Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, wife of Ralph Lovel and Thomas de London
Douglas Richardson
I thought it would be good today to bring up an unresolved medieval
question, namely did Edgar the Atheling (died c.1126) [brother of
Queen Margaret of Scotland (she d. 1093)], leave surviving issue?
Reading the newsgroup archives, I see that this matter was discussed
here once briefly back in 2000. At that time, the question was left
unresolved.
Since that time, an interesting article entitled "Companions of the
Atheling" by Geoffrey Barrow has been published in Anglo-Norman
Studies, 25 (2003): 35-45. Professor Barrow is perhaps the most
distinguished Scottish historian now living. In a postscript to his
article on page 45, the following information is given:
"I am grateful to Mr. A. Hodge for pointing out that the chronicle
preserved at Huntingdon Priory, from which extracts were provided for
Edward I in 1291, states that Edward, son of Edmund Ironside, was the
father of Margaret queen of Scots and Edgar (the Atheling) and that
Edgar was the father of Margaret, of whom was born Henry called
Lupellus, i.e. Lovel. Margaret's mother is not named, but Margaret
herself was evidently married to Ralph Lovel II of Castle Cary,
secondly to Thomas de Londres, both of whom held estates in southern
Scotland. See F. Palgrave, Documents and Records illustrating the
History of Scotland (London 1837), 100; Anderson, Early Sources, ii.
28; Regesta Regum Scottorum, ii. 164, 166, 179, 199, 241." END OF
QUOTE.
For those in the modern world, the above may be viewed at the
following weblink:
Obviously Professor Barrow would not have included mention of the
Huntingdon Priory material unless he thought it was reliable,
especially since the existence of Edgar the Atheling's daughter can be
confirmed from contemporary records.
Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, married (1st) as stated Ralph
Lovel II, of Castle Cary, by which marriage she had a son and heir,
Henry Lovel. For a basic outline of Margaret's Lovel descendants by
her son, Henry Lovel, please see the following weblink:
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=satcover&id=I29121
As best I can determine, Margaret's descendants by her Lovel marriage
include the following 17th Century New World immigrants:
William Asfordby, Dorothy Beresford, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,
Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert,
Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, William Farrar,
Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Percival Lowell, Anne, Elizabeth, & John
Mansfield, John Nelson, Thomas Owsley, Herbert Pelham, William &
Elizabeth Pole, Edward Raynsford, William Skepper, Mary Johanna
Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, John West, Thomas
Wingfield, George Yate.
As for Margaret's descendants by her 2nd marriage to Thomas de London,
if what I read in print can be trusted, it is believed that this
couple had one son, Malcolm de London, who adopted the surname,
Durward. Malcolm Durward in turn is reputed to be the grandfather of
Sir Alan Durward, who married Marjory of Scotland, the illegitimate
daughter of King Alexander II of Scotland. Regarding the name change
from London to Durward, I can attest that Sir Alan Durward's father
occurs in records as both Thomas de London (or Lundin) and as Thomas
Durward.
Mention of these people can be found in the book, Balmerino and its
Abbey, at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aZELAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA30&dq=Malcolm+Dorward
If these links can be proven, then Margaret's descendants by her
London marriage would include the following 17th Century New World
immigrants by way of Sir Alan Durward's daughter, Anne Durward, wife
of Sir William de Ferrers:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, William Bladen, George &
Nathaniel Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles &
Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, St.Leger Codd, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry
Fleete, Edward Foliot, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Thomas Ligon, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas
Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas
Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage,
William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel
& William Torrey, John West, Thomas Wingfield, Amy Wyllys.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
M.Sjostrom
the wording "...especially since the existence of Edgar the Atheling's daughter can be confirmed from contemporary records..." tastes somehow wrong to me.
Aren't you sure it shouldn't rather be something like:
"...especially since the existence Margaret, wife of Luvel [whom another, non-contemporary source indicates as daughter of Edgar the Atheling] can be confirmed from contemporary records...."
Is there any *contemporary* source which links her to the Atheling ?
M.Sjostrom
'Lundin': is this again another of unwarranted 'name's the same' cases ?
"....her 2nd marriage to Thomas de London, if what I read in print can be trusted, it is believed that this couple had one son, Malcolm de London, who adopted the surname, Durward. Malcolm Durward in turn is reputed to be the grandfather of Sir Alan Durward, who married Marjory of Scotland, the illegitimate daughter of King Alexander II of Scotland. Regarding the name change from London to Durward, I can attest that Sir Alan Durward's father occurs in records as both Thomas de London (or Lundin) and as Thomas Durward."
* wouldn't it rather have been 'Lundie' than Lundin ?
* this lineage is somehow joined to the Forfarshire place, named Lundie....
another version of that, relatively gullible concoction, would be:
Of some for-us-unknown Scots origin, the lairds of Lundie, when the family had become prominent, brought forward a genealogical myth that they descend from Edgar Atheling.
* generally, the high-medieval people of prominence wanted to descend from rulers; and did not want their lineage to be that of upstarts... All those family inventions had the common feature that they had a king (or god) in the root.
I have great suspicions that a Londoner family of 1100s would adopt Gaelic first names for their kids...
Douglas Richardson
I see from the snippet view on Google Books of Professor Barrow's
earlier work, The Acts of William I, King of Scots, 1165-1214,
published in 1971, he indicates on page 166 that the parentage of
Margaret, wife of Ralph Lovel II, had not then "been established." He
also mentioned an undated charter issued by Ralph and Margaret's son,
Henry Lovel, which charter was issued before 30 March 1183.
This snippet item may be viewed at the following weblink:
On page 163, there is a also reference to Margaret, wife of Thomas de
London, who I presume is the widow of Ralph Lovel II.
There appears to be additional material on Thomas de London in
Professor Barrow's other book, Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History,
published in 1980. On page 101 in that book, he states that Thomas de
London married Margaret, widow of Ralph Lovel, before 1161. This
information may be viewed at the following weblink:
There is also additional material on the London family in this book on
pages 183-184.
So we have some additional information.
James Hogg
Are you worried about a gap of a mere century and a half?
James
Douglas Richardson
There is further reference to Margaret, wife of Thomas de London, and
her son, Henry Lovel, found in the book, The Normans in Scotland
(1954), pg. 288. A snippet view of that page may be viewed at the
following weblink:
Also, I see elsewhere that Professor Barrow identifies Margaret , wife
of Ralph Lovel II and Thomas de London, as an "heiress in
Roxburghshire." Presuming she was Edgar the Atheling's only surviving
child, then she certainly would have been an heiress to her father.
If Barrow is correct about Margaret being an heiress, that would fit
what it said about Edgar the Atheling's issue.
Douglas Richardson
I see that Edgar the Atheling and his daughter, Margaret, are likewise
mentioned in an old issue of New England Hist. & Gen. Register, which
item can be found in snippet view at the following weblink:
The author of this article states that "Edgar [the Atheling] was
undoubtedly married. Henry of Huntingdon mentions his family and says
his daughter Margaret, was the mother of Henry Lovel. This Henry was
Lord of Castle Cary and the son of Ralph Lovel and his wife Margaret,
who was heiress of lands in Roxburghshire in Scotland. She died in
1147-1164."
There doesn't to be any question that Henry Lovel was a real
individual, or that his mother Margaret was an heiress. So far, so
good.
t...@clearwire.net
> Also, I see elsewhere that Professor Barrow identifies Margaret , wife
> of Ralph Lovel II and Thomas de London, as an "heiress in
> Roxburghshire." Presuming she was Edgar the Atheling's only surviving
> child, then she certainly would have been an heiress to her father.
When you formulate the hypothesis based on the desired conclusion, it
is called begging the question.
> If Barrow is correct about Margaret being an heiress, that would fit
> what it said about Edgar the Atheling's issue.
Nonsense. First, what was said about Edgar's issue is that he begot
Margaret mother of Henry Lupellius. It doesn't say that she was
Edgar's only daughter. It doesn't say that she was his heiress. It
just says that she was his daughter. You might as well say that the
fact that she is female supports the connection. Further, you are
perhaps reading too much into the term 'heiress' as it is being used
here. That the family gained land in Roxburghshire through this
marriage is all it need mean, and one cannot (well, at least should
not) assume that this implies the individual was a sole daughter.
Anyhow, unless/until we have some evidence that Edgar held land in
Roxburghshire, then the fact that Margaret was heiress in Roxburgh
doesn't speak to her parentage in the least.
[from an earlier post in the thread]
> Obviously Professor Barrow would not have included mention of the
> Huntingdon Priory material unless he thought it was reliable,
> especially since the existence of Edgar the Atheling's daughter
> can be confirmed from contemporary records.
Neither of these statements is any better.
Professor Barlow would not have mentioned the Huntingdon Priory
material unless he thought it was worth mentioning. That is the only
thing you can conclude. He does not analyze it nor place it into the
context of the rest of his article, he just lays it out there, for
what it's worth. As to Edgar's daughter being confirmed in
contemporary records, the best you have done is regurgitate the fact
that a document from 200 years after the fact claimed that such a
daughter existed, with the added note that a published historian of
the period mentioned that it had been brought to his attention. Is
your use of "contemporary" that flexible, or did you actually mean to
say that the mother of Henry Lovel can be documented in contemporary
records, not that the daughter of Edgar could?
taf
Douglas Richardson
< Professor Barlow would not have mentioned the Huntingdon Priory
< material unless he thought it was worth mentioning. That is the
only
< thing you can conclude.
Actually his name is Professor Barrow, not Professor Barlow. And,
he's fully aware of who all of these people are. He's published
material on these people at least twice in previous publications
before he published his comment about Edgar the Atheling's daughter,
Margaret, in 2003.
Professor Barrow is the acknowledged expert historian on this period
of history in Scotland. He is a very careful historian. If he
accepts it, I would give it the greatest weight.
Furthermore, I can attest that contemporary evidence fully confirms
the existence of Margaret and her son, Henry Lovel, and also that
Margaret was an heiress in Roxburghshire.
If you have evidence to show otherwise, by all means, please post
it. But, next time, please post your sources and provide weblinks.
Otherwise you are just giving us your uninformed opinion. No
evidence, no citations, no weblinks = IGNORE.
t...@clearwire.net
> On Jan 7, 12:19 pm, t...@clearwire.net wrote:
>
> < Professor Barlow would not have mentioned the Huntingdon Priory
> < material unless he thought it was worth mentioning. That is the
> only
> < thing you can conclude.
>
> Actually his name is Professor Barrow, not Professor Barlow.
Yes, quite.
> And,
> he's fully aware of who all of these people are.
Never said he wasn't.
> He's published
> material on these people at least twice in previous publications
> before he published his comment about Edgar the Atheling's daughter,
> Margaret, in 2003.
So what?
> Professor Barrow is the acknowledged expert historian on this period
> of history in Scotland. He is a very careful historian.
Sigh. Exactly how many strawmen do you intend to vanquish before
getting to your point?
> If he
> accepts it, I would give it the greatest weight.
And here finally we get to the point. The point being that you are
assuming something not in evidence. What - exactly - did he say?
That someone had brought to attention the claim made in a non-
contemporary chronicle. That is all he said. He didn't say that it
is accurate. He didn't say he accepted it. He didn't say what
bearing this would have on his analysis. He just said that someone
told him it existed.
There is nothing new here. You want it to be true, so all standards
of evidence are ignored. Barrow doesn't accept it, he just repeats
it, but you conclude inappropriately that he wouldn't repeat it unless
he accepted it. Even had he accepted it, you keep haranguing this
group about the necessity not to simply follow modern scholars like
sheep, but to consult the contemporary evidence (well, at least you do
when you disagree with the modern scholar in question), yet here you
say "since Barrow accepts it (your own assumption) we should accept it
too": the same appeal to authority which you reject when it goes
against your whim. Finally, just earlier today, you whined about
another poster not having contemporary evidence. Where is your
contemporary evidence for Margaret's parentage? You have none, but
that's OK, because these standards only apply to everyone else, not
you, right?
> Furthermore, I can attest that contemporary evidence fully confirms
> the existence of Margaret and her son, Henry Lovel, and also that
> Margaret was an heiress in Roxburghshire.
Which in no way bears on her parentage as the supposed father is not
known to have held the lands she brought to the Lovels.
> If you have evidence to show otherwise, by all means, please post
> it.
Sigh. The same lame cop-out again? You made a claim for which you had
no evidence. Now you insist that I have evidence to prove that you
had none, which is just moronic.
> But, next time, please post your sources and provide weblinks.
Next time, please post an argument that you can support by the
standards you demand of others, rather than parading out a string of
logical fallacies and then trying to shift the onus of proof on those
who point out the nakedness of your arguments.
> Otherwise you are just giving us your uninformed opinion. No
> evidence, no citations, no weblinks = IGNORE.
And the same sad double standard again. Every time Mr. Richardson
convinces himself that an unsupported connection is nonetheless true,
he then suggests that all critique of his unwarranted conclusions be
ignored. Convenient, ain't it.
You have no evidence that Edgar had a daughter that was not already
discussed in 2000. You just stumbled across an author who repeated
the same facts. You have brought absolutely nothing new to the
question, other than an erroneous appeal to authority. Rather, you
have proclaimed that the answer is now known to you, and will now try
to browbeat into silence those who point out the grave flaws in your
fatuous arguments.
taf
M.Sjostrom
the chronology between Edgar Atheling and Mael Choluim de Lundie is uneasy at best. Abysmal, possibly.
Edgar Atheling was born in around 1050.
the historical Mael Choluim de Lundie was born in around 1150.
That's really not easily feasible for being maternal grandson.
--------
I think the headline of this thread is a load of wishful thinking
It looks to make statements which are not easily supported.
Doug McDonald
being talked about here? I can't place a Ralph Lovel at all,
and while I know of at least one "Thomas de London" I don't see the
connection.
Doug McDonald
Jared & Christina Olar
transcribed/translated as "de Londres" and "de London," was connected to the
Lundins, not Lundie, and not London, England. And yes, the Londoniis family
did end up with a new surname, Doorward or Durward, assumed from their
office. No one is claiming that the Lundin family were from London,
England.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret,wife of Ralph Lovel and
Thomas de London
Jared & Christina Olar
Lundie = Lundin.
I'll go sit down quietly over here now. Carry on . . . .
t...@clearwire.net
Ralph Lovel is of the Lovels of Castle Cary, and found in CP. Thomas
'de London' is not the lord of Kilwelly of the same name, who you may
have in mind, but rather the ancestor of the Scottish Durward family,
including Alan, son in law of William I.
taf
Douglas Richardson
I have this sinking feeling of déjà vu. The same objection that is
being raised regarding Edgar the Atheling having had a daughter,
Margaret (as per the Chronicle of the Canons of Huntingdon) is the
VERY SAME objection raised sometime in the past regarding the
parentage of Countess Judith, the niece of William the Conqueror. In
Huntingdon chronicle, Judith is named as the daughter of Lambert of
Lens [see Anderson, Early Sources of Scottish History, 2 (1922): 28,
which specifically reads: "Ivetta, who was the daughter of Lambert,
the count of Lens."]. A snippet view of this text may be viewed at
the following weblink:
Elsewhere, Countess Judith is likewise styled "Ivettam, filliam
comitis Lamberti de Lens, sororem nobilis viri Stephani comitis de
Albemarlia" in a 13th Century account of the life of her husband,
Earl Waltheof [see Vita et passio venerabilis viri Gualdevi comitis
Huntendonie et Norhantonie, in Chron. Anglo-Normandes, vol. 2, pg.
112].
Regardless some genealogists scratched their heads and even a few
historians doubted that Judith was the daughter of Lambert of Lens.
Regardless, after verifying that Lambert of Lens existed and that the
chronology permitted him to be the father of Countess Judith, the
Huntingdon Chronicle is now accepted as accurate by all reliable
historians. In any case, it would be highly unlikely that the Canons
of Huntingdon would make up a phony story that Countess Judith was
Lambert's daughter.
