Scrope genealogy? ? ?

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Ray Jenkins

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Mar 6, 2001, 3:35:00 PM3/6/01
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I'm seeking information on John Scrope Jones Sandford, b. 1625, Bolton,
Lancashire, England; d. 1665 in the Plague.

The www.familysearch.org website lists him as the illegitimate son of
Emmanuel Scrope, who was of a family of English gentry.

Would appreciate any suggestions about how to verify and enlarge upon this
information.

If it helps, he was the father of Katherine Sandford, b. Aug. 9, 1652,
Gloucestershire, England; d. aft. 1684, Virginia.


Ian Cairns

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Mar 6, 2001, 4:44:23 PM3/6/01
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"Ray Jenkins" <RayJe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:URbp6.7221$Ey1.4...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> I'm seeking information on John Scrope Jones Sandford, b. 1625, Bolton,
> Lancashire, England; d. 1665 in the Plague.
>
> The www.familysearch.org website lists him as the illegitimate son of
> Emmanuel Scrope, who was of a family of English gentry.
>
> Would appreciate any suggestions about how to verify and enlarge upon this
> information.

First of all you need to differentiate between Ancestral File (AF) and the
International Genealogical Index (IGI) which are both available from the
above website. In my experience, the IGI is gleaned almost entirely from
keying original Parish Records - hence fairly reliable (sometimes the parish
is misquoted); the Ancestral File is submitted by researchers and its
reliability is entirely dependent on the quality of the original research.
In this case, there is no IGI entry for the person you mention. But there is
a AF entry. As a result you will need to contact the submitters directly to
verify their sources, and find out what they know now.

Of course, someone else in this newsgroup may be able to identify the
original records...

I was caught out by this some time back. I found an AF entry describing an
ELIOT family I was researching. This in turn referred to an old Mormon book,
whose microfilm I subsequently obtained - to find all the correct names and
family relationships, but the baptism details were well out. The original
records were much more helpful (not to say more accurate)

> If it helps, he was the father of Katherine Sandford, b. Aug. 9, 1652,
> Gloucestershire, England; d. aft. 1684, Virginia.

Here is the list of submitters for / from your entry:

Submitter(s):
MEDIEVAL FAMILIES Microfilm: NONE
C/O FAMILY HISTORY DEPARTMENT
50 E NORTH TEMPLE STREET
SALT LAKE CITY, UT Submission:
USA 84150

GENEALOGICAL DEPARTMENT MEDIEVAL FAMILIES UNIT Microfilm: 1394500
50 EAST NORTH TEMPLE
SALT LAKE CITY UT Submission:
USA 84150

MEDIEVAL FAMILIES Microfilm: NONE
C/O FAMILY HISTORY DEPARTMENT
50 E NORTH TEMPLE STREET
SALT LAKE CITY UT Submission:
USA 84150

MEDIEVAL FAMILIES Microfilm: NONE
C/O FAMILY HISTORY DEPARTMENT
50 E NORTH TEMPLE STREET
SALT LAKE CITY UT Submission:
USA 84150

NANCY RUTH WALDO CLEMENT Microfilm: NONE
9 COLLIER STREET
ST CATHERINES, ONT
CANADA L2P2R9 Submission:

FAMILY HISTORY DEPARTMENT MEDIEVAL FAMILIES PROJECT Microfilm: NONE
C/O JEANNE TAYLOR
2550 ROWLAND DRIVE
SALT LAKE CITY UT Submission:
USA 84124

MARVENE MICHAEL Microfilm: NONE
3010 RYAN AVE
SANTA CLARA CA Submission:
95051-5532

BRENT WALLACE RUESCH Microfilm: NONE
3429 W 3440 S
WEST VALLEY CITY UT Submission:
USA 84119

<end of list>


Ian Cairns

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Mar 6, 2001, 5:25:48 PM3/6/01
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Just a thought... given that SCROPE is a fairly unusual surname (well, it is
in my genealogy), you might wish to investigate a possible connection to
Scroope EGERTON (11 Aug 1681 - 11 Jan 1745), the 1st Duke of Bridgewater,
the 4th Earl of Bridgewater, who married the Duke of Marlborough's daughter
Elizabeth - IIRC. It's not obvious to me where this forename came from -
although someone in here will probably enlighten us.

Ian

"Ian Cairns" <ne...@cairnsfamily.org> wrote in message
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Ray Jenkins

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Mar 6, 2001, 5:48:29 PM3/6/01
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Ian --

Thanks so much for your very detailed response to my posting. Interestingly,
I had already picked up from some other source the Scroope EGERTON
connection.

As a newcomer to this genealogy business, I find it rather daunting. But I
shall persevere.

-- Ray

"Ian Cairns" <ne...@cairnsfamily.org> wrote in message

news:983917557.26405.0...@news.demon.co.uk...

Ian Cairns

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Mar 6, 2001, 6:14:05 PM3/6/01
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It would appear that Emanuel SCROPE was created Earl of Sunderland between
1627 and 1630, but that the title expired with him, if you believe
everything you read in Burke's Peerage and Baronetage. The title Earl of
Sunderland is nowadays associated with the Dukes of Marlborough. There's
obviously more here for the investigating....

