Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors
D. Spencer Hines
standing on Great-Grandfather King John's side of the field at Runnemede.
<g>
Arthur Edwin Bye tells us that although his name is written that way in
Magna Carta, his name was "undoubtedly Robert de Rokkeley. There seems to
be no such name as Roppelay." <g>
Bye continues by telling us Robert was from Rokeley in Kent and that like
five others who were King John's Counsellors at Runnemede, he joined the
Barons after Runnemede and was taken prisoner by King John's forces at
Rochester Castle in 1216.
The five other turncoats appear to be:
William Longuespee, Earl of Salisbury
William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
William d'Aubigny, Earl of Arundel
Hugh de Neville, The Chief Forester
Alan de Galloway, Constable of Scotland
All six men deserted King John for the Dauphin of France [later Louis VIII]
and the Baronial Party in June 1216, apparently in the mistaken belief that
Great-Grandfather John's cause was hopelessly lost.
It took the firm hand and wise, steady leadership of the Regent for the
child-King Henry III [nine years old in 1216 when his father King John
died] -- Great-Grandfather William Marshal -- to bring all six men back into
the fold and allegiance to the English Crown -- particularly when they saw
that because of Great-Grandfather William Marshal's wise strategy and
tactics in dealing with both the invading French and the rebellious
Barons -- the English Royalists were WINNING. <g>
William Marshal, of course, won a Great Victory over the French at Lincoln,
in May 1217.
Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent, also had a Great Naval Victory over the
French Fleet off Dover, on 24 August 1217 -- entitling him to be a
respected forerunner of Sir Francis Drake.
These combined Victories forced the Dauphin to accept the Treaty of
Lambeth, with the Regent, William Marshal on 11 September 1217. The Dauphin
renounced his claim to the English Crown and agreed to evacuate his forces
from England and to cease all hostilities.
Hubert de Burgh was also a party to this Treaty.
Source:
Arthur Edwin Bye, _Magna Carta, King John and The Barons_, The Baronial
Order of Magna Carta, 1966, with a Foreword by Samuel Booth Sturgis
--------------------------
Bully!
Deeeeeeeelightful!...
And God Save The King!...
...And his bacon as well.
<G>
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Exitus Acta Probat
Deus Vult
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for that post; perhaps some further research may yet find
more details (and possibly descendants) re: Robert de 'Roppelay'.
One quick note: in 1215/16, Prince Louis was heir to the kingdom
of France, but he was not styled Dauphin. The lands of the Dauphine
are found east of the Rhone river, and were part of the territory of
the Holy Roman Empire. Beatrix, comtesse d'Albon, was the stepmother
of the Duke of Burgundy, but she held her lands of the Emperor. The
Dauphine did not become subject to French rule until the 14th century.
Cheers,
John
D. Spencer Hines
Please be assured I was simply reporting what Arthur Bye says re the
Dauphin -- not taking my own position.
So your argument is with Bye.
Cheers,
DSH
"John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190240031.5...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
John Briggs
> Dear John,
>
> Please be assured I was simply reporting what Arthur Bye says re the
> Dauphin -- not taking my own position.
>
> So your argument is with Bye.
>
> Cheers,
or Good Bye?
But you were the one who recommended this ridiculous book - shouldn't you
have been a bit more careful over its historical accuracy?
--
John Briggs
D. Spencer Hines
John Briggs
> Do you Brits prefer _RUNNEMEDE_ -- _RUNNYMEDE_ -- or some other
> alternative?
Are you incapable of looking in the Wikipedia? Or have you been banned for
trolling?
--
John Briggs
Ian Wallace
is Robert de Rokseley (Ruxley, Kent; several variant spellings) rather
than Robert de Rokkeley. At least Ruxley is in Kent.
Pure speculation.
Ian.
On 19 Sep, 22:33, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
> This "Robert de Roppelay" is a particularly interesting character --
> standing on Great-Grandfather King John's side of the field at Runnemede.
...
> Arthur Edwin Bye tells us that although his name is written that way in
> Magna Carta, his name was "undoubtedly Robert de Rokkeley. There seems to
> be no such name as Roppelay." <g>
...
> Source:
> Arthur Edwin Bye, _Magna Carta, King John and The Barons_, The Baronial
> Order of Magna Carta, 1966, with a Foreword by Samuel Booth Sturgis
> --------------------------
...
