de la Bere
Millerf...@aol.com
Genealogist by G. Andrewes Moriarty, FSA, who gives the following account of the
family of de la Bere:-
Roger Berkeley de Dursley (IV) d.c.1191
Daughter Isabel=(1) Thomas de Rocheford and (2) <Michaelmas 1206 William de
Walerond
{I have yet to trace references to Isabel's marriages]
By marriage (1) Isabel had a daughter Alice = (1) Andrew de la Bere and (2)
Alan de Plugenet
She was dead by 29th November 1233, when her son and heir Richard de la Bere
was made a ward of the Bishop of Winchester: CCR 1231-4, 346,557
By marriage (1) Alice had a son and heir Richard de la Bere [as just
mentioned]
Richard's son Robert de la Bere held a knight's fee at Burleton of the Earl
of Hereford, and the vill of Stratford in 1316 (Feud. Aids II, 376,387)
Robert "probably" had a younger brother Richard, who married Cecily
"evidently" the d. of James Bourne (IPM 1328 of John, son of Cecily, sometime wife of
Richard de la Bere).
Robert had a son Richard, who "fraudulently" claimed to be descended from a
younger son of Andrew de la Bere, whose eldest son was allegedly Alan de
Plugenet, ancestor of Joan, last of the Plugenets.
[The claim that Alan de Plugenet was the eldest son of Andrew de la Bere is
evidently nonsense. But nevertheless I am inclined to think that the claim was
not fraudulent. If, as stated, Alice de Rocheford was the mother both of
Richard de le Bere and of Alan Plugenet, then on the death sp (and without
closer heirs) of Joan Plugenet, descendant of Alice de Rocheford and Alan, the
de la Bere heirs of Alan Plugenet's mother Alice de Rocheford would have
been entitled to succeed, as in fact they did]
1346 Richard de la Bere held a knight's fee in Burleton, which Robert de la
Bere once held (Feud Aids II, 391,393)
This Richard married Sibel, daughter of William de Chabbenor of Chadnor Hfs
CPIII,149, This Richard was MP for Hds in 1353,1354, 1357-8, 1360 and 1369.
They had issue John, who apparently died vp.
[At this point I suggest that John married a Kinnersley heiress. If this
was not so, then two matters would remain unexplained|:-
1. Why would John's son be named "Kinnard",and
2. Why would the later de la Beres have owned Kinnersley/Kynardesley
castle?]
John had issue Kinnard, and two daughters:-
Violette=1363 Sir John Chandos of Snodhill and Fownhope, dsp 16th December
1428 and
Sibel=c.1370-72 Thomas de Crophull of Newbold Verdon, Leics, who d. <19th
May 1382.
{This Thomas Crophull, son of Sir John Crophull and his wife Margaret,
coheiress of Theobald, 2nd and last Lord Verdon, was the father of Agnes, wife of
Sir Walter Devereux of Bodenham, slain at the battle of Pilleth, and
ancestress of the later Devereux Earls of Essex, as well as the Mortons of Morton
Corbet, the Leightons of Plash, Salop,and numerous other descendants of the
Corbets).
Kinnard, son of John, succeeded his grandfather Sir Richard, and was MP for
Hds in 1384,1386, 1389, 1390 and 1399, dying before 1412.
His son and heir was Sir Richard, who succeeded before 1412, and died about
1433.
Richard's son Kinnard, MP for Hds 1435= Jane, sister of Sir John de la Barre
of Rotherwas (who d. < Feb. 1473-4)
Kinnard's son Richard, knight 1477-8, Sheriff Hds 1510 and 1512-3, when he
died. Of Kinnersley, Clayhonger and Myndre.
His Will proved 5th Aug 1514. Wife Elizabeth, sons Sevacre and George,
daughters Anne and Sibel.
His son and heir was Thomas (IPM 6 HVIII, 45 and 142)
Well that's all I can manage for now
MM
al...@mindspring.com
> Gordon Kirkemo has very kindly sent me a copy of an article in the
> Genealogist by G. Andrewes Moriarty, FSA, who gives the following account of the
> family of de la Bere:-
>
>
Bere family is very confusing (to me, at least). David Nash Ford has
some useful information on his web site. It may proves useful to
you. Kinnard (Kynard) was a name that was used in this family at
least five times that I know of. There appear to have been at least
two main branches of the family. Hope this helps.
Doug Smith
Millerf...@aol.com
Doug Smith kindly referred me to the website of David Nash Ford as providing
some useful information on the de la Beres. But if I have found the right
website at
mayfamilyhistory.co.uk/abear/
I regret to say that I have found it inaccurate and unhelpful, devoid of
reference to original sources, and often plain wrong.
This is the more depressing because I have found on a google search that
there are numerous references to David Nash Ford and his work on the
Abear/Delabere families. Unless this work is challenged, widespread confusion is likely
to arise.
