Clarice, wife of Sir Adam de Everingham (Clarice la Warre ?)
The...@aol.com
Dear Kevan, (and Ivor),et al.,
* the following is available only due to the 7+ metres of snow,
24+ inches to the non-metric, now siting on my lawn, driveway
& everywhere else in site - how's the powder in Carroll Co. ? *
My identification of Clarice, first wife of Sir Adam de
Everingham (he d. before 8 May 1341) as a daughter of Sir Roger la
Warre, lst Lord La Warre (d. 20 June 1320) and his wife Clarice de
Tregoz is conjectured based on information supplied in two posts to
SGM, which are appended below.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
~ Ivor, you had asked in a post to SGM in 2001 about anyone with
information re: 'lady Elizabeth de la Warre of Hestercombe'.
I have no direct information, but in your post you also asked
about information concerning 'the ancestry of her possible
grandmother, Clarice de Tregoz'.
I will send you what I have on the Tregoz ancestry, unless
you have acquired this in the meantime; however, as you have
this piece of information re: an otherwise 'missing daughter'
(on my database of la Warre, anyway) would you have anything
further re: siblings of Elizabeth - the mysterious Clarice,
for example ?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
I have found nothing further to date in this matter; certainly,
any additional ideas or documentation (esp. re: the family of Sir
Roger la Warre, and/or the lands which went to the issue of Sir Adam
and Clarice) would be most welcome.
Good luck, and good shoveling....er, I mean hunting (actually,
both !).
John *
___________________________
# 1
" A Possible Everingham Solution: Clarice La Warre ? "
Friday, 14 June, 2002
Hello All,
A good possibility presents itself in identifying the family of Clarice,
first wife of Sir Adam de Everingham of Laxton, Notts. & c. (d. bef 8 May
1341).
The record in CP (Vol. V -Everingham, pp. 187-8) is brief:
' He m., lstly , before 12 Jan. 1307/8, Clarice. '
I find one Clarice or Clarissa in the 13th century record of an
equivalent social rank: Clarice de Tregoz, daughter of John de Tregoz of
Eaton Tregoz, co. Hereford (lst Lord Tregoz, d. 21 Aug 1300) by Mabel
FitzWarin, widow of William de Crevequer. Clarice de Tregoz was married
before Oct 1276 to Roger la Warre, of Wickwar, co. Gloucester & c., lst Lord
La Warre (d. 20 Jun 1320) and was ancestress thereby of the subsequent Lords
de la Warr and many besides.
The strong possibility that Clarice, wife of Sir Adam de Everingham, was
a daughter of Roger la Warre and Clarice de Tregoz exists based on the
following:
1. As noted by others of the list who have commented
on this observation, Clarice or Clarissa was a
relatively rare name amongst the upper strata of
society.
2. The marriage of Clarice de Tregoz (1276 or before)
runs well with the probable birth date of Clarice,
wife of Sir Adam: given his birth date of 29 Aug
1279, his wife Clarice was probably born between
1279 and 1290. Their eldest son Adam de
Everingham was born ca. 1307 according to CP.
3. There were daughters of the marriage of Roger la
Warre and Clarice de Tregoz. In Knights of
Edward I, Vol. V (Harl. Soc. series, Vol. 84),
the record of Sir Roger la Warre names only his
sons John and Roger, but does state (p. 158):
' Going to Gascony for K[ing Edward] he has
grant that if he die there, leaving his
heir a minor, his Exors. may hold Wykewarre
Manor, Glou., and Brustlyngton Manor, Som.,
during such minority, and apply the revenues
for marriage of his daughters, 9 Nov. 1295.'
4. There are IGI records of two individuals named
Clarice la Warre, one born either 1278 or 1279
[no spouse indicated] and another born 'abt 1298'.
