Alexander de St. Quintin - Will 30 April 1257; William de St. Quintin - Will 25 July 1300

[Jan]

The catalog of the Yorkshire Archaeological Society includes listings for the

Will of Sir Alexander de St Quintin, MD229/141, 30 April 1257,
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=207-md229&cid=4-1#4-1

and the

Will of Sir William de St Quintin, knight, MD229/142, 25 July 1300,
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=207-md229&cid=4-2#4-2

For both wills, the catalog descriptions say "many detailed bequests." I'd like to know if these wills name the children and/or other relatives of the testators. If anyone has transcribed the images or found abstracts or transcriptions of these wills, please post what the wills say.

The Lincolnshire Visitation of 1562-1564 (p. 72) and Lincolnshire Pedigrees (p. 555) both show Margery, daughter of Sir William St. Quinton of Harpham, Yorkshire, as the wife of Walter Kelke.

Walter Kelke and Margery were married before 13 July 1312, as shown in C.V. Collier, “Document at Burton Angnes,” The Transactions of the East Riding Antiquarian Society 18 (1910–11):69,
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101073858548;view=1up;seq=87
which abstracts a grant as follows:

"Thursday after the Translation of S. Thos., Martyr, 1312. Grant in tail by Roger de Somervyle, Lord of Burton Annays, to Walter de Kelk and Margery his wife, of a plat of turbary and marsh in Burton Annays called Thorneholm Ker, lying in length between the field of Grauncemor called Thornholm, and the head capud) of Milnebergh towards the north, and in breadth between the … (tert’am) of Milneberg, and the fields of Little Kelk and Great Kelk as appears by the meets and bounds placed there, and also a plat of meadow called Whithulle, as it lay near the field of Grauncemor called Thorneholm on the west, at a yearly rent of 20s. Power to the grantees to spread (ad spargendam) dry and stack (tassandam) their turves in the said turbury and marsh on the grantor’s … (tert’am) of Milneberg. Witnesses—Sir John de Heselarton, Sir Geoffrey de St Quintin, Sir Robert de Boynton, Kts.; William de Schirburn, John de Schirburn, Teobald de Brigham, Robert de Sywardby, William Mahew of Langtoft, Richard de Lascy, John Hirnyng, Norman de Kernetby, John de Gemelying.—Burton Annays”

This grant is also abstracted at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=047-ddx852&cid=1#1

The Kelke pedigrees are available at

Walter C. Metcalfe, ed., The Visitation of the County of Lincoln in 1562-4 (London: George Bell & Sons, 1881), 72,
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00cook#page/n153/mode/2up

and

A.R. Maddison, ed., Lincolnshire Pedigrees, vol. 2 (London: The Publications of the Harlieian Society, 1903), 555,
http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA555

[Steve Riggan]

Thanks for this information. Walter Kelke and Margery St Quinton were ancestral to my grandmother through William Farrar of Virginia. Another link for reference on the Kelkes which you likely already have: http://books.google.com/books?id=raNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA555&lpg=PA555&dq=walter+kelke&source=bl&ots=rXSqdPmFQL&sig=t3p0wcNosHd4_IXEZiSYhO1NEeA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V_CFUfiHLci6iwKz-oDYDQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA

Steve Riggan

Sent from my iPhone

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[Steve Riggan]

I should have read the email further. I see that you already had that link listed. Apologies for the duplication.

Steve Riggan


Sent from my iPhone

On May 4, 2013, at 5:10 PM, "Jan" <janw...@umich.edu> wrote:

[Matt Tompkins]

On May 5, 1:07 am, Jan <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
> The catalog of the Yorkshire Archaeological Society includes listings for the
>

> Will of Sir Alexander de St Quintin, MD229/141, 30 April 1257,http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=207-md229&cid...
>
> and the
>
> Will of Sir William de St Quintin, knight, MD229/142, 25 July 1300,http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=207-md229&cid...

>
> For both wills, the catalog descriptions say "many detailed bequests." I'd like to know if these wills name the children and/or other relatives of the testators. If anyone has transcribed the images or found abstracts or transcriptions of these wills, please post what the wills say.
>

The following old article, if you can find a copy, might be
informative:

W. Brown, 'Old wills from Harpham preserved at Scampston, 13th-16th
century' Transactions of the East Riding Antiquarian Society 21
(1915), pp. 70-9.

