Plantagenet Descents from Ancient Judea
Shawn Potter
archaeological discoveries that support the historicity of the Hebrew
Scriptures, I thought how interesting it would be to discover ancient
Judeans among Plantagenet forebears. I am aware of Zuckerman's
speculation about Makhir of Septimania, as well as Nat Taylor's
critical review of Zuckerman's theory; and I know that many people say
there is no evidence to support the fantastic Celtic and Scandinavian
royal lineages that extend back to the House of David. But, are there
any other credible Plantagenet ancestral lines that might connect to
ancient Judea?
Some have pointed out that religious prohibitions against interfaith
marriage may have prevented such connections. On the other hand, Don
Stone points out that new dynasties acquire legitimacy by marrying
descendants of old dynasties, forging links that may be forgotten in
time as attention turns from the old to the new. I wonder if this
factor might open the possibility of a Plantagenet connection to
ancient Judea?
For example, is it possible that such a connection exists among
pre-Christian Hungarian rulers? Some have posted notes to this
newsgroup about the idea that Zoltan (b. c. 896 and d. c. 947) married
a woman from Khazaria's aristocracy. If Khazaria's aristocracy, which
originated in Siberia, converted to Judaeism one hundred or more years
before Zoltan's marriage (scholars disagree about when Khazaria's
aristocracy converted to Judaeism) and sought during that time to
forge marriage alliances with prominent Middle Eastern Jewish
families, then Zoltan's wife easily might have descended from ancient
Judea--and even from the House of David.
Does anyone have any thoughts (and evidence) about Taksony's mother
(Taksony was a son of Zoltan and an ancestor of Edward I, King of
England), or about any other possible Plantagenet links to ancient
Judea?
Shawn Potter
Todd A. Farmerie
of better quality at its roots than that of Zuckerman. I would
say that it is as likely as not that some descent exists,
genealogy is not about probability, and any such descent would
appear to be lost in the mists of time - I doubt anything viable
will ever surface.
taf
William Addams Reitwiesner
>While reading "The Stones Cry Out," by Randall Price, which describes
>archaeological discoveries that support the historicity of the Hebrew
>Scriptures, I thought how interesting it would be to discover ancient
>Judeans among Plantagenet forebears. I am aware of Zuckerman's
>speculation about Makhir of Septimania, as well as Nat Taylor's
>critical review of Zuckerman's theory; and I know that many people say
>there is no evidence to support the fantastic Celtic and Scandinavian
>royal lineages that extend back to the House of David. But, are there
>any other credible Plantagenet ancestral lines that might connect to
>ancient Judea?
Dunno if this has any actual Judean connections, but an ancestor of Eleanor
of Aquitaine was Ebles Mancer, Count of Poitou (d. 934), who was an
illegitimate son of Ranulph II, Count of Poitou (d. 890).
What's the word for "bastard" in Hebrew? "Mamzer".
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
D. Spencer Hines
Great-Grandmother Aliénor d'Aquitaine's, Reine de France et
d'Angleterre's, lost Jewish Ancestor.
30th Great-Grandfather Ebles Mancer ---- found at last ---- buried under
all those goyim.
Thank you kindly, William of Rottweiler.
Mazel Tov!
Deus Vult.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"William Addams Reitwiesner" <reitw...@stop.mail-abuse.org>
wrote in message news:3c9562a2...@news.erols.com...
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
Nebuchadnezzar built the Hanging Gardens [to
please his wife or concubine, Amyitis, who had
been "brought up in Media and had a passion
for mountain surroundings". He did this because
his wife had lived in the mountains and she was
homesick on the flat plains of Babylon.]
http://home.achilles.net/~sal/iraq_history.html
In a similar fashion, one King Solomon pleased
his foreign wives by erecting places for their
gods. Avoiding speculation or probability,
evaluate what any given king has done for
any given wife or concubine and if there is
an attached Jewish benefit or tradition, the
idea of some connective link exists.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Solomon.html
The very fact that "William the Conqueror
brought Jewish moneylenders to England"
suggests more than a passing relationship
with this King, his supporters and their
connective families.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/sceptred_isle/page/8.shtml?question=8.
The status of Jews as land owners would
have changed in 1213, when King John
"gave England to the Pope as a fiefdom."
The Articles of the Barons would have
protected any Barons of Jewish descent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/sceptred_isle/page/23.shtml?question=23
Additionally, the 1275 Statute of the Jewry
would not have been issued if all Jews were
only dwelling in "the King's own cities and
boroughs". TEINI- (xi 92; 118), seems
to be applied in Domesday, not only
to the Saxon Nobility, but to Freeholders
of inferior estate, as noted in Vol. 12
of the Antiquities of Shropshire, England .
Coming down in time, it was with this group that
"The Jews began to trade land for money" . . .
" the penniless peers of 13th-century England."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/sceptred_isle/page/27.shtml?question=27
" the mists of time" appear to be anti-Semitic
alterations in the original records.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] - on
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
--------------------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
> The very fact that "William the Conqueror
> brought Jewish moneylenders to England"
> suggests more than a passing relationship
> with this King, his supporters and their
> connective families.
This shows a complete lack of understanding of the entire
socio-economic system. Jewish moneylenders existed in the
Christian world because it was un-Christian to lend money for
interest, and imprudent to do so without. That left the Jews.
The only thing their transport to England shows is that William
anticipated needing more money than he could squeeze out of the
locals.
taf
Shawn Potter
Hebrew reference to mixed ancestry (like a mule descends from a horse
and a donkey). Does information about the parents and ancestry of
Ebles Mancer somehow fit this description?
Shawn Potter
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
A Window into Jewish Medieval Life
http://www.tau.ac.il/taunews/97spring/medieval.html
This resource celebrates the discovery of
the Cairo Geniza, that includes records
and documents penned by members of
the Jewish community in Cairo over a
period of 250 years, between 1000
and 1250. [The Time Period of Interest].
SOCIO-ECONOMIC EXAMPLE:
In the "contents of some 70
fragmentary documents that span
the lifetime of a Tunisian-born Jew
named Abraham Ben Yiju", we find
" his marriage to an Indian slave girl,
Ashu" as well as "the birth of his three
children; and the early death of a son
in India." . . .
Interestingly, "He attempted to locate
his brothers and sisters with whom he
had lost contact when they fled Tunisia
in the wake of the Norman Conquest.
Responsa uncovered in the Geniza,
and penned in Ben Yiju's own hand,
reveals the cold reception the Jewish
merchant received at the hands of some
members of the Jewish community who
questioned the validity of his marriage."
PLEASE NOTE THIS IMPORTANT
COMMENT: " Ben Yiju's story is
probably just one of thousands" . . .
Todd, you show "a complete lack of
understanding of the entire socio-
economic system." The Jewish
moneylenders brought into England
by William the Conqueror would have
been in a position to receive rewards
of all kinds from him, including any
inclination on their part to accept
women of the conquered population.
Records are footprints. [The commonly
accepted ending of "yahu" indicates a
person whose origin was from Judah,
while names from Israel usually ended
in "yo."] About A.D. 1200, Marazion
was spelled Marghasbigan.
Market Jew, surviving as Market Jew
Street in the Town of Penzance, was
spelled circa 1200 A.D. as Marachadyou.
http://www.tau.ac.il/taunews/97spring/edom2.html
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] - on
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
----------------------------------------------------
Arthur Murata
important to try to link the "Plantagenets" with ancient
Judea and even less sure that the question is on topic, but
here goes. IF Garcia I Iniquez, King of Pamplona, d. c.
880, was married to Auria of the Banu Qasi, this brings
Islam as a religion into one of the founding royal families
of Spain; the Banu Qasi, in turn, married Arab Muslims
(since they were not Arabs themselves). Arabs and the
sacred history of the Muslim people place them in ancient
Judea and adjacent regions - they share the Old Testament
heritage with Christians and Jews, and are "racially"
Semitic (quotes around "racially" because it is not the
technically correct term - humans are not differentiated
sufficiently to break down into distinct races). This would
give the Plantagenets a connection to ancient Judea and
environs through their links to Spanish women. This line
leaves out entirely the question of Septimania and
Angouleme. But remember, also, this would only apply to the
"Plantagenets" after they were in England. There may well
be an historic presumed link in terms of *groups* but
connecting individual to individual gets fuzzy. Bronwen
Edwards
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
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Shawn Potter
According to the following, Ebles' moniker may have not meant that his
parents were unmarried; but only that his mother was Jewish.
(quote)
In "The Halakhic Status of Children born from mixed marriages in
Talmudic Literature", Israel Francus surveys the Tannaitic and Aramaic
sources concerning the status of the children born of a
Jewish-non-Jewish relationship, and examines variant readings and
interpretations of Rishonim (early commentators).
Concerning children born to a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother,
Talmudic opinion appears unanimous--except for one possible Tannaitic
source--that the child is not Jewish. Concerning the child of
non-Jewish father and a Jewish mother opinion is more divided. Many
prominent Tannaim and early Amoraim held such a child to be a mamzer
(a Jew born of a forbidden union, who may marry a convert or another
mamzer, but not a regular Jew). Today's practice of accepting such a
child as a regular Jew is based on the views reported by later
Amoraim.
This paper concludes with an investigation of the structure and
different layers of a crucial Talmudic section concerning the
offspring of a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father. It is suggested
here that some parts of the section are post-Amoraic origin, and that,
in this way, difficulties noted by the Rishonim can be resolved.
(end of quote)
Shawn Potter
Arthur Murata
I may be recalling this somewhat fuzzily, but I seem to
recall that by Edward I, there was considerable backlash
against the Jews in England and for a period of time it was
not a good place to live if you were Jewish. Then, if I
recall correctly, they gradually came back following the
Tudors (or perhaps during the Tudors) until a solid Jewish
middle class had built up in England that lasted until at
least the end of the 19th Century, fell apart during the
1st part of the 20th century, then re-established itself in
modern times. This is overly simplistic, of course, and
maybe I have things bass ackwards; I am thinking also, of
course, of such prominent people as Disraeli. I'm working
on a non-medieval problem in my family genealogy right now
that happens to touch on all this so it was uppermost in my
mind, although without the papers in front of me, I may not
have remembered everything correctly. And there is the
obvious caveat regarding generalizations and attempting to
telepathically know what was in the mind (if anything) of a
particular sovereign.....Bronwen Edwards
D. Spencer Hines
And Generally Bollixed.
Au contraire, the Jews were expelled from England in 1290-1291.
Some were cruelly drowned by a shipmaster who encouraged them to take a
stroll on the tidal flats of the Thames at low tide. He led them far
from the vessel, managed to get back on board himself ---- and left them
to drown.
Edward I expelled the Jews from Gascony in 1287. His Mother, Eleanor de
Provence was so anti-Semitic that she obtained Edward's permission as
early as 1275 that no Jews should live on her estates.
At the completion of the expulsion of 1290-1, only a few converted Jews
allegedly remained in England.
The total Jewish population before the Expulsion has been estimated to
have been about 3,000.
Edward I's action was not reversed until 1656, under Oliver Cromwell.
The supposedly astute, great English king, Edward I ---- one of the most
competent of medieval monarchs ---- expelled the Jews ---- whereas the
supposedly "narrow-minded religious nut" ---- Oliver Cromwell ----
invited them back.
Do you still hate those Puritans?
People who try to apply some sort of strict "logic" to History, based on
their foolish and simplistic preconceptions ---- often wind up shooting
themselves in the foot.
Never sell the Jews short, or count them out.
They are a remarkably talented people, on the whole. They have been
much abused, persecuted and mistreated by Christians --- at various
times and in various places.
1. One of the secrets of the remarkable Jewish success is their
strong and enduring family structures.
2. A second secret of their success is a strong prejudice against
exogamy.
3. A third secret of their success is a strong and enduring respect
for quality education --- and they ensure that their children get it
and fight hard with the educational establishment if they think they
are being shortchanged. They are right on the mark in that.
Christians are often not determined enough fighters for quality
education, which leads some Jews to see them as quite stupid, and
ignorant as well. These Jews often have a point.
I *told* you that Americans were ignorant of History too.
Deus Vult.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Arthur Murata" <lostc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Brant Gibbard
wrote:
>I may be recalling this somewhat fuzzily, but I seem to
>recall that by Edward I, there was considerable backlash
>against the Jews in England and for a period of time it was
>not a good place to live if you were Jewish.
More than that: Edward I completely expelled the Jews from England.
>Then, if I
>recall correctly, they gradually came back following the
>Tudors (or perhaps during the Tudors)
Much later than that: it was Cromwell who allowed them to return.
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@ca.inter.net
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~bgibbard/gen/
Toronto, ON
Jay
loans to princes in the Medieval world. They could not lay claim to
the prettiest maids of the realm, they were lucky if royal protection
was not suddenly withdrawn. The Jews were not in a position to make
much demands on royals and nobles even if they were moneylenders and
the Prince needed money. It is a precarious thing for a Jew to say no
to someone in importance if they wanted to do business in that country
again. Even when they behaved, they would find themselves run out of
country after country including England.
I suspect all the descents from Ancient Judea, it is not that the
plantagenets and others might not have such descents, but I doubt they
can be demonstrated, jews intermarried with moslems and christians and
christians intermarried with moslems and jews as the tides of empire
swept back and forth across Europe and the middle east so it is
possible, but it is also possible that the Plantagenets are descended
from alien visitors from the planet Nablux, but are we going to put
Hayuk I of Nablux down on our lists of ancestors based just on a
possibility, without documentary support to at lease create a
likelihood?
Sam Sloan
me if the Jews were ever expelled from Ireland?
My friend Bobby Fischer wants to know.
Todd A. Farmerie
> According to the following, Ebles' moniker may have not meant that his
> parents were unmarried; but only that his mother was Jewish.
Your quote shows that "mamzer" was used for such a person by
talmudic authors, but this does not really give any support to
Ebles having had a jewish mother. The important issue is what
the Poitevin society of the time used the nickname Manzer for -
if they used it for any illegitimate, then what ancient jewish
tradition used it for is irrelevant.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> This is just a thought, since I am not sure why it would be
> important to try to link the "Plantagenets" with ancient
> Judea and even less sure that the question is on topic, but
> here goes. IF
IF, yes IF. With enough IFs, anything is possible. :)
> Garcia I Iniquez, King of Pamplona, d. c.
Actually, the debated theory regards the marriage of his son
Fortun Garces to "Oria".
> 880, was married to Auria of the Banu Qasi,
Ah, there's the rub - no evidence that she was a member of the
Banu Qasi.
> this brings
> Islam as a religion into one of the founding royal families
> of Spain; the Banu Qasi, in turn, married Arab Muslims
> (since they were not Arabs themselves).
There is no evidence that the Banu Qasi ancestors of the supposed
father of Auria married any muslims, Arab or otherwise (we know
that one married a christian, and we know absolutely nothing
about the others, nor are any long-hidden documents likely to
turn up, unless they are discovered by the Templars). Certainly
they used muslim names, but this could just be an example of
cultural mimmicing, like the Normans using French names following
their baptism. This line may give you nothing more than basques
and visigotho-romans.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Your incorrect opinion is contradicted by:
>
> A Window into Jewish Medieval Life
> http://www.tau.ac.il/taunews/97spring/medieval.html
Which contains a lot of interesting material, all of it of
absolutely no relevance to the reason Jewish moneylenders were
encouraged to accompany the Norman settlement of England.
> PLEASE NOTE THIS IMPORTANT
> COMMENT: " Ben Yiju's story is
> probably just one of thousands" . . .
Please note that an irrelevant story is still irrelevant, even
when there are thousands more like it.
(Of course, the expected response is another irrelevant URL and
long quote, the hope apparently being to bore people into
distraction. I will not be responding further.)
taf
A Tsar Is Born
> archaeological discoveries that support the historicity of the Hebrew
> Scriptures, I thought how interesting it would be to discover ancient
> any other credible Plantagenet ancestral lines that might connect to
> ancient Judea?
The simple answer is: No.
> Some have pointed out that religious prohibitions against interfaith
> marriage may have prevented such connections. On the other hand, Don
> Stone points out that new dynasties acquire legitimacy by marrying
> descendants of old dynasties, forging links that may be forgotten in
> time as attention turns from the old to the new. I wonder if this
> factor might open the possibility of a Plantagenet connection to
> ancient Judea?
Only if they were claiming Judaea. As they regarded Jesus as its King,
they made no such claim, and marriage into the dynasty would have
served no earthly (sic) purpose for them. The Judaean dynasty had no
claim to the part of the world where the Plantagenets lived.
We know who the Angevins of the Crusading period married. None of them
would ever have considered marrying a non-Christian.
> For example, is it possible that such a connection exists among
> pre-Christian Hungarian rulers? Some have posted notes to this
> newsgroup about the idea that Zoltan (b. c. 896 and d. c. 947) married
> a woman from Khazaria's aristocracy. If Khazaria's aristocracy, which
> originated in Siberia, converted to Judaeism one hundred or more years
> before Zoltan's marriage (scholars disagree about when Khazaria's
> aristocracy converted to Judaeism) and sought during that time to
> forge marriage alliances with prominent Middle Eastern Jewish
> families, then Zoltan's wife easily might have descended from ancient
> Judea--and even from the House of David.
That's a mountain of surmise and coincidence you're erecting on a
molehill of fact. Yes, all this is possible but none of it is remotely
likely. There was little or no contact between Khazaria and the actual
Jews, and few of the Khazars converted.
If your grandmother had had wheels, she'd have been a trolleycar. That
is far more likely to have been true than that a Plantagenet married a
Jewish dynast.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsar...@hotmail.com
A Tsar Is Born
> Your incorrect opinion is contradicted by:
>
> A Window into Jewish Medieval Life
> http://www.tau.ac.il/taunews/97spring/medieval.html
So I read that. Not germane.
It said nothing about anything that occurred in Europe. It was all
about Cairo.
Note that the "Norman Conquest" referred to is the Norman Conquest of
Sicily and Malta in the late 11th century and has nothing to do with
England.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
There isn't a single document about an intermarriage between a Jew and
a gentile in England prior to the late 17th century, is there?
(Possibly the 18th century.)
Moreover, there was a very strong prejudice against it, on both sides.
This Jew stands with TAF (and, I regret to say, DSH) on the question.
William Black
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:R3xl8.2359$GH4....@eagle.america.net...
> At the completion of the expulsion of 1290-1, only a few converted Jews
> allegedly remained in England.
Cite please
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
William Black
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:R3xl8.2359$GH4....@eagle.america.net...
William Black
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:R3xl8.2359$GH4....@eagle.america.net...
> The total Jewish population before the Expulsion has been estimated to
> have been about 3,000.
>
> Edward I's action was not reversed until 1656, under Oliver Cromwell.
So how exactly did Mendoza (Queen Elizabeth's doctor) get in?
Shawn Potter
>
> Your quote shows that "mamzer" was used for such a person by
> talmudic authors, but this does not really give any support to
> Ebles having had a jewish mother. The important issue is what
> the Poitevin society of the time used the nickname Manzer for -
> if they used it for any illegitimate, then what ancient jewish
> tradition used it for is irrelevant.
>
> taf
If the word is Hebrew, then its meaning must be sought in the writings
of the talmudic authors. If the word is French (whether its ultimate
origin was Hebrew, or Latin, or Greek, or Gaelic, etc.), then its
meaning must be sought in the writings of French authors.
Can you show that "mamzer" or "manzer" or "mancer" was a common
moniker used by the French during this period? If not, then the
talmudic definition certainly is relevant.
Shawn Potter
Shawn Potter
> talmudic authors, but this does not really give any support to
> Ebles having had a jewish mother. The important issue is what
> the Poitevin society of the time used the nickname Manzer for -
> if they used it for any illegitimate, then what ancient jewish
> tradition used it for is irrelevant.
>
> taf
The web site (http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe) contains
an online Latin dictionary. It defines both "manzer" and "mamzer" as
bastard. It does not contain a definition of "mancer."
This appears to answer my question about the meaning of the word in
medieval French records. But, I wonder if anyone has access to an
etymological dictionary of medieval Latin, which might indicate how
frequently the word appears and in what contexts--just to make sure
that the on-line definition is a reliable arbiter in this particular
circumstance.
Shawn Potter
Kevin Brook
> There was little or no contact between Khazaria and the actual Jews
Wrong. There is reliable evidence that shows that there was lots of
immigration of "actual" Jews into Khazaria. Read al-Masudi's
chronicles, for instance, which talk about persecuted Jews coming from
Byzantium into Khazaria.
The royal family of Khazaria probably had little Judean ancestry, but
the Cambridge Document claimed that King Bulan was part-Judean. Some
Hungarian noblemen did marry Khazar princesses, but their descendants
cannot be definitely identified as Judeans. Canadian royalists claim
that Queen Elizabeth II of England descends from these Khazar
princesses.
By the way, what's with this word "actual"? Converts are real Jews,
too. You meant to say "...and the Judeans".
> and few of the Khazars converted.
That point is still debatable. Historical evidence shows that many
Khazars and Alans converted to Judaism, while archaeological evidence
so far might show the opposite. The final answer is not yet known
because the most important Khazar city, Atil, has not yet been
located, and not all Khazar fortresses from the Jewish period have
been examined.
By the way, have you read Alexander Beider's book "A Dictionary of
Ashkenazic Given Names" in which he gives evidence that the genealogy
of Russian Jews includes many Slavic-speaking Jews with Slavic names
who preceded the Yiddish-speaking Jews. The Slavic-speaking Jews
could be part-Khazar. Furthermore, genetic evidence shows that some
Ashkenazic lineages may trace back to eastern Europeans (Slavs and/or
Khazars).
Arthur Murata
Oh hey, I could just blame it on menopause but then what
excuse would I have the next time I shot someone's --- off?
You caught me in one of my moods - I should have stopped
with "thank you". Best, Bronwen
Arthur Murata
there somewhere too. Bronwen
Arthur Murata
whose maiden name was Fischer, who was in England at the
end of the 19th century, and who has at least one member of
her family getting married in Whitechapel. So next time you
see Bobby, tell him I'm looking for him! Bronwen
Arthur Murata
documentation to an extreme. Granted, when one is ready to
officially publish the results of their research, the
documentation is crucially important. But one does not get
to theory without hypothesis and one does not get to
hypothesis without brainstorming and creativity. The idea
must occur to someone before it can be researched; then,
after sufficient testing, it either stands or it doesn't. I
think we should encourage creative thinking with the caveat
that it is part of an early step in the process of doing
genealogy (or any other pursuit based on the principles of
scientific inquiry). Loosen up. Best, Bronwen
Doug Weller
black_...@hotmail.com says...
> D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
> news:R3xl8.2359$GH4....@eagle.america.net...
>
> > The total Jewish population before the Expulsion has been estimated to
> > have been about 3,000.
> >
> > Edward I's action was not reversed until 1656, under Oliver Cromwell.
>
> So how exactly did Mendoza (Queen Elizabeth's doctor) get in?
>
in London also, but so far as I know they kept their Jewish origin quiet
as it was still illegal to be a Jew in England.
Doug
--
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Todd A. Farmerie
> "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message news:<3C96D3C...@interfold.com>...
>
>>Your quote shows that "mamzer" was used for such a person by
>>talmudic authors, but this does not really give any support to
>>Ebles having had a jewish mother. The important issue is what
>>the Poitevin society of the time used the nickname Manzer for -
>>if they used it for any illegitimate, then what ancient jewish
>>tradition used it for is irrelevant.
>
> If the word is Hebrew, then its meaning must be sought in the writings
> of the talmudic authors.
Not if it's Hebrew, but if it is being used in a Hebrew context
(by hebrews).
> If the word is French (whether its ultimate
> origin was Hebrew, or Latin, or Greek, or Gaelic, etc.), then its
> meaning must be sought in the writings of French authors.
That is really my point - who was calling Ebles by the nickname
"Manzer". If it wasn't a group of talmidic scholars, then we
have to look at how it was used by the people using it at the time.
This, of course, leads to the obvious question - in what early
source(s) is Ebles called "Manzer", and what is the cultural
background of that source?
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> You know, it seems to me that some of you take the need for
> documentation to an extreme. Granted, when one is ready to
> officially publish the results of their research, the
> documentation is crucially important. But one does not get
> to theory without hypothesis and one does not get to
> hypothesis without brainstorming and creativity. The idea
> must occur to someone before it can be researched; then,
> after sufficient testing, it either stands or it doesn't. I
> think we should encourage creative thinking with the caveat
> that it is part of an early step in the process of doing
> genealogy (or any other pursuit based on the principles of
> scientific inquiry). Loosen up. Best, Bronwen
The problem is that creative thinking usually leads people to
create links that never existed. Without requiring evidence,
then there is nothing to root genealogy in reality - it becomes
an artistic exercise rather than a scholarly pursuit. Hypotheses
and brainstorming have their places, but even they must have some
sort of link to evidence - to say that a Hungarian married a
Khazar, and that some of the Khazars had been jewish for a while,
is simply insufficient to even merit consideration of a
genealogical descent of the Plantagenets to the Kings of Judea.
If the necessary documentation does not survive, then the
speculation is entirely futile, while if the documentation does
not exist, then the speculation is superfluous, as you have the
evidence (or not).
taf
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
the Conquest, there were slaves in
England and it is estimated that
circa 1066 there were "70 mints up
and down the country". The king
needed to license moneyers for
trade beyond the local community.
An approximation can be made of
the incoming Jewish population,
by this estimate of mints in use.
REF: Life in Norman England by
O. G. Tomkeieff. He also states
that the court of William the
Conqueror was "a replica of that
of the French king" . . . that
"his own tenants and subjects"
had similar households and similar
officers."
Three Jewish Businesswomen in
Thirteenth Century Winchester,
by Sue Bartlet, proves this very
significant fact. "They were in
contact with many levels of the
social strata, ranging from
royalty and the upper eschelons
of the Church to small farmers,
tradesmen and Christian women."
REF: Frank Cass Publishers.
Pavia is located in Lombardy,
Northern Italy. Primary sources
indicate that circa 1000, royal
trade agreements were made between
the Lombards and the king of the
Angles and Saxons. REF: Medieval
Trade in the Mediterranean World
The Cairo Geniza Jews, were part
of this ancient Jewish trade network.
The 1275 English Statute concerning
the Jews essentially replaced Jews
with the Lombard bankers of Italy;
nevertheless, at a later date, in
the 1300s, in England, accusations
were being made that some of the
Lombards were secret Jews.
In America, circa 2000, about 52%
of Jews marry gentiles. "History
has shown that whenever the Jews
come into contact with a
revolutionary Gentile movement,
large numbers of Jews leave
Orthodoxy and create deviant
movements that bring them closer
to the Gentiles. Hellenism
brought into being the Sadducees,
and eventually Christianity;
and so on through the ages,
until the Reformation brought
the Haskalah Movement of
Moses Mendelssohn, which
eventually devolved into
today's Reform Movement."
http://www.beingjewish.com/ortho/ortho3.html
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] - on
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
---------------------------------------
Sam Sloan
>The Slavic-speaking Jews
>could be part-Khazar. Furthermore, genetic evidence shows that some
>Ashkenazic lineages may trace back to eastern Europeans (Slavs and/or
>Khazars).
What I find interesting about this is that Jews often seem to be either
ignorant of their genealogy or else trying to hide it, but I am not sure
which.
For example, I have recently become able to trace some branches of my
family tree back to the 1600s, but I am told that no Jew in the world can
go back even to 1850. This seems very strange and I am wondering why.
Sam Sloan
Kay Allen AG
truly knowledgeable about Jewish genealogy.
As to hiding their ancestry or not knowing it, there are a few rather
obvious things to be considered.
For hiding, such as the conversos, it was not healthy to be a Jew. So it is
healthier to hide it.
For many Jews, being ignorant of their genealogical heritage is a matter of
either a lack of records being created or a destruction of records. But
many Jews are getting past 1850 with diligence.
Kay Allen AG
Shawn Potter
> You know, it seems to me that some of you take the need for
> documentation to an extreme. Granted, when one is ready to
> officially publish the results of their research, the
> documentation is crucially important. But one does not get
> to theory without hypothesis and one does not get to
> hypothesis without brainstorming and creativity. The idea
> must occur to someone before it can be researched; then,
> after sufficient testing, it either stands or it doesn't. I
> think we should encourage creative thinking with the caveat
> that it is part of an early step in the process of doing
> genealogy (or any other pursuit based on the principles of
> scientific inquiry). Loosen up. Best, Bronwen
Well said. I agree. I raised the question to solicit thoughts about
possible Plantagenet descents from ancient Judeans--not to start a
debate about whether one person or another believes that such a
descent probably exists. There are reasons to suspect that such a
descent does exist. But we won't know for sure until we either fully
trace every Plantagenet ancestral line--an impossible challenge--and
discover none, or until we do discover one. By the way, one
Plantagenet descent from Taksony and his possible Khazarian mother is
as follows:
daughter of Menmarot of Bihar Khazaria? = Zoltan, King of Hungary
Taksony, King of Hungary = daughter of Thonuzoba, Chief of Pechenegs?
Michael, King of Hungary = Adelajda of Poland
Vazul, King of Hungary = Anastasia of Bulgaria
Andrew I, King of Hungary = Anastasia Agmunda of Kiev
Adelaida of Hungary = Vratislav II, King of Bohemia
Judita of Bohemia = Wladislaw I Herman, King of Poland
Boleslaw III, King of Poland = Zbyslava of Kiev
Wladislaw II, Prince of Poland = Agnes of Austria
Ryksa of Poland = Alfonso VII, King of Castile
Sancha of Castile = Alfonso II, King of Aragon
Alfonso, Count of Provence = Gersenda of Sabran
Raymond Berenger V, Count of Provence = Beatrice of Savoy
Eleanor of Provence = Henry III, King of England
The marriage alliances of these Plantagenet ancestors are interesting
because, since they (these kings of Hungary) had not yet adopted
Christianity, they may have been more likely to marry Jewish or Moslem
wives.
Shawn Potter
Arthur Murata
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
> ;
> The problem is that creative thinking usually leads
> people to
> create links that never existed. Without requiring
> evidence,
> then there is nothing to root genealogy in reality - it
> becomes
> an artistic exercise rather than a scholarly pursuit.
Evidence is required - I am not arguing against that. But
you *begin* the inquiry with a thought, a flash of
inspiration, a *what if* idea. Gathering evidence is where
the idea begins to be put to the test. If "creative
thinking" leads mostly to "links that never existed",
perhaps it was because someone with an idea tried to bounce
the idea off of someone else only to be told to produce the
proof of it before engaging in the research that would be
required to provide proof. Part of gathering the evidence
in most scholarly circles is brainstorming, testing the
idea with different people who may or may not agree that it
is worth examining. Where does the non-academic go with
such an idea,perhaps rooted in a family tradition
(misguided or otherwise), if they cannot receive a gentler
form of guidance into a more scientific means of
documentating their sources? And what is the purpose of a
meeting of academics - the sharing of papers prior to
publication, discussion groups, etc. - in the context of a
conference. I see this group as akin to such a conference
with the excitement added that it is international in scope
with near-instant feedback and brings in those who have not
yet acculturated to the academic way of doing things. I
think scholars are aware of the need to examine, test, and
document. Others need to be taught that it is necessary to
do that and then guided to where they can learn to do it.
When I assign a research paper to my college students, I
don't demand the documentation *before* they write the
paper!
So my message is still - loosen up! Ideas can't hurt you
but the fear of expressing ideas openly to a group that you
perceive (rightly or wrongly) to be your peers can most
certainly hurt you. Good thoughts, Bronwen Edwards (Murata)
> Hypotheses
> and brainstorming have their places, but even they must
> have some
> sort of link to evidence - to say that a Hungarian
> married a
> Khazar, and that some of the Khazars had been jewish for
> a while,
> is simply insufficient to even merit consideration of a
> genealogical descent of the Plantagenets to the Kings of
> Judea.
> If the necessary documentation does not survive, then the
>
> speculation is entirely futile, while if the
> documentation does
> not exist, then the speculation is superfluous, as you
> have the
> evidence (or not).
>
> taf
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŽ
http://movies.yahoo.com/
Arthur Murata
specific question that this thread addresses nor to the
specific individuals who are participating in it. Bronwen
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
D. Spencer Hines
| specific question that this thread addresses nor to the
| specific individuals who are participating in it. Bronwen
Translation: "I am farblondjet. So, never mind!"
True Enough.
Peter Stewart
news:3.0.6.32.2002032...@ishipress.com...
I am wondering why you would listen to anyone so foolish -- whoever told
you this was probably pulling your leg. Have you never heard of the
Rothschilds and the Sassoons, amongst many other Jewish families who
were prominent well before 1850? It was fashionable in the late 19th and
early 20th centuries for wealthy European Jewish families to publish
extensive genealogies, some of them fairly well documented back to the
16th century or occasionally further. You should be able to find such
books in a large university or other reference library in the USA.
Peter Stewart
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Todd A. Farmerie
> Sancha of Castile = Alfonso II, King of Aragon
> Alfonso, Count of Provence = Gersenda of Sabran
Alfonso II, Vount of Provence
> Raymond Berenger V, Count of Provence = Beatrice of Savoy
Raymond Berenger IV, Count of Provence
> Eleanor of Provence = Henry III, King of England
>
> The marriage alliances of these Plantagenet ancestors are interesting
> because, since they (these kings of Hungary) had not yet adopted
> Christianity, they may have been more likely to marry Jewish or Moslem
> wives.
Yes, but it is also more likely that material this early is of
questionable authenticity.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Evidence is required - I am not arguing against that. But
> you *begin* the inquiry with a thought, a flash of
> inspiration, a *what if* idea.
No, that's backwards. You begin with a piece (or collection) of
evidence, and ask "what are the implications of this?". If
brainstorming is to be of value, then it must be "what could this
piece of evidence mean", rather than simply a "what if John of
Gaunt had a Jewish ancestor?". If you don't have any reason to
think this was the case (in other words, evidence) then the
speculation is without merit.
> Gathering evidence is where
> the idea begins to be put to the test.
Gathering _further_ evidence, yes, but unless the original
hypothesis is evidence-driven, then you might as well be throwing
darts in the dark with a blindfold and vertigo.
> If "creative
> thinking" leads mostly to "links that never existed",
> perhaps it was because someone with an idea tried to bounce
> the idea off of someone else only to be told to produce the
> proof of it before engaging in the research that would be
> required to provide proof.
Not proof, but evidence. Appropriate hypotheses are not
developed in a vacuum. You start with evidence, then you draw
connections. Then you look for more evidence for your
connections. If you have no evidentiary basis, then you can form
no productive hypotheses.
And the reason that "creative thinking" leads to "links that
never existed" is not due to suppression by the intellegencia,
but rather that most "creative thinkers" think that they are
ingenious, even to the point of dismissing perfectly viable
evidence simply because it is in contrast with their
reconstruction, rather than limiting their reconstruction to that
which is merited by the data. A hypothesis develops a life of
its own, independent of the data - just look how many people have
entered Clemence de Foix into their database, even though she
never existed except in the head of Vajay. If a hypothesis is
not grounded in data, then it is groundless, without merit (even
if through some lucky quirk of fate it ends up being right - even
a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally). The whole concept
that value could come from baseless "what if?"s is anathema to a
scholarly and productive approach (if some resemblance to reality
is desired).
> And what is the purpose of a
> meeting of academics - the sharing of papers prior to
> publication, discussion groups, etc. - in the context of a
> conference.
To share EVIDENCE and the interpretation based on that evidence,
and to refine the interpretation based on additional evidence.
(That and to make contacts useful in further research and
academic career paths.)
> When I assign a research paper to my college students, I
> don't demand the documentation *before* they write the
> paper!
But you had better demand that they *collect* the documentation
before they write the paper, unless you teach creative writing.
It is a hallmark of bad scholarship (all too common in some
circles) to decide what you want to conclude, and only then look
for evidence to support it.
> So my message is still - loosen up! Ideas can't hurt you
> but the fear of expressing ideas openly to a group that you
> perceive (rightly or wrongly) to be your peers can most
> certainly hurt you.
Ideas without basis, groundless "what ifs", are a waste of
everybody's time, and the pursuit of them will only make you
older, not wiser. (And expressing ill-conceived ideas to your
peers can also hurt you - right in your reputation.)
taf
Francisco Antonio Doria
To add to the mess: I had yesterday a long
conversation with a very erudite old friend (he was a
Franciscan friar, and has a doctorate in philosophy
from the Ateneo Ambrosiano). He is also descended from
an old Marrano family. I add that because the
discussion was about a possible Hittite derivation of
the name `David,' `Daud,' and a fortiori a mix-up in
the Davidic lines.
chico
--- Peter Stewart <peter....@crsrehab.gov.au>
escreveu: > "Sam Sloan" <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote in
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Empregos
O trabalho dos seus sonhos pode estar aqui. Cadastre-se hoje mesmo no Yahoo! Empregos e tenha acesso a milhares de vagas abertas!
http://br.empregos.yahoo.com/
Shawn Potter
> By the way, one Plantagenet descent from Taksony and his possible
> Khazarian mother is as follows:
>
> daughter of Menmarot of Bihar Khazaria? = Zoltan, King of Hungary
> Taksony, King of Hungary = daughter of Thonuzoba, Chief of Pechenegs?
> Michael, King of Hungary = Adelajda of Poland
> Vazul, King of Hungary = Anastasia of Bulgaria
> Andrew I, King of Hungary = Anastasia Agmunda of Kiev
> Adelaida of Hungary = Vratislav II, King of Bohemia
> Judita of Bohemia = Wladislaw I Herman, King of Poland
> Boleslaw III, King of Poland = Zbyslava of Kiev
> Wladislaw II, Prince of Poland = Agnes of Austria
> Ryksa of Poland = Alfonso VII, King of Castile
> Sancha of Castile = Alfonso II, King of Aragon
> Alfonso, Count of Provence = Gersenda of Sabran
> Raymond Berenger V, Count of Provence = Beatrice of Savoy
> Eleanor of Provence = Henry III, King of England
>
> The marriage alliances of these Plantagenet ancestors are interesting
> because, since they (these kings of Hungary) had not yet adopted
> Christianity, they may have been more likely to marry Jewish or Moslem
> wives.
>
> Shawn Potter
Rabbi Chisdai ibn Shaprut (c. 915-c. 990), vizier to Caliph Abd
ar-Rahman III in Spain, corresponded with Joseph, King of Khazaria.
In Joseph's letter to Chisdai, he listed his ancestry as follows [see
"The Kurzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith," by Rabbi Yehuda
HaLevi, translated and annotated by N. Daniel Korobkin, (Northvale,
NJ: Jason Aronson, Inc., 1998), pp. 354-355]:
Bulan (Joseph said Bulan converted to Judaism.)
Obadiah
Hezekiah
Manashe
Channuka
Isaac
Zebulun
Moses
Nissi
Menachem
Benjamin
Aaron
Joseph (He reigned from the late 930s to c. 960.)
Scholars disagree about when the Khazars adopted Judaism. According
to "The Kuzari," p. 352, one version of King Joseph's letter states
that Bulan adopted Judaism in the mid-600s. This agrees with Joseph's
lineage, making each generation about 25 years in length. According
to King Joseph, Bulan considered both Christianity and Islam before
choosing Judaism. Muhammad "the Prophet" died in 632. Could Bulan
have encountered Moslem "evangelists" in Khazaria in the mid-600s?
Other scholars suggest that the Khazars adopted Judaism later--either
in the 700s (HaLevi) or in the 800s (Brook).
Taksony, King of Hungary, was born about 930; so, his mother--said by
Prince Isenburg (Freytag von Loringhoven), vol. ii, p. 104, to be a
daughter of Maroth (Menmarot?), Prince of the Bihar Khazars--probably
was born about 910.
Shawn Potter
Chris Bennett
"Shawn Potter" <shp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7004aa4b.02032...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
>
> Rabbi Chisdai ibn Shaprut (c. 915-c. 990), vizier to Caliph Abd
> ar-Rahman III in Spain, corresponded with Joseph, King of Khazaria.
> In Joseph's letter to Chisdai, he listed his ancestry as follows [see
> "The Kurzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith," by Rabbi Yehuda
> HaLevi, translated and annotated by N. Daniel Korobkin, (Northvale,
> NJ: Jason Aronson, Inc., 1998), pp. 354-355]:
>
> Bulan (Joseph said Bulan converted to Judaism.)
> Taksony, King of Hungary, was born about 930; so, his mother--said by
> Prince Isenburg (Freytag von Loringhoven), vol. ii, p. 104, to be a
> daughter of Maroth (Menmarot?), Prince of the Bihar Khazars--probably
> was born about 910.
1) Its a little anachronistic to call Taksony a king. Khagan perhaps.
2) Is there any data connecting Maroth/Menmaroth to the Khazar main line? I
seriously doubt it.
3) By Joseph's own reckoning he was descended from a Turkish khagan. You
would be better off arguing for a connection to the Asenas of Central Asia
via this route (and people have done so) than for a connection to Judea.
Chris
>
> Shawn Potter
norenxaq
Chris Bennett wrote:
> "Shawn Potter" <shp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:7004aa4b.02032...@posting.google.com...
> <snip>
> >
> > Rabbi Chisdai ibn Shaprut (c. 915-c. 990), vizier to Caliph Abd
> > ar-Rahman III in Spain, corresponded with Joseph, King of Khazaria.
> > In Joseph's letter to Chisdai, he listed his ancestry as follows [see
> > "The Kurzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith," by Rabbi Yehuda
> > HaLevi, translated and annotated by N. Daniel Korobkin, (Northvale,
> > NJ: Jason Aronson, Inc., 1998), pp. 354-355]:
> >
> > Bulan (Joseph said Bulan converted to Judaism.)
> <snip rest of Joseph's ancestry>
>
> > Taksony, King of Hungary, was born about 930; so, his mother--said by
> > Prince Isenburg (Freytag von Loringhoven), vol. ii, p. 104, to be a
> > daughter of Maroth (Menmarot?), Prince of the Bihar Khazars--probably
> > was born about 910.
>
> 1) Its a little anachronistic to call Taksony a king. Khagan perhaps.
He is usually refered to as a Duke.
>
>
> 2) Is there any data connecting Maroth/Menmaroth to the Khazar main line? I
> seriously doubt it.
no. only guesswork and theory
norenxaq
Shawn Potter wrote:
> shp...@comcast.net (Shawn Potter) wrote in message news:<7004aa4b.02032...@posting.google.com>...
> > By the way, one Plantagenet descent from Taksony and his possible
> > Khazarian mother is as follows:
> >
> > daughter of Menmarot of Bihar Khazaria? = Zoltan, King of Hungary
> > Taksony, King of Hungary = daughter of Thonuzoba, Chief of Pechenegs?
> > Michael, King of Hungary = Adelajda of Poland
> > Vazul, King of Hungary = Anastasia of Bulgaria
> > Andrew I, King of Hungary = Anastasia Agmunda of Kiev
> > Adelaida of Hungary = Vratislav II, King of Bohemia
> > Judita of Bohemia = Wladislaw I Herman, King of Poland
> > Boleslaw III, King of Poland = Zbyslava of Kiev
> > Wladislaw II, Prince of Poland = Agnes of Austria
> > Ryksa of Poland = Alfonso VII, King of Castile
> > Sancha of Castile = Alfonso II, King of Aragon
> > Alfonso, Count of Provence = Gersenda of Sabran
> > Raymond Berenger V, Count of Provence = Beatrice of Savoy
> > Eleanor of Provence = Henry III, King of England
> >
> > The marriage alliances of these Plantagenet ancestors are interesting
> > because, since they (these kings of Hungary) had not yet adopted
> > Christianity, they may have been more likely to marry Jewish or Moslem
> > wives.
> >
> > Shawn Potter
>
> Rabbi Chisdai ibn Shaprut (c. 915-c. 990), vizier to Caliph Abd
> ar-Rahman III in Spain, corresponded with Joseph, King of Khazaria.
> In Joseph's letter to Chisdai, he listed his ancestry as follows [see
> "The Kurzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith," by Rabbi Yehuda
> HaLevi, translated and annotated by N. Daniel Korobkin, (Northvale,
> NJ: Jason Aronson, Inc., 1998), pp. 354-355]:
>
> Bulan (Joseph said Bulan converted to Judaism.)
> Obadiah
> Hezekiah
> Manashe
> Channuka
> Isaac
> Zebulun
> Moses
> Nissi
> Menachem
> Benjamin
> Aaron
> Joseph (He reigned from the late 930s to c. 960.)
>
> Scholars disagree about when the Khazars adopted Judaism. According
> to "The Kuzari," p. 352, one version of King Joseph's letter states
> that Bulan adopted Judaism in the mid-600s. This agrees with Joseph's
> lineage, making each generation about 25 years in length. According
> to King Joseph, Bulan considered both Christianity and Islam before
> choosing Judaism. Muhammad "the Prophet" died in 632. Could Bulan
> have encountered Moslem "evangelists" in Khazaria in the mid-600s?
> Other scholars suggest that the Khazars adopted Judaism later--either
> in the 700s (HaLevi) or in the 800s (Brook).
No one accepts a date in the 600s for the Khazari conversion. This is believed to be an error on Joseph's part.
Bulan is usually dated to around 732-740, with the conversion happening in 740.
>
>
D. Spencer Hines
derivation of the name `David,' `Daud,' and a fortiori a mix-up in the
Davidic lines."
Francisco Antonio Doria
-------------------------------
Please continue, Chico ---- that sounds fascinating.
Aloha,
Spencer
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
a portion of their ancestry back
to the 11th century because they
can demonstrate descendancy from
the great rabbi Shlomo ben Isaac,
known as Rashi, . . . found at
http://www.nodabyehuda.com/
. . . alleged ascent to King David
http://dpt-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~loeb/tree/biblical.html
. . .
Shealtiel family research claiming
descent from King David at
http://www.shealtiel.org/david.html
. . history of the Shealtiel family at
http://www.shealtiel.org/history.html.
The Charlaps have a site at
http://www.charlap.org
Additional information at
http://www.avotaynu.com/bookrefj.htm#charlap]
REFERENCE:
http://www.avotaynu.com/nu3.htm
One of the issues not approached
in the intelligent study of Jewish
medieval ancestry is that of the
difference between a surname and
an honorary title. The assimilated
Jewish family would first appear in
the gentile world record sources,
identified by honorary title
designation.
Louis Newman wrote about the
Jewish Influence on Christian
Reform Movements, suggesting that
Judaizing "was used by Christian
ecclesiastics like Agobard, who
charged Christians at Lyons
(in the ninth century) with Jewish
inclinations and habits. In the
historical literature of the
twelfth and thirteenth centuries,
the term 'Judaizer' won frequent
place, and came to designate either
individuals or groups, who, as in
Lombardy, adopted a Jewish outlook
on life, and Jewish forms of ceremony
and conduct." From an Archaic
standpoint, a Lombard was a
banker or pawnbroker, the KEY
Jewish occupation; "Late Latin
compound Longobardus, Langobardus
(with Germanic ethnic name
*Bardi): LOMBARD, LUMBER . . .".
[From the fifth century, following
the example of the Byzantines (then
known as "Syrians"), the Jews developed
commercial activities on an
international scale, operating by
land and by sea. These two groups
had the upper hand in Mediterranean
commerce. After the defeat at
Poitiers, this commerce passed in
part under the domination of the Jews.
They exported slaves, furs, and silk
manufactures to Italy, Spain, and
the Levant, and imported to Gaul
spices, balsam, garum, dates, brocades,
and precious metals. The crossroads
of this luxury trade were located in
the Meuse and at Narbonne. These traders
could be found even in Paris, on
the Île de la Cité, near the forecourt
of Notre Dame today.]
http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/s6706.html
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition [54th] - on
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
----------------------------------
Chris Bennett
"norenxaq" <nore...@nethere.com> wrote in message
news:3C9A05E2...@nethere.com...
>
>
> Chris Bennett wrote:
<snip>
> >
> > 1) Its a little anachronistic to call Taksony a king. Khagan perhaps.
>
> He is usually refered to as a Duke.
>
In Western sources, but that reflects the fact that he was a pagan leader of
his people, out of the orbit of Christendom.
Chris
Kevin Brook
1. Taksony is usually called a duke or prince, not a khaghan or king.
2. There is no existing evidence that would connect the lineage of the
Transylvanian Kabar/Khazar eltebers Marot and Menmarot to the Khazar
royal family in Atil. We don't know if the families were related,
just as we don't know whether any of the Khazar tarkhans and baliqchis
were of royal background. There are simply no records that could be
examined.
3. I think the claim that Queen Elizabeth II descends from Marot or
Menmarot through the line of descent Shawn Potter indicated should be
taken seriously. I have not seen a good argument that refutes the
claim outright.
Kevin Brook
Francisco Antonio Doria
I'm looking for the references right now. The
discussion was with an old friend, who was a student
of Martin Heidegger.
chico
--- "D. Spencer Hines"
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> escreveu: > "I add
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Arthur Murata
> | I forgot to add that I am not necessarily referring to
> the
> | specific question that this thread addresses nor to the
> | specific individuals who are participating in it.
> Bronwen
>
> Translation: "I am farblondjet. So, never mind!"
>
> True Enough.
>
through my ploy and realize that you alone standing
solitary on your magnificent - oops, almost divulged
another secret! - I knew that the magnificent Spencie would
see immediately that he is the sole exception to my
statement about brainstorming - for obvious reason. To
brainstorm, one must have more than just the storm...
your tweedie-bits, Bronwen
> Deus Vult.
>
> "One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe
> things like that: no
> ordinary man could be such a fool."
>
> George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes
> on
> Nationalism_, May, 1945
>
> All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
> All original material contained herein is copyright and
> property of the
> author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this
> forum and with an
> attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise
> expressly
> given, in writing.
> ---------
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
> Vires et Honor.
>
>
Arthur Murata
speaker or poster, is clear about what is speculative and
what is evidence-driven and open for interpretation, there
is no harm done in brainstorming. Perhaps genealogy is
different than other social sciences - actually I guess
that's pretty obvious - in that participants have every
conceivable degree of education and ability when they
communicate with one another in the news group. I come out
of the social sciences but I am not a specialist in
genealogy. I do insist that my students brainstorm and then
gather evidence to *test* the *questions* (not answers)
that arose from the brainstorming. I do indeed caution them
to look at as many different perspectives as they can find
and not narrow their focus to those which fit their
hypothesis. And I do grade their papers strictly,
emphasizing the use of source materials.
We are speaking, I think, of process, not product. And
perhaps we will have to agree to disagree about how that
process can develop. Perhaps it is a matter of the
personality of the researcher - left brain, right brain,
guy thing, girl thing, whatever. And now prepare yourself -
I'm going to use a word that will make you very unhappy -
there are some people whose *intuition* may lead them to
the evidence that will provide the sources needed to test
(not necessarily support) their original hypothesis. Thank
you for your courteous reply. Respectfully, Bronwen Edwards
--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
D. Spencer Hines
Arthur, alias Bronwen, follows up with a Determined Defense for
Continued Flakiness.
It's interesting to see the sort of mush with which she fills her
students' heads ---- so starkly revealed, right here on SGM.
Flakey Teachers Produce Flakey Graduates ---- And The U.S. Is Overrun
With Them.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Arthur/Bronwen needs to take a Basic Thinking 101 course, ASAP.
Deus Vult.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Arthur Murata" <lostc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2002032123392...@web13304.mail.yahoo.com...
Shawn Potter
> 3) By Joseph's own reckoning he was descended from a Turkish khagan. You
> would be better off arguing for a connection to the Asenas of Central Asia
> via this route (and people have done so) than for a connection to Judea.
Reference your comment about me "arguing for a connection." I may
come across that way; but, I truly don't have a firm opinion one way
or the other. The information I have seen peaks my interest, and
makes me to want to know more. So, I hope scholars who contribute--or
merely read--postings to this newsgroup will investigate further.
Regarding your statement that Joseph was descended from a Turkish
khagan. Like people everywhere, Joseph surely had a mixed heritage.
In his letter to Rabbi Chisdai, Joseph described his paternal line
ancestors, but he didn't mention his mother or his grandmother or his
great-grandmother, etc. Perhaps we never will know the identities of
Joseph's maternal ancestors. But, recent advances in scholarship on
Khazaria (see Kevin Brook's excellent web pages) suggests that we
shouldn't give up hope before we consider all the evidence. And the
way royal families form marriage alliances--usually with royal or
important families of the same faith--suggests that some of Joseph's
maternal ancestors probably were Jews from the Middle East.
Was Taksony a son of Zoltan's Khazar wife? Was Zoltan's Khazar wife
descended from Joseph's ancestors? Did Joseph's ancestors include
Jews from the Middle East? I don't know; but, I think this line of
inquiry should be investigated.
Shawn Potter
Chris Bennett
<snip>
Perhaps we never will know the identities of
> Joseph's maternal ancestors. But, recent advances in scholarship on
> Khazaria (see Kevin Brook's excellent web pages) suggests that we
> shouldn't give up hope before we consider all the evidence. And the
> way royal families form marriage alliances--usually with royal or
> important families of the same faith--suggests that some of Joseph's
> maternal ancestors probably were Jews from the Middle East.
>
> Was Taksony a son of Zoltan's Khazar wife? Was Zoltan's Khazar wife
> descended from Joseph's ancestors? Did Joseph's ancestors include
> Jews from the Middle East? I don't know; but, I think this line of
> inquiry should be investigated.
>
In the absence of evidence it is not impossible that some of Joseph's
maternal ancestors were Jews from the Middle East. It is equally possible
that some of Joseph's maternal ancestors were Dravidians from Kerala or
Berbers from Morocco.
The key word here is EVIDENCE. You can't assess the degree of probability
for your speculation without it. I have yet to see you cite anything beyond
the well-known fact that the Khazar rulers converted to Judaism. In itself
this tells you absolutely nothing about their marriage policies and the
origins of their partners. I am all for controlled conjecture and
speculation, as anyone who has seen me here in DFA arguments knows. But the
conjecture has to have some control to it if its to be useful -- that is, it
has to be able to suggest and guide an actual program of research, and to
be subject to change from the fruits of that research.
Let me suggest a couple of lines of research to you
We know the Khazars were of Turkish origin. So, you might want to read
about what is known of Turkish marriage strategies of other, perhaps
better-documented, Turkish groups. E.g. did Turkish rulers marry the
daughter of foreign rulers? What are the examples and the crcumstances?
Did they marry within a small circle of select families? What are the
examples? I'm sure there is a lot of literature on this type of thing. The
reason for looking at this type of question is that it helps set the
mindset -- how willing, in general, were Turkish elites to marry
exogamously? Did that change upon conversions (you might look at Turkish
groups that converted to Islam, for example)
To pursue the Jewish option specifically, you could look into the histories
of leading Jews under contemporary Islam or Byzantium (more lkely the
former), and see what you can learn about their families. Keep an eye out
for Jews who got involved in Khazar policy in any way. See if you can
actually trace Jewish threads that take you from (say) Baghdad to Itil.
Conversely, try to trace leading Khazars in middle east -- merchants,
ambassadors etc. Build up a prosopography of these individuals and see what
you learn about the nature of their genealogical networks.
Kevin Brooks can comment better than I on how easy such an exercise would
be -- how much has already been done, how much of the right types of sources
are available in published form and in what languages. I would love to see
the results of such an effort. I guess its a major research project
requiring much training before it can even be attempted. But I think that's
the sort of thing you need to do to be able to take this discussion anywhere
beyond handwaving.
Chris
Todd A. Farmerie
> I'm going to use a word that will make you very unhappy -
> there are some people whose *intuition* may lead them to
> the evidence that will provide the sources needed to test
> (not necessarily support) their original hypothesis.
This doesn't make me unhappy at all, although I guess I would
argue that what is commonly called "intuition" divides into two
categories - dumb luck and expertise, both of which I have
benefited from. (I do not, however, have any use for claims of
'psychic' or 'divively inspired' genealogical success.) That
being said, my disagreement with you ceases after the production
of the original hypothesis - it is in this earliest stage that we
appear to disagree. Here, I think even at the earliest stages
the available data should serve as the platform for
hypothesizing, rather than someone picking a hypothesis de novo,
and then looking to see if there is data that can support it.
taf
Jay
be documented or at least theorized based on some suggestive evidence.
In Spain Jewish, Moor and Christian lines became commingled for
example, but this was with conversos, and even then during flashes of
intollerance there was a detriment to having an ancestor who had
converted, and folks with such an ancestor back even several
generations might be still considered "new christians". I believe
there were some Iberian noble families with some Jewish ancestors and
perhaps elsewhere as well, but they were the result of marriages
between converted Jews and Christians.
The blond hair, blue eyes etc. found in some European Jews suggest
there was mixture between Jews and other peoples in Europe, although
this was often more likely the case of force or illicit unions than
marriage. A mixed marriage would be impossible in medieval times, if
a party converted (and I suspect that a conversion other than Jewish
to Christian would probably have not been allowed in medieval
Christendom) then that would be a different matter, but among the
Upper Classes the circumstances where even a coverted Jew would be a
candidate for marriage would be highly unusual. Perhaps if the Jewish
ancestry were remote enough such an ancestor to a Plantagenet might
exist, but then documenting it would be anothe kettle of fish indeed.
Some have spoken about the difficulty with many Jews have in
documenting their past. This has to do with issues of record keeping
and also preservation of records. Jews often had to flee countries
leaving ghettos and villages put to the torch. I have found that
many Christians cannot trace their ancestors back to the 1800's much
less the 1600's. Many millions of people of European descent may be
descended from say Charlemagne, but I wonder what percentage of the
actual descendants of Charlemagne can actually trace such an ancestry
even if they made the effort. Wars and fires have destroyed many
records in Europe and America. Also as you go back in time, those not
of noble birth are less likely to have records associated with their
births and deaths, and as those on this group are familiar even among
the exalted families the gaps can become chasms.
All homo sapiens are likely descended from a population of humans from
Southern Africa gulping down shellfish some 150,000 years ago. Try
and trace it.
Shawn Potter
> To pursue the Jewish option specifically, you could look into the histories
> of leading Jews under contemporary Islam or Byzantium (more lkely the
> former), and see what you can learn about their families. Keep an eye out
> for Jews who got involved in Khazar policy in any way. See if you can
> actually trace Jewish threads that take you from (say) Baghdad to Itil.
> Conversely, try to trace leading Khazars in middle east -- merchants,
> ambassadors etc. Build up a prosopography of these individuals and see what
> you learn about the nature of their genealogical networks.
>
> Kevin Brooks can comment better than I on how easy such an exercise would
> be -- how much has already been done, how much of the right types of sources
> are available in published form and in what languages. I would love to see
> the results of such an effort. I guess its a major research project
> requiring much training before it can even be attempted. But I think that's
> the sort of thing you need to do to be able to take this discussion anywhere
> beyond handwaving.
Thanks for your great suggestions. I have two thoughts in reply. You
say I should do this work. I would love to; but, don't wait for me.
I have other responsibilities. Secondly, I hope scholars who examine
current and future discoveries will keep this question in mind. Not
asking the question probably means not finding the answer.
Shawn Potter
Cristopher Nash
news:7004aa4b.0203...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
Perhaps we never will know the identities of
> Joseph's maternal ancestors. But, recent advances in scholarship on
> Khazaria (see Kevin Brook's excellent web pages) suggests that we
> shouldn't give up hope before we consider all the evidence. And the
> way royal families form marriage alliances--usually with royal or
> important families of the same faith--suggests that some of Joseph's
> maternal ancestors probably were Jews from the Middle East.
>
> Was Taksony a son of Zoltan's Khazar wife? Was Zoltan's Khazar wife
> descended from Joseph's ancestors? Did Joseph's ancestors include
> Jews from the Middle East? I don't know; but, I think this line of
> inquiry should be investigated.
This'll be the first time I'll have recommended a work of fiction in
this forum, but because of the peculiar nature of the work -- i.e.
the density of its historical scholarship, not to mention immense
ingenuity, on the subject at hand -- I can't resist it, though the
book is not for those with digestive difficulties. It's Milorad
Pavic, Dictionary of the Khazars, written in Serbo-Croatian, pub'd in
English in several editions since 1988 (including one by Penguin).
Just as a hint as to what you may be in for: It appears in two
editions - one 'Female', one 'Male', the difference being that one
paragraph is, as the author says, "crucially different".
Good luck!
Cris
--
David R. Teague
Are you perhaps referring to the more than 20 instances in the Mari
tablets (19th - 18th cent. BCE) in which the term "dawidum" occurs?
David Teague
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:38:17 -0000 "D. Spencer Hines"
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes:
> "I add that because the discussion was about a possible Hittite
> derivation of the name `David,' `Daud,' and a fortiori a mix-up in
> the
> Davidic lines."
>
> Francisco Antonio Doria
> -------------------------------
>
> Please continue, Chico ---- that sounds fascinating.
>
> Aloha,
>
> Spencer
>
> "One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like
> that: no
> ordinary man could be such a fool."
>
> George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
> Nationalism_, May, 1945
>
> All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
> All original material contained herein is copyright and property of
> the
> author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
> an
> attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
> given, in writing.
> ---------
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
> Vires et Honor.
>
>
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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Chris Bennett
"Shawn Potter" <shp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7004aa4b.0203...@posting.google.com...
<snip>>
> say I should do this work. I would love to; but, don't wait for me.
> I have other responsibilities.
THe suggestions apply to anyone who wants to argue this topic -- do your
research. They weren't specifically aimed at you as an individual. Sorry
if you feel singled out.
There is one well-known Jewish family in the ME in this period that you
(one) could start with -- the exilarchs. THere is a certain amount of
publlished data and analysis of them, some in English and some in Hebrew.
If you (one) wants an Ariadne thread into this labyrinth, with no guarantee
you will go anywhere across the Caucasus, that's probably the place to
start.
Chris
Francisco Antonio Doria
Dear David,
I think so. Let me add that the issue arose during an
informal chat with an old friend, Emmanuel Carneiro
Leão, who is descended from a family of Marrano roots
and who happens to be my consultor in matters of
linguistics when it comes to Semitic philology.
(Emmanuel was a student of Heidegger.) We were
actually discussing possible etimologies for both
Hevel (Abel) and Kain (Cain), which he thinks are
Chaldaic words in disguise, and as an example he
brought up the question of the possible i.-e. origin
of Dawid, combined to the myths surrounding his
origins, and so on.
I must look for the references, but this will take
some time, as I'm very busy with professional matters
now.
Best, chico
--- "David R. Teague" <davt...@juno.com> escreveu:
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Arthur Murata
out some of the details on my Who's Who update form. Ah
well. Now let me see. A course in basic thinking....should
that come before or after the Kama Sutra class you wanted
me to attend with you? Gotta work those kinks out, boogie
bittie bottoms! My secret of "Flakiness" was out long ago;
everyone on this list knows how crazy I am for you. You
have driven me near insane with passion! Just wait until I
get those handcuffs you promised and I'll send along that
little leather thingey you wanted. Right on the lips,
Bronwen
--- "D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
wrote:
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
http://movies.yahoo.com/
Arthur Murata
out some of the details on my Who's Who update form. Ah
well. Now let me see. A course in basic thinking....should
that come before or after the Kama Sutra class you wanted
me to attend with you? Gotta work those kinks out, boogie
bittie bottoms! My secret of "Flakiness" was out long ago;
everyone on this list knows how crazy I am for you. You
have driven me near insane with passion! Just wait until I
get those handcuffs you promised and I'll send along that
little leather thingey you wanted. Right on the lips,
Bronwen
--- "D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
wrote:
Arthur Murata
is constructive criticism regarding an hypothesis with
guidelines for researching cultural information that may
help help to flesh out the hypothesis and lead toward
evidence that may eventually have opinion leaning toward or
away from the original idea. Bravo for your response, your
courtesy and your advice on methodology.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy AwardsŽ
http://movies.yahoo.com/
Shawn Potter
>
> There is one well-known Jewish family in the ME in this period that you
> (one) could start with -- the exilarchs. THere is a certain amount of
> publlished data and analysis of them, some in English and some in Hebrew.
> If you (one) wants an Ariadne thread into this labyrinth, with no guarantee
> you will go anywhere across the Caucasus, that's probably the place to
> start.
I found an interesting article linked to Kevin Brook's web page
(http://www.khazaria.com/). The article [written in Russian] presents
information from a 10th century letter written by a Khazar Jew--not
the same letter written by King Joseph to Rabbi Chisdai. The letter
provides details about Khazar foreign relations as well as about the
wives of two Khazar kings. Here are a few highlights
(http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/Rest/rest0505.htm):
The author of the letter described how a great Khazar military leader
[Bulan?] married a woman named Sarah, who taught him to live in a
useful manner--according to Jewish law. Sarah's father was a
righteous man in his generation [from Israel?]. Byzantine and Arab
rulers heard about the Khazar leader's conversion and sent wise men to
debate Israeli wise men in Khazaria. After the Khazar leader's
conversion, many Jews from Baghdad, Khorasan [?], Byzantium, and
elsewhere migrated to Khazaria. There was an unconfirmed tradition
that the Khazars descended from the Israeli tribe of Simeon.
The Khazar king made an alliance with neighboring Alans. During the
days of King Benjamin [grandfather of King Joseph], neighboring states
attacked the Khazars. Only the king of the Alans remained
friendly--because some Alans observed the Jewish law.
During the days of King Aaron [father of King Joseph], the Alans
fought against the Khazars. King Aaron captured the king of the
Alans, made him a vasal, and married his [Aaron's] son, Joseph, to the
daughter of the king of the Alans.
Shawn Potter
Sam Sloan
>Actually, I'm trying to track down my great-grandmother
>whose maiden name was Fischer, who was in England at the
>end of the 19th century, and who has at least one member of
>her family getting married in Whitechapel. So next time you
>see Bobby, tell him I'm looking for him! Bronwen
>
>
>--- Sam Sloan <sl...@ishipress.com> wrote:
>> Since you seem to know a lot about this particular
>> subject, could you tell
>> me if the Jews were ever expelled from Ireland?
>>
>> My friend Bobby Fischer wants to know.
Bobby Fischer's ancestry is a great mystery. Nobody knows who his father
was and not much is known about the background of his mother, whose maiden
name was Regina Wender.
It is not even known, where, in what country, Bobby's mother was when she
became pregnant with Bobby. She was living in Moscow at the beginning of
World War II but somehow made it to America and Bobby was born in 1943 not
long after her arrival here.
There is, of course, the inevidable space alien theory.
I have a little bit, all that is known, on my website at
http://www.anusha.com/pafx2.htm
Sam Sloan
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
on this list about only using
primary evidence, without properly
considering the surviving data
sources. Medieval record sources
concerning childhood are rare,
in so much that many are hard pressed
to answer the simple question of
what childhood was like in the
Middle Ages. This does not mean
that there were no children, or
that childhood did not exist. In
like manner, the Jewish record
sources have been "filtered" through
medieval Catholic or anti-Semitic
record sources.
You are, like your compatriots, more
focused on the questions than on the
solutions. Robert Latouche notes in
The Birth of Western Economy, covering
the Economic Aspects of the Dark