The latter is shown in LDS Ancestral Files as
the daughter of Roger la Warre and Clarice de
Tregoz, and married to Roger Savage ca. 1324 -
this individual is (not proven but) more likely
to have been a daughter of John la Warre, 2nd
Lord la Warre who m. aft 19 Nov 1294 Joan de
Grelle.
A proven identification of this Clarice would help to fill this gap in
the ancestry of the Lords Hastings (Elsing), the Soothills of West Rasen and
many others, including several members of the list.
I have no evidence in hand from any Visitation pedigree or other source
which would confirm or disprove such an identification. If anyone of the
list might have information or suggestions which would further (or even,
complete) this research, it would be greatly appreciated.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
_________________________________
# 2
" A Possible Everingham Solution: Clarice La Warre, Pt. II "
Sunday, 1 September, 20023
Hello All,
On 14 June 2002 I posted a message concerning the circumstantial evidence
that supported the possibility of Clarice (d. aft 25 Aug 1321), first wife of
Sir Adam de Everingham (d. 1341), being a daughter of Sir Roger la Warre.
An additional piece of supporting evidence for this relationship is found
in Vol. I, Knights of Edward I (Harleian series, Vol. 80, 1929). On p. 319,
for Sir Adam de Everingham, it states:
' He owes 400 m. in Lincs., Yorks. and Notts., to
his d. Sibyl, 2 Jy. 1320 (C.R.). '
Sibyl was the name of the sister of Clarice de Tregoz, wife of Sir Roger
la Warre. The introduction of this name into the Everingham family appears
to have been the result of the marriage of Sir Adam de Everingham to Clarice
la Warre, whose daughter Sibyl would be a great-niece of Sibyl de Tregoz
according to this theory.
The following conjectural chart indicates the names of the individuals in
these related families [1]. Those names in the Everingham family with an
evident source in the family of the Lords La Warre and/or Lord Tregoz are
capitalized.
Robert = Sibyl
de Tregoz I de Ewyas
of Ewyas Harold I
d.ca.1215 I
______I
I
Robert = Juliana
de Tregoz I de Cantelou
d.ca.1268 I
______I
I
John = Mabel
de Tregoz I FitzWarin
Lord Tregoz I
d. 1300 I
_________________I
I I
Sir Roger = Clarice Sibyl = Sir William
la Warre I de Tregoz I de Grandison
lst Lord I I
La Warre I I
d. 1320 I V
I
_ _ _I_________________________________
I I I
CLARICE = Sir Adam de John Roger
[1st I Everingham 2nd Lord
wife] I lst Lord La Warre
I Everingham
I d.ca. 1341
______I__________________________________
I I I I
Adam JOHN William SIBYL
2nd Lord
Everingham
d. Feb 1387/8
Additional evidence is being sought as to land holdings of the La Warre
and Everingham families. Should anyone have any information (whether
supportive of the above conjecture or not) that bears on these relationships,
I would be extremely glad to hear of same.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
Rick Eaton
have Clarice, the mother, as daughter of John Baron Tragoz
with Clarice dead in 1300 but *married to Roger Baron le
Warr (created 1299; d. 1329).
Unfortunately, this pedigree shows nothing for Clarice II.
It gives only a son, John, 2nd Baron, d. 1347, and married
to Joan de Gresley, dau. of Thomas Baron and Hanys
(spelling?) de Burgh..
This pedigree presents conjoining descents from Robert of
France, Rollo of Normandy, Egbert of England and Kenneth of
Scotland, quite an ambitious "achievement"
The reproduction I have (from a blueprint original) is so
large and detailed that I have to roll it up to read (with a
magnifying glass) a section of small print. There is, of
course, no relationship between size and authenticity. :-0
For the record, the pedigree was created by (or for)
Descendants of Benjamin West (Carper, Bean et al) in
Maryland and Virginia to whom my mother was related.
Unfortunately, I cannot give an attribution. However, I must
say, I am impressed with some of the small print identifiers
and other detail.