It has been footnoted for statements that the 1257 will of Sir
Alexander de St Quintin has a bequest to the Franciscan friars at
Scarborough, and also that a later 1397 will of Sir John de St Quintin
mentions his former wife Lora and his present wife Agnes.

Matt Tompkins

[Jan]

On Sunday, May 5, 2013 4:03:12 AM UTC-4, Matt Tompkins wrote:
>
> The following old article, if you can find a copy, might be
> informative:
>
> W. Brown, 'Old wills from Harpham preserved at Scampston, 13th-16th
> century' Transactions of the East Riding Antiquarian Society 21
> (1915), pp. 70-9.
>
> It has been footnoted for statements that the 1257 will of Sir
> Alexander de St Quintin has a bequest to the Franciscan friars at
> Scarborough, and also that a later 1397 will of Sir John de St Quintin
> mentions his former wife Lora and his present wife Agnes.
>
> Matt Tompkins

Thanks. Another reader sent me the image of a typescript he had received of the transcription (really an abstract) of Alexander's 1257 will, citing the journal article. I ordered a copy of the journal from a library this morning, so hopefully I'll soon see if the article includes the 1300 will of William de St. Quintin, too.

The 1257 will abstract does name Alexander's wife Margery, 10 sons and daughters, and 3 siblings. Most of the names agree with the pedigree in the book about Holderness except Richard is named 4th and then a John before Thomas and Hugh, and Robert, Anthony, and Ralph are not named.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fQQVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA268
George Poulson, The history and Antiquities of the Seigniory of Holderness, vol. 1 (Hull: Robert Brown, 1841), 268.

[Jan]

On Sunday, May 5, 2013 1:40:14 AM UTC-4, Steve Riggan wrote:
> Thanks for this information. Walter Kelke and Margery St Quinton were ancestral to my grandmother through William Farrar of Virginia. Another link for reference on the Kelkes which you likely already have: http://books.google.com/books?id=raNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA555&lpg=PA555&dq=walter+kelke&source=bl&ots=rXSqdPmFQL&sig=t3p0wcNosHd4_IXEZiSYhO1NEeA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V_CFUfiHLci6iwKz-oDYDQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA
>
> Steve Riggan

Have you found evidence to confirm that Walter Kelke's wife Margery was the daughter of Sir William St. Quinton as stated in the pedigree? If so, was this William the Sir William St Quintin shown as the son of William and grandson of Alexander in the St Quintin pedigree in the Holderness book?
http://books.google.com/books?id=fQQVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA268

The witness list of the 1312 grant to Walter Kelke and his wife Margery includes a Geoffrey de St Quintin, plausibly the son Galfred shown in the pedigree as a son of the William who was the son of Alexander's son William. It also includes a John de Heselarton, whose name matches that of the father of this William's wife shown in the pedigree. The pedigree shows a sister Constance for Galfred, but not a sister Margery. For Galfred's father William the pedigree shows a sister Maud, but not a sister Margery.

Another book by George Poulson, Beverlac; or, The Antiquities and History of the Town of Beverley, vol. 1 (London: George Scaum, 1829), 123-4, discusses villenage services owed by Walter de Kelk for his tenure in Gemelyng. The author dates the document to after passage of the statute "Quia emptores terrarum" in 18 Edward I.
http://books.google.com/books?id=FbJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123

[John Watson]

On May 6, 12:18 am, Jan <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
> On Sunday, May 5, 2013 1:40:14 AM UTC-4, Steve Riggan wrote:

> > Thanks for this information. Walter Kelke and Margery St Quinton were ancestral to my grandmother through William Farrar of Virginia. Another link for reference on the Kelkes which you likely already have:http://books.google.com/books?id=raNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA555&lpg=PA555&dq=w...
>
> > Steve Riggan
>
> Have you found evidence to confirm that Walter Kelke's wife Margery was the daughter of Sir William St. Quinton as stated in the pedigree? If so, was this William the Sir William St Quintin shown as the son of William and grandson of Alexander in the St Quintin pedigree in the Holderness book?http://books.google.com/books?id=fQQVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA268

