Re: Bold-Savage

[ToddWhi...@aol.com]

Brice~

The reference for Elizabeth Savage's marriage contract is:

Cheshire and Chester Archives and Local Studies Service
Catalogue ref. DCH/E/291 [13 Jan. 1458/9]
In this record Elizabeth Savage is labeled daughter of John Savage the
younger, esq.

Three successive John Savages that apply to the identification of her father
have death dates of [according to Peter Leycester's Historical Antiquities]:
1. primo die Augusti, 28 Hen. 6 (1450)
2. 29 die Junii, 3 Edw. 4 (1463)
3. 22 Novembris, 11 Hen. 7 (1495)

In 1458 [the year of Elizabeth Savage's marriage agreement], John Savage the
younger would have been the third, who died in 1495. Other of his daughters
married in 1467 [Ellen Savage to Peter Legh] and 1479 [Katharine Savage to
Thomas Legh].

Mention of the Oct. 1464 marriage covenant of Dulcia Savage and Henry Bold
is to be found on p. 405, footnotes 7 & 12, of VCH Lancaster 3. Henry Bold
supported the Lancastrian cause alongside of his grandfather Savage and the
Stanley relations.

If this identification holds up to scrutiny then, as I said earlier, the
Eltonhead descendants would have an improved royal descent from Edward I.

[ToddWhi...@aol.com]

_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Bold-Savage_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2005-05/1116988462)

I meant to say that Henry Bold supported the Lancastrian cause alongside of
his father-in-law Savage and his Stanley relations [not his grandfather
Savage]. Sorry for the error.

[Cristopher Nash]

ToddWhi...@aol.com wrote -

Todd, this (with your accompanying postings) is extremely interesting
stuff and would resolve a longstanding puzzle, for which many thanks.

Just a few off-the-cuff thoughts --

(1) The 'esq.' you find associated with 'John Savage the younger' might help
to confirm your view if John d. 1463 proves to have been knighted by
1458/9, yes?

(2) Presumptions are

(a) that there's no other John Savage lurking in the near-enough
wings (say, a cousin) capable of the same connections and
subsequent family entitlements/claims, and

(b) (re the proposition in your initial posting that >If Dulcia
Savage is this man's daughter, then her mother is
KatherineStanley, daughter of Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley<)
that there's evidence that Katherine Stanley had not
died/been followed by another wife before the birth of
Alice/Dulcia/Dulcie. (We're assuming that Dulcia would be
a daughter younger than Elizabeth, on the basis of the later
date of her marriage covenenant, I imagine; if she's an elder
da. then some evidence of the date of the m. of John and
Katherine Stanley would - in an ideal (dream?) world! - be
helpful....)

Wonder if you've had a chance to explore these at all yet?

Would I be right in thinking - given your remarks above - whether
you're working on the Eltonhead (eventually of VA) line in general?
If so, I'd be keen to know whether you've had luck in pursuing
queries raised here in the past - esp. in the period 2000-03 - under
e.g. Eltonhead/Norris/Norreys -- ?

Meantime, thanks again for this work!

Cris
--

[Sutliff]

Earwaker and Ormerod give the names of the 15 children of John Savage and
Katherine Stanley (who are buried at Macclesfield):

Sons: Sir John, Thomas (Archbishop of York), James, Sir Lawrence, Sir Edmund
Sir Christopher, George, William, Richard and Sir Humphrey

Daughters: Eleanor (wife of Sir Piers VI Legh 1455 - 1527), Catherine (wife
of Thomas Legh 1452-1519), Margaret (wife of John Honford d. abt. 1480 and
Sir Edmund de Trafford 1452-1513), Alice (wife of Sir Roger Pilkington) and
Elizabeth (wife of John Leek of Langford)

It seems strange that if all these children are so well documented, that a
daughter married into the Bold family would have slipped notice. However, I
have some other unaffiliated female Savages, all purportedly daughters of a
Sir John Savage of Clifton:

Isabel Savage, wife of Robert Legh of Adlington 1409-1479
Ellen Savage, wife of Piers Warburton of Arley d. 1495
Dorothy Savage, wife of Robert Needham of Cranage, Shropshire d. 1449

I must admit I have not followed up on any of these to see any link to the
Savages of Clifton.

HS

<ToddWhi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e2.14315b7...@aol.com...

[Cristopher Nash]

Thanks a lot for this, Henry, it's useful stuff. The one thing I'd
add - though it can well be a herring of the roseate variety - is
that (as some have noticed) I've had Alice as an alternate given-name
for the lady in question.

There's of course no linguistic reason to associate 'Dulcie/a' with
'Alice'. Until I've found out where the link may have come from (mea
culpa) I just can't rule out the possible use of scanning Alice (wife
of Sir Roger Pilkington) for a 2d husband.

The messy part is that at the moment I can't - physically, following
an op last week! - get at what may have been my source. I suspect,
however, that it may have been nothing more convincing than Gary B
Roberts' _Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants..._, though where there's
smoke there may be - well - fire? cancer? a smokescreen? Someone may
have the _500_ on hand, with a chance of skimming for Alice in GBR's
citation of Dulcie in the Eltonhead article?

Cheers,

Cris

--

--

[Cristopher Nash]

Hi James,

Thanks loads for this - it's just what we needed (and v. interesting
that GBR's dropped the Bold line). I hope you don't mind my passing
this on, on Gen-Med - if only to save others the trouble you've
taken??

So now we have _someone's_ idea of the possible ID of Dulcia with
Alice, once upon a time ratified - but now passed over by him.
(Passed over, though, perhaps more because of his unease with the
problem we're still now working on, concerning Dulcia/?Alice's?
father).

It remains to be seen what evidence had provoked GBR to think of
Dulcia = Alice in the first place.

... OK, I've managed to dig out my copy of GBR 500 and see that he
cites: "various Savage sources, none satisfactory, including
_Ormerod_, vo. 1, pp. 712-13, _Salt_, new ser., vol 12 (1909), p.
144, and J. P. Rylands, ed., _Visitation of Cheshire, 1580_ (HSPVS,
vol. 18, 1882), p. 203".

Todd, from your not having mentioned it as a possibility, I gather
that you've not seen Dulcia = Alice anywhere other than perhaps in
one or another of these?

I don't want to press this too far - I'm just looking for a way to
save your idea that Dulcia may be the da. of John Savage (d. 1495)
and Katherine Stanley. by testing the possibility that she may be the
same as their da. known elsewhere as Alice.

Cheers,

Cris

>Dear Cris,
> I have just looked up my copy of Gary Boyd Roberts
>R D 500 p 348 which indicates that while He lists Sir John Savage
>and Eleanor Brereton as the probable parents of Alice ( or Dulcia)
>Savage, wife of Sir Henry Bold though He also mentions the
>problematic nature of which John Savage was her father. The
>Connection is not mentioned by GBR in RD 600, however. instead on p
>448 tracing Anne ( Sutton) Eltonhead, wife of Richard`s ancestry.
> Sincerely,
> James W Cummings
> Dixmont, Maine USA

--

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear Cris,
Of course I don`t mind, I hit the reply to simplify getting
the exact titles to Gen Mrdieval frequently, unfortunately sometimes as with
my reply to You, I forgot to change the return address.