Just so as it is with Edgar the Atheling, his daughter, Margaret, and
his grandson, Henry Lovel. The record of this family comes from the
same page of the same chronicle which records Countess Judith's
parentage [see Anderson, Early Sources of Scottish History, 2 (1922):
28]. A snippet view of this item may be viewed at the following
weblink:
As with Lambert of Lens, Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, and
her son, Henry Lovel, are easily recognizable as historic figures in
this time period. If one accepts the reliability of this chronicle as
to Countess Judith's parentage, then one must presume that the good
canons were equally well informed about Edgar the Atheling's issue as
well.
Finally, there is onomastic evidence supporting the allegation of a
relationship between Henry Lovel's mother, Margaret, and Edgar the
Atheling. As per an old post in the newsgroup archives, Margaret
Lovel is the second Margaret historically attested in the British
Isles. The first Margaret in the British Isles was Edgar the
Atheling's 's sister, Margaret, Queen of Scotland.
Douglas Richardson
<
< Ralph Lovel is of the Lovels of Castle Cary, and found in CP. Thomas
< 'de London' is not the lord of Kilwelly of the same name, who you
may
< have in mind, but rather the ancestor of the Scottish Durward
family,
< including Alan, son in law of William I.
<
< taf
Um.... Sir Alan Durward was the son-in-law of King Alexander II, not
King William I.
Another typo today, taf?
DR
M.Sjostrom
Douglas Richardson uttered:
"....I have this sinking feeling..."
---
a priori, I am somewhat surprised that Douggie has *feelings* about what he has written, or 'researched'.
however, allowing for that he may have feelings in regard to such,
I am not at all surprised that *sinking feeling* is familiar to him.
Knowing the quality of what he has published, in the kishmash of varying quality he has published.
actually, it should be inevitable that he should have had sinking feelings now and then, actually not rarely.
-------------------------------------
now, the great (and probably unattainable) trick would be that Douggie would check matters out beforehand, so not much of those would get published...
M.Sjostrom
"second Margaret in the British Isles":
I would like to know why Margret Hakonsdottir of Orkney, wife of Madach, mormaer of Athal, was not the second Margaret in the British Isles.
Jared & Christina Olar
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 8:14 PM
Subject: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret,wife of Ralph Lovel and
Thomas de London
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Doug McDonald
>
> Ralph Lovel is of the Lovels of Castle Cary, and found in CP. Thomas
> 'de London' is not the lord of Kilwelly of the same name, who you may
> have in mind,
I am not familiar with "kilwelly". The only "Thomas de London"
I know of in this time period is the father of the person known as
Eschyna de Molle. It take it this is not the one we are talking about?
Doug McDonald
Jared & Christina Olar
Walter fitz Alan, High Steward of Scotland. That would be the Thomas de
London under discussion here, I believe.
"Kilwelly" no doubt is a typo for "Kidwelly."
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdo...@NoSpAmscs.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
M.Sjostrom
Thomas Molle
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00006183&tree=LEO
the genealogically prominent daughter of Thomas de London, of Kidwelly:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00139487&tree=LEO
(her father was not Maurice, according to arguments previously presented in this maillist
t...@clearwire.net
Yes, of course (and you didn't even catch the other one in the same
post - I guess you were too caught up in your own smugness over
finding the first). We all make then from time to time. Even you. The
difference is that I am willing to admit them and let them pass when
others similarly err, while you refuse to admit any mistake, however
minor, and when someone else makes one you perversely feel the need to
celebrate such a common human failing in multiple newsgroups. When
will you figure out that it makes you look no better by the act of
pointing out the slips of others, while the fact that you will not
admit them only makes you look worse? Both behaviors simply make you
look like a sad pathetic small man.
But that is not what this is really about, is it? I had the temerity
to contradict your hypothesis in public, so you go into the typical
attack mode, that includes all of the typical behavior intended to
buttress your ego, rather than defend your hypothesis.
taf
t...@clearwire.net
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I have this sinking feeling of déjà vu.
It is no wonder. You keep repeating the same pattern, demanding
contemporary evidence of others, then claiming such evidence is
superfluous to your arguments.
> The same objection that is
> being raised regarding Edgar the Atheling having had a daughter,
> Margaret (as per the Chronicle of the Canons of Huntingdon) is the
> VERY SAME objection raised sometime in the past regarding the
> parentage of Countess Judith, the niece of William the Conqueror. In
[snip a flawed argument by analogy]
> As with Lambert of Lens, Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, and
> her son, Henry Lovel, are easily recognizable as historic figures in
> this time period.
So what?
> If one accepts the reliability of this chronicle as
> to Countess Judith's parentage, then one must presume that the good
> canons were equally well informed about Edgar the Atheling's issue as
> well.
Typical flawed reasoning. The two relationships involved different
families in different countries. There is no reason whatsoever to
suggest that the author was equally well informed on the two
questions. Well, no valid reason, but don't let that stop you.
>
> Finally, there is onomastic evidence supporting the allegation of a
> relationship between Henry Lovel's mother, Margaret, and Edgar the
> Atheling.
No, it doesn't.
> As per an old post in the newsgroup archives, Margaret
> Lovel is the second Margaret historically attested in the British
> Isles. The first Margaret in the British Isles was Edgar the
> Atheling's 's sister, Margaret, Queen of Scotland.
Who was queen. Ever hear of people being named for the queen before?
Here is your chance to settle this once and for all: Contemporary
evidence. If it is so important, then you must abandon this line of
reasoning. if not, then you must leave off demanding it of everyone
who disagrees with you. Which is it? (Silly me, demanding logical
consistency.)
taf
t...@clearwire.net
wrote:
> As I recall, Thomas de Londoniis is father of Eschyna de Molle, wife of
> Walter fitz Alan, High Steward of Scotland. That would be the Thomas de
> London under discussion here, I believe.
>
> "Kilwelly" no doubt is a typo for "Kidwelly."
Yes.
Doug McDonald
I remain terminally confused. Am I to take it that
1)Hawise de London, wife of Patrick de Chaworth and
Eschyna de molle were full sisters
2) they were half sisters
3) they were cousins or aunt/niece
4) they were unrelated
Doug McDonald
wjhonson
> Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, married (1st) as stated Ralph
> Lovel II, of Castle Cary, by which marriage she had a son and heir,
> Henry Lovel. For a basic outline of Margaret's Lovel descendants by
> her son, Henry Lovel, please see the following weblink:
>
> http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=satcover&id=I29121
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I would not be eager to cite this Ancestry World Tree descent chart by
David Weaver. It has numerous errors and apparently the vast majority
of the sources used on this part are happy little chipmunks like :
"Gedcom of Mark Ballard of Lakewood Avenue...."
Utterly... worthless.... source.
Don't even speak to me.
Imported Gedcoms, are a worthless source citation.
No one else can verify them, no one else can see them, no one else can
determine what *their* underlying sources were (or probably weren't).
The only thing a source citation like this does, it make someone like
me want to smack your face.
OK now that I'm off my soapbox (and a foul hypocrite as well), I want
to point out that in the descent chart presented, Richard Lord Lovell
who died 31 Jan 1351 appears twice to the same parents Hugh Lovel and
his wife Elizabeth Who-Am-I.
David Weaver gives Richard two birth years. One exact "1270" and the
other a flimsy guess "abt 1283". Neither is evidenced.
What we *actually* know is "Richard was a minor in 1291".
That's it. Update your datebases to simply say "Richard was a minor
in 1291" and do not say anymore more ! I order it. You must comply.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> the chronology between Edgar Atheling and Mael Choluim de Lundie is uneasy at best. Abysmal, possibly.
>
> Edgar Atheling was born in around 1050.
>
> the historical Mael Choluim de Lundie was born in around 1150.
We don't know when Edgar was born. Here is the assumption.
He married Margaret of Scotland. We know her father was murdered 14
Aug 1040. We assume that Edgar was a *bit* older than his wife.
We know that his grandfather Edmund King of England died on 30 Nov
1016
Fiddle a bit here and there and voila he was born 1034/1039.
Is there a primary source which states which King of Scotland was (or
is supposed to be) Margaret's father?
Will Johnson
WILeeLco...@gmail.com
> On Jan 7, 9:12 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, married (1st) as stated Ralph
> > Lovel II, of Castle Cary, by which marriage she had a son and heir,
> > Henry Lovel. For a basic outline of Margaret's Lovel descendants by
> > her son, Henry Lovel, please see the following weblink:
>
> > http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=satcover&id=I29121
>
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> I would not be eager to cite this Ancestry World Tree descent chart by
> David Weaver. It has numerous errors and apparently the vast majority
> of the sources used on this part are happy little chipmunks like :
> "Gedcom of Mark Ballard of Lakewood Avenue...."
>
> Utterly... worthless.... source.
>
> Don't even speak to me.
>
> Imported Gedcoms, are a worthless source citation.
>
> No one else can verify them, no one else can see them, no one else can
> determine what *their* underlying sources were (or probably weren't).
> The only thing a source citation like this does, it make someone like
> me want to smack your face.
Listen up, Twerp, your webpages are so full of mistakes and errors,
alleged facts which you have not checked out, that you should stick
your head backwards, down, then up where the sun does not shine.
Do not speak to genuine scholars with such vile stupid attacks upon
their persons. You are a complete idiot, Wily Coyote.
meep, meep
genm...@gmail.com
wrote:
> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Your sentiment is admirable but misdirected. You never seem to
address these entreaties to Mr. Richardson, who is the cause of the
greatest portion of the discord in this group.
M.Sjostrom
what Margaret of Scotland was that whom *Edgar* allegedly married ?
some fictional character, right ?
already the name Margaret gets alarm bells to ring hugely.
Margaret, Edgar's sister, should have been the first one to bring that very name to British Isles.
To me, 'Margaret of Scotland' (as she is most often called as saint) means Edgar's sister.
WILeeLco...@gmail.com
> On Jan 7, 6:21 pm, "Jared & Christina Olar" <ardgo...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > Can we all please refrain from personal attacks and petty putdowns?
>
>
> > From: "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com>
> > To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 8:14 PM
> > Subject: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret,wife of Ralph Lovel and
>
> > Thomas de London
>
> > > Douglas Richardson uttered:
> > > "....I have this sinking feeling..."
>
> > > ---
>
> > > a priori, I am somewhat surprised that Douggie has *feelings* about what
> > > he has written, or 'researched'.
>
> > > however, allowing for that he may have feelings in regard to such,
>
> > > I am not at all surprised that *sinking feeling* is familiar to him.
> > > Knowing the quality of what he has published, in the kishmash of varying
> > > quality he has published.
> > > actually, it should be inevitable that he should have had sinking feelings
> > > now and then, actually not rarely.
>
> > > -------------------------------------
>
> > > now, the great (and probably unattainable) trick would be that Douggie
> > > would check matters out beforehand, so not much of those would get
> > > published...
>
> address these entreaties to Mr. Richardson, who is the cause of the
> greatest portion of the discord in this group.
O, you too, sock puppet!
Suck it up, birdbrain.
Douglas Richardson is a published author, world-renowned scholar,
and you cannot count on your middle finger your IQ!
meep, meep
wjhonson
> I remain terminally confused. Am I to take it that
>
> 1)Hawise de London, wife of Patrick de Chaworth and
> Eschyna de molle were full sisters
>
> 2) they were half sisters
>
> 3) they were cousins or aunt/niece
>
> 4) they were unrelated
>
> Doug McDonald
---------------------
Doug Hawise de London, wife of Patrick lived much later than the
person's mentioned in this thread.
Hawise married three times, firstly in 1222 evidently as a child, to
Walter de Braose, Constable of Carmarthen Castle (in 1233).
Hawise was the heiress of her father Thomas de London of Kidwelly who
died 1210/1219, by his wife Eva FitzWarin who was yet living in 1243.
The Thomas "de Londres" who is presented as husband to Margaret,
daughter of Edgar Aetheling and thereby here presented (in this
thread) as parents to Malcolm de Lundin, who marrying a Mar, had
Thomas de Lundin the Doorward
had to have lived at *least* a hundred years earlier.
Per a book cited here, Malcolm was *not only* living under Malcom IV
King of Scotland, but actually got a grant, presumably as an adult,
for himself and his brother Philip under that king.
On another note, I've just gone through the ASC and found *nothing
whatsoever* to support the idea that Edgar Aetheling married a
daughter of the King of Scotland, even though they are mentioned
together several times, so I've now disconnected that in my database.
Will Johnson
Jared & Christina Olar
As momma used to tell us when we were little, it takes two to have a
conflict.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: <genm...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, wife of Ralph Lovel
and Thomas de London
On Jan 7, 6:21 pm, "Jared & Christina Olar" <ardgo...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Can we all please refrain from personal attacks and petty putdowns?
>
> Jared L. Olar
>
Your sentiment is admirable but misdirected. You never seem to
wjhonson
Yes I agree. It's most likely that someone has decided that since
Edgar the Aetheling named his daughter Margaret, that his wife must be
also named Margaret and that since he was a "Prince" that he had to
marry a "Princess" and the only available ones were unnamed daughters
of Duncan. So there ya go.
At any rate, it's out of my database now! One error down, five
thousand more to go.
Will Johnson
Renia
> No, it would not rather have been "Lundie." The "de Londoniis" family,
> also transcribed/translated as "de Londres" and "de London," was
> connected to the Lundins, not Lundie, and not London, England. And yes,
> the Londoniis family did end up with a new surname, Doorward or Durward,
> assumed from their office. No one is claiming that the Lundin family
> were from London, England.
Lundin is a Swedish surname, surely?
Renia
Can you refrain from adding to it with your sanctimonious moaning?
corbyguy
entries were written in the Chronicle of the canons of Huntingdon???
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:33d2663d-709a-4aca...@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~
I have this sinking feeling of déją vu. The same objection that is
James Hogg
<corb...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>I would like to know as to what year and century that these so called
>entries were written in the Chronicle of the canons of Huntingdon???
No one knows when they were written. All we know is that extracts
from the Chronicle were presented to Edward I in 1291.
You can see exactly what these extracts say about Edgar here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=VlULAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA100
"Edgar . . . . . . . . . . .it Margareta"
Not a lot to go on.
James
Jack Linthicum
Anyway you could avoid duplicating Hines' little circle of friends'
addresses every time you post to your genealogy group?
James Hogg
WILeeLco...@gmail.com wrote:
>you cannot count on your middle finger your IQ!
Is this Bill Arnold's entry for Backfiring Insult of the Year?
James
WILeeLco...@gmail.com
What? And let us all not enjoy the fun
of knowing it drives YOU up a wall,
and gives you fits, sleepless nights,
sweaty palms, and dregs of draughts?
meep, meep
WILeeLco...@gmail.com
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 20:45:04 -0800 (PST),
>
> >you cannot count on your middle finger your IQ!
>
> Is this Bill Arnold's entry for Backfiring Insult of the Year?
>
> James
At least The Hogg can count his own IQ!
meep, meep
Jack Linthicum
No, I just wonder what kind of jerk thinks he has to conform to a
pattern set by someone as inadequately prepared for social contact as
Father Hines.
t...@clearwire.net
> He married Margaret of Scotland. We know her father was murdered 14
> Aug 1040. We assume that Edgar was a *bit* older than his wife.
> We know that his grandfather Edmund King of England died on 30 Nov
> 1016
>
> Fiddle a bit here and there and voila he was born 1034/1039.
>
> Is there a primary source which states which King of Scotland was (or
> is supposed to be) Margaret's father?
As far as I know, this whole marriage is just someone's wannabe
invention.
taf
M.Sjostrom
'Lundin' is certainly a modern Swedish surname (one with likely background in latin, 'Lundinus')
but I have no known link nor explanation between it and the Dorsair (= Durward) lineage in high-medieval Scotland - IF Mael Choluim de Lundie and Tomhas de Lundie ever in original sources even were 'Lundin'
Therefore, the 'Lundin' of Mael Choluim and Tomhas 'Dorsair' should be assessed as separate question from Sweden.
I really would like to known, whether any original source in or near their own time, used 'Lundin' (as opposed to Lundie) about them.
Jared & Christina Olar
From: "Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
No.