>
> The witness list of the 1312 grant to Walter Kelke and his wife Margery includes a Geoffrey de St Quintin, plausibly the son Galfred shown in the pedigree as a son of the William who was the son of Alexander's son William. It also includes a John de Heselarton, whose name matches that of the father of this William's wife shown in the pedigree. The pedigree shows a sister Constance for Galfred, but not a sister Margery. For Galfred's father William the pedigree shows a sister Maud, but not a sister Margery.
>
> Another book by George Poulson, Beverlac; or, The Antiquities and History of the Town of Beverley, vol. 1 (London: George Scaum, 1829), 123-4, discusses villenage services owed by Walter de Kelk for his tenure in Gemelyng. The author dates the document to after passage of the statute "Quia emptores terrarum" in 18 Edward I.http://books.google.com/books?id=FbJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123

Dear Jan,

Do not place too much reliance on the early part Poulson's pedigree of
the family of St. Quintin of Harpham (Holderness, Vol. 1, p. 268). The
names of the spouses of the St. Quintins seem in many cases to be
erroneous.

To give one example. Sir William de St. Quintin, presumably the one
whose will is dated 25 July 1300, is said to have married a daughter
of Sir John de Heslerton. This is quite impossible on chronological
grounds. There was only one Sir John de Heslarton and he lived from
about 1280 until 1335 or later. John de Heslarton and his wife Margery
de Lowthorpe had seven children including two daughters. However, all
of these children were born in the early 1300s. One of their sons, Sir
Simon de Heslerton was still alive in 1370. It seems highly unlikely
that Simon had a younger sister who married a man who died in 1300.

Regards,

John

[Jan]

On Monday, May 6, 2013 3:36:51 PM UTC-4, John Watson wrote:
> Dear Jan,
>
> Do not place too much reliance on the early part Poulson's pedigree of
> the family of St. Quintin of Harpham (Holderness, Vol. 1, p. 268). The
> names of the spouses of the St. Quintins seem in many cases to be
> erroneous.
>
> To give one example. Sir William de St. Quintin, presumably the one
> whose will is dated 25 July 1300, is said to have married a daughter
> of Sir John de Heslerton. This is quite impossible on chronological
> grounds. There was only one Sir John de Heslarton and he lived from
> about 1280 until 1335 or later. John de Heslarton and his wife Margery
> de Lowthorpe had seven children including two daughters. However, all
> of these children were born in the early 1300s. One of their sons, Sir
> Simon de Heslerton was still alive in 1370. It seems highly unlikely
> that Simon had a younger sister who married a man who died in 1300.
>
> Regards,
>
> John

Thanks for this information. I also noticed some problems with the dates in Poulson's pedigree. For example, how can Alexander's mother have given him Harpham in the time of Edward II? Which of the other early wives in the pedigree are incorrect or present chronological problems?

There is something curious in the entry for Sir John Heslarton in Knights of Edward I (vol. 2, p. 226). The first two comments are "Holds Inq. at Driffield, Yorks, 25 Sep. 1280" and "Sumd to serve agst. Scots 1 Mar. 1296." The rest of the comments are dated during the first 25 years of the 1300s. Where was Sir John between 1280 and 1296? Perhaps the first date is incorrect.

A Sir Thomas de Heselerton and a Sir William de St. Quintin witnessed a deed c. 1270. If William married a Heselerton daughter, perhaps Poulson has the given name of her father wrong.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=047-ddcc2_1&cid=19-2

The fine rolls of Henry III have these entries for search term 'H*s*l*rt*n'
(http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/search/search_text.html):

37/246 (08 January 1253)
[No date]. Concerning a fine of gold. Thomas son of Thomas of Heslerton gives the king 20 bezants for having a charter of warren, a market and fair and for having the liberty not to be put on assizes etc. which he has paid to P. Chaceporc and is quit.
37/247 (08 January 1253)
[No date]. Concerning a fine of gold. Thomas of Heslerton gives the king 10 bezants for having the liberty not to be put on assizes etc. which he has paid to P. Chaceporc and is quit.
40/525 (10 May 1256)
[No date]. Yorkshire. Robert de Heselerton’ gives the king one mark for a pone [to remove a plea] concerning oxen taken before the justices next itinerating at Lancaster. Order to the sheriff of Yorkshire etc.