For today I intend to confine my detailed criticisms to his account of
Weobley castle, the site of which he asserts to have "almost certainly held by the
de la Bere family" by the thirteenth century. Mentioning unspecified
documents as identifying a David de la Bere as steward to the De Braose Lord of
Gower in 1292 and 1304, and his son Adam de la Bere who "witnessed a deed signed
at Weobley" in 1318, he goes on to mention that this David "was still in
Wales at this time" [1318] "and was therefore the most likely builder of Weobley
castle". This astonishing non sequitur is perhaps partly explicable by the
unfortunate fact that DNF places Weobley in what he calls "the remote and
inaccessible Gower peninsula", whereas it is of course in the benign and pleasant
vale some 7 or 8 miles south-west of Leominster.
If I may briefly summarise the known facts which are inconsistent with DNF's
assertions, making use in my absence from London of C.J.Robinson's work
"Castles of Herefordshire :-
1. Weobley is not in the Gower peninsula, as I just stated, but in
Herefordshire
2. The castle there was certainly in existence in the reign of king John,
and possibly for a century earlier:- see Gesta Reg. Steph. 61, 69, cited by
Robinson
3. The castle was probably built and certainly owned by successive Lords de
Laci. It came into the hands of the de Verdon family by the marriage of
Walter de Laci's son Gilbert de Laci's daughter Margery to John le Botiller de
Verdon
4. On the death in 1316 without male heirs of John's grandson Theobald de
Verdon "dominus de Weobley" - see the letter to Pope Boniface VIII referred to
by Robinson- , who was the second and last Baron de Verdon, the castle was
allotted to one of his co-heiresses, his daughter Margaret, who married Sir
John Crophull as her third husband. Theobald's IPM is at C135/7/1, and a fine
of 31 Edw III, as cited by Robinson, records Sir John Crophull and his wife
Margery sc.Margaret, as lords of the manor of Weobley, held in chief
5.. Margaret's second husband William le Blount had combined with her to
settle the castle and manor of Weobley on trusts which (in the absence of issue
of their marriage) enured to the benefit of Margaret's heirs: Fines 7 Edw III,
35, cited by Robinson
6. C143/376/6 :John Crophill, knight, to grant the manor of Newbold-Verdon
(except knights' fees and the advowsons of churches) to Thomas Crophill his
son, Sibilla wife of the said Thomas, and the heirs male of their bodies, with
remainder to the said John and his heirs, retaining rent in Cotesbach and the
manor of Hemington. Leic.
7. Thomas Crophull , King's esquire, son of Sir John and Margery, dvp 1282,
having married Sibyl, daughter of Sir John de la Bere
[This is the first substantiated occurrence of a de la Bere in connection
with Weobley Castle, but only as the father in law of a potential heir of
Weobley, and therefore grandfather of the eventual heir}
8. Thomas and Sibyl's daughter and sole heiress , aged 12 in 1383, married
(1) Sir Walter Devereux, slain at the battle of Pilleth in 1402, and (2) John
Merbury. Sir Walter proved his wife's age in 1386, and therefore had then
livery of her lands.
9. CPR March 23 1417. [cited courtesy of Professor Boynton of the University
of Iowa]. Licence, for £20 paid in the hanaper by John Merbury,esquire, for
him and Agnes his wife to enfeoff Geoffrey Harley, esquire, Richard Hulle,
esquire, and John Monyton of the castle and manor of Webbeley co. Hereford and
the manors of Cotesbache and Neubolt Verdon, co.Leicester, held of the king
in chief, and for these to regrant the same to them and the heirs of their
bodies, with remainder to the right heirs of Agnes
8. Weobley thereafter decended, in the absence of heirs of Agnes by John
Merbury, in the Devereux family, later Earls of Essex, and through a younger
branch Viscounts Hereford.
As I see it, the account of an alleged De le Bere construction, ownership,
or inheritance of Weobley Castle is entirely bogus- much as I (as a descendant
of Sir John de la Bere's daughter Sibyl, married to Thomas Crophull) would
have liked to benefit from DNF's endeavours.
MM
david11...@yahoo.fr
> Doug Smith kindly referred me to the website of David Nash Ford as providing
> some useful information on the de la Beres. But if I have found the right
> website at
> mayfamilyhistory.co.uk/abear/
> For today I intend to confine my detailed criticisms to his account of
> Weobley castle, the site of which he asserts to have "almost certainly held by the
> de la Bere family" by the thirteenth century. Mentioning unspecified
> documents as identifying a David de la Bere as steward to the De Braose Lord of
> Gower in 1292 and 1304, and his son Adam de la Bere who "witnessed a deed signed
> at Weobley" in 1318, he goes on to mention that this David "was still in
> Wales at this time" [1318] "and was therefore the most likely builder of Weobley
> castle". This astonishing non sequitur is perhaps partly explicable by the
> unfortunate fact that DNF places Weobley in what he calls "the remote and
> inaccessible Gower peninsula", whereas it is of course in the benign and pleasant
> vale some 7 or 8 miles south-west of Leominster.
> 1. Weobley is not in the Gower peninsula, as I just stated, but in
> Herefordshire
> MM
It's strange that you don't appear to have googled "Weobley Castle"
for if you had you would have found the many websites, including
photographs, of the castle in the Gower peninsular. My modern map
shows it as a castle only, not as a place name that appears in the
index. It is a mile west of Llanrhidian.
