Two Ida Longespee's
Douglas Richardson
This past year, John Ravilious posted a query regarding the identity
of two women named Ida Longespee. One Ida Longespee married (lst)
Ralph de Somery and (2nd) William de Beauchamp, died 1260, Baron of
Bedford, co. Bedford. The other Ida Longespee was the wife of Walter
Fitz Robert, died 1258, Baron of Little Dunmow, Essex.
The first Ida Longespee is usually identified as the daughter of
William ongespee I, Earl of Salisbury, died 1226, by his wife, Ela of
Salisbury. That this is correct is proven by a fine dated Hilary, 4
Henry III (1220), in which William, Earl of Salisbury, granted the
manor of Belchamp, Essex to William de Beauchamp in marriage with his
daughter, Ida, who was the widow of Ralph de Somery [Reference: R.E.G.
Kirk, Feet of Fines for Essex, 1 (1899), pg. 58]. The manor of
Belchamp subsequently descended among the descendants of Ida de
Beauchamp's daughter, Beatrice.
As for the other Ida Longespee, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, the
evidence for her parentage comes from a slightly garbled pedigree of
the Longespee family found in the records of Lacock Abbey, in which
Ida is identified as the daughter of William Longespee I, Earl of
Salisbury. The pedigree discusses the children of William Longespee I
and states as follows:
"Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua
genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quae velatae erant apud Lacok; Elam,
quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum"
[Reference: William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 6, Pt. 1
(rev. ed., 1830): 501].
Gerald Paget, aware of the evidence for Ida Longespee who married
William de Beauchamp, evidently thought the existence of two daughters
both named Ida in the same generation was bothersome. He proposed
that the second Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, belonged as a child
in the next generation, being a daughter of William Longespee II, Earl
of Salisbury, by his wife, Idoine de Camville.
However, Paget overlooked the fact that Walter Fitz Robert was near in
age to William Longespee II. My sources show that Walter Fitz Robert
came of age in 1240 and that William Longespee II came of age in 1233.
Consequently, it seems highly unlikely that Walter Fitz Robert's wife
was the daughter of William Longespee II.
We can be reasonably sure that Walter Fitz Robert's wife, Ida, was the
sister, not daughter, of William Longespee II due to other
chronological considerations. Walter Fitz Robert and Ida Longespee's
daughter, Ela d'Odingsells, had four daughters, the youngest of which,
Margaret, is known to have been born in 1277. If Margaret
d'Odingsells's grandmother, Ida Longespee, was the daughter of William
Longespee I and his wife, Ela, then we should be able to find some
agreement with the 85 year rule of thumb I employ for three
generations. My research indicates that Ela, wife of William
Longespee I, was born 1190/1194, which puts 83 to 87 years between her
and Margaret d'Odingsells. This time span for three generations is
exactly what one would expect if Margaret d'Odingsells was the
great-granddaughter of Ela, wife of William Longespee I.
In summation, it is clear there were two Ida Longespee's, not one.
Concrete evidence is available which proves that the elder Ida, wife
of William de Beauchamp, was definitely the daughter of William
Longespee I. And sufficient evidence is availble which indicates
that the younger Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was likewise the
daughter of William Longespee I.
Lastly, I should note that Complete Peerage sub Salisbury errs in
identifying the younger Ida Longespee's husband, Walter Fitz Robert,
as the son of son of Robert Fitz Philip [Reference: CP, 11 (1949):
381, footnote k]. It appears there were two contemporary men both
named Walter Fitz Robert's. Walter Fitz Robert, son of Robert Fitz
Philip, appears in an Essex fine dated 1233/4 [Reference: Feet of
Fines for Essex, 1:97]. However, he was evidently a separate and
distinct individual from the Walter Fitz Robert who married Ida
Longespee.
The second Walter Fitz Robert was the son of Robert Fitz Walter, the
Magna Carta baron. I show that this Walter and his wife, Ida, appear
together in an Essex fine dated 1256/7 regarding a messuage and land
in Little Maldon, Essex [Reference: Feet of Fines for Essex, 1:
221-222]. The IPM of their grandson, Sir Robert Fitz Walter, dated
1328 shows that at his death, he possessed a half a knight's fee in
Maldon, Essex [Reference: Cal. IPM, 7 (1909): 126-129]. The name,
Ida, occurs among the descendants of this family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>Tuesday, 25 September, 2001
>
>
>Hello Douglas,
>
> I was glad to see your post on your de Herdeburghe-Longespee discovery,
>and also Rosie's followup (re: the De Banco Roll information)
supporting your
>findings.