Jared L. Olar
Jared & Christina Olar
which is equated to "Lundin." I suspect they are never called "Lundin" or
"Lundie" in any original source in or near the time of Malcolm and Thomas,
but who knows.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
John Watson
Douglas Richardson
Regarding the potential descent of Anne Durward, wife of Colban of
Fife, 8th Earl of Fife and William de Ferrers, Knt., of Groby,
Leicestershire, from Edgar the Atheling, the early history of the
Durward family is discussed in the book, The Book of the Thanes of
Cawdor, published in 1905, pages 1-2. There we learn that Anne
Durward's father, Sir Alan Durward (died 1275), was the son of "Thomas
filius Malcolmi de Lundin, hostiarius domini Regis" (that is, Thomas
son of Malcolm de Lundin, Usher of the King). Thomas de Lundin is
alleged to have held the following properties: Skene, Echt, Kinerny,
Banchory, Midmar, Kincardine Oneill, Lumphanan, Alford, Coull, and
Leochel. It is also alleged that Thomas was Sheriff of Inverness in
1226.
This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
No death date is given for Thomas de Lundin in this source. However,
he clearly died before 1233, as indicated by information found in
Scottish Notes &Queries, 3rd series, 5 (1927): 158–159:
“In confirmation of a grant of the wood of Trostach to the monks of
Arbroath by Alan Durward in 1233, we find that the [earlier] grant is
said to have been made by ‘Thomas Ostiarius, pater ejusdem Alani.’
This is clear proof that Alan was the son of Thomas, and also that in
1233 he had succeeded his father … Almost Earl of Mar, for a year or
two Earl of Athole, ambitious, intriguing, sumptuous, it is no wonder
that with such connections, and in such an age, he became a marked
man, a great power in public affairs, an interesting, even a romantice
figure.”
In the record cited above, Thomas de Lundin occurs as Thomas
Ostiarius, that is, Thomas Durward.
This above gives us the following pedigree:
1. Malcolm de London.
2. Thomas de London, alias Thomas Durward, living 1226, dead before
1233.
3. Alan Durward, died 1275, married Marjory of Scotland.
4. Anne Durward, married (1st) Colban of Fife, 8th Earl of Fife (died
1270); (2nd) William de Ferrers, Knt. (died 1287).
M.Sjostrom
Electricscotland, indeed, gives the following text, whatever it's worth:
Clan Lundin / Lundie
Chapter One – An Historic Fife-shire family
Introduction and Motivation
The history of many of the great houses and families of Scotland are well documented in the literature, and, in this cyber age, by clan associations and individuals on the Internet. The family of Lundin (or Lundie) is described, by Sir Robert Douglas in his Baronage, as one of the most ancient in Scotland; its history however is almost un-documented. I have found only one text dedicated to the history of this family, that of "The Lundins of Fife," by G.T Welsh. This text is very hard to locate, and can only be obtained from a couple of libraries and genealogical societies. Most lists of Scottish Clans and families seem to omit this family. The few books that do include details of this family provide very little information. This lack of documentation on the family of Lundin is quite remarkable given, as shall be discussed in full later, the fact that members of this family have occupied many high offices in Scotland, including Lord High Treasurer,
Chancellor, Hereditary Doorward (personal body guard to the King), Member of the Council of Regents of the Kingdom, and have performed duties as ambassadors and representatives of the Sovereign. Lairds of Lundin voted for Wallace as Protector of Scotland, fought by his side, and ultimately succeeded to the Earldom of Perth. Many of the heads of "Great" families of Scotland, have direct descent from this house; notably those of Lindsay, Forbes, Melville of Raith and Graham of Claverhouse. It is in fact only by reading the histories of these other families and noting their intermarriage with Lundins, that we can form an idea of their high social standing and historical importance. Why historians have chosen to neglect this family is a mystery, but I hope that this account goes in some way to correct this imbalance.
One of the few lists of Scottish clans and families that contains the family of Lundin describes it as an "armigerous Clan", officially recognized by the Lord Lyon. This means that it is a family that has the right to bear arms, has no chieftain. As well as no chieftain, this is also a family without a Clan tartan. By the time families began wearing specific weaves of Tartan, the Lundin family had sold all its lands and lost its social position. The location of the seat of this family, and most of the lands that were held by it, was in Fife. Due to this strong association with Fife, the recommended tartans for this family are the Fife district tartans of Duke of Fife and Dundee.
Lundin, Lundie, Lundy, Londoniis . . .
Officially, the name of this family seems to be Lundin, the main line of the family being the now believed extinct Lundin of Lundin, with all armorials listed with the Lord Lyon also being under the name of Lundin. However, this name has a number of variations, and the family was not always designed Lundin.
The name seems to have originated in the 11th century as de Londoniis or de Londres. This then quickly became de Lundin and de Lundyn. By the 14th century Lundy is used interchangeably with Lundin and Lundie. The name used for an individual often being determined by the source, or even the page of the book. An examination of the service of heirs in the 16th and 17th century shows that the main family is certainly designated Lundy of that ilk. Around 1630 the name of this family and the barony associated seems to change inexplicably from Lundy to Lundin. By the end of 17th Century, the main line and head of this house is using the title of Lundin of that ilk. However, most other branches of this family seem to have taken the name of Lundie from the beginning of the 16th Century; for example Lundie of Balgonie, Lundie of Benholm, Lundie of Gorthie, Lundie of Stratherlie, Lundie of Achtermerny and Lundie of Drum. Most of those families surviving to the 18th
Century, in particular those with armorial bearings, then take up the name Lundin, e.g. Lundin of Drum, Lundin of Stratherlie and Lundin of Auchtermarnie. However, in different sources consulted, and for different time periods referred to, different variations of the surname can be seen. In many cases the same historical figure can be a Lundin on one page and a Lundie on the next. To show how this name has changed through history, and which branches adopted which particular variation, throughout this description one will see these names used interchangeably, with the surname used representing the most commonly used for that particular individual in the sources consulted. The concrete history of this family begins in 1160, when two brothers, Malcolm and Philip were awarded baronies by King Malcolm IV of Scotland. One of these baronies is now known as Lundie, the other Lundin. Sources seem to discuss the family or House of Lundie, just as often as they do
the family of Lundin. It should also be noted that although this family has been seen to spell it’s name Lundy on occasion, the vast majority of people with the surname of Lundy (which is not particularly uncommon) will not hail from this particular Scottish family, but will have their origins with the English Lundy’s.
Incidentally, the name of Lundie comes from the Gaelic "Leann dhe", which means Gods meadow. The first mention I can find of Lundie is in 1130 AD, which is with respect to the battle of Inchbare. Two days before the battle, on the 14th of April, the forces of the Earl of Fife were mustered at Forfar. The first contact between forces of the Earl of Dunbar and the Earl of Fergus occurred at sliabh na Leann dhe, Hill of God's meadow, now Lundie Hill. The forces of King David I of Scotland (1124-1153) won the battle. One can find a number of places across Scotland bearing the name of Lundin or Lundie.
Norman Origins – The de Londres Family.
William de Londres, son of Simon de Londres was one of the Norman Knights who accompanied Robert Fitz Hamon in the conquest of Glamorgan around the time of 1090. Sir William received after the victory over the Britons in Glamorgan, the Lordship and castle of Ogmore and the castle and Manor of Dunraven. The castle of Ogmore was founded by Sir William. In 1094 Sir William led a strong force into Kidwelly and Ystrad Tywi. He built a castle at Kidwelly to secure his gains. In 1106 he was granted by Henry I of England the Lordship of Ewenny. He built a Priory church at Ewenny. He soon after built the castle of Ostermouth. He was also Lord of Ogwr.
Sir William’s son, Maurice (Malcolm) inherited his estates, (William also had at least one more son, Richard). He was thus Lord of Ogmore. The Lordship and Lands of Kidwelly, that his father had gained, had sometime previous been granted, by Henry I, to Roger, Bishop of Sailsbury. In 1128 he was denounced in a Bill of Pope Honorius II for robbing and defrauding the Church of Llandaff and for plundering and killing itinerant merchants at Llandaff. In 1141 he donated the Priory church at Ewenny to the Abbey of St. Peter of Gloucester the Church of St. Michael of Ewenny, the Church of St. Bridget with the Chapel of Ogmore de Llanfey, the Church of St. Michael of Colwinstone, the Church of Oystermouth in Gower, the Church of St. Illtyd of Pembrey and the Church of St. Ishmael.
1126, 10 years after his father had begun to establish a castle at Ogmore, Maurice started the foundations of a stone keep with six-foot thick walls. By 1130 Maurice had gained back the lands, castle and Lordship of Kidwelly. In 1136 he took part in the battle of Maes Gwenllian, which was fought as part of an uprising following the death of Henry I. Here Maurice, Lord of Kidwelly, Ormore and Carnwallon, led the Norman army. The opposing army was led by Princess Gwenllian. The Normans triumphed, and Maurice beheaded the princess on the battlefield. Maurice died in 1149. His tomb is in the Priory church of Ewenny. His eldest son, William, succeeded his estates. He was succeeded in turn by his son, Thomas. Thomas’s heir was his daughter Hawise, by Eva de Tracey. She married twice, firstly to Patrick de Cadurcis (or de Chaworth), grandson of Patrick de Cadurcis of Brittany (who came to England with William the Conqueror); and secondly to Walter de Braose.
She was the last of this branch of the de Londres family, and, on her death in 1274, the estates passed on to her son by the first marriage, Patrick de Cadurcis (III). Her son married Isabel, daughter of William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, and their daughter Maud married Henry, Earl of Lancaster (Henry IV), the de Londres estates thus passing to the Duchy of Lancaster.
Association with Scotland
In the mid 12th century a Thomas de Londoniis settled in Scotland. His ancestor was believed to be William de Londres the 1st lord of Kidwelly. It is most likely, by examination of dates, that Thomas was the son of William de Londres. He could have been no less than his grandson. Thomas was married to Escheyne, daughter of Uchtred de Molle, who was in turn the son of Liulf de Molle. Note that there are some claims that Uchtred is descended from Crinan, the father of the ill-fated Duncan King of Scotland who was murdered by Macbeth. Thomas de Londoniis and Escheyne de Molle were known to have had three children, Malcolm de Lundin, Phillip de Lundin and Escheyne de Molle.
In 1160, King Malcolm IV of Scotland granted the barony of Lundie in Forfar to Malcolm de Lundin. This barony contains the fore mentioned Lundie Hill. He granted the barony of Lundin in the parish of Largo in Fife to Malcolm’s brother Philip.
Escheyne de Molle was certainly married twice; firstly, to Robert de Croc; secondly to Walter Fitz Alan, the first hereditary high steward of Scotland. The following lines were written by the historian, George Macaulay Trevelyan (1876-1962), about Walter Fitz Alan and Eschyna de Molle.
And Walter, in the silence of the centuries, stands unconsciously between, singing his Te Deum for the yet ungathered greatness of his race; in the lofty, fair Abbey, raising his instinctive thanks to God through the psalms of the Benedictine monks. A clear, distinct figure, standing out in high relief; silent, too, as a sculptured form, but full of brave beauty and repose.
"Eschine de Londonia, lady of Molla," becomes the wife of the Steward. That she was beautiful and worthy of her lord, we are entitled to believe. One of the privileges of fiction which history has a right to claim is this faith in the beauty, grace and virtue of all those who have come down to us from remote traditionary times without contrary imputations. Particulars having been denied us, we philosophically generalise, and accept the individual for the type.
The woman, veiled in the obscurity of eight centuries, becomes the ideal lady. Norman, by no means, she; ~ Scoto-Saxon, with eyes softly blue; some Celtic fervour and devotion spiritualising her face; her aspect generous, and features pearly fair, with the rosy flush of Northern breezes, like a soft dawn, lighting them into the purest human sweetness; reasonable and benign; no fickle impulses, no exacting egotism, no self-worship; a woman of household pleasures ~ to be loved by her husband with a constant love, to be tenderly revered by his vassals. Her brown lashes droop not coyly: they are lifted with modest, serene trust in herself and in her world. Her thoughts keep company with her.
Such must Eschine de Londonia be.
There is suggestion that there was an even earlier marriage, to Henry de Molla, perhaps a cousin. This is unsubstantiated.
Not much is known about Phillip de Lundin. He has sometimes been referred to as Phillip the Chamberlain. He had a son Walter, who in turn is believed to have had a son Thomas. It is reported that this line of the family ended in and heiress. She married Robert, the son of King William the Lion. Robert took on the name of this family and it is from him that the family of Lundie or Lundin descend. The barony remained in this family until the end of the 18th century.
Malcolm and his close descendants are documented in much more detail. They became the family of Durward.
As with most Scottish families, there remains a degree of controversy over its origins. The picture presented thus far is the commonly presented perception, and is reported in a fair number of texts. The descent of this family from Robert de London is perhaps the only detail of this house that is truly commonly reported. As shall be seen later, this is the reason that King Charles II granted the family of Lundin of that ilk the right to bear the Royal Arms of Scotland. It would not be fair if all arguments were not presented.
A second suggestion for the Norman origins of the family, is that Phillip de Lundin was actually Phillip de Valoniis, descended from the Anglo-Norman Valognes family. This Phillip was also believed to have been chamberlain of Scotland, and his family’s arms were similar to those taken up by the Philip who became 1st Laird of Lundin. There is however reason to believe that they are not the same person. Phillip de Valoniis was granted by King William around 1180, the baronies of Panmure and Bervie. It is said he had one son, William de Valoniis, also chamberlain of Scotland. He inherited these territories upon his father’s death. William is then said to have had only one daughter, his heir in the fore mentioned territories, Christian de Valoniis. Christian de Valoniis married Peter de Maule. She brought to her husband, upon marriage, the baronies of Panmure and Bervie. From this marriage descend the Earls of Panmure. If this is the true history of
Phillip de Valoniis, it would not allow for the descent and formation of the family of Lundin. However, it should not be discounted. It should also be noted that although most texts state that this family descends from Robert de London, and this is why the family bears the arms of Scotland, there is some suggestion that this is not true. There are claims that a false pedigree was published around the time of the family adopting the arms of Scotland. It is currently impossible to comment on the validity of this claim
The Door-wards of All the King’s Palaces in Scotland
Malcolm de Lundin married a daughter and heiress of Gilchrist the third Earl of Mar. Malcolm was appointed by King William the Lion (1165-1214) to the office of Door ward of all the King’s palaces, ‘Hostiarius’. He was the first door ward of Scotland. This was to become a hereditary honour. Malcolm’s son was Thomas de Lundin (or Durward). As just stated, Thomas’s Grandfather was the 3rd Earl of Mar. The 3rd Earl was succeeded by his son, Glichrist 4th Earl of Mar. He died without issue, and was succeeded to the Earldom by Duncan, son of Morgund 2nd Earl of Mar. Thomas de Lundin, on account of his mother felt he was the next blood heir to Glichrist and so contested Duncan’s claims. Thomas also claimed that Duncan, and his father, were illegitimate. The claims were supported by the King. The dispute was settled with a compromise with Thomas receiving around half of the land of the Earldom of Mar. Thomas married Margaret or Christina daughter of
Malcolm 2nd Earl of Athol. They had two children, Sir Alan the Durward and Colin de Lundyn. Sir Alan was to become one of the most powerful men in Scotland.
On the death of his father, Sir Alan became Durward of Scotland; he held this office from 1233 to his death in 1275. He is often referred to as Alan the Durward. He also claimed the title of Earl of Athol from 1233 to 1235. This was on account of his first wife Isabella, countess of Athol, the daughter and heiress of Henry, 3rd Earl of Athol. His second wife was Marjory, the natural daughter of King Alexander II. He was clearly an ambitious man. Firstly he undertook to further his claim over the whole of the lands of Mar and in 1257 he claimed the title of Earl of Mar for himself. He even concerned the pope in this matter. In that same year a papal rescript was issued, directing an inquest to be held, proceeding on the narrative that "Our beloved son, the nobleman Alan, called the Durward, hath signified to us that, whereas the nobleman William of Mar, of the diocese of Aberdeen, hath withheld the Earldom of Mar, of right belonging to the aforesaid Alan,
and the same doth occupy to the prejudice of the said Alan, and that Morgund and Duncan, deceased, to whom the said William asserts his succession to the said earldom, were not begotten in lawful matrimony." These efforts were unsuccessful. He did however gain many other titles. He was Judiciary of Scotland between 1246 and 1251 and again in 1256-1257. Alexander II bestowed upon him the title of Earl of Kintyre O’Neil. This was an ancient Thanage. There is debate about whether a Colin Durward was Lord of O’Neil in 1234. Certainly Sir Alan Durward held these lands, founding amongst other institutions there, the Hospital at Kincarden. Alexander II also granted to Alan the Lordship of Urquart. Although a castle was known to be there in the time of William the Lion, Sir Alan Durward is believed to be the founder of the first stone castle on this site. He also built the Castle of St. Monance. On the death of Alexander II, on account of his being uncle to
the young King Alexander III, he was appointed to the council of Regents during the King’s minority years. King Alexander is known to have stayed at this castle with his Uncle. Alan Durward is credited with founding a number of buildings. The Kirk in Lundie village Forfar was built around this time by the Durward family.