Many websites describe the Gower Peninsular Weobley Castle as having
been built by the de la Bere family, albeit without citations.
I suppose the question must be is it you rather than David Nash Ford
who has confused the two Weobley Castles, or perhaps are you both
correct in associating the de la Bere family with both Weobley,
Herefordshire, and Weobley Castle, Gower Peninsular.
Agnes (St John) Rodney, daughter of Sir John St John, and
granddaughter of Elizabeth (de la Bere) and Sir Oliver St John, in her
will dated 5 Oct 1420 (TNA PCC ref PROB 112B) "Agnes of Wybley Castle
desired that she be buried at Lanredian near her ancestor". Neither
the Rodneys nor the St Johns were associated with Weobley Castle,
Gower peninsular, so my assumption, which may be totally wrong, is
that the ancestor that Agnes was referring to was Elizabeth de la
Bere.
Possibly an apology to DNF is in order (and perhaps a rethink of your
de la Bere ancestors now you know there is a Weobley Castle in the
Gower Peninsular)
David
Millerf...@aol.com
googled "Weobley Castle", which I have now done. Lo and behold, it appears
that there is a rather splendid Weobley Castle on the north shore of the Gower
peninsula, with de la Bere associations, as well as the far less impressive
Weobley Castle at Weobley, Herefordshire.
I shall send an apology to David Nash Ford, in case he does not read this
group, and I also apologise to the group in general for posting a (partially)
misguided criticism of his work.
Meanwhile my thanks to David for pointing out the inadequacy of my post, and
for encouraging me to rethink the de la Bere history
MM
Robert Allen
There is an article entitled "Sir William de Braose Lord of Gower (c. 1255-1326)" published in the Gower - The Joournal of the Gower Society, Vol. XLIII, by Robert David Edmunds. At the bottom of page 65 of the Journal (page 2 of the article) it says that during the 1290s Sir William de Braose began the process of selling and mortgaging his lands and property. It was around this time that he sold land at Weobley to David de la Bere.
There is a Sir John de la Bere we married Agnes Turberville circa 1340 I am assuming that this John de la Bere was the son of the above-mentioned David de la Bere based on the fact this this John de la Bere's descendants owned Weobley castle, Gower, Wales. This couple had 3 children, John de la Bere (heir), Elizabeth de la Bere who married John St. John (not Oliver St. John) and Margaret de la Bere who married Elias Basset (see evidence below).
There is a 1384 Quit Claim Deed from John de la Bere, son of Sir John de la Bere, to John de Penres involving a burgage in the castle bailey of Swansea. Cartae et Alia Munimenta Quae ad Dominium de Glamorgancia Pertinent, Vol. 1V, page 1355, et. seq. The father of this John de la Bere is believed to be Sir John de la Bere who married Agnes Turberville discussed in the previous paragraph.
There is a 1397/98 Inquisition Post Mortem of Sir John de La Bere "of the Castle of Weobley", who died in 1380". Cartae et Alia Munimenta Quae ad Dominium de Glamorgancia Pertinent, Vol. 1I, page 53. It says that his son and heir was John de la Bere, 15 years old at the feast of Saint Michael last past, unmarried. There is also a Confirmation by Bishop John to Margam Abbey in 1397 in which it says that John de la Bere was a knight who held the castle of Webbely from the lord and died through military service on the Sunday next after the feast of Saint Matthew the Apostle in the 13th year of the reign of the Richard II. Cartae et Alia Munimenta Quae ad Dominium de Glamorgancia Pertinent, Vol. 1V, page 1428, et seq.
There is a 1410 Inquisition Post Mortem of John de la Bere that says that he held the fortified manor called Webbley in the lordship of Gower, Wales. It says he died September 24, 1403 and says that his heir is Thomas, his son, age 9 years. British History Online, Henry IV Entries 600-751, item 743 and Cartae et Alia Munimenta Quae ad Dominium de Glamorgancia Pertinent, Vol. 1V, page 1459.
There is a 1415 Calendar of Fine Rolls entry (2 Henry V, page 101) concerning a pourparty of Coytyff (a Turberville property) that came into the "King's hands" by the death of Laurence Berkkerolles and by reason of the minority of Thomas de la Beer, son of John de la Bere and that by the death of Thomas de la Beer on October 28, 1414 there was a search for Thomas de la Bere's heir. To find this heir they went back to John de la Bere (son of John de la Bere who married Agnes Turberville) and went out to his two sisters and awarded Margaret (who married Elias Basset) and down to her son, John Basset, and Elizabeth (who married John St. John) and down to her son, John St. John. The finding was to award 1/2 to John Basset and 1/2 to John St. John.
There was also an Oliver St. John of Fonmon, Glamorgan, Wales who married a different Elizabeth de la Bere, daughter of a different Sir John de la Bere. This couple was at least one generation older than the Elizabeth de la Bere who married John St. John discussed above.. I descend from this Oliver St. John and Elizabeth de la Bere. I am still working on trying to prove the ancestry of this (older) Sir John de la Bere. As far as I have been able to determine this older Sir John de la Bere and this Oliver St. John who married the older Elizabeth de la Bere had nothing to do with Weobley Castle in Gower, Wales.