Rick Eaton
Voice: 203.453.6261 Fax:203.453.0076
Ivor West
John de Tregoz, had had a wife earlier than Mabel fitzWarine. Mabel's
first husband, William de Crevecoeur seems to have died in 1263 and
Clarice's son, John la Warre, was born 1276. Assuming that John's
parents were born 1250/55, it would seem to exclude Mabel as
Clarice's mother. Sybil Tregoz, 1270 - 1334, would then appear to be a
consanguineal half-sister of Clarice who was born some 15 years
earlier. I have a note that Sybil may have had full sisters Agnes and
Isolda but have mislaid the source.
Perhaps Pierre de Loriel's recent acquisition of "Our Lady of
Battersea" may have something to say on a possible first wife of John
Tregoz.
Ivor West
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:144.ade1cd...@aol.com...
Rick Eaton
members. John, forgive the duplication.
* * *
The...@aol.com
Dear Rick,
Thanks for checking on that pedigree as a possible (if
unsuccessful) source in confirming, or disproving, Clarice
as a daughter of Roger la Warre.
The indicated ancestry sounds reasonable. The Tregoz
family has a well-known descent via the lords of Ewyas
Harold from Goda (wife of Dreux of Mantes), daughter of
Ethelred II by his Norman wife Emma - this yields the
descents from Egbert (and Alfred) of England, as well as
the Dukes of Normandy. Via Tony and the vicomtes de
Beaumont, there are additional descents from Henry I of
England, and (via Beaumont and the comtes de Vermandois)
Capetian and Carolingian connections aplenty. The
Grand Dukes of Kiev are in there as well (due to the
marriage of Henry I of France and Anna, daughter of
Yaroslav).
That being said, perhaps some additional information
will surface to help connect La Warre and Everingham.
Meanwhile,
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
The...@aol.com
Dear Ivor (and Kevan, et al.),
Thanks for your post and clarification as to your concerns (esp.
chronological) concerning the Tregoz-FitzWarin connection, and the
parentage of Clarice de Tregoz, wife of Sir Roger la Warre.
I agree that if Mabel FitzWarin (widow of William de Crevequer) was
the mother of Sybil de Tregoz, she could not have been the mother of
Clarice de Tregoz - and that therefore, a prior unrecorded marriage
must have occurred, with Clarice being the older sister of the half-
blood to Sybil. However, there is a possible solution that would
explain a number of issues.
Fulk FitzWarin, knight, of Lambourn, co. Berks., Whittington, co.
Salop. and Alveston, co. Gloucester (d. aft Sept 1250) was father of
Fulk (k. at Lewes, 1264) - the father of Mabel above, and others - by
his first wife Maud le Vavasour, widow of Theobald Walter. Something I
had not noted previously: Fulk 'the elder' had married a 2nd time, to
one Clarice d'Auberville (CP Vol V - FitzWarin, p. 495 note (c) ).
I suggest that the identification of Maud FitzWarin's parentage as
currently accepted is in error, and that the relationships should be
reflected as follows:
1) Maud le = Fulk FitzWarin = 2) Clarice
Vavasour I d. aft Sept 1250 I D'Auberville
____________I____ I
I I I
Sir Fulk Hawise Mabel = John de
FitzWarin FitzWarin I Tregoz
k. 14 May 1264 d bef 24 May I d. 1300
= Constance de Tony 1297 I
I I
I _____________I______
I I I
Fulk FitzWarin Clarice Sybil
d. 24 Nov 1315 d. bef 28 Aug d. 12 Oct
I 1300 1334
V = Sir Roger = William
la Warre Grandison
The one possible spanner in this reconstruction would be the
identification of Mabel, wife of John de Tregoz, as widow of William de
Crevequer. If there is clear documentation concerning this, outside
the CP account itself, it would be greatly appreciated if this could be
posted to the list. It would otherwise appear that the connection is
actually the result of the conflation of two Mabels, aunt and niece (of
the half-blood).
Hope this is helpful.