> DSH
D. Spencer Hines
Is there a Rokkeley in Kent?
Cheers,
DSH
"Ian Wallace" <shr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190307580.4...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Ian Wallace
Ruxley, in Ruxley, Kent" to "Adam and Reginald Croc jointly". I do not
have a date for this, but perhaps this is consistent with actions tht
annoyed King John. (Ref "Church, S. D.(1995) "The Rewards of Royal
Service in the Household of King John: A Dissenting Opinion", English
Historical Review, 110:436 p.277 et seq.)
Ian.
Leticia Cluff
<pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>But certainly INTELLIGENT SPECULATION.
>
>Is there a Rokkeley in Kent?
The modern spelling is Rockley (you don't find many double-k's in
English nowadays). It's not a big place, as you can see:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Rockley+%2Bkent&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
HTH
TiSH
D. Spencer Hines
Thank you.
DSH
"Leticia Cluff" <letici...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lkk5f3pvm24n7vaud...@4ax.com...
Ian Wallace
wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:37:53 +0100, D. "Spencer" Hines
>
> The modern spelling is Rockley (you don't find many double-k's in
> English nowadays). It's not a big place, as you can see:
> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Rockley+%2Bkent&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=...
> HTH
>
> TiSH
That is not a place, it is an address.
I don't know what Rockley actually represents but it is situated on a
road called Parkway which I believe to be a modern development (late
20th century).
I'll check it out tomorrow as I am working very close to there (just
off Heath lane the other side of the A2).
Note that Parkway is off Tile Kiln Lane, a very old place mentioned in
1544 "Henry Cooke of London merchant tailor Grant in fee for £20 - 10d
of house called le Tyle Kill etc in tenure of Miles Dylcooke in
Bexley Kent and the land leased with it on the south side of the
highway from Bawde Wynnes to Bexley..." (Letters & pprs Foreign &
Domestic Henry VIII Vol XIX, part 2, p.83; 36 Henry VIII).
The next road to the west is Faesten Way, which is also a modern road
but takes its name from the Faestendic (Faesten Dyke), the ditch and
bank built in the summer of 457* to mark the boundary between the part
of Kent under control of Jutish (?) immigrants and the part still held
by the Britons.
* 457 is a best estimate but alternative interpretations of very
incomplete evidence place it a few years later.
Ruxley as a parish ceased to exist in 1557 when it was merged into
North Cray. By some chance the parish church still survives, after
hundreds of years of use as a barn, and stands now in the grounds of
Ruxley Manor Garden Centre. For several years a sign on it has
announces the obtaining of money for its restoration but not much
seems to have happened.
The ancient spellings of Ruxley are not forgotten, as evidenced by the
name of a house at the most easterly point of Rectory Lane, Sidcup.
I recall some references to the de Rokesly family in Hasted's History
of Kent, no doubt in vol.2.
Ruxley was a parish, and also a hundred within the lathe of Sutton at
Hoo.
Ian.
Douglas Richardson
His name was Robert de Roppesley, not "Roppelay." And, he has no
connection whatsoever with Ruxley, Kent.
See the following weblinks:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aCMLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA40&dq=%22Robert+de+Roppesley%22
http://books.google.com/books?id=FPoyAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22Robert+de+Roppesley%22
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Sep 19, 4:13 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
< Dear Spencer,
<
< Thanks for that post; perhaps some further research may yet
find
< more details (and possibly descendants) re: Robert de 'Roppelay'.
<
< Cheers, John
Ian Wallace
"I'll check it out tomorrow as I am working very close to there (just
off Heath lane the other side of the A2)."
I went to Rockley this afternoon.
As Letitia said, its not a big place. In fact Rockley is just the name
of a semi-detached house. Four or five bedrooms I would guess, built
within the last thirty years.
The houses on Parkway are not numbered but are identified by names.
Ian.
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"Ian Wallace" <shr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190413497.2...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
John Briggs
That's because Google Maps is searching postal addresses. Rockley is in
Wiltshire. Early spellings of Ruxley (Kent) are typically "Rokesley".
Ropley is in Hampshire, and Ropsley is in Lincolnshire
--
John Briggs
Ian Wallace
> Dear Spencer (and John) ~
>
> His name was Robert de Roppesley, not "Roppelay." And, he has no
> connection whatsoever with Ruxley, Kent.