A John de Heselarten may have had at least one child before 1300, as there are entries in the Patent Rolls mentioning a son Thomas in 1313, presumably more than 13 years old: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e2v2/body/Edward2vol2page0021.pdf
and
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e2v2/body/Edward2vol2page0063.pdf

[Jan]

Here is some documentation for the generation of Alexander St. Quintin in Poulson's pedigree:

Collection
U DDSQ
Papers of the St Quintin Family Harpham and Scampston
DocumentRef
U DDSQ/12/1
Hull University Archives
Title
Parchment roll bearing copies (14th century) of various Gifts
Date
[1220] - 27 Oct 1348
Description
a) Gift: Agnes, daughter of Sir Roger de Stotevill, to her son Alexander de Sancto Quintino and his heirs: in her widowhood: all her lands in Harpham, Burton Anneys, Thyrnum and Crancemore. Homage and service of John de Harpham for a tenement held of her in Harpham; of William de Hasthorp for a tenement held of her in Haysthorp; and of all other free tenants holding of her. With reversion to William and Anselm de S. Q., brothers of Alexander, and their heirs successively. Witn. Marmaduke de Tweng, John de Oketone, William de Karthorp, John Grasso, William de (Rue?), John de Risom, Robert de Friboys, John Jordan, Elnard de Saltmerske, Ingram de Monceaus, Simon de Stotevilla, William Robertet, [circa 1220]
b) Gift: John de Basingham to Alexander de Sancto Quintino: in marriage with Margery daughter of William de Albo Monest(erio): 8 bovates in Crancemore (i.e. those held by the following tenants: 3 by Robert son of Ralph, 2 by Robert son of Ketil, and 1 each by Hobbe Solpe, Robert son of Henry, and Ralph son of Amund) together with the said tenants and their families. Rendering a pair of gilt spurs or 6d. yearly, [circa 1225]

http://www.hullhistorycentre.org.uk/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=0&dsqSearch=%28%28%28AltRefNo%3D%27U%27%29AND%28AltRefNo%3D%27DDSQ%2F12%2F1%27%29%29OR%28Class%3D%27U%20DDSQ%2F12%2F1%27%29%29

or go to

http://www.hullhistorycentre.org.uk/dserve/search_advanced.htm
and search for U DDSQ/12/1 in the "Reference No" field.

[John Watson]

Jan,

It's probably better to disregard Poulson's pedigree completely - at least the part on page 268. Sir William de St. Quintin did marry a Heslerton, but it was Sir William, son of William son of Sir Geoffrey de St. Quintin who married Agnes, daughter of Walter, son of Sir John de Heslerton:

Westminster. Month of Michaelmas, 22 Edw. III, 1348. Quindene of Easter, 23 Edw. III, 1349. William de St. Quintin and Joan his wife, quer., Walter de Harpham, chaplain, and John Squier, chaplain, def., of the manor of Harpham (except 9 messuages, 5 tofts, 20 bovates of land, and two parts of 2 mills) : To hold to William and Joan, and the heirs male of their bodies, as to two parts of the manor (except 5 messuages and 3 bovates of land) ; remainder to the right heirs of William. And to hold the messuages and land, lastly excepted, to William and Joan for the life of Agnes widow of Robert Bertrame, and after her death to William son of the same William and Agnes daughter of Walter son of John de Heslarton, and the heirs of their bodies ; remainder to William de St. Quintin and Joan and the heirs of William. And to hold the third part of the manor (which Agnes widow of Geoffrey de St. Quintin holds in dower) to William de St. Quintin and Joan and the heirs male of their bodies (except 6 messuages 4 tofts, 12 bovates, and three parts of 1 bovate of land, and the third part of 1 messuage and 2 mills and 1 bovate and 5 acres of land) ; remainder to the right heirs of William de St. Quintin. And to hold the tenements, lastly excepted above, to William de St. Quintin and his heirs.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines for Yorkshire, 1347-77 (1915) p. 18. No. 1

This first William de St. Quintin died before July 1351, leaving a son and heir William, who was under age. This second William is completely missing from Poulson's pedigree:
12 July 1351, Grant to Thomas de Thweng of the wardship of the lands and the marriage of William son and heir of William de Sancto Quintino of Harpeham if this pertain to the king, and remission to him of that which pertains to the king of the wardship and marriage for this turn; and so from heir to heir.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 3, Vol. 9, p. 117

The whole thing is a mess - start again from primary evidence.

