrariis reddidi Willelmo de Boketot qui habet in uxorem Johannam filiam Hugonis Pantof heredem de Sameele omne tenementum de Sameele integre cum omnibus pertinentes suis in boscho et plano, in elemosinis et in omnibus aliis rebus, ad precem domini R(icardi) Regis Anglie et pro ducentis libris Andegavensium quas propter hoc mihi dedit, sicut Hugo Pantof le Tort de Auberi et Hugo Pantof filius ejus iidem tenementum habuerunt et tenuerunt. Tenendum ipsi et heredibus ejus per tale servicium quale dicti H(ugo) Pantof le Tort, et H(ugo) filius ejus fecerunt dominis et heredibus de Sapo, et sicut recognitum fuit ad Scacarium domini Regis apud Cadomum, coram Willelmo fiiio Radulfi, tunc senescallo Normannie et coram Baronibus domini Regis, per juramentum plurium legitimerum militum et vavassorum. Et ut factum istud ratum et firmum in futuris temporibus habeatur, id presenti carta et sigilli mei munimine confirmavi. Testibus his: Roberto abbate Sancti Andree, Ricardo Servain, Radulfo Abbate, justiciis domini Regis, Henrico Folins, Walquelino de Ferrariis, Hugone de Ferrariis, Gilleberto Malesmains, Roberto de Mortuo mari, Arturo de Sapo et aliis pluribus.
> Lucien Valin, ed., Le Duc de Normandie et sa Cour (912-1204) (Paris, 1910), 281.
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3440081;view=1up;seq=305
>> I'm still none the wiser about Hugh Pantulf le Tort (the wrong one?).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John
>>
> -------------------------------
> In Anglo-Norman 'tort' was an adjective meaning 'twisted, bent, distorted, deformed' (as well as 'wrongful' in a legal sense), and the by-name 'le Tort' described someone who was physically crippled or deformed in some way.
"Tort" can still have the meaning "damaged" or "injured" in modern
> In Anglo-Norman 'tort' was an adjective meaning 'twisted, bent, distorted, deformed' (as well as 'wrongful' in a legal sense), and the by-name 'le Tort' described someone who was physically crippled or deformed in some way.
French, but I would expect someone who was called by this as a byname
from physical appearance would have it used more consistently than in
the case of Hugh Pantulf, and probably throughout life (Hugh lived to be
over 90 years old) rather than only after a stint as a hopelessly bad
administrator. Janet Meisel doesn't even mention it.
Peter Stewart
John Watson
Nov 10, 2017, 6:11:12 AM11/10/17
to
Regards,
John
Peter Stewart
Nov 10, 2017, 6:57:07 AM11/10/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
without qualification - also William de Bouquetot appears to have been
around the same age as Hugo the elder's children and was probably too
substantial a figure to be the son-in-law of a mere younger son of the
lord of Wem. Hugo was evidently born by the early 1130s, since he was in
his mid-90s when he died in 1224, but perhaps didn't have his children
until the 1170s. Two of his younger sons (Ivo and Hugo) were granted the
manor of Stottesden by King John in 1205. Janet Meisel did not mention
any offspring for either of them.
Peter Stewart
Jason Quick
Nov 10, 2017, 5:49:43 PM11/10/17
to
Thank You for the additional information Gentleman.
I also have been trying to disseminate the origins of the Trian family of Oxenton, Glouc. and Brampton, Northants, that interconnect with William Bouquetot, Joane Pantof and Phillip Aubigny.
From John's previous posted charters its seems William Trian and his Son Robert were somehow under the Dive family of Brampton,Northamptonshire and Robert Trian was under wardship of Phillip and Joan in 1207.
In France there is a family called Trihan from Deauville and Bourgeauville. Both are close to Dives-sur-mer. In the book Statistique monumentale du Calvados: Arrondissement de Pont-l'Évèque, Volume 4 pg 94 .. It alludes to this "Trihan" family being under the sargeantry of Dives. I wonder if this is the same family?
https://books.google.com/books?id=73xVAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA94&dq=%22trihan%22+%22dives%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJpJCJhbXXAhUkxoMKHRseB0AQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=%22trihan%22%20%22dives%22&f=false
I also have been trying to disseminate the origins of the Trian family of Oxenton, Glouc. and Brampton, Northants, that interconnect with William Bouquetot, Joane Pantof and Phillip Aubigny.
From John's previous posted charters its seems William Trian and his Son Robert were somehow under the Dive family of Brampton,Northamptonshire and Robert Trian was under wardship of Phillip and Joan in 1207.