Ivor West
Dauberville (say 1205 - 1249) moved down a generation as a first wife
of Fulk, 1202 - 1264, then, in 1250, Fulk marries, as his second wife,
Constance de Toeni. (There seems to be a two-generation, or
two-marriage, space between this Fulk and his son.) This would make
Mabel (1225 - ) a half-sister, although a generation older, of Fulk
the son (1251 - 1315), with Clarice de Tregoz being named for her
grandmother, Clarice Dauberville. It would also account for the large
gap between the two Fulks.
If anybody has a firmer chronology it might clarify the position.
Ivor West
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1ad.10a99f...@aol.com...
John Ravilious
While looking at some of the details concerning these individuals (little
more to add as of yet), I came across the following - a prior post to SGM
then pertaining to the de Weyland family - which does supply a source
re: Agnes and Isolda, to whom you refer below. This is the IPM of 'Mabel
Tregoz, nee FitzWarin' which Rosie Bevan had extracted some time ago.
"Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com> wrote in message news:<10455095...@ersa.uk.clara.net>...
> The point of my original question was to discover if Clarice's father,
> John de Tregoz, had had a wife earlier than Mabel fitzWarine. Mabel's
> first husband, William de Crevecoeur seems to have died in 1263 and
> Clarice's son, John la Warre, was born 1276. Assuming that John's
> parents were born 1250/55, it would seem to exclude Mabel as
> Clarice's mother. Sybil Tregoz, 1270 - 1334, would then appear to be a
> consanguineal half-sister of Clarice who was born some 15 years
> earlier. I have a note that Sybil may have had full sisters Agnes and
> Isolda but have mislaid the source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INSERT <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
From: John Ravilious (the...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: de Weyland, an Irish Connection (?) : Chipping Sodbury, co. Glocs.
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2002-06-05 04:22:15 PST
Wednesday, 5 June, 2002
Hello All,
On the question of Richard de Weyland, son of Thomas, additional
evidence has been found that clearly shows (together with that
previously posted and referred to below) Richard died without direct
heirs, and that the succeeding holder of his lands was either his
brother John or nephew Richard.
The following are (A) two writs from the reign of Edward I, and
(B) information extracted from the IPM of Mabel Tregoz, nee FitzWarin,
wife successively of William de Creverquer of Folkestone, Kent and
John de Tregoz, Lord Tregoz (d. 1300).
A. '18 Edw I - Richard Weyland, son of Sir Thomas Weyland and
Margery, as mentioned below.
Thomas de Weyland qui pro felonia regum abjuravit. Breve
de manerio de Anhus [On hus] liberando Margeriae uxori
praedictae Thomae et Ricardo filio eorundem asserentibus
se, una cum praedicto Thoma, de manerio conjunctim fuisse
feoffatos' [Calendarium Genealogicum v. 2 p. 753]
This is a writ of 1290 authorising the release of Anhus
manor to Margery and Richard, as he and Sir Thomas were
jointly enfeoffed.'
'30 Edw I
Ricardus de Weylond et Juliana uxor ejus. De non respondendo
coram custode Quinque Portuum super debitis contractibus aut
transgressionibus infra Baroniam de Folkestan de qua ipsi
Ricardus et Juliana tenent tertiam partem de Rege in capite'
B. 'Sir Richard Weyland was mentioned as Lord of Folkeston in
31 Edward I in the IPM of Nicholas Criol. Juliana his wife
was the daughter of John de Sandwich as outlined by the
following. Folkeston descended via Hamo de Crevequer.
'The IPM of Mabel Tregoz, 25 Edw I, widow of William de
Crevequer and John Tregoz (CIPM, v. 3 no. 412) regarding
the manor of Weston, Beds.