Alan had a second set of famous dealings with the pope, trying to get his wife, Marjory, legitimised. This would have meant that if the young King Alexander III had died without issue, Alan’s children would have been next in line to the throne of Scotland. When Edward I of England was invited to select the legitimate heir following the death of the "Margaret, the Maid of Norway" (1286-1290), granddaughter and sole heir of Alexander III, among the 13 candidates was one of Alan and Marjory’s heirs, Nicholas de Soulis, by their daughter Ermenguarde. Had it been possible to prove Marjory’s legitimacy, his would have been the senior claim. The legitimacy was not proved. Alan lost his guardianship of the King over this matter.
Sir Alan Durward died in 1275. He had three known daughters, but no male issue. His lands were divided between the three of them. However in 1296 King Edward of England gives a grant of Alan Durwards lands to Sir David of Brechin. Anne married Colban MacDuff, 8th Earl of Fife. Ermenguarde married William de Soules. He is also said to have had a daughter by his first wife, Lora, countess of Athol. The name of Durward carried on after Alan’s death, for example around 1420 an Isabel Durward, heiress of Lintrather married Sir Walter Ogilvy of Carary. The Annals of Dunfermline list a David Durward of Dunduff around 1231. This could be an unknown brother of Alan. With respect to the Barony of Lundie, this sometime later passed from the Durwards to, the family that became, Duncan of Lundie. It was in fact the family of Duncan of Lundie that built Lundie castle in Angus.
James Hogg
>On Jan 7, 12:39 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 7, 12:19 pm, t...@clearwire.net wrote:
>>
>> < Professor Barlow would not have mentioned the Huntingdon Priory
>> < material unless he thought it was worth mentioning. That is the
>> only
>> < thing you can conclude.
>>
>> Actually his name is Professor Barrow, not Professor Barlow.
>
>Yes, quite.
>
>> And,
>> he's fully aware of who all of these people are.
>
>Never said he wasn't.
>
>> He's published
>> material on these people at least twice in previous publications
>> before he published his comment about Edgar the Atheling's daughter,
>> Margaret, in 2003.
>
>So what?
>
>> Professor Barrow is the acknowledged expert historian on this period
>> of history in Scotland. He is a very careful historian.
>
>Sigh. Exactly how many strawmen do you intend to vanquish before
>getting to your point?
>
>
>> If he
>> accepts it, I would give it the greatest weight.
>
>And here finally we get to the point. The point being that you are
>assuming something not in evidence. What - exactly - did he say?
>That someone had brought to attention the claim made in a non-
>contemporary chronicle. That is all he said. He didn't say that it
>is accurate. He didn't say he accepted it. He didn't say what
>bearing this would have on his analysis. He just said that someone
>told him it existed.
The way Barrow says it puzzles me and provokes some questions.
"I am grateful to Mr. A. Hodge for pointing out that the
chronicle preserved at Huntingdon Priory, from which extracts
were provided for Edward I in 1291..."
The phrase "preserved at Huntingdon Priory" is ambiguous in that
it's impossible to know what the tense of the implicit finite
verb should be. He surely can't mean "the chronicle that IS
preserved at Huntingdon Priory" since the priory was demolished
shortly after 1542 (VCH).
Is the actual chronicle preserved at all? Are there any
quotations from it that do not come from the extracts made for
Edward I in 1291?
If Barrow means "the chronicle that WAS preserved at Huntingdon
Priory" it's equally strange. Since it can no longer be at
Huntingdon Priory it would be more useful to be told where it is
now. If it is no longer preserved anywhere, it would be more
natural to write "the chronicle of Huntingdon Priory from which
extracts were provided for Edward I in 1291".
Then there's the troublesome fact that the manuscript of the
extract seems to be hard to read at this point. The editors
transcribe it as "Edgar . . . . . . . . . . .it Margareta":
http://books.google.com/books?id=VlULAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA100
In the context of the paragraph, however, the damaged word is
most probably "genuit".
Another question arises from another work quoted by Douglas
Richardson, New England Hist. & Gen. Register:
http://books.google.com/books?id=jZwPAAAAYAAJ&q=Margaret+Ralph+lovel&dq=Margaret+Ralph+lovel&lr=&pgis=1
The author states that "Edgar [the Atheling] was undoubtedly
married. Henry of Huntingdon mentions his family and says
his daughter Margaret, was the mother of Henry Lovel."
This author seems to have confused the "Cronica Canonicorum Beate
Marie Huntingdonie" (Chronicle of the Canons of Huntingdon) with
Henry of Huntingdon's "Historia Anglorum", which does not say a
word about Edgar's daughter. If this author can confuse two
sources in this way, it is legitimate to doubt the value of his
"undoubtedly married".
Finally, on a different topic, Wikipedia says that the place of
Edgar the Atheling's burial is unknown. But I have found a
statement that he was buried beside his grandfather, Edmund
Ironside, in Glastonbury. I can only see a snippet view so I
can't tell what source was used by the amazingly named
Edmund King, author of "A Northamptonshire Miscellany" (1983).
Here's the link, for what it's worth:
http://books.google.com/books?ei=VBdmSd66CoPIlQSt_MT5Ag&id=TnZnAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22huntingdon+priory%22&q=edgar&pgis=1#search_anchor
James
t...@clearwire.net
I suspect that he means that the manuscript was preserved at
Huntingdon at the time it was copied in the 1290s. Skene, when he
published it, simply indicated it was from "Ms. in Pub. Archiv.
London." See:
http://ia311343.us.archive.org/1/items/chroniclesofpict00sken/chroniclesofpict00sken.pdf
> Another question arises from another work quoted by Douglas
> Richardson, New England Hist. & Gen. Register:http://books.google.com/books?id=jZwPAAAAYAAJ&q=Margaret+Ralph+lovel&...
>
> The author states that "Edgar [the Atheling] was undoubtedly
> married. Henry of Huntingdon mentions his family and says
> his daughter Margaret, was the mother of Henry Lovel."
>
> This author seems to have confused the "Cronica Canonicorum Beate
> Marie Huntingdonie" (Chronicle of the Canons of Huntingdon) with
> Henry of Huntingdon's "Historia Anglorum", which does not say a
> word about Edgar's daughter. If this author can confuse two
> sources in this way, it is legitimate to doubt the value of his
> "undoubtedly married".
Yes, this confusion was identified back in the 2000 discussion. As to
"undoubtedly married, that is his own opinion. We could debate
whether his opinion was based on the true provenance or the false, but
it is still just another opinion.
> Finally, on a different topic, Wikipedia says that the place of
> Edgar the Atheling's burial is unknown. But I have found a
> statement that he was buried beside his grandfather, Edmund
> Ironside, in Glastonbury. I can only see a snippet view so I
> can't tell what source was used by the amazingly named
> Edmund King, author of "A Northamptonshire Miscellany" (1983).
> Here's the link, for what it's worth:http://books.google.com/books?ei=VBdmSd66CoPIlQSt_MT5Ag&id=TnZnAAAAMA...
>
I just looked for some of the text and found it in several available
books. Look for "edgar avum suum in". It is from Henry of Huntingdon.
taf
Jared & Christina Olar
almost as old as "Londoniis/Londres."
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Watson" <Watso...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, wife of Ralph Lovel
and Thomas de London
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/htol/lundin3.html
Regards,
John
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
Renia
> Electricscotland, indeed, gives the following text, whatever it's worth:
>
>
> Clan Lundin / Lundie
>
> Chapter One – An Historic Fife-shire family
I seem to remember one of your ancestors went from Scotland to Sweden,
M.S. I can't remember the details. Did the Lundins do the same?
I know a Swedish Lundin family, from Lund, as it happens. They don't
look "Swedish", as in long blonde hair, etc, more Norwegian with their
darker hair.
M.Sjostrom
I have no information about any Lundins who had moved to Sweden.
Not knowing anything solid of the background of the Lundins in sweden,
my *educated guess* is that like so many others whose surname ends with -in or -en (untypical for actually scandinavian words), their name was something of 1600s-1700s educated class (priests, bureaucrats or like) who adopted a latin-looking name, formed from some swedish word; and later, the latin -us ending got dropped.
Lund is certainly a swedish word, and name (or part of name) of several places in sweden. That an educated swede adopts surname such as 'Lundinus' on basis of some Lund, is no surprise in 1600s...
the ancient town of Lund itself did not belong to Sweden until late 1600s.
John Watson
Douglas,
If you look in this publication:
Spalding Club, Vol. 17, Illustrations of the Topography and
Antiquities of the Shires of Aberdeen and Banff, Vol. 2 (1847) p. 55
http://books.google.com/books?id=qBIdAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA55
There is a transcription of the grant of the wood of Trostach, "Carta
Thome Ostiarii de nemore de Trostach" to the monks of Arbroath by
Thomas de London, "Thomas de Lundin ostiarius domini Regis Scocie".
Thomas de Lundin doorkeeper of the King of the Scots. The editors have
dated this grant to 1203-1214.
There are also transcriptions of the confirmation of the grant by Alan
his son and confirmation by King Alexander on 2 October 1233.
In another grant of the church of Echt (page 42), to the monastery of
Scone, dated about 1220, Thomas describes himself as "Thomas filius
Malcolmi de Lunden hostiarius domini Regis". This gift of the church
of Echt was confirmed to Scone by Pope Honorius II on 17 December
1226.
Regards,
John
Renia
Thanks!
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO...@scs.uiuc.edu
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> question, namely did Edgar the Atheling (died c.1126) [brother of
> Queen Margaret of Scotland (she d. 1093)], leave surviving issue?
> Reading the newsgroup archives, I see that this matter was discussed
> here once briefly back in 2000. At that time, the question was left
> unresolved.
>
So now it seems that yes, Malcolm Durward was brother to Eschyna de Molle.
This is a very important connection ... since the progenitor of the
Stewarts Alan Fitz Walter (d. 1204) was her son, and William Bruce
Lord of Annandale, ancestor of Robert I, married her daughter. This makes
"all" of Scotland the descendants of the last of the Anglo-Saxon
kings of England if the Edgar connection is true! You can't get
more important than that.
The lists of immigrant gateways given by Richardson is therefore
somewhat contracted from reality, given his extreme slighting of Scotland.
Doug McDonald
M.Sjostrom
I believe practically the same amount (if not even more) of Scots, are descendants of 'last Anglo-Saxon kings of England' already because of the very well attested children who St.Margaret of Wessex birthed to her husband, king Mael Choluim III.
The added value of a Londin/Lundie connection FROM Edgar is just that St.Margaret's brother, Edgar Atheling, would also be a direct ancestor of practically the same people.
As Edgar was not exactly a real ruler, it imo does not add any worthwhile ancestry among 'the last kings'....
Rather, a descent from Edgar Atheling could be a reason for claiming to be rightful heirs of Anglosaxon kings, in a bit different line of succession, instead of heir of the line of St.Margaret.
so, a relatively well-attested and more secure lineage, gets rivals from a markedly more unsecure lineage.... which is exactly the way how several succession disputes arose in Middle Ages... (such as, an impostor claimed to be the rightful one...)
And this somehow in my view gives a label of *possible impostorship* to this entire 'daughter of Edgar atheling'
In my opinion, a somewhat solider evidence should be expected of a (possibly Norman) family 'de Londres' being ancestors of Mael Choluim of Lundie, than just some googlebooks finds, which usually are -in this sort of weakly known lineages- mostly outcome of later genealogical concoctions to add prominent and reigning ancestors to middle-tier noble families...
Where are original near-contemporary sorces to attest the identification of father of Euchyna, or the father of Mael Choluim of Lundie ???
In my opinion, even if such identification survives critical checks, still this hinges on the obviously *non-contemporary* belief in the Huntigdon source, a belief that a certain attested woman and wife Margaret, were really daughter of Edgar Atheling.
A late 1200s source (such as, 1290s) of a woman being daughter of someone who died in 1120s, is obviously very potential to be a genealogical glitter. Over a hundred years. Heck, over 150 years...
We should know that people tend to get details often wrong in their roots a hundred years earlier. It has been seen in so many seize quartiers and pedigree recounts, when the generation of great-great-grandparents is in question.
And that's happening because a hundred years earlier is just a time that a person cannot have personal memories, and elder family members that person has met, usually were just a bit too late to have own memories of the time *hundred years earlier*
As illustrated: a young person, 20-30 yrs old, had discussed even in detail with a great-aunt, then 80 yrs old. The young person in own 50th year (say 30 yrs after those discussions), possibly has knowledge of that old family member, whose birth was 110 yrs earlier. Who might have remembered correctly her family events from her 10th year (= 100 years eralier). And even that is second-hand data.
Third-hand data (the practically only way to have yet older details) would have inevitable misunderstandings and incorrectnesses.
I would not trust too much in the Huntingdon source, over 150 years later than Edgar Atheling's death.
Why is there no mention in 1100s of Edgar Atheling's daughter. Or some claim to the English throne.
M.Sjostrom
"The lists of immigrant gateways given by Richardson is therefore
somewhat contracted from reality, given his extreme slighting of Scotland. "
----
We cannot expect much from someone who focuses on Magna Carta and Plantagenets.
I have had an impression that Douggie does not actually know much of Scotland, nor of its genealogy. Understanding of Gaelic features appear low. Names in his babblings and bubblings appear to follow artificial englishry.
His occasional traipsings to scottish lineages appear always to have some background in some mediocre english family...
For me, Scotland (perhaps because of its solider and more frequent, Scandinavian connections) has always been tad more interesting than english gentry.
Douglas Richardson
Below is my current file account of Sir Alan Durward. It appears
that Sir Alan Durward signed one of his charters to Coupar Angus at
"Lundyn," which is presumably his paternal seat. See the following
snippet weblink for that reference:
http://books.google.com/books?id=k3UTAAAAIAAJ&dq=Coupar+Angus&q=Lundyn&pgis=1#search_anchor
The exact place of Lundin is iffy. Some believe that it is a place
called Lundin in Fife. But this place was allegedly granted c.
1166-1171 by King Malcolm IV to Philip the Chamberlain. See the
following weblinks for that reference:
http://books.google.com/books?id=XbQ1AAAAIAAJ&q=Lundin+Fife&dq=Lundin+Fife&pgis=1
Yet an article in Scottish Notes &Queries, 4 (1891): 34–36 states that
there "were Durwards of Lundin in Fife." See the following weblink
for that reference:
http://books.google.com/books?id=A5K-Cy3815oC&pg=PA34&dq=Lundin+Fife+Durward#PPA34,M1
I imagine the correct place can be established, if one has a mind to
do so.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Sir Alan Durward, Knt., Usher of the King of Scots, Justiciar of
Scotland, sometime Earl of Atholl
I. ALAN DURWARD, Knt., of Coull and Lumphanan, Aberdeenshire,
Lintrathen, Angus, Lundin, [?Fife], Reedie (in Airlie), Forfarshire,
Urquhart, Moray, etc., Usher of the King of Scots, styled Justiciar of
Scotland, 1243–1251x1252, 1255, sometime Earl of Athol, son and heir
of Thomas de Lundin (or Thomas Fitz Malcolm de Lundin), of Skene,
Echt, Kinerny, Banchory, Midmar, Kincardine Oneill, Lumphanan, Alford,
Coull, and Leochel, Usher of the King of Scots, Sheriff of Fife,
Sheriff of Inverness. He married before 4 July 1251 (date of charter)
MARJORY OF SCOTLAND, illegitimate daughter of Alexander II, King of
Scotland, by an unknown mistress. They had three daughters,
Ermengarde (wife of William de Soules, Butler of Scotland, Justiciar
of Lothian), Anne (wife of Colban, 8th Earl of Fife, and William de
Ferrers, Knt., of Groby), and _____ (possibly wife of John Bisset).