Regards
Ian

"Ray Jenkins" <RayJe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

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William Addams Reitwiesner

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Mar 6, 2001, 10:15:47 PM3/6/01
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"Ray Jenkins" <RayJe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

See the second edition of Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*, vol. XI (1949), pp.
550-552 for the career of this Emmanuel Scrope, 11th Lord Scrope of Bolton
and 1st Earl of Sunderland. Born in 1584 and died in 1630, he married (in
1609) a daughter of the Earl of Rutland, and had no children by her. By
his servant, Martha Janes, or Jeanes, or Jones, or Sandford, he had four
bastard children, listed in note (d) on page 551. The reason these
bastards are so well known is that the Earl, by a settlement dated 20 May
1629, gave as much of his estates as he could to these illegitimate
children of his.

Three of his bastards were daughters, and the son was John Scrope,
otherwise Jones, otherwise Sandford, who was under age in March of 1645/6.
Unfortunately this John could not have been the John Sandford who was
father of Katherine Sandford, as this John died of the plague, not in 1665,
but much earlier. He was buried in Covent Garden Church on 31 July 1646,
more than six years before Katherine was born, and left no children.


William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."

Renia

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Mar 6, 2001, 9:20:58 PM3/6/01
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By Emanuel Scorpe, presumably you mean Lord Scrope of Bolton, bb 15 Agu 1584
at Hunsdon, Herts. He married, before 1609, Elizabeth, 3rd dau of John
(Manners) 4th Earl of Rutland, and dsp legit 30 May 1630, aged 45, and was
buried in York. He had 4 basterd children by Martha Janes (or Jeanes or
Jones), otherwise Sandford, "his servant dau of a poor taylor living in
Twifield Heath, Bucks". They were:
1. John Scrope, otherwise Jones, otherwise Sandford (under age in March
1645/6) who held Bolton Castle for the King and dsp (i.e. leaving no issue) of
the plague, buried 31 July 1646 in Covent Garden Church.
2 Mary who m 1stly Henry Carey, styled Lord Leppington (dvp 1649) and m 2ndly
Charles (Powlett) 6th Marquess of Winchester who was cr 1689 Duke of Bolton.
She inherited the Bolotn estates and died 1680.
3. Elizabeth who m Thomas (Savage) 3rd Earl Rivers
4 Annabella, b 1629, m John Grubham Howe
[Source: The Complete Peerage]

If you hunt around the site below, you will find more info on the Scropes of
Bolton and Masham.

Castles Abbeys and Medieval Buildings

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mwcook

Renia

JimHS

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Mar 7, 2001, 2:55:29 AM3/7/01
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Hi, Everyone.

"Ian Cairns" <ne...@cairnsfamily.org> wrote in message

news:983917557.26405.0...@news.demon.co.uk...


> Just a thought... given that SCROPE is a fairly unusual surname (well, it
is
> in my genealogy), you might wish to investigate a possible connection to
> Scroope EGERTON (11 Aug 1681 - 11 Jan 1745), the 1st Duke of Bridgewater,
> the 4th Earl of Bridgewater, who married the Duke of Marlborough's
daughter
> Elizabeth - IIRC. It's not obvious to me where this forename came from -
> although someone in here will probably enlighten us.
>

I've been in touch with Roy about his question already, which is how I
arrived here from soc.genealogy.britain.

Yes, Scroope is an unusual surname. As Ian said, there are also some with
it as a first name.

I gather from several sources that the Scrope surname is connected to
Scroope Egerton by a much earlier (14th century?) marriage between the (Le)
Scrope family and the Egerton family of places including Cheshire.

I would suspect the information to be somewhat spurious, were it not for the
presence of Scroop, with or without the 'e', as a first name and the still
common practice of naming children using significant family surnames.

My interest in this comes from my US wife's maternal line - Edgerton or
Egerton; the surname has been subjected to various variations in spelling
between the 1750's and the late 1800's. Two male twigs on that tree are:
Scroop Egerton, bat 1746-1788 (father John Egerton, born abt 1705 in
Virginia)
Scroop Edgerton 1807-1893
Both are in North Carolina.

Scroop(e) as a male first name continued in a Scroop Enloe (died May 8
1885) who was a son of an Enloe/Egerton marriage of 1795. There were three
more in the Enloe tree, the most recent (as far as I know) having died in
December 1999 in western NC.

The male first name Scroop, then, has persisted in this general family for
some hundreds of years, but it is the one of 1746, named as he was, that
seems to point to a possible family connection with the English Egerton
family - in or out of legitimacy.

It's been impossible to locate facts which would point conclusively to the
family's origin in the British Isles, 17th and 18th century records being
what they are in this part of the SE USA.

The convolutions don't stop there, although some are probably wishful
thinking and others coincidental. I'll leave you to guess which; they
include the Abe Lincoln/Nancy Hanks illegitimate connection with the
Enloe-Egerton marriage above, and the other being my strong connection with
a small village in Cheshire which also has a connection with some of my
wife's probable 16th C. ancestors.

Back to the main subject, though, which was prompted by the original post.

I'm aware of much of the history of the Egerton family in the UK, and in the
US to the 18th century.
If anyone here has some hard information which would help towards finding
the origins of the Scroop Egerton line of Virginia and North Carolina, I
would appreciate it. It does not matter whether there is a connection with
a titled family or not.

It hardly needs to be said that any information I have that might help
others will be given freely.

Thanks.
--
JimHS
-----
My email account is at rfci dot net, addressed to jims

Names: Battle/Battaille (VA), Bennett, Edgerton/Egerton, Farr, Hilton,
Nicholson (VA), Stretch, Wales etc.


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