Yes, this seems to make sense, maybe.
I had a look this evening at what Hasted had to say about the de
Ruxley family. Although he gives a fragmentary family history
including a rather doubtful Doomsday ancestor, he does not mention a
Robert de Ruxley at the appropriate time.
However this does not explain the reference I posted yesterday
regarding the de Ruxley landholdings.
Nor does it explain why "Arthur Edwin Bye tells us that although his
name is written that way in
Magna Carta, his name was 'undoubtedly Robert de Rokkeley'." and " Bye
continues by telling us Robert was from Rokeley in Kent.", however
maybe Bye was just mistaken.
On the other hand, if the correct reading of Magna Carta is Robert de
Roppesley (maybe Roberti de Roppeleia originally), in view of the
company he is among in Magna Carta it should be possible to identify a
man of this standing fairly conclusively.
E. A. Greening Lamborn in 1944 suggested ."Robert de Roppele. Roppele
is Ropsley in Lincolnshire, and the Testa de Nevill shows him holding
it at the inquest of 1212, with Frampton and Wykes, two knightsfees in
Oxon and lands in Hertfordshire. Lambert de Roppesley succeeded him
but his descendants have not been traced." Is this identification
generally accepted? Does what is known of Robert de Roppele suggest
he was a man close to the King and with substantial political
standing?
As someone who had no particular interest in this matter until last
night I would like to see this discussion continue, as unlike so many
other medieval issues is seems to be likely to reach a definite
conclusion, simply because Robert was clearly a man of considerable
importance.
Ian
Ref: Greening Lamborn, E.A. (1944) "Mr Churchill and the barons of
Magna Carta", Notes and Queries, 186, pp.64-69.
Ian Wallace
> That's because Google Maps is searching postal addresses.
> John Briggs
Exactly.
By chance today I came across some old notes of a 1553 marriage
settlement and noticed that it included Ruxley, spelled "Rokysley". It
is a place with multitude of alternative spellings.
Ian.
Ian Wallace
> This "Robert de Roppelay" is a particularly interesting character --
> Arthur Edwin Bye tells us that although his name is written that way in
As far as I can make out, what is actually written in one of the
British Library's copies of Magna Carta is "Roberti de Roppel".
Ian.
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"Ian Wallace" <shr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190456213.5...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Leticia Cluff
wrote:
Yes, and that is variously translated as Robert de Roppeley
http://www.bl.uk/treasures/magnacarta/translation.html
suggesting Ropley in Hampshire.
or as Robert of Ropsley
http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/magnacarta.html
suggesting Ropsley in Lincolnshire.
Why should this name "undoubtedly" be Rokkely at all? Isn't it the
wrong time and place for the difference between P and Q Celtic to be
operating?
What is the connection, if any, with Simon de Roppel? Google for that
name and you will find a man in Lincoln in 1236, in the reign of Henry
III:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22simon+de+roppel%22
Ropsley near Grantham was a grange belonging to the abbot of Vaudey in
Lincolnshire:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=38007&strquery=ropsley
Sorry if I led you on a wild goose chase, Ian. My pinpointing of
Rockley to that street in Kent was intended as a joke.
Tish
Praeterea censeo Hinem esse delendum
Apple
And how does one come across old notes from 1553? Lucky!
Ian Wallace
And how does one come across old notes from 1553? Lucky!
"old notes of a 1553 marriage settlement ...."
The crucial word is "of" - not from.
Old is relative. Rough notes made in June 2007, became 'old' after
being neatly transcribed!
Ian.
Ian Wallace
available on line, there is no doubt that the most common name given
to this man is Robert de Roppeley. Without exhaustively following all
the leads, it sounds as if an identification has been made with a real
person who had administrative responsibilities in the Lincoln area.
Robert of Ropsley seems a much less common version but still is most
likely connected to Lincolnshire.
I came across a couple of references to Simon de Roppel. he seemed to
have sherifflike functions - someone involved in a family dispute went
on a pilgrimage to Norfolk, in his absence someone was framed for his
'murder' and was in the custody of Simon de Roppel. As a working
hypothesis I would work on the basis that Simon was a descendant of
Robert, inheriting his responsibilities. Whatever the spelling, I
suspect that Robert de Roppell is the same as Robert de Roppeley.