By an unknown mistress, he also had an illegitimate son, Thomas. He
founded a hospital for the poor at Kincardine Oneill, Aberdeenshire.
In March 1233/4 he gave to the Hospital of Kincardine one davach of
land called Sutheluthy and the advowson of the church of Kincardine in
Mar to sustain the brothers of the hospital and the poor. Sometime
before 1249 he was granted the thanage of Kincardine Oneill,
Aberdeenshire by his wife’s father, King Alexander II. In the period,
1249–1256, he granted Peter, Bishop of Aberdeen 22 shillings sterling
from his land of Skene in exchange for the 2nd teinds of Oneill,
Aberdeenshire which the predecessors of the bishop were accustomed to
receive from the grant of King David I of Scotland. In 1250 he gave
to the Hospital of Kincardine Oneill, Aberdeenshire two davachs of
land, one called Sudluyth and one called Kincardine Oneill. In 1251
he granted five marks sterling annually to the chapel of St. Mary in
the parish of Logindurnach for the celebration of divine services, to
be paid out of his land in Kinnerny (?in Midmar). In 1251 there was
suspicion that he sought his wife’s legitimization that she might
become heir in succession to the throne of Scotland. In 1253 he
accompanied King Henry III on his expedition to Guienne. In 1255 he
was appointed one of the guardians of King Alexander III of Scotland
during the king’s minority. In 1256 Walter, Abbot of Arbroath granted
him a charter of lands in Banchory (in Banchory-Devenick),
Kincardineshire. In 1264, acting on royal orders, he and the Earls of
Buchan and Mar attacked the western islands. They killed those who
had urged King Haakon IV of Norway to come to Scotland, expelled some,
hanged others, and returned with great booty. In 1264 he owed 26s. 8-
½d. from the fermes of Dull, Perthshire. In 1266 he granted to
Lindores Abbey a toft of land held by the late Adam, clerk, in
Inirbervyn (now Bervie), Kincardineshire). SIR ALAN DURWARD died in
1275, and was buried at Coupar Angus Abbey, Perthshire.
References:
Innes, Registrum Episcopatus Aberdonensis 1 (1845): 15–16, 17
(agreement of Sir Alan Durward dated 1247–1256), 27, 30–34, 57, 83; 2
(1845): 268–269 (charter of Alan Durward dated 1233/4), 273–275
(charter of Alan Durward dated 1250; charter witnessed by his brother
[fratre], Sir Colin Durward). Edward I. of England in the North of
Scotland (1858): 71, 95. Book of the Thanes of Cawdor (1859): 1–2
(re. Durward family). Robertson, Scotland Under Her Early Kings 2
(1862): 60–61, 63–66, 76–78, 97, 114, 192–193. Campbell, Balmerino &
Its Abbey (1867): 30. Skene, Coronation Stone (1869): 47. Jervise,
Epitaphs & Inscriptions (1875): 280. Marshall, Hist. Scenes in
Forfarshire (1875): 292–294 (Alan Durward: “… he was one of the most
powerful faction which espoused the English interest”). Skene, Celtic
Scotland 3 (1880): 352–353. Warden, Angus or Forfarshire (1884):
211. Scottish N&Q 4 (1891): 34–36; 3rd ser. 4 (1926): 192; 3rd ser. 5
(1927): 158–159 (re. Alan Durward: “In confirmation of a grant of the
wood of Trostach to the monks of Arbroath by Alan Durward in 1233, we
find that the [earlier] grant is said to have been made by ‘Thomas
Ostiarius, pater ejusdem Alani.’ This is clear proof that Alan was
the son of Thomas, and also that in 1233 he had succeeded his father …
Almost Earl of Mar, for a year or two Earl of Athole, ambitious,
intriguing, sumptuous, it is no wonder that with such connections, and
in such an age, he became a marked man, a great power in public
affairs, an interesting, even a romantice figure.”). Mackintosh,
Hist. of the Valley of the Dee (1895): 34–35, 110, 212. Watt, Hist.
of Aberdeen and Banff (1900): 40–41. Dowden, Chartulary of the Abbey
of Lindores 1198–1479 (Scottish Hist. Soc. 42) (1903): 26, 85–88
(charter of Alan Durward dated 4 July 1251, specifically names his
wife, Marjory; charter is witnessed by Alan’s brother, Colin Durward,
Knt.), 145 (charter of Alan Durward), 242–243, 258, 261. Dunbar,
Scottish Kings: A Revised Chronology of Scottish History, 1005–1625
(1906): 87–92, 282–283 (pedigree of the 13 competitors in 1291).
Easson, Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus 1 (Scottish Hist. Soc.
3rd Ser. 40) (1947): 122–124 (charter of Alan Durward dated 1250–
1256), 133–134 (charter of Alan Durward dated 1264). Bower,
Scotichronicon 5 (1987): 301 (sub A.D. 1251: “So at that time Robert
abbot of Dunfermline the king’s chancellor was accused of having
intended by the use of the great seal to legitimize the king’s
illegitimate sister, the wife of Alan Durward, so that she might be
the king’s heir in the succession to the kingdom. For fear of this
happening, as soon as he had entered Scotland secretly, he gave up the
seal to the king’s magnates and it was soon broken in pieces in front
of everybody.”), 403 (sub A.D. 1275: “In 1275 the death occurred of
Alan Durward, a wealthy man, very vigorous in arms, and very loyal to
the king and the realm. He was buried at the monastery of Coupar
[Angus], and his lands were divided amongst his three daughters.”).
Grant & Stringer, Medieval Scotland: Crown, Lordship & Community
(1993): 52, 55, 74, 79, 134–136, 175, 185. Blakely, Brus Fam. in
England & Scotland, 1100–1295 (2005): 63, 76–77. McAndrew, Scotland’s
Historic Heraldry (2006): 37 (pedigree of Earls of Fife) (identifies
Anne, wife of Colban, 8th Earl of Fife, as “Anne Durward”), 43 (arms
of Alan Durward: Argent, a chief gules), 51, 70–71, 113, 312.
James Hogg
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
>Dear Newsgroup ~
>
>Below is my current file account of Sir Alan Durward. It appears
>that Sir Alan Durward signed one of his charters to Coupar Angus at
>"Lundyn," which is presumably his paternal seat. See the following
>snippet weblink for that reference:
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=k3UTAAAAIAAJ&dq=Coupar+Angus&q=Lundyn&pgis=1#search_anchor
>
>The exact place of Lundin is iffy. Some believe that it is a place
>called Lundin in Fife. But this place was allegedly granted c.
>1166-1171 by King Malcolm IV to Philip the Chamberlain. See the
>following weblinks for that reference:
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=XbQ1AAAAIAAJ&q=Lundin+Fife&dq=Lundin+Fife&pgis=1
>
>Yet an article in Scottish Notes &Queries, 4 (1891): 34–36 states that
>there "were Durwards of Lundin in Fife." See the following weblink
>for that reference:
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=A5K-Cy3815oC&pg=PA34&dq=Lundin+Fife+Durward#PPA34,M1
>
>I imagine the correct place can be established, if one has a mind to
>do so.
It might be Lundie in Angus. That's in the Sidlaw Hills, just
above Coupar Angus. The place-name is Gaelic, probably from
_lunnd_ or _lunndann_, meaning "little marsh". That's according
to the book "The Sidlaw Hills" by David Dorward!
James
t...@clearwire.net
> I believe practically the same amount (if not even more) of Scots, are descendants of 'last Anglo-Saxon kings of England' already because of the very well attested children who St.Margaret of Wessex birthed to her husband, king Mael Choluim III.
>
> The added value of a Londin/Lundie connection FROM Edgar is just that St.Margaret's brother, Edgar Atheling, would also be a direct ancestor of practically the same people.
> As Edgar was not exactly a real ruler, it imo does not add any worthwhile ancestry among 'the last kings'....
>
> Rather, a descent from Edgar Atheling could be a reason for claiming to be rightful heirs of Anglosaxon kings, in a bit different line of succession, instead of heir of the line of St.Margaret.
> so, a relatively well-attested and more secure lineage, gets rivals from a markedly more unsecure lineage.... which is exactly the way how several succession disputes arose in Middle Ages... (such as, an impostor claimed to be the rightful one...)
Bear in mind, though, that this theoretical claim would not have
passed through her second Londin marriage, but the first, to Lovel.
The supposed heir, were this marriage true, would be the
representative of the Lovel's of Cary Castle. Of course, it is all
nonsense, since the English throne was not hereditary.
taf
M.Sjostrom
this brings forth the question: were those Lovels of Cary in late 1100s or anytime putting forth any claims to the royal Anglo-saxon succession ?
purporting to be leaders of anglosaxons ?
a royal line?
Or, any descendants of Margaret the wife of Lovel then possibly of de Londres
??
-------
In times of Richard I and king John, there were such political rifts that an arguable anglosaxon royal heir could have at least tried to win something out of it.
anglosaxons were still an oppressed element of population, and such considerations...
-------
I am highly skeptical of claims to royal descent which surfaces only some 200 years later,
instead of being at least in some occasion visible already when the claimed connection to royalty was close, and in living memory of some living contemporaries.
Those sorts of *remoter* descents (= surfacing later) are typical cases of such which were invented for decorating some family's pedigree.
Chronicle-writing clerics were in not that better position to avoid such decorated family trees. They hear some family and their acquaintances repeat the family claim, and such pedigree may end to be together with some more reliable stories in a chronicle or legend.
M.Sjostrom
"...since the English throne was not hereditary. "
The throne of anglosaxons was semi-hereditary, like so many other germanic kinships of those eras.
Eligibility for 'election' of the king was limited in a way that descendants of earlier kings were eligible, but generally not others. Male-line descendants were given priority, but quite often a cognatic descent came to be tolerated particularly if male liners were nearly extinct.
For example, in 1040s the elective throne of Denmark passed to sister's (or daughter's) son.
I believe it was a totally strange idea to germanic lordlings (the witenagemot) of those days, to elect anyone as proper king, who was not descended from anglosaxon kings...
and such was understandably a reason why some magnates induced the effort to concoct a royal pedigree for them.
-------------
t...@clearwire.net
> "...since the English throne was not hereditary. "
>
> The throne of anglosaxons was semi-hereditary, like so many other germanic kinships of those eras.
> Eligibility for 'election' of the king was limited in a way that descendants of earlier kings were eligible, but generally not others. Male-line descendants were given priority, but quite often a cognatic descent came to be tolerated particularly if male liners were nearly extinct.
>
> For example, in 1040s the elective throne of Denmark passed to sister's (or daughter's) son.
>
> I believe it was a totally strange idea to germanic lordlings (the witenagemot) of those days, to elect anyone as proper king, who was not descended from anglosaxon kings...
Such as Harold? When he was elected, they had as alternative
candidates, Edgar, a male-line descendant, and several female-line
descendants to choose from, but they chose Harold. Basically, Canute
broke the old system, and all bets were off, and any claim based on
heredity was only grist for the mill. At its heart, it was elective.
There was no 'heir'.
taf
M.Sjostrom
regarding Harold II:
Of course I could have got a wrong impression, but specifically Harold Godwinson's case stroke me as one where seemingly a (somewhat concocted) lineage from some much-earlier kings came forth, apparently to bestow legitimacy for his bid in the election.
That method, I believe, was quite the customary way to do those things in those centuries.
Norway, for example, in 1100s came to have at least twice a purported, illegitimate 'son of king' to actually acquire the real kingship.
t...@clearwire.net
> regarding Harold II:
>
> Of course I could have got a wrong impression, but specifically Harold Godwinson's case stroke me as one where seemingly a (somewhat concocted) lineage from some much-earlier kings came forth, apparently to bestow legitimacy for his bid in the election.
That lineage was not 'concocted' until about 1920, IIRC. There is no
evidence that, at the time, a descent from Cerdic was any part of
equation. Even Florence (or John), who tried to give his pedigree,
knew nothing of such a descent.
taf
Jared & Christina Olar
connected to the London family, subsequently called Durward. For example,
G.W.S. Barrow in his 1973 "Kingdom of the Scots," pp.353-4, says:
Mow (Roxburghshire)
Now in Morebattle parish. In view of the hilly character of the old parish
of Mow, and its present remoteness, it is surprising that a great many legal
documents related to its land have survived from the twelfth and thirteenth
centuries. It must then have been relatively heavily populated and
intensively cultivated. In the middle of the twelfth century Mow belonged to
Uhtred, son of Liulf. About 1161, it was granted to Walter the Stewart by
King Malcolm IV, along with Legerwood and Birkenside, the three estates
forming one knight's fee.
According to Sir Archiblad Lawre, Walter I's wife, usually called Eschina of
Mow, was Uhtred's daughter. This would suggest that Mow passed into Walter
I's possession as his wife's inheritance. But in one record, Eschina is
called Eschina 'of London' (de Londoniis), which suggests that she was in
fact related to the family of that name settled in southern Scotland in the
reign of David I. This may be th family of the same name who can be traced
in twelfth-century Somerset (like the Lovels and (?) Berkeleys). Eschina was
perhaps Uhtred's granddaughter (see RRS, ii, no. 245, comment).
Mow was much subinfeudated, and the descents of the various fees are
extremely difficult if not impossible to work out. It may be noted here that
Eschina, Walter I's wife, enfeoffed ROBERT CROS in a small part of Mow,
which came with his daughter ISABEL to her husband ROBERT OF POLLOK,
doubtless son of Robert son of Fulbert (see above, under Stenton and
Pollok).
G.W.S. Barrow's 1980 "The Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History," p. 65,
says:
No doubt his [i.e. Walter son of Alan, steward to David I, Malcolm IV, and
William I] wife also was found for him by the king: Eschina, variously known
as 'de Londres' or 'of Mow,[17] styles which point to her being the
granddaughter and heir of Uhtred son of Liulf, native lord of Mow in
Roxburghshire,[18] her father being a member of the de Londres or London
family.
[17] Kelso Liber, nos. 146, 147, 148; Melrose Liber, i. 259.
[18] Kelso Libert, no. 176. Uhtred son of Liulf seems to have had a son
named Adam and a brother named Liulf who had a son William (St. Bees Reg.,
550-1; Kelso Liber, no. 170), so that when Malcolm IV in 1161 granted Mow
(in marriage?) to Walter I son of Alan (RRS i, no. 183) he may have been
overriding the rights of male heirs, for which practice see above, pp. 23-4.
In the case of Mow, the problem is complicated by our ignorance of the
identity of Eschina of London's second husband Henry, by whom she evidently
had daughters Cecily and Maud who were heirs in Mow. Was he, perhaps, Henry
son of Anselm, alias Henry of Carmunnock (Paisley Reg., 105) and son of the
Anselm 'de Wichetune' or 'of Mow' noticed below, n. 20?
Further on, in Appendix B, pp.183-4, Barrow discusses the "de LONDRES" or
LONDON family (LONDONIIS, LONDONIARUM), concluding, "Another member of the
family (a long-lived daughter of Richard I de London?) was Eschina de London
who married (as her first husband) Walter son of Alan the first of the
Stewarts (above, p.65)," and comments that "Black, Surnames, s.v. LUNDIN, is
seriously misleading."
I have seen Eschyna placed as sister of Malcolm de Londoniis, 1st hereditary
Doorward, and thus daughter of Thomas de Londoniis, but I'm, practically
speaking, unfamiliar with the London and Mow families and the primary
sources and the arguments that support Eschyna's placement as a sister of
Malcolm.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: <"mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH ME"@scs.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, wife of Ralph Loveland
Thomas de London
Jared & Christina Olar
Jared L. Olar
>> So now it seems that yes, Malcolm Durward was brother to Eschyna de
>> Molle.