Best regards,

John

[Jan]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 8:04:38 AM UTC-4, John Watson wrote:
>
> It's probably better to disregard Poulson's pedigree completely - at least the part on page 268. Sir William de St. Quintin did marry a Heslerton, but it was Sir William, son of William son of Sir Geoffrey de St. Quintin who married Agnes, daughter of Walter, son of Sir John de Heslerton:
>
> Westminster. Month of Michaelmas, 22 Edw. III, 1348. Quindene of Easter, 23 Edw. III, 1349. William de St. Quintin and Joan his wife, quer., Walter de Harpham, chaplain, and John Squier, chaplain, def., of the manor of Harpham (except 9 messuages, 5 tofts, 20 bovates of land, and two parts of 2 mills) : To hold to William and Joan, and the heirs male of their bodies, as to two parts of the manor (except 5 messuages and 3 bovates of land) ; remainder to the right heirs of William. And to hold the messuages and land, lastly excepted, to William and Joan for the life of Agnes widow of Robert Bertrame, and after her death to William son of the same William and Agnes daughter of Walter son of John de Heslarton, and the heirs of their bodies ; remainder to William de St. Quintin and Joan and the heirs of William. And to hold the third part of the manor (which Agnes widow of Geoffrey de St. Quintin holds in dower) to William de St. Quintin and Joan and the heirs male of their bodies (except 6 messuages 4 tofts, 12 bovates, and three parts of 1 bovate of land, and the third part of 1 messuage and 2 mills and 1 bovate and 5 acres of land) ; remainder to the right heirs of William de St. Quintin. And to hold the tenements, lastly excepted above, to William de St. Quintin and his heirs.
> Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 52, Feet of Fines for Yorkshire, 1347-77 (1915) p. 18. No. 1
>
> This first William de St. Quintin died before July 1351, leaving a son and heir William, who was under age. This second William is completely missing from Poulson's pedigree:
>
> 12 July 1351, Grant to Thomas de Thweng of the wardship of the lands and the marriage of William son and heir of William de Sancto Quintino of Harpeham if this pertain to the king, and remission to him of that which pertains to the king of the wardship and marriage for this turn; and so from heir to heir.
> Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 3, Vol. 9, p. 117
>
> The whole thing is a mess - start again from primary evidence.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John

Sounds like the usual situation with published pedigrees! I hadn't looked at the later generations of the pedigree, except to notice that there are many documents related to the generation of William and Joan in the mid 1300s. My interest at the moment is the first four generations: Alexander, William, William, Geoffrey--in particular whether Margery the wife of Walter Kelke was the sister of this Geoffrey (Galfred).

You note that there is a William generation missing in Poulson's St. Quintin pedigree at
http://books.google.com/books?id=fQQVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA268

I wonder if there really were two William generations between Alexander and Geoffrey, as shown. Perhaps the William listed there (married to the Heselarton) is misplaced. His sister Maud who married a Halsthorp also appears misplaced in time.

The time interval between the wills of Alexander (1257) and William (1300) could be consistent with one or two generations.

[Jan]

I have put images of the transcriptions of the wills of Alexander St. Quintin (1257) and William St. Quintin (1300) from the article by William Brown, "Old wills from Harpham (Preserved at Scampston)," Transactions of the East Riding Antiquarian Society 21 (1915), 70-9, on the web at
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/genjan/StQuintinWills/
for interested readers to download.

Oddly, Alexander's will is in the third person. I think the will of William is consistent with my suggestion there may have been just one William between Alexander (the 1257 testator) and Geoffrey as William (the 1300 testator) mentions his siblings Hugh and Agnes, matching two of the children named in Alexander's will. I do not see any evidence in William's will to support the claim that Margery, the wife of Walter Kelke by 1312 and likely a decade or more earlier, was a daughter of this William St. Quintin. William mentions three sons, Geoffrey (Galfridus his son and heir), Master John, and Oliver, and one daughter, Constance, but no daughter Margery. Perhaps, however, it is not uncommon to find no mention of married daughters in the wills of fathers in this era. He does mention his son Geoffrey's wife Alice and identifies her as the daughter of William de Ros of Igmanthorp.