In France there is a family called Trihan from Deauville and Bourgeauville. Both are close to Dives-sur-mer. In the book Statistique monumentale du Calvados: Arrondissement de Pont-l'Évèque, Volume 4 pg 94 .. It alludes to this "Trihan" family being under the sargeantry of Dives. I wonder if this is the same family?
https://books.google.com/books?id=73xVAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA94&dq=%22trihan%22+%22dives%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJpJCJhbXXAhUkxoMKHRseB0AQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=%22trihan%22%20%22dives%22&f=false
Jordan Vandenberg
Nov 12, 2017, 1:10:06 PM11/12/17
to
Just trying to get up to speed on the discussion. Is the Hugh de Pantulf (father of Joan whom married Phillip d'Aubigny and William de Buketot) being discussed, the same Hugh de Pantulf, 4th Baron of Wem, High Sheriff of Shropshire whom married Christina FitzAlan? And is he the son of Ivo de Pantulf and Aline de Verdun?
Thanks,
Jordan.
Thanks,
Jordan.
Peter Stewart
Nov 12, 2017, 4:56:13 PM11/12/17
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 13-Nov-17 5:10 AM, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> Just trying to get up to speed on the discussion. Is the Hugh de Pantulf (father of Joan whom married Phillip d'Aubigny and William de Buketot) being discussed, the same Hugh de Pantulf, 4th Baron of Wem, High Sheriff of Shropshire whom married Christina FitzAlan? And is he the son of Ivo de Pantulf and Aline de Verdun?
Yes and No - this is the Hugh Pantulf whom I suppose to have been Joan's
> Just trying to get up to speed on the discussion. Is the Hugh de Pantulf (father of Joan whom married Phillip d'Aubigny and William de Buketot) being discussed, the same Hugh de Pantulf, 4th Baron of Wem, High Sheriff of Shropshire whom married Christina FitzAlan? And is he the son of Ivo de Pantulf and Aline de Verdun?
father, but I think you have her marriages in reverse order and William
de Bouquetot was her first husband; also Hugh was son of Ivo by his
first wife, and so a step-son of Alice de Verdon who was Ivo's second
wife according to *Domesday Descendants*. Hugh married Christina
Fitzalan in 1170 according to Janet Meisel.
Peter Stewart
Jordan Vandenberg
Nov 12, 2017, 7:03:11 PM11/12/17
to
Thanks Peter for the corrections and clarification.
Jordan.
Jordan.
John Watson
Nov 12, 2017, 10:13:10 PM11/12/17
to
On the other hand, Philip d' Aubigny and his wife Joan were acting as guardians of Robert Trian in a court case in 1207 when Philip and Joan, on behalf of Robert, sued Henry, son of Henry de Dive, concerning tenements in Bramton [Church Brampton, Northamptonshire] and in Northampton. A final concord (temp. Hen. II) between William father of Robert Trian and Henry father of Henry de Dive as to tenements in Chapel Brampton and Northampton was submitted in evidence. Philip and Joan were also presumably instrumental in arranging the marriage of Eustache Trian to Philip's nephew Robert de Neville. All of which points to the possibility that Joan was the mother of Robert and Eustache Trian.
Joan may have had a sister Julian. In 1211, Philip de Haudenby [Haldenby] and Julian his wife, who held certain lands here [Haldenby] which, after her death, should descend as his inheritance to Robert Trian, her nephew, were summoned for endeavouring to defraud the said Robert by the adoption of a child, and passing it as their son and heir. Philip and Julian were accordingly adjudged to forfeit the fee, and seizin thereof was given to Robert Trian.
Albert Hartshorne, "Holdenby, Northamptonshire; Its Manors, Church and House," The Archaeological Journal, vol. 65 (London, 1908), 92.
The question is, would two daughters of Hugh Pantulf marry such insignificant men as William Trian and Philip de Haldenby?
Regards,
John
Jason Quick
Nov 13, 2017, 2:38:15 PM11/13/17
to
Dear John
Maybe William Trian’s wife and Julian were sisters but were from the Dive family? I think the small fee in Brampton was given to the Trian family from a suit from Henry de Dive as he was a supposed Lord of Oxenton while Robert Trian was a minor.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofbed19blay#page/20/mode/2up/search/trogeant In the Visitation of Bedfordshire pg. 21 Harleain MS 2109 "Be it noted that this Henry Dyve kylled a servant of Sr Robert Trogeant, by reason wherof all his lands wer confiscate and his lyfe was at the Kinge's pleasure : which was in the tyme of Kinge Stephen, who gave the sayde Henry Dyve body landes and goodes vnto the sayd Sr Robert Trogeant, knight, chamberleyne to the sayd kinge. And the sayd Trogeant did gyve vnto the sayd Henry Dyve haulf of Brampton Parva and no more." (Ita se habet textus) Harl. MS. 2109 commences thus:
George Baker states the same thing in The Antiquities of Northampton Vol 1 pg. 83 He got this from Lansdowne MSS 799 folio 67b. but calls the family Treaunt. Too bad we don’t have an original document to look at.