>>
>> This is a very important connection ... since the progenitor of the
>> Stewarts Alan Fitz Walter (d. 1204) was her son, and William Bruce
>> Lord of Annandale, ancestor of Robert I, married her daughter. This makes
>> "all" of Scotland the descendants of the last of the Anglo-Saxon
>> kings of England if the Edgar connection is true! You can't get
>> more important than that.
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Jared & Christina Olar
way to describe it) first appeared, except, as Todd said, I'm pretty sure it
was a 20th century hypothetical construction unattested in the primary
sources. According to Searle's "Anglo-Saxon Bishops, Kings, and Nobles
(1899), pp.358-9, Florence of Worcester shows the genealogy as Harold son of
Godwine son of Wulfnoth son of Aegelmaer (or Aethelmaer) son of Aegelric (or
Aethelric). That lineage has been tacked onto the family of Aethelweard the
Chronicler, whose son Aethelmaer se Greata (the Fat) or Agelmarus was
identified as Harold II's great-grandfather Aethelmaer/Aegelmaer son of
Aethelric/Aegelric. Aethelweard the Chronicler was a descendant of King
Aethelred I, older brother of King Alfred the Great. In this constructed
lineage of Harold II, Aethelred I's son Aethelhelm was identified as
great-grandfather of Aethelweard the Chronicler.
Aethelweard the Chronicler was Aethelred's descendant, but I don't know if
the line "Eadric-Aethelfrith-Aethelhelm-Aethelred I" is correct. Anyway the
biggest problem is identifying Harold's great-grandfather Aethelmaer as the
Aethelmaer who was son of the Chronicler -- that doesn't seem to be correct,
and it's important to note that the primary sources never identify Earl
Godwine and his family as of royal descent or descendants of Cerdic. I'm
pretty sure all of this has been thoroughly discussed on Gen-Medieval during
those years that I was away from the list.
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret,wife of Ralph Lovel and
Thomas de London
> regarding Harold II:
>
> Of course I could have got a wrong impression, but specifically Harold
> Godwinson's case stroke me as one where seemingly a (somewhat concocted)
> lineage from some much-earlier kings came forth, apparently to bestow
> legitimacy for his bid in the election.
>
> That method, I believe, was quite the customary way to do those things in
> those centuries.
> Norway, for example, in 1100s came to have at least twice a purported,
> illegitimate 'son of king' to actually acquire the real kingship.
>
>
>
>
>
>
wjhonson
> The exact place of Lundin is iffy. Some believe that it is a place
> called Lundin in Fife. But this place was allegedly granted c.
> 1166-1171 by King Malcolm IV to Philip the Chamberlain. See the
> following weblinks for that reference:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=XbQ1AAAAIAAJ&q=Lundin+Fife&dq=Lundin...
>
> Yet an article in Scottish Notes &Queries, 4 (1891): 34–36 states that
> there "were Durwards of Lundin in Fife." See the following weblink
> for that reference:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=A5K-Cy3815oC&pg=PA34&dq=Lundin+Fife+...
>
> I imagine the correct place can be established, if one has a mind to
> do so.
------------------------
This had been addressed by a post I made earlier.
See
http://books.google.com/books?id=aZELAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA30&dq=Malcolm+Dorward
Where Thomas and Philip were *brothers*, but their lands "Lundie"
being in Fife, versus Forfarshire
Will Johnson
t...@clearwire.net
> This had been addressed by a post I made earlier.
> Seehttp://books.google.com/books?id=aZELAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA30&dq=Malcolm+Dorward
>
> Where Thomas and Philip were *brothers*, but their lands "Lundie"
> being in Fife, versus Forfarshire
This looks awfully suspicious. Two brothers named Lundin being
granted properties in different counties, both coincidentally called
Lundie.
taf
wjhonson
I'd say that we'd have to see the original language of the grants.
Either their surname, or the "name" of the lands could be taken one
from the other, not contemporaneous. So the land
called ...whatever... was later called "Lundie" just because it was
owned by a "de Lundin". Or vice versa, that they were never called
"Lundin" until after they were granted lands called "Lundie".
We have to see the original language.
Will Johnson
t...@clearwire.net
> I'd say that we'd have to see the original language of the grants.
> Either their surname, or the "name" of the lands could be taken one
> from the other, not contemporaneous. So the land
> called ...whatever... was later called "Lundie" just because it was
> owned by a "de Lundin".
Possible, I guess, but I would have to think real hard of another
place named for it's lord (and not, for example, with the lord's name
added as a modifier, like Shepton Mallet or Saudi Arabia, but with it
as the only name). Two in the same generation in the same family, when
there is a reasonable Gaelic origin for the toponym?
> Or vice versa, that they were never called
> "Lundin" until after they were granted lands called "Lundie".
And again, what are the odds, this happening to two brothers. What it
looks like to me is that two unrelated men, from different places with
a common toponym, were turned into brothers by an antiquarian of the
typical 19th century variety. Do we have independent evidence that
Thomas and Philip were siblings?
taf
Doug
There is a relevant book published in 2005:
History of the Clan Lundy, Lundie, Lundin: One of the Most Ancient
Families of the Kingdom of Scotland: A History And Genealogy from the
11th Century to the Present Day (Hardcover)
by Robert Alan Lundie Smith
I have not seen it yet.
Doug Smith
Alex Maxwell Findlater
reference to this article. Geoffrey Barrow told me that he had sold a
lot of books, so I hot-footed off to buy at least some of them and
among those was this article. I now know that it was from Anglo-
Norman Studies. Thanks.
While I don't think that there is anything wrong with the descent of
Margaret from Edgar the Atheling and certainly Barrow accepts it,
whether she was legitimate is another matter and it is significant
that we have no knowledge of a wife of Edgar, just as, eg, we have no
wife for Sir James Douglas, the Good. In his case this is doubtless
because his son predeceased him and so his wife was not relevant to
any later descent of the house.
In the case of the Molles and Lundins, I have three Eschina's in my
reconstruction; one the wife of Liulf, by whom he inherited Molle, he
being son of Maccus and therefore having Maxton from his father; one
his daughter who married both Henry de Molle and Thomas de Lundin
(sister of Uchtred de Molle d ca 1170 and cecilia who m Robert de
berkeley); the last the daughter of Eschina and Thomas de Lundin, who
married the Steward and Robert de Croc. I don't know whether this
reconstruction is approved by the best scholars or not, but it seems
to fit the facts which I know. The difficulty is the chronology,
which is too tight, suggesting that somewhere the dates are not
estimated rightly.
Jared & Christina Olar
she could have been named Eschina. The other two of your three Eschinas
are one and the same woman. Barrow certainly thought/thinks so, judging
from the information I posted from his books. Also, what evidence is there
that Walter fitz Alan's wife Eschina also married Robert de Croc?
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Maxwell Findlater" <maxwellf...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, wife of Ralph Lovel
and Thomas de London
Micha...@frontiernet.net
Malcom de Lundin inherited Lundin in Fife which had originally
belonged to Philip de Lundin, Chamberlain of David I.
Regesta Regum Scottorum Vol. 1, The Acts of Malcolm IV King of Scots
1153-1165, collected and edited by G.W.S. Barrow, M.A. b. Litt,
University Press, Edinburgh, 1960:
Pages 270-271:
255. Grants to Philip the chamberlain and his heirs, in fee and
inheritance, Lundin in Fife, for one knight's service. Aberdeen. (1161
X 20 september, 1164).
Malcolmus Rex Scottorum episcopis abbatibus comitibus baronibus
justiciis vicecomitibus prepositis ministris et omnibus probis
hominibus totius Scotie salutem. Sciant presentes et posteri me
dedisse et concessisse et hac mea carta confirmasse in feudo et
hereditate Philippo camerario et heredibus suis Lundin in Fif cum suis
pertinentiis per rectas divisas suas. Quare volo et precipio ut ipse
Philippus et heredes eius predictam feudam teneant de me et de
heredibus meis in feudo et hereditate plenarie libere et quiete
honorifice cum omnibus libertatibus et rectitudinibus ad idem feudum
pertinentibus in bosco et plano in terris et aquis in campis pratis
pascuis et in omnibus aliis rectis pertinentiis suis. Per servitium
unius militis. testibus Andrea episcopo de Caten', Ada Comitissa,
Engelramo cancellario, Comite Dunecano, Gillebride comite de Anegus,
Comite Morgano, Philippo de Coleuill', Willelmo de Haia, Johanne de
Vallibus, Willelmo de Lindisi, malisio filio Leodi, Gillandro filio
Alfwini. Apud Aberdon.
Thomas de Londoniis had two brothers Maurice and Richard. He is
probably related to the Kidwelley line. The following charter of his
nephew shows this:
Liber S. Marie de Dryburgh, Registrum Cartarum Abbaie Premonstratensis
de Dryburgh, by John Spottiswoode, Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh, 1847:
Pages 42:
54. Super ecclesia de Lassidewyn.
Universis etc. Robertus de Londonia saluetm. Sciant tam posteri quam
presentes me dedisse et hac carta mea confirmasse ecclesie Sancte
Marie de Driburgh et conventui ibidem Deo sevienti pro anima patris
mei Ricardi de Londonia et matris mee Matild de Fereres et Mauricii et
Thome de Londonia pro salute anima mee in perpetuam elemosinam
ecclesiam de Lessedewyn cum omnibus suis pertinentiis predicte vero
ecclesie conventus recipet ad servitium Dei quator clericos quo eis
ego prefignabo congrous pre animabus predictorum parentum meorum et
salute anime mee omnibus defunctis alios perpetuo abstineant et ideo
volo ut predictam ecclesiam ita libere et quiete teneant sicut aliqua
ecclesia liberius quietiusque tenetur. Testibus, etc.
Thomas de Londoniis married Margaret the widow of Ralph Lovel by whom
she had a son Henry Lovel:
Regesta Regum Scottorum Vol. 2, The Acts of William I King of Scots
1165-1214, collected and edited by G.W.S. Barrow, M.A. b. Litt,
University Press, Edinburgh, 1971:
Page 163, 164:
62. Confirmation of William I of Scotland of various grants to
Jedburgh Abbey. These include: Margaret, wife of Thomas of London,
with the consent of Thomas[de Londoniis] and Henry Lovel, Margaret's
son: Outerside (in Roberton).
"Ex dono Margarete uxoris Thome de Londoniis concedentibus eodem Thoma
[de Londoniis] et Henrico Louel filio eiusdem Margarete Ughtredesxaghe
cum suis rectis divisas."
Roberton is near Hawick which was the Lovel homestead in Scotland.
Thomas and Margaret may or may not have had heirs. The possibility of
the descent from Edgar Aethilng was first proposed on this group by
David Kelley and Don Stone:
"There is onomastic evidence supporting the allegation of a
relationship
between Henry Lovel's wife Margaret and Edgar the Aetheling.
Margaret,
Henry Lovel's wife, is the second Margaret historically attested in
the
British Isles. It is not implausible to think that she might be
related
to the first one, Edgar's sister and Malcolm's wife. If Anderson's
allegation that Edgar's wife is named Margaret (and is a sister of
Malcolm) has some basis, we might have here a third Margaret, though
this one may have assumed the name Margaret in connection with her
brother's marriage and used it in parallel with her original Gaelic
name; it is, of course, entirely possible that this latter Margaret
is
fictitious.
Incidentally, Margaret Lovel's son Henry has a name which has come up
in
discussions of Agatha of Hungary.
-- Don Stone and David Kelley"
Thomas de Londoniis held a portion of Lessedwyn [now St. Boswell's].
It appears from the property distribution after his death [as well as
Margaret's] that the Lessedwyn property went tyo his nephew Robert as
next male heir:
Liber Sancte Marie de Melros Munimenta Vetustiora Monasterii
Cisterciensis de Melros, Tomus Primus, Edinburgi, MDCCCXXXVII:
Pages 76-77:
Carta Roberto de Londoniis super carrucata terre in Lessedwine.
Robertus de Londoniis omnibus filiis ecclesie tam clericis quam laicis
salutem. Notum sit vobis me hac mea presenti carta confirmasse cartam
patris mei qua dedit et confirmavit Deo et Sancte Marie et monachis de
Melros dimidiam carrucatam terre suis et ego ipsi dimidie carrucate
apposui et adieci reliquum terre auod adiacet usque ad derestedt et
sic via descendit in oblico apud orientem usque in torrentem. Hec
omnia concessi et dedi pro salute amine mee et pro anima Thome patrui
mei et pro animabus patris et matris mee et omnium parentum meorum.
His testibus Willelmo filio Odardi, et Henrico filio Iordani, Willelmo
clerico de chausi, Rogero clerico qua hac carta scripsit, Ricardo de
Cameis, Macho preposito, et Osmundon samulo meo.
Confirmatio Willelmo Rege de terra in Lessedwin.
W. rex Scottie omnibus probis hominibus tocius terre sue clericis et
laicis salutem. Sciant presentes et futuri me concessisse et hac carta
mea confirmasse Deo et ecclesie Sancte Marie de Mailros et monachis
ibidem Deo servientibus dimidiam carucatam terre qua Ricardus de
Londoniis eis dedit in Lessedwin tenendam in liberam et perpetuam
elemosinam ita bene et plenarie quiete et honorifice sicut carta
ipsuis Ricardi eis testatur. Teste David fratre meo, Nicholao
cancellario, Alano filio Dapiferio, Willelmo de Haia, Hugone de
Exarti, Willemo de Mortemer, Roberto filio Jordani. Apud Seleschirche.
Liber S. Marie de Dryburgh, Registrum Cartarum Abbaie Premonstratensis
de Dryburgh, by John Spottiswoode, Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh, 1847:
Page 44:
58. Super toftis et pomerio et terra et prato ecclesie predicte
concessis.
Thomas de Londonia omnibus sancte matris ecclesie etc. salutem.
Sciatis quod ego dedi et hac mea carta confirmavi Deo et ecclesie
Sancte Marie de Lessedewyn pro anima domini mei David Regis et pro
anima Margarete uxoris mee et pro salute anime mee et omnium
antecessorum meorum toftas quas habui ex australi parte ecclesie ex
dimedium pomerii juxta ecclesiam quod meum fuit et terram et pratum ex
occidentali parte ecclesie usque ad magnam viam que vadit erga Eldoun
et ex aquilonali parte ecclesie terram a cimiterio ultra quoddam vetus
fossatum sicut eam in principio dedi et assignavi usque in Tweddam in
liberam et puram et perpetuam elemosinam ita quod persona ecclesie
constituet unum altare in honore Sancte Margarete Virginis in parte
australi ejusdem ecclesie atque singulis ebdomadis unam missam pro
anima domini mei Regis David et pro anima Margarete uxoris mee et pro
animabus omnium fidelium defunctorum in eodem cantare faciet. testante
et consulente parte nostro domino Henrico episcopo Glasguensi etc.
Page 45:
59. Confirmacio super dictis toftis et dimidio pomerii et terra et
prato.
Robertus de Londonia omnibus ecetera salutem. Sciant tam posteri quam
presentes me pro salute anime mee et animabus patris et matris mee et
omnium antecessorum et successorum meorum concessisse et hac mea carta
confirmasse in puram et liberam elemosinam terras quas Thomas de
Londonia dedit et confirmavit ecclesie Sancte Marie de Lessedewyn
scilicet toftas quas habuit ex australi parte ecclesie et dimidium
pomerii juxta ecclesiam quo suum erat de terram et partum ex
occidentali parte ipsius ecclesie usque ad magnum viam que vadit erga
Eldoun et ex aquilonali parte terram a cimiterio ultra quoddam vetus
fossatum sicut eam in principio dedit et assignavit usque in Twedem in
liberam et perpetuam elemosinam pro animabus antecessorum et
successorum suorum et persona predicte ecclesie faciet unam missam
singulis ebdomadis cantari super altare Sancte Margarete Virginis quod
predictus Thomas de Londonia fieri jussit pro anima Margarete sponse
sue et pro animabus omnium fidelium defunctorum.
Eschyna de Londoniis married Walter Fitz Alan and Henry de Molle. She
was the mother of Alan Fitz Walter and Christian. She had four
daughters by Henry de Molle, Avicia, Eschyna, Cecilia and Margaret.