'The genealogy laid out goes thus
William d'Avranches
I
Maud d'Avranche = Hamo de Crevequer
I
1. William = Mabel = (2) John Tregoz
2. Agnes
3. John
4. Juliana aged 23 plus in 25 Edw I = Richard Weyland
2. Iseult
3. John de Lenham 30 years plus
3. Eleanor aged 60 years plus '
Following on the above, I have found statements (unfortunately
from unsourced websites) stating that this Richard de Weyland died in
1306, or before 1311. At that date or soon thereafter, it is
documented that Juliana his widow married John de Segrave, younger son
of Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave (d.ca. 1325). The heir to
Juliana's share of a third of Folkestone was their son John de
Segrave, of Folkestone, who d. in July 1349. This John's heir was his
cousin John, Lord Segrave [CP Vol. XI, p. 609 and note n on the same
page, citing CIPM vol. ix, no. 598].
Given the evidence cited by Copinger concerning Richard de Weyland
of Blaxhall, Suffolk & c., and his wife Joan, including a fine of 1313
levied as to the manors of Blaxhall, Middleton, Wantisden and
Cockfield, Suffolk [Vol. II, p. 124 citing 'Feet of Fines, 6 Edw. II.
33'] it is clear that there were two distinct individuals named
Richard: one the brother of John de Weyland (d. 1312], and the other
the son and heir of John de Weyland, and father of the heiress Cecily
de Weyland (subsequently Lady Burghersh).
Many thanks to Rosie Bevan for locating and reviewing the new
evidence cited.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> END <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Perhaps Pierre de Loriel's recent acquisition of "Our Lady of
> Battersea" may have something to say on a possible first wife of John
> Tregoz.
>
> Ivor West
>
John Ravilious
Dear Ivor,
A reasonable reconstruction. At the same time, as the author of the CP
article has used his/her sources re: Fulk FitzWarin (d. aft 1250) to show
Clarice d'Auberville as a second wife for him (presumably in his older age)
as opposed to a first wife for his son Fulk (d. 1264) it would be interesting
to have the text of those sources in full.
I was inclined toward the 'two Mabel' theory as given in my earlier post,
but in relocating the information concerning the IPM of 'Mabel Tregoz nee
FitzWarin' [see immediate prior post re: same] believe that document should
clearly set this straight. I will check with Rosie and see if she might
have access to same.
Given the presence of Clarice d'Auberville in the FitzWarin family (as
wife of either Fulk), if the Mabel Tregoz IPM says what I expect the 'fact'
in error is undoubtedly the 1263 date for the death of William de Crevequer.
This may yet be rendered simply as 'before 6 April 1263' - which may yet
be found to be 'ca. 1255-1260'.
The net result will presumably, then, be that Clarice and Sybil de
Tregoz were full sisters, daughters of Mabel (FitzWarin) de Tregoz, who m.
John de Tregoz 'ca. 1255-1260'.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John
"Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com> wrote in message news:<104558241...@damia.uk.clara.net>...
Chris Phillips
John Ravilious wrote:
> Given the presence of Clarice d'Auberville in the FitzWarin family (as
> wife of either Fulk), if the Mabel Tregoz IPM says what I expect the
'fact'
> in error is undoubtedly the 1263 date for the death of William de
Crevequer.
> This may yet be rendered simply as 'before 6 April 1263' - which may yet
> be found to be 'ca. 1255-1260'.
Yes, I think this is a case of "before" just meaning "before", not "shortly
before", because looking at CP vol. 12, part 2, p. 21, note f, 6 April 1263
was the date of death of William's father, Hamon. So the statement that
William died before that date is just a deduction from the fact that he
predeceased his father.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
Ivor West wrote:
> My own tentative reconstruction is slightly different. I have Clarice
> Dauberville (say 1205 - 1249) moved down a generation as a first wife
> of Fulk, 1202 - 1264, then, in 1250, Fulk marries, as his second wife,
> Constance de Toeni. (There seems to be a two-generation, or
> two-marriage, space between this Fulk and his son.) This would make
> Mabel (1225 - ) a half-sister, although a generation older, of Fulk
> the son (1251 - 1315), with Clarice de Tregoz being named for her
> grandmother, Clarice Dauberville. It would also account for the large
> gap between the two Fulks.