The Estate Book of Henry de Bray pg. 95 Lans. 761 63b https://archive.org/stream/estatebookofhenr00bray#page/94/mode/2up States that Henry de Dive was the lord of Oxenton
De antecessoribus Johannis Dyve de Brampton
(1)Dominus Henricus de Dyve fuit dominus de utroque Brampton et in comitatu Gloucestriae fuit dominus de Oxendone Tilmantone et Horsebordene. Ipse dominus Henricus dedit quartam partem de Chirche Brampton cum advocatione ecclesiae ejusdem Pouncy Picot in liberum maritagium curn lilia sua. De Pouncy Picot venit Thomas. De Thoma venit Petrus. De Petro venit Johannes. Qui Johannes vendidit totum dominiurn de Brampton cum advocatione Magistro Petro de Lek tune reetori ejusdem, et ipse Magister Petrus similiter vendidit domino Roberto Peverel. Postea Alicia lilia et heres domini Galfridi Darmenters domini de Kislingburia reeuperavit per judieium versus Robertum Peverel praedietum tenementum quod Petrus pater Johannis Picot inde feofavit praedictum Galfridum ratione matrimonii placiti inter eos. Et dictus Galfridus postea non se de- misit. De Alicia venit Warinus de Insula. De Warino Girardus. Dominus Henricus Dyve supradictus oecidit servientem dicti Roberti Treaunt camerarii domini regis, pro eo quod equitavit ultra blada ipsius Henrici Dyve, et pro dicta occisione dominus rex dedit dicto Roberto Treaunt corpus dicti domini Henrici et omnes terras suas. Et postea idem Robertus Treant dedit dicto domino Henrico medietatem de Brampton parva. Anna soror et heres praedicti Roberti Treaunt desponsata Radulpho de la Hay. De Radulpho de la Hay Huelyna filia et heres desponsata domino Roberto de Nevyle. Philippus, Robertus, Philippus qui nunc est. (1) Cf. Abbrev. Plac. p. 39; Testa de Nevill, p. 26; Add. Chart. 21630.
Maybe the meaning of Trian as it relates to Gloucester needs looed at more locally. Througham was spelled Truham, Troham or Truan. Looks like a Hardwin de Troham was lord in Henry I and his son Richard in early John. But I could be grasping at straws .. Again
Curia Regis Rolls Richard 1-2 early John pg. 448 (snippets)
1201 Glouc: Ricardus de Troham positus loco Hardwini de Troham petit versus Robertum Achard' quod teneat finem factam in curia domini regis Henrici patris domini regis per cirographum, in quo continetur quod idem Ricardus (sic) quietam clamavit rationabilem partem suam j. hide terre et capitale mesagium in Troham inperpetuum et pro hac quieta clamantia idem Hardwinus quietum clamavit eidem Roberto et heredibus ejus servicium j. virgate terre in eadem villa, quam Willelmus filius Fulchonis tenuit de eo et unde Robertus et heredes ejus debeant adquietare ipsum Hardwinum et heredes suos de forinseco servicio quod pertinet ad illam virgatam terre et unde ipse pro defectu ejus reddidit iij. marcas de reragiss illius servic. Robertus.. snippet all I could get
Thanks Jason
Maybe William Trian’s wife and Julian were sisters but were from the Dive family? I think the small fee in Brampton was given to the Trian family from a suit from Henry de Dive as he was a supposed Lord of Oxenton while Robert Trian was a minor.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationsofbed19blay#page/20/mode/2up/search/trogeant In the Visitation of Bedfordshire pg. 21 Harleain MS 2109 "Be it noted that this Henry Dyve kylled a servant of Sr Robert Trogeant, by reason wherof all his lands wer confiscate and his lyfe was at the Kinge's pleasure : which was in the tyme of Kinge Stephen, who gave the sayde Henry Dyve body landes and goodes vnto the sayd Sr Robert Trogeant, knight, chamberleyne to the sayd kinge. And the sayd Trogeant did gyve vnto the sayd Henry Dyve haulf of Brampton Parva and no more." (Ita se habet textus) Harl. MS. 2109 commences thus:
George Baker states the same thing in The Antiquities of Northampton Vol 1 pg. 83 He got this from Lansdowne MSS 799 folio 67b. but calls the family Treaunt. Too bad we don’t have an original document to look at.