Cecilia married Simon Maleverer:
Liber S. Marie de Calchou, Registrum Cartarum Abbacie Tironensis de
Kelso, 1113-1567, Vol. I, edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne Club,
Edinburgh, 1846:
Pages 113-114:
146. Carta super ecclesiam de Molle.
Universis sancte matris ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Eschina de
Londoniis salutem. Noverint omnes tam posteri qua presentes me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse ecclesie Sancte Marie de
Kelcho et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus ecclesiam de Molle cum
terris et omnibus aliis libertatibus sicut habuerunt et tenuerunt eo
die quo hec carta facta est; in liberam et perpetuam elemosinam et
pretera dedi et concessi eis pro anima domini mei Gauterii filii Alani
et pro anima filie mee que apud Kelcho sepulta est et pro salute anime
mee et omnium antecessorum et successorum meorum ut ipi et capellus
aliis homines eorum in ipsam villa de Molla ser terra ecclesie
manentes; habeant communem pasturam sum ronabili instrauramento et
cetera aisiamenta in bosco in plano in focali et in omnibus aliis
aisiamentis in ipsam villa de Molle cum hominibus meis de Molle, H.
autem omnia volo ut ita libere et quiete habeant et in perpetuam
elemosinam possideant sicut hiis carta tesatur et sicut liberius et
quiecius habent et possident alias elemosinas suas in regno Scottorum
fecant est ad hec carta Anno MCLXXXV incaraoines Domini ii Kalends
Februarii. Hiis testibus Symon capello de Molle, Andrea clerico de
Sprouifta, Hugo Ridel, Willelmo de Sancto Michaele, Nicholao Edulpho
et Gillemo de Molle, Roberto Marescaldum de Molle, Malcomo de Keth,
Ricardo de Fachnes, Hugo Brec, Ricardo de Suapham.
Pages 114-115:
147. Super Ecclesia de Molle.
Universis sancte matris ecclesie filiis et fidelibus Domina Eschina de
Ludoniis eternam in domino salute,. Noverunt eos presentes et futuri
me concessisse et hac presenti carta mea confirmasse in liberam et
puram et perpetuam elemosinam Deo et Ecclesie Sancte Marie de Kelcho
et monachis ibidem Deo serivientibus Ecclesiam de Molle quantuam ad me
pertinent cum omnibus iustis pertinenciis suis in terris et pasturis
et omnibus aisiamentis ipius ville sicut cyrograffum iter nos et ipsos
confectum testatur. Et pretera pasturam xx vaccis et vitulis eorumdem
usque dum sint superannati et uni tauro et pretem quondam parti inter
Eddridesete et Rivulum de Ruhope sicut homines eorum anum me tenuerunt
usque ad aquam de Blakepol et illam pretem terre que iacibus super
ripam Bolebant contra Blakepol et vroft quod iacibus boriali preter
domus Willelmi forestarii subtus Hogham et omniem rectitudinem quem
videbatur ad me pertine de molendino quietam clamavi prenominatis
monachis inperpetuum. Hanc ad concessionem et confirmacionem feci pro
salute dominorum meorum Regis Willelmi et Alexandri filii eius et pro
salute anime mee et heredum meorum et pro animabus patris mei et
matris mee et pro animabus dominorum meorum domini Walterii filii
Alani et Domini Henricii et pro anima Eschine filie mee et omnium
antecessorum et successorum meorum. Quare volo ut predicti monachi has
predictas elemosinas habeant et possideant ita libere quite pacifice
honorifice sicut aliqua elemosina liberius quiecius pacificencius
honorificencius in regno Scottorum tenetur et possidetur. Hiis
Testibus Domina Avicia filia mea, Domina Cecilia filia mea, Gamello
clerico, Ricardo capello, Ricardo de Nicolao, Nicholao filius Ade,
Ricardo Scoto, Matheo de Hou, Roberto Marescaldo, Symone Morello,
Johanne Coquo cum multis aliis.
Registrum Monasterii de Passelet, Cartas Privilegia Conventiones
alique Munimenta Complectens, 1163-1529, edited by Cosmo Innes,
Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh 1832:
Page 15:
Confirmatio de Fultone, et donatio ecclesie et capellarum de Bote, per
cartam Alani filii Walteri, fundatoris.
Sciant presentes et futuri, quod ego Alanus filius Walteri, dapifer
Regis Scotie, concedo et hac mea carta confirmo domui mee de Passelet
et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus et inperpetuum servituris,
donationem illam quam Henricus de Sancto Martino eis fecit per
consilium meum et voluntatem, et concensu Gilberti filii sui et
heredis, de tota terra sua inter Kert et Grif, in liberam et perpetuam
elemosinam eis semper habenda, ita plene et integre, sicut idem
Henricus dictam terram plenius et integrius tenuit vel tenere debuit
ex dono Walteri filii Alani patris mei. Preterea ego ipse pro anima
regis David et pro anima regis Malcolmi et pro anima patris Walteri et
matris mee Eschene, et pro salute mei ipsius et heredum meorum, dono,
concedo et hac mea carta confirmo eidem domui de Passelet, et monachis
ibidem Deo servientibus, ecclesiam de Kengaif in insula de Bote, cum
omnibus capellis et tota parochia eiusdem insule, et cum tota terra
quam Sanctus Blanissicum dicitur, [Sanctus Blanus per sicum, ut
dicitur,?] olim cinxit a mari usque ad mare, per metas certas et
apparentes, ita libere et quiete sicut aliqua ecclesia in toto regno
Scotie tenetur liberius et quietius. Hiis testibus, Waltero de
Costentin, Nigello fratre ejusdem, Roberto filio Fulberti, Petro
fratre ejusdem, Galfrido de Costentin, Roberto Croc, Rolando de
Mernis, Rogero de Nes, Macolmo Lockart, et multis aliis.
[Folio viii ca. 1204]
Pages 74-76:
Carta domine Eschine uxoris Walteri senescalli Scotie, de terra de
Molla.
Eschina uxor Walteri filii Alani dapiferi Regis Scotie, omnibus sancte
matris ecclesie filiis tam presentibus quam futuris, salutem. Sciatis
me dedisse et concessisse, et hac mea carta confirmasse Deo et Sancte
Marie et Ecclesie Sancti Jacobi, Sancti Mirini et Sancte Milburge de
Passelet et Priori ejusdem loci, pro salute domini mei Willelmi regis,
et David fratris sui, et domini mei Walteri, et pro saluete mea et
heredum nortrorum, et pro anima Henrici regis Anglie, et pro anima
regis David et regis Malcolmi et comitis Henrici, et anima Margarete
filie mee que apud Passelet in capitulo jacet sepulta, et pro animabus
omnium parentum nortrorum et amicorum, in perpetuam et quietam
elemosinam, unam carucatam terre in Molla, per easdem divisas per quas
eis mensurata fuit et perambulata, et pasturam quingentis ovibus, et
aysiamentia alterius pedudis quantum pertinet ad unam carucatam terre
in eadem villa, cum omnibus aliis aysiamentis, libere, quiete ab
omnibus consuetudinibus et exactionibus et ab omni servitio temporali
sicut aliqua abacia in tota terra regis Scotie liberius, quietius et
honorificencius tenet aliquam possessionem imperpetuam elemosinam sibi
datam. Et ut rata et firma imperpetuum maneat ista donatio, hac carta
mea confirmo, et appositione sigilli domini mei Walteri, ista predicta
confirmata monachis prenominatis concedo in eternam. Hiis testibus,
Waltero filio Alani domino meo, Alano filio eius, Osberto capellano de
Oxeham, Luca capellano, Helya capellano, Waltero clerico de Molla,
Ricardo clerico, Jacobo clerico, Johanne filio Horum, qui cum Edulfo
preposito eiusdem ville, et Gilberto, et aliis probis hominibus,
eandem terram precepto meo monachis prefatis mensuratam perambulavit,
Waltero de Costentin, et Nigello fratre eius, Roberto de Mungumbry,
Rothlando de Merneff, Willelmo de Lannarch, Waltero camerario,
Willelmo filio Roberti, Alano de Leia, Ricardo fratre eius, Radulpho
preposito, Roberto nepote domini mei Walteri, Roberto Croc, Roberto
filio Fulberti, Symone Flamench, Ricardo nepote prioris.
In carta hac continentur mete terre de Molla.
Eschina domina de Molla omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis tam
presentibus quam futuris salutem. Sciatis me dedisse et concessisse et
hac mea carta confirmasse Deo et Sancte Marie et ecclesie Sancti
Jacobi, Sancti Mirini et sancti Milburge de Passelet et Priori et
monachis ibidem Deo servientibus, pro salute domini mei Willelmi regis
et David fratris sui, et domini mei Walteri, et pro salute mea et
heredum nostrorum , et pro anima regis David et regis Malcolmi et
comitis Henrici, et anima Margarete filie mee, et pro animabus omnium
parentum nostrorum et amicorum, imperpetuam et quietam elemosinam,
unam carucatam terre in occidentali parte de Blachedane in teritorio
meo de Molla, per easdem divisas per quas eis perambulavit fuit,
scilicet sicut Stelnaburna cadit in Blakburne, et per Blakburne fursum
usque ad duos lapides jacentes prope ripam de Blakburne ex opposito
domus Ulfi senescaldi in occidentali parte, et ita fursum usque af
fossum unam, et usque ad duos lapides stantes in eadem fossa, et ab
illis lapidibus usque ad aliam fossam cumulatam lapidibus, et ab illa
fossa usque ad aliam fossam iterum cumulatam lapidibus, et ab illa
fossa usque ad Heselensahe, et per semitam quandam subtus Heselensahe
que tendit usque ad vadum torrentis de Alernbarhe, et a vado illo
ultra usque ad vadum de Stelenburne, et sicut Stelenburne descendit in
Blakburne; illam vero terram infra predictas divisas tenebunt pro una
carucata terre; et in villa de Molla in orientali parte, quantuor
acras et tres perticatas terre et communem pasturam cum omnibus aliis
aysiamentis ejusdem ville ad unam carucatam terre pertinentibus;
insuper pasturam quingentis ovibus. Hanc vero predictam elemosinam
tenebunt de me et heredibus emis libere et quiete ab omnibus
consuetudinibus et exactionibus et ab omni servitio seculari. Hiis
testibus, Willelmo de Vas, Willemo de Munfiehet, et Ricardo de
Nichole, et Ricardo filio ejus, Rudulfo capellano, Roberto capellano
Gan' vicario de Molla et Humfrido filio ejus, Nicholao filio Adam,
Ulfo senescallo, Willelmo Nobili, Radulfo Falahe, Gilberto Scoth,
Willelmo clerico, Iuone, et multis aliis.
Confirmatio Willemi regis Scotorum, de Molla.
Vilelmus Dei gratia rex Scotorum, episcopis, abbatibus, comitibus,
baronibus, justiciariis, vicecomitibus, ministris et omnibus probis
hominibus totius terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciant
presentes et futuri me concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse Deo et
Sancte Marie Virgini et ecclesie Beati Apostoli Jacobi, Sancti Mirini
et Sancte Milburge de Passelet, et Priori et monachis ibidem Deo
servientibus, in liberam et perpetuam elemosinam, unam carucatam terre
in Molla per easdem divisas per quas eis mensurata fuit et
perambulata, et pasturam quingentis ovibus, et aisiamenta pasture
ceteris animalibus quantum pertinet ad unam carucatam terre, in eadem
villa, cum omnibus aliis aisiamentis, ita plenarie et honorifice et
ita libere et quiete ab omnibus consuetudinibus et exactionibus et
omni servitio seculari sicut carte Walteri filii Alani dapiferi mei et
Eschine uxoris sue eis testantur et confirmant. Testibus, Robert de
Quinci justiciario, Waltero de Berkel' camerario, Willelmo de Veteri
ponte, Gilleberto filio Richerii, Philippo de Valon', Johanne de
Londoniis, Roberto de Berkelei, Simone Loccard, apud Lanarcum.
Liber S. Marie de Calchou, Registrum Cartarum Abbacie Tironensis de
Kelso, 1113-1567, Vol. I, edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne Club,
Edinburgh, 1846:
Pages 135-136:
166. Super loquelam ita abbatem de Kalchou et Henricus de Molle et
uxore eius quandam pastura.
Notum sit omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis et fidelibus visuris
vel audituris has litteras qua loquela que inter abbatem et monachos
de Kalchou et Henricus de Molle et uxore eius Eschina aliquam mota est
de pastura quam ipsi abbas et monachi petebant in teritorio terre
eorum de Molle iure ecceslie et monime persone sub amicabili
composicione ita querint que predictas Henricus et prenominata uxor
eius Eschina concesserunt et hoc scripto confirmaverunt predictis
abbati et monachis ut habeant inperpetuum in teritorio terre eorum de
Molle pasturam septingentis omnibus et sexcies xx animalibus quam ipsi
petebant iure ecclesie et nomine per cum omnibus aisiamentis que
persona debet herede. Et pretera vicarius ipsorum monachorum et
homines eorum in terra ecclesie manentes habebunt communem pasturam et
communia aisiamenta in omnibus cum hominibus terre ipsuis Henrici de
Molle. Hiis Testibus Roberto archdiacono de Glasgow, Johanne decano de
Rokesburgh, Hugo Capello, Helia persona de Veteri Rokesburgh, Edwardo
de Lyntun, Gamello vicaro de Molle, Roberto capello de Merbotyl,
Herberto vicecomiti et capitalo de Theuydale.
Pages 145-146:
178. Carta Henricus de Molle [sr] Ecclesiam de Molle.
Universis sancte matris filiis et fidelibus Henricus de Molle salutem.
Noverint omnes tam posturi que presentes me concessisse et hac carta
mea confirmasse ecclesie Sancte Marie de Kalchou et monachis ibidem
Deo servientibus ecclesiam de Molle cum toftis et croftis ad ipsam
ecclesiam pertinentibus tam ab occidentali preter de Meredene qua
Halech juxta Cliftun et cum omnibus aliis ad ipsam iuste pertinentibus
in liberam et perpetuam elemosinam concessi et eis ut ipsi et
capellanus et homines eorum in villa de Molle manentes habeant
communia aisiamenta in pastura in bosco in focali et in omnibus aliis
aisiamentis in ipsa villa de Molle cum hominibus meis de Molle
Preterea concessi eis duas bovatas terre cum tofto et crofto et
pasturam sufficientem quadringantis omnibus xvi animalibus doubus
averis et xii suibus in teritorio de Molle in liberam et perpetuam
elemosinam et sicut testatur carta Eschine sponse mee que hanc
elemosinam eis dedit H[enricus] autem omnia concessi eir pro salute
domini mei Regis Willelmus et pro salute anima mee et sponse mee et
omnium antecsesorum et successorum nostrorum ut ea ita libere et
quiete habeant et in perpetuam elemosinam possideant sicut liberius et
quiecius habent et possident aliqua, aliam elemosinam testante et H.
ipsum concedente E. sponsa mea. Hiis testibus Hugo Capello Regis,
Osberto capello, Roberto et Willelmo clericis, Symon capello et
Willelmo filio eius, Nicholao et Edulfo de Molle, Malcholomo de Keth,
Roberto Marchaldo.
Liber S. Marie de Calchou, Registrum Cartarum Abbacie Tironensis de
Kelso, 1113-1567, Vol. I, edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne Club,
Edinburgh, 1846:
Pge 120:
151. Carta sera quamdem donacionem Cecilie de Molle.
Omnibus Christi fidelibus presens scriptum visuris vel audituris
Symone Mauleverer salutem in domino. Noverit universitas vestra me
concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse Deo et ecclesie Sancte Marie
de Kelchou et monachis ibidem Deo servientibus et inperpetuum
servituris in liberam puram et perpetuam elemosinam totam donacionem
quam Cecilia de Molle filia Eschine de Molle sponsa mea eisdem
monachis in teritorio de Molle caritative contulit in liberam puram et
perpetuam elemosinam. In terris in pasturis in pascuis in boscis in
planis et in omnibus aliis aisiamentis sicut in carta dicte Cecilie
sponse mee predictis monachis inde confecta plenius et liquidius
continetur. Quare volo ut dicti monachi dictam donacionem cum omnibus
ad eam pertinentibus adei libere quiete plenarie et honorifice
inperpetuum teneant et possideant sicut aliqua elemosina in regno
Scocie liberius quiecius plenius et honorificencius tenetur et
possidetur. In cuius rei testimonium presenti scripto sigillum meum
apposui. Hiis testibus Willelmo capello de Molle, Ricardo de Nichole,
Ada filio Nichole Henrico de Blackedene, Henrico filio Roberti,
Johanne nepote Cancellario, Ricardo de Boulden, Alano de Hertisheved
servientibus Abbatis de Kelchou et aliis.