>
> If anybody has a firmer chronology it might clarify the position.
That seems like an appealing idea.
I don't see in the Complete Peerage any definite indication _which_ Fulk is
Mabel's father.
Also - and this may be an ignorant question - is there any evidence of the
identity of the mother of the Fulk who died in 1264? In other words, could
this Fulk be the son of Clarice Dauberville, giving an alternative
explanation for Mabel's daughter being named Clarice?
I note that the references given in CP vol. 5, p. 495, note c, _seem_ to
imply that Clarice Dauberville was still living in October 1250 (at least,
her husband was said to be living then, and one of the references for
Clarice is the Fine Roll for 34 Henry III, which includes that month - but
one would have to look at the record to be sure what it says). This would be
less than a year before the birth of the son of Fulk by Constance de Tony
(14 September 1251).
One other interesting point, which may be sheer coincidence. Constance de
Tony's brother Ralph, according to CP (vol. 12, part 1, p. 771, note f),
"who (or his s.) may have been the Ralph de Toni of Kirtling and Necton,
afsd., who, with Clarice, his wife, was living, (1305-06) 34 Edw. I ... "
It's tempting to think that this Clarice, too, was a member of Fulk's
family. If the younger Fulk were a son of Clarice Dauberville, and had a
sister Clarice, this could even be a pair of brother-sister/sister-brother
marriages. Or in Ivor's scenario, if the younger Fulk were married first to
Clarice Dauberville, and had a daughter Clarice, it could be a marriage of
his daughter to his second wife's nephew, for example.
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
Another look at the IPM shows that the sisters Agnes, Iseult and Eleanor
were daughters of Maud d'Averenches and Hamon de Crevequer, not William
d'Averenches and Mabel, as I had set out in the interpretation. I do
apologise for the error. Unfortunately as the manor of Weston was a
d'Averenches holding which Mabel held in dower, any issue of Mabel and John
Tregoz was not relevant to the inquisition and therefore not included in the
details.
The text follows
MABEL, LATE THE WIFE OF JOHN TREGOZ
Writ 24 May, 25 Edw I
[BEDFORD] Inq Wednesday after St Barnabas, 25 Edw I
Weston. The manor (extent given), which is of the king's ancient demesnes,
held in free marriage of the barony of Averenchis ; which manor Maud,
daughter of, and heir of William de Averenchis the elder, at one time held
of the king in chief by service of appearing before the justice in eyre in
the county of Bedford. Hamo le Creveker and they gave the manor to William
their son and heir in free marriage with the said Mabel. This William died
without heir of his body so that the said Mabel held the manor for life
according to the form of the gift aforesaid.
Juliana, daughter of John son of Agnes, one of the daughters of the said
Hamo and Maud, aged 23 years and more, John de Lenham, son of Iseult the
second of the daughters of the said Hamo and Maud, aged 30 and more, and
Eleanor, daughter of the said Hamo and Maud, aged 60, and more the next
heirs of the said Maud. Sir John de Lenham sometime since impleaded his
aunts Agnes and Eleanor before [Martin] de Littelbury and his fellows, then
justices in banco, for what was deficient in his reasonable share of his
inheritance of the said Maud his grandmother ; in consequence of which they
granted him in the said court the manor of Weston after the death of the
said Mabel ; so the manor ought to revert to the said John.
Similar writ, except the subject of the writ is named Sibyl, 24 May, 25 Edw
I
[BEDFORD] Inq 6 July, 25 Edw I
Weston. The manor (extent given), tenure a above.
Heirs of the said Maud as above, except that Juliana is named Juliana de
Weylondon.
Endorsed: A day is given to John Tregoz and Richard de Weylaund and other
parceners, on Saturday after St. Peter ad Vincula, 25 Edw I
[CIPM v.3 no.412]
Looking at the IPM of John de Tregoz d.1300 [CIPM v.3 no. 603], there
appears to have been a wide age gap between his two daughters.