I am sorry to say that it seems only Bye proposes a Kentish origin. He
does not, apparently, give reasons or quote sources, a pity. So there
does not seem to be much prospect of showing a connection to the de
Ruxley family.
Ian.
On 22 Sep, 15:43, Leticia Cluff <leticia.cl...@nospam.gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 03:16:53 -0700, Ian Wallace <shr...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 19 Sep, 22:33, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
> >> This "Robert de Roppelay" is a particularly interesting character --
> >...
> >> Arthur Edwin Bye tells us that although his name is written that way in
> >> Magna Carta, his name was "undoubtedly Robert de Rokkeley....
>
> >As far as I can make out, what is actually written in one of the
> >British Library's copies of Magna Carta is "Roberti de Roppel".
>
> Yes, and that is variously translated as Robert de Roppeleyhttp://www.bl.uk/treasures/magnacarta/translation.html
> suggesting Ropley in Hampshire.
>
> or as Robert of Ropsleyhttp://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/magnacarta.html
> suggesting Ropsley in Lincolnshire.
>
> Why should this name "undoubtedly" be Rokkely at all? Isn't it the
> wrong time and place for the difference between P and Q Celtic to be
> operating?
>
> What is the connection, if any, with Simon de Roppel? Google for that
> name and you will find a man in Lincoln in 1236, in the reign of Henry
> III:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22simon+de+roppel%22
>
> Ropsley near Grantham was a grange belonging to the abbot of Vaudey in
> Lincolnshire:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=38007&strquery=rop...
Apple
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D. Spencer Hines
schedule. It's very classical, I'll murmur better or Salahuddin will
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John Briggs
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John P. Ravilious
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D. Spencer Hines
water. Hardly any dizzy registrations worth the novel queue were
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John H
"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:1AoEu.136-F%1.7...@eagle.america.net...
norenxaq
>Is it full moon in UK...DSH seems to be way out at moment!
>
>"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
>news:1AoEu.136-F%1.7...@eagle.america.net...
>
>
it and similar posts were generated by a spammer, not Hines or any other
alleged addressee
treadgingerly
> This "Robert de Roppelay" is a particularly interesting character --
> <g>
> be no such name as Roppelay." <g>
> Bye continues by telling us Robert was from Rokeley in Kent and that like
> five others who were King John's Counsellors at Runnemede, he joined the
> Barons after Runnemede and was taken prisoner by King John's forces at
> Rochester Castle in 1216.
> The five other turncoats appear to be:
> William Longuespee, Earl of Salisbury
> William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
> William d'Aubigny, Earl of Arundel
> Hugh de Neville, The Chief Forester
> Alan de Galloway, Constable of Scotland
> All six men deserted King John for the Dauphin of France [later Louis VIII]
> and the Baronial Party in June 1216, apparently in the mistaken belief that
> Great-Grandfather John's cause was hopelessly lost.
> It took the firm hand and wise, steady leadership of the Regent for the
> child-King Henry III [nine years old in 1216 when his father King John
> died] -- Great-Grandfather William Marshal -- to bring all six men back into
> the fold and allegiance to the English Crown -- particularly when they saw
> that because of Great-Grandfather William Marshal's wise strategy and
> tactics in dealing with both the invading French and the rebellious
> Barons -- the English Royalists were WINNING. <g>
> William Marshal, of course, won a Great Victory over the French at Lincoln,
> in May 1217.
> Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent, also had a Great Naval Victory over the
> French Fleet off Dover, on 24 August 1217 -- entitling him to be a
> respected forerunner of Sir Francis Drake.
> These combined Victories forced the Dauphin to accept the Treaty of
> Lambeth, with the Regent, William Marshal on 11 September 1217. The Dauphin
> renounced his claim to the English Crown and agreed to evacuate his forces
> from England and to cease all hostilities.
> Hubert de Burgh was also a party to this Treaty.
> Source:
> Arthur Edwin Bye, _Magna Carta, King John and The Barons_, The Baronial
> Order of Magna Carta, 1966, with a Foreword by Samuel Booth Sturgis
> --------------------------
> Bully!
> Deeeeeeeelightful!...
> And God Save The King!...
> ...And his bacon as well.
> <G>
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Exitus Acta Probat
> Deus Vult
Couldn't be Robert of Ropley ? Ropley being in Hampshire between Alton and Alresford