To be Continued-----
Jared & Christina Olar
Jared L. Olar
----- Original Message -----
From: <Micha...@frontiernet.net>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Edgar the Atheling's daughter, Margaret, wife of Ralph Lovel
and Thomas de London
Micha...@frontiernet.net
In the Five Odards the origins of this family were examined. I wrote:
Odard son of Liulph was also known as Odard Vicecomes [the sheriff] or
Odard de Bamburgh (Bateson, 1895, p.11). He was the grandson of one
Eadwulf [see footnotes 2 and 3 above]. His father Liulph was also
known as Liolfe de Molle. Liulph held land in both Molle and Swinton
which were then part of Northumbria (Lawrie, 1905, pp.17-18) . He
married a sister of Adam fitz Uctred (Wilson, 1915, pp.550-551) and
had several children: Adam [ancestor of the Bonkyl family] (Wilson, p.
492) , William, Uctred and Odard. Uctred was given possession of the
lands his father held in Molle (Innes, 1846, pp.144-145, 320) . These
lands descended to Henry de Molle and his wife Eschyna de Londoniis
(Innes, pp.135-136, 145-146) .
The following support this descent:
Early Scottish Charters (Lawrie, 1905):
Pages 17-18:
XX. Charter by King Edgar granting Swinton to the Monks of St.
Cuthbert, c. AD 1100.
The Original is in the treasury at Durham.
Eadgardus Rex Scottorum, omnibus per regnum suum Scottis et Anglis,
salutem. Sciatis me ad dedicationem venisse ecclesiae Sanctae Mariae
apud Coldingaham quaequidem dedicatio ad Dei laudem et ad meum
placitum grata omnibus et accepta honorabiliter est adimpleta. Et ego
eadem ecclesiae super altare obtuli in dotem et donavi villam totam
Swintun cum divisis sicut Liulf habuit, liberam et quietam in
perpetuum habendam ab omni calumnia et ad voluntatem monachorum Sancti
Cuthberti disponendam, pro animabus patris et matris meae et pro
salute animae meae et fratrum et sororum mearum. Donavi etiam monachis
XXIIII animalia ad restaurandam illam eandem terram: et constitui
eandem pacem in Coldingaham eundo et redeundo et ibidem manendo quae
servatur in Eilande et in Northam. Insuper etiam statui hominibus in
Coldingascire sicut ipsi elegerunt et in manu mea firmaverunt, ut
unoquoque anno de unaquaque carruca, dimidiam marcam argenti monachis
persolvant; Testibus Aelfwino, Oter et Thor longo, et Aelfrico
pincerna, et Algaro presbitero, et Osberno presbitero, et Cnut Carl s
et Ogga et Lesing et Swein Ulfkill s et Ligulf de Bebbanburch et
Uhtred Eilaues sune et Uniaet thwite et Tigerne.
Page 80:
Charter by King David granting Swinton to his knight Arnolf, c. AD
1135.
The original is in the Treasury at Durham.
David Rex Scottorum comitibus baronibus vicecomitibus ministris et
omnibus fidelibus suis clericis et laicis totius terrae suae, salutem.
Sciatis me concessisse et dedisse Arnulfo isti meo militi totam terram
de Swinton cum pecunia et hominibus et omnibus rebus iuste ad eandem
terram pertinentibus: in feudo et in hereditate sibi et heredibus ita
libere et quiete et honorifice tenere et habere sicut Udardus
vicecomes eam tenuit liberius et quietius per illud servitium inde
faciendo monachis Dunhelmie quod ipse Udard eis inde faciebat,
praesentibus testibus Willelmo nepote Regis et Madd. comite et
Dunecano comite et Hugone de Morvilla et Waltero filio Alan. Apud
Travercoir.
Pages 79-80:
Charter by King David granting Swinton to his knight Hernulf, c. AD
1135.
The original is in the Treasury at Durham.
David Rex Scottorum et Henricus suus filius omnibus vicecomitibus suis
cunctisque baronibus Francis et Anglis, salutem. Sciatis quod dedi et
concessi huic meo militi Hernulfo, Swintun in feudam sibi et heredi
suo cum omnibus hominibus suisque pecuniis. Tenere bene et libere et
honorifice sicut ullus ex meis baronibus melius ac liberius tenet et
quicquid ad eam pertinens et easdem consuetudines per quas Liulfus
filius Edulfi et Udardus filius suus tenuerunt, tenere de Sancto
Cuthberto et de me, xl solidos reddente monachis de Dunelmia sine
omnibus aliis servitiis. Testibus Willelmo filio Dunecan et Maduc
consule et Comite Dunecan et Radulfo Nuvel et Marsel Marmiun et
Waltero filio Alani et Herberto Chamberlein et Adamo filio Edwardi et
Willelmo de Lindesi. Ad Hadintunea. Valete.
Notes on pp.341-343:
David, King of Scots, and Henry his son, addressing all the sheriffs
and all the barons, French and English, announces that he has given to
his fellow Hernulf his soldier, Swinton in feu to him and his heirs,
with all the men and their property, to hold as freely and honourably
as any of the king's barons hold, and by the same rights as Liulfus
the son of Edulf and Udard his son held, of St. Cuthbert and of the
King, paying forty shillings to the monks of Durham without other
service.
David, King of Scots, addressing all his earls, barons, sheriffs,
officers, and all his lieges, cleric and lay, announces that he has
granted to that fellow Arnulf, his soldier, the whole land of Swinton
with the cattle and the men, etc. in feu and heritage to himself and
his heirs as freely and honourably as Udard the Sheriff held it, by
the same service to the monks of Durham as Udard performed.
Register of the Priory of St. Bees (Wilson, 1915):
Pages 550-551:
XXXIII. Confirmation by Adam son of Uchtred to Beatrice his niece of 5
oxgangs of land in Gilcrux given to her by his nephew William son of
Liolf de Molle. [From the original at Hesleyside].
Adam filius Uhtredi omnibus amicis suis et hominibus tam futuris quam
presentibus, salutem. Sciatis me concessisse et hac mea carta
confirmasse Beatrici nepti mee quinque bovatas terre ex dono Willelmi
nepotis mei in Killecruce, sibi et filiis et filiabus suis, ita libere
et quiete, sicut carta Willelmi nepotis mei filii Liolf de Molle
testatur. Hiis testibus Cospatricio filio Orm et Thoma filio eius,
Adam clerico filio Cospatrici, Patricio filio Gameli, Gileberto filio
Gileberti, Adam de Toresbi, Orm filio Ailfi, Adam de Bastunthuait,
Cospatricio de Plumland, Alano filio Ketel, Uhtredo filio Ketel,
Thomas filio Ysaac, Benedicto sacerdote de Aspatric, Uhtredo sacerdote
de Crossebi, Rogero sacerdote de Irebi. Valete.
St. Bees Cartulary, Wilson 1915 pg. 492:
Waldevus filius comitis Cospatricii feoffavit Oderdum de Logis de
baronia de Wygton, Dondraft, Wavertone, Blencogo et Kyrkbryde, qui
fundavit ecclesiam de Wygton: et dedit Oderdo filio Liolfe Talintyre
et Castebryge cum foresta inter Caltre et Greta, et Priori et
Conventui de Gisburne, Appleton et Brycekyrke, cum advocatione ejusdem
ecclesie: et dedit Ade filio Liolfe Uldel' [et] Gilcruce;
Uchtred de Molle may not have had descendants. Nothing is mentioned in
the Kelso cartulary:
Liber S. Marie de Calchou, Registrum Cartarum Abbacie Tironensis de
Kelso, 1113-1567, Vol. I, edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne Club,
Edinburgh, 1846:
Page 144-145:
176. Carta [sr] Ecclesiam de Molle cum terra adiacenti [Helayeshough]
Notum sit omnibus presentibus et futuris que ego Uctredus filius
Liulfi ecclesiam de Molle pro salute anima mee et entecessorum meorum
et dominum David Regis et Henricus comitis Ecclesie Sancte Marie de
Kelcho in perpetuam dedi elemosinam cum terra adiacenti sicut ego
Uctredus et Aldredus decanus peramubulavumus eam scilicibus ab Hulaves
hou usque ad rivum eius et rivo per Hulaves hou usque ad vadum Bolent
contra ecclesiam et a vado illo furfum versus usque ad Haulaves hou et
inde perviam usque ad Hunedune et in usque ad capud rivi Hulaves hou
concedo et communem pasturam Molle ville mee cum aisamentis ita libere
et quiete tenendam de me et heredibus meis sicut aliqua ecclesia
aliqua elemosinam liberius et quiecius possidet. Hiis testibus Hugo de
Morvile, Ricardo filio eius, David Olifard, Willelmo de Sumervile,
Willelmo de Morvile, Horm filio Eilaf, Edmundo de Machefwel, Aldredo
dceano, Gamel de Foghou et aliis.
Page 320:
416. Confirmacio sera Ecclesiam de Molle.
H. Dei gracia Glasgow Episcopus omnibus sancte matris ecclesie filiis
salutem. Sciatis me concessisse et [epali aucctte] confirmasse
doncionem ecclesie de Molle quam Uctredus filius Liolf pro salute
anime sue in perpetuam elemosianm dedit et concessit ecclesie de
Kelchou fratribus que ibidem Deo servientibus cum terris et parochiis
et omnibus rectitudinibus et cosuetudinibus episcalibus. Hiis testibus
Aldredo decano, Salomone clerico, Helia clerico et Nicholao clerico.
Molle was granted to Walter Fitz Alan and it may have been his widow's
portion:
Regesta Regum Scottorum Vol. 1, The Acts of Malcolm IV King of Scots
1153-1165, collected and edited by G.W.S. Barrow, M.A. b. Litt,
University Press, Edinburgh, 1960:
Page 224:
183. Grants to his Steward, Walter son of Alan, Birkenside and
Legerwood, as King David I held them in demesne; and Mow; to be held
as freely and fully as any earl or baron holds any land of the king in
the kingdom of Scotland, for the service of one knight. Roxburgh.
(1161 X 1162, probably 24 June, 1161).
M. Rex Scott' episcopis abbatibus comitibus baronibus justic'
vicecomitabus prepositis et ministris Francis et Anglicis Scottis et
Galethiensibus clericis et laicis et omnibus hominibus tocius terre
sue salutem. Sciatis quod postquam arma suscepi dedi concessi et hac
carta mea confirmavi Waltero filio Alani meo senescallo Birchinside et
Leggardeswde scilicet ita plenarie et integre sicut Rex David avus
meus predictas terras in Dominico tenuit. Dedi etaim predicto Waltero
Moll eper rectas divisas suas et cum omnibus justis suis pertinentiis
tenendam et habendam sibi et heredibus suis de me et heredibus meis in
feudo et hereditate ita libere et quiete plenarie et honorifice sicut
aliquis Comes vel Baro in Regno Scotie terram aliquam de me liberius
quietius plenius et honorificencentius tenet et possidet faciendo de
predictis terris mihi et heredibus mei servitium unius militis. Hiis
testibus Ernaldo episcopo Sancti Andree Herberto, Episcopo de Glasgu,
Johanne Abbate de Kelchou, Willelmo Abbate de Melros, Osberto Abbate
de Jedd', waltero Cancellario, Willelmo fratre Regis, Ricardo de
Moreuill', Gilberto de Umframuill', Waldevo filio Comitis Cospatrici,
Jordano Ridel. Apud Rokesb'.
Endoresed Carta M. reg' de Birkinsid leghardeswod et Mol'. dat'
Waltero fil' Alani (xiii cent.)
The rest that is has been put forth is simply conjecture.
Regards,
MichaelAnne Guido
I was alerted to this posting as they knew I had spent some time on
this descent.
CE Wood
simple folk like me, I find it extremely difficult to follow and
distinguish these descents. I realize you have been most generous to
post your research, but it is very confusing.
There seem to be several Thomases - de Lundin, de Londiniis, and maybe
more. There are several Eschynas/Eschinas - de Molle, de Londiniis,
and more. Dating these various people with the same names would help.
I do strive to have accurate data in my genealogy, but I am now more
confused than ever.
Can anyone unravel these people and make this intelligble to those
unable to understand the obfuscation?
CE Wood
> ...
>
> read more »
mariel....@gmail.com
Her mother may have also had the name Eschyna de Molle, which she may have acquired from her grandfather Utrecht de Molle. The question is, who was Utrect's wife--was it Margaret, the daughter of Edgar Aetheling? So if this is the case, then Margaret the daughter of Edgar Aetheling would have the following names: Margaret Aetheling Lovell (first marriage) and Magaret Aetheling Lovel de Molle (second marriage to Utrecht de Molle).
The records given here on this blog state that Margaret's second husband was not Utrecht de Molle but Thomas de Lundin. If so, how did they get a daughter called Eschyna de Molle?
Is de Molle indeed Eschyna's grandfather and the person who made her a great heiress in Roxburgshire?
I would like clarification too.
I sought long and hard to find my Scots ancestor related to the Stuarts, and Eschyna is she.
She is my foremother by her marriage to Sir Robert Croce. Her marriage to Walter Fitzallen, the first High Steward, produced the son who became the second High Steward, Alan Fitzwalter, the half-brother of my ancestor Isabel Croce Pollock.
These things I know to be true, but I do not know the further story of Eschyna's possible descent from Edgar Aetheling, Utrecht de Molle, and so forth. Anyone?
mariel....@gmail.com
John Watson
Since this old subject has re-surfaced after 5 years, I thought that it might be interesting to have a look at the source(s) quoted in Douglas' original post to see what they say.
The original document which purports to show that Edgar Ætheling had a daughter called Margaret who was the mother of Henry Lovel is a chronicle which was compiled from sources possessed by the canons of Huntingdon, as their contribution to king Edward I's investigations in 1291, so it is not exactly contemporary.
The document was printed by Palgrave in 1837:
"Iste Edwardus [Ætheling] genuit Margareta Regina Scottorum et Edgaru. Edgar ....... it Margareta. De qua natus e Henricus dictus Lupellus."
F. Palgrave, ed., Documents and records illustrating the history of Scotland, and the transactions between the crowns of Scotland and England, preserved in the treasury of Her Majesty's Exchequer, Vol. I (London, 1837), 100
The same document was translated by Anderson in 1922:
"This Edward begot Margaret, the queen of the Scots; and Edgar. Edgar ----- [begot] Margaret, who was the mother of Henry, called Lupellus."
Alan Orr Anderson, ed., Early Sources of Scottish History, A.D. 500 to 1286, Vol. 2 (Edinburgh, 1922), 28
As you can see, there is a gap in the record, which could perhaps have contained another generation, or something else entirely. The Huntingdon chronicle can't be considered as a totally reliable contemporary source.
It is quite possible that Edgar Ætheling, who was born about 1052, married and had children. He had an interesting career as a soldier and crusader, but last appears in contemporary records in 1106 when he fought on the losing side at the battle of Tinchebrai, for Robert Curthose against Henry I. William of Malmesbury wrote in 1125, 'he now grows old in the country in privacy and quiet' (De gestis regum, 2.310). If he did have a daughter Margaret she may have been a child of his old age.
Regards,
John
Richard Smith
> "Iste Edwardus [�theling] genuit Margareta Regina Scottorum et Edgaru. Edgar ....... it Margareta. De qua natus e Henricus dictus Lupellus."
[...]
> As you can see, there is a gap in the record, which could perhaps have contained another generation, or something else entirely.
at the original document (or a photographic reproduction of it). The
"it" before "Margareta" is almost certainly a verb ending (perhaps of
"genuit") rather than a complete word. Is the missing section long
enough to contain more than just the rest of the verb?
Richard