The ages of his two heirs -John de la Warre his grandson (son of Clarice),
and Sybil his daughter - are given thus.
Northants - both aged 21 and more
Wilts- John 24, Sybil 30 and more
Somerset - as above
Hereford - John 23, Sybil 28
Salop - John 23, Sybil 30 and more
Wales - John 23, Sybil 28 plus
The impression is that John is 23/24 and Sybil 28-30. Though these ages
given cannot be regarded as reliable, Sybil appears to have been born
1270-72, and Clarice 1255-60.
Sir John Tregoz had immediate livery of his father's lands in 1268,
suggesting he was born before 1247. He was certainly married to Mabel by 11
June 1271, when they were granted free warren of Iden and Iham, Sussex
[Knights of Edward I, v.5 p. 43]. By 1263, William de Crevequer, Mabel's
husband, had predeceased his father, as he is not mentioned as an heir to
Maud's estate in the IPM of Hamo. William's sisters appear to have been born
around 1230 to 1240, so I would assume he and Mabel were of that age too,
and that he died very young.
Just by coincidence, today, while looking for something else, I came across
a Robert de Auberville and Clarice his wife, mentioned in three 1219 Sussex
fines concerning agreements with the Abbot of Robertsbridge over property in
Nordiham, Pette, and Playden. [L.F.Salzmann, 'An Abstract of the Feet of
Fines Relating to the County of Sussex 2 Ric-33 Hen III (Sussex Record
Society, 1902) nos. 157, 158, 162]. Clarice married to Fulk FitzWarin could
have been the daughter of this couple, or the widow herself.
Although the circumstantial evidence that Mabel's mother was named Clarice
is looking strong , it would be nice to see some hard facts and dates to tie
them together and build a more complete picture.
Cheers
Rosie
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie (and Chris, Ivor et al.),
Thanks for all those added details. Will have to put my pondering cap back on later tonight....
A possible source of further inquiry (possible proofs ?). I have it that Maud le Vavasour brought the following manors (or moieties) to her marriage to Fulk FitzWarin - or, to Theobald Walter;
1. Narborough, co. Leics.
2. Shipley, co. Yorks.
3. Edlington (co. Yorks., or Lincs. ?)
4. 'two other manors in co. York.'
This may have all passed to her son Theobald Walter; however, any chance that part or all may have been given to a child of her FitzWarin marriage?
Further, I see Lambourn, Berks. was part of the maritagium of Mabel FitzWarin - any possibility this never entered the hands of Fulk 'II' (d. at Lewes, 1264) might prove the parentage of Mabel, and to whom Clarice d'Auberville was married.
More ponderment later; back to the tax scrolls....
Cheers,
Ivor West
and their interesting observations on Clarice de Tregoz and her
namesakes.
The simplest and most likely solution does seem to be that William de
Crevequer died perhaps 8 - 10 years before his father.
The Clarices seem to be proliferating by leaps and bounds. To have
another brought in by Ralph de Toeni is bad enough but to have John de
Tregoz co-incidentally having a Clarice by an unknown first wife seems
to be a Clarice too far.
There remains, however, the apparent 15 year discrepancy in the ages
of Mabel's daughters Clarice and Sibyl, Clarice being born c. 1255, in
order to be mother of John la Warre b. 1276, and Sibyl seemingly born
as late as c1270. Perhaps there were several childhood misfortunes or
maybe John de Tregoz was away a lot.
If Clarice de Auberville was still alive in 1250, unless Mabel's
father Fulk was a quick-change artist, it does seem to make it more
likely that she was Mabel's grandmother and, from Rosie's information,
perhaps the widow of Robert de Auberville. If she's Robert's
daughter, there's another Clarice to add in. At this rate there'll be
more Clarices than Fulks in this family.
Ivor West