>
> From your post, I take it that the forthcoming PA (3rd edition) is going
>to expand beyond the earlier framework, including earlier (pre-Henry
III)
>Plantagenet 'cadet' or collateral lines, and even (e.g. Longespee)
>illegitimate lines? This is going to create quite a large work
(possibly 2
>volumes ?), not to mention the large amount of work you must have
done, as
>well as have ahead of you yet......
>
> One area I am hoping to 'straighten out', for which this is a very good
>time and place, is the Longespee family - this came to mind from your
>notation of Ela de Herdeburgh's Longespee ancestry at the end of your
post.
>I believe John S. Gordon coined the title for William Longespee, Earl
of
>Salisbury, as 'the Kilroy of medieval English ancestry' [or words to
that
>effect], and his presence in the ancestry of many/most on this list
should
>testify to the accuracy (sans Irish connections) of this designation.
>
> The problem I have is one noted elsewhere: Ida Longespee, daughter of
>William, is variously held to have been the wife of Roger de Somery
(d.
>1220), William Beauchamp of Bedford (d. 1260) and Walter fitz Robert
(d.
>before 10 Apr 1258). While not impossible to have acquired this
number of
>husbands over a large number of years, I find a chronological problem
not
>only with the mixture of husbands and dates but also with the same
woman,
>born say 1205, producing children by Walter fitz Robert ca. 1247 (Sir
Robert
>fitz Walter) and ca. 1250 (my date for Ela, sister of Sir Robert and
wife of
>William d'Odingsells) - not impossible, but problematic given the
'related'
>issues.
>
> The following is my 'preferred' presentation of the Longespee family
>[proposed resolution of the 'Ida problem' noted between asterisks,
***
>***] :
>
>............
>
>.1. William Longespee, illeg. son of Henry II, King of England; Earl
of
>Salisbury 1196; d. 7 Mar 1225/26; m. Ela, Countess of Salisbury.
Issue:
>
>..1. Sir William Longespee, sometime styled Earl of Salisbury (but
never
>invested); d. Mansurah, Egypt 7 Feb 1249/50; m. Idoine de Camville.
Issue:
>
>.....1. Ela Longespee, m. Sir James de Audley of Heleigh, co.
Stafford (d. 11
>Jun 1272) [ISSUE]
>.....2. Sir William Longespee, d. 1257; m. Maud de Clifford. Issue:
>
>.......1. Margaret Longespee, de jure Countess of Salisbury; d. bef
16 Jun
>1310; m. Henry de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln [NO EXTANT ISSUE]
>
>.....3. *** Ida Longespee, b. say 1225-1230; m. Walter fitz Robert of
Dunmow,
>Essex & c.; d. before 10 Apr 1258 [ISSUE: descendants via Sir Robert
fitz
>Walter, lst Lord FitzWalter, and Ela, wife of William
d'Odingsells]***
>
>...2. Stephen Longespee, Seneschal of Gascony and Justiciar of
Ireland; d.
>before 1276; m. Emmeline de Riddlesford. Issue:
>
>.....1. Emmeline Longespee, m. Maurice fitz Maurice, of Offaly [NO
KNOWN
>ISSUE]
>.....2. Ela Longespee, m. Roger la Zouche, lst Lord Zouche of Ashby
[ISSUE]
>
>...3. ***Ida Longespee, b. say 1205; d. after 1262; m. 1) Ralph de
Somery, of
>Dudley, co. Worcester (d.s.p. before 1220); m. 2) as second wife,
William de
>Beauchamp, of Bedford; d. ca. 1260. Issue:
>
>.....1. Maud de Beauchamp, m. Roger de Mowbray of Thirsk; d. ca. Nov
1266
>[ISSUE]
>.....2. Ela de Beauchamp; d. before 1267
>.....3. Beatrice de Beauchamp; d. ca. 1281 ***
>
>(NOTE: sources for the above, primarily CP under Mowbray, Salisbury,
and
>FitzWalter; also Alan Wilson's posts re: Lanvallei-Mowbray-Beauchamp)
>
>.......................
>
> This presentation appears to deal with the marital problems created by
>the 'One Ida' approach; the resolution of Ida Longespee's dower from
William
>de Beauchamp in 1262 (with her stepson, William de Beauchamp of
Bedford, son
>of Gunnora de Lanvallei); and the birth of Robert fitz Walter, ca.
1247 to a
>mother aged ca. 17 to 22, and not to one aged ca. 42.
>
> The primary issue with the above is, of course, that I have found no
>explicit mention of an Ida Longespee as daughter of Sir William
Longespee and
>Idoine de Camville. If any other of the list has information that
would
>support or detract from the above, such information or criticism is
of course
>welcome.
>
> Good luck, and good hunting.
>
> John
>