The Estate Book of Henry de Bray pg. 95 Lans. 761 63b https://archive.org/stream/estatebookofhenr00bray#page/94/mode/2up States that Henry de Dive was the lord of Oxenton
De antecessoribus Johannis Dyve de Brampton
(1)Dominus Henricus de Dyve fuit dominus de utroque Brampton et in comitatu Gloucestriae fuit dominus de Oxendone Tilmantone et Horsebordene. Ipse dominus Henricus dedit quartam partem de Chirche Brampton cum advocatione ecclesiae ejusdem Pouncy Picot in liberum maritagium curn lilia sua. De Pouncy Picot venit Thomas. De Thoma venit Petrus. De Petro venit Johannes. Qui Johannes vendidit totum dominiurn de Brampton cum advocatione Magistro Petro de Lek tune reetori ejusdem, et ipse Magister Petrus similiter vendidit domino Roberto Peverel. Postea Alicia lilia et heres domini Galfridi Darmenters domini de Kislingburia reeuperavit per judieium versus Robertum Peverel praedietum tenementum quod Petrus pater Johannis Picot inde feofavit praedictum Galfridum ratione matrimonii placiti inter eos. Et dictus Galfridus postea non se de- misit. De Alicia venit Warinus de Insula. De Warino Girardus. Dominus Henricus Dyve supradictus oecidit servientem dicti Roberti Treaunt camerarii domini regis, pro eo quod equitavit ultra blada ipsius Henrici Dyve, et pro dicta occisione dominus rex dedit dicto Roberto Treaunt corpus dicti domini Henrici et omnes terras suas. Et postea idem Robertus Treant dedit dicto domino Henrico medietatem de Brampton parva. Anna soror et heres praedicti Roberti Treaunt desponsata Radulpho de la Hay. De Radulpho de la Hay Huelyna filia et heres desponsata domino Roberto de Nevyle. Philippus, Robertus, Philippus qui nunc est. (1) Cf. Abbrev. Plac. p. 39; Testa de Nevill, p. 26; Add. Chart. 21630.
Maybe the meaning of Trian as it relates to Gloucester needs looed at more locally. Througham was spelled Truham, Troham or Truan. Looks like a Hardwin de Troham was lord in Henry I and his son Richard in early John. But I could be grasping at straws .. Again
Curia Regis Rolls Richard 1-2 early John pg. 448 (snippets)
1201 Glouc: Ricardus de Troham positus loco Hardwini de Troham petit versus Robertum Achard' quod teneat finem factam in curia domini regis Henrici patris domini regis per cirographum, in quo continetur quod idem Ricardus (sic) quietam clamavit rationabilem partem suam j. hide terre et capitale mesagium in Troham inperpetuum et pro hac quieta clamantia idem Hardwinus quietum clamavit eidem Roberto et heredibus ejus servicium j. virgate terre in eadem villa, quam Willelmus filius Fulchonis tenuit de eo et unde Robertus et heredes ejus debeant adquietare ipsum Hardwinum et heredes suos de forinseco servicio quod pertinet ad illam virgatam terre et unde ipse pro defectu ejus reddidit iij. marcas de reragiss illius servic. Robertus.. snippet all I could get
Thanks Jason
John Watson
Nov 15, 2017, 5:19:33 AM11/15/17
to
I think that Henry de Bray was very confused when he wrote that document concerning the ancestors of John de Dive of Brampton. Apart from the descent of a part of Brampton through the Picot family to Gerard de Lisle, the rest is nonsense. Robert Treaunt said to be the chamberlain of king Stephen? appears nowhere in the historical record. Robert Trian who died in 1214, left a sister and heir named Eustache (not Anna) who married firstly Robert Neville (d. c. 1220) and secondly Ralph de la Haye. Hugelina was the widow of Robert Trian, not the daughter of Ralph de la Haye.
Placitorum Abbreviato p. 39, concerns a dispute in 1205 between Hugh de Dive and Henry de Dive about one knight's fee in Brampton held by Henry of Hugh.
Testa de Neville (Record Commission) p. 26 says that Ralph de la Haye )(d. 1254) held one fee in Brampton and Henry de Dive held half a fee in Little Brampton, Northants.
Add. Chart. 21630 appears to be an inquisition into land holdings of the Honor of Leicester in the mid fourteenth century.
None of these references has anything to do with Oxenton, Gloucestershire, Tilmanstone, Kent or Horsmonden, Kent. The Dive family seems to have had no land holdings in any of them, despite Henry Bray saying that Henry de Dive was lord of these places.
Regards,
John
Jason Quick
Nov 15, 2017, 12:58:16 PM11/15/17
to
"Henry de Bray was very confused when he wrote that document"
John Thank You. I couldn't see the forest through the trees. The true logic of that statement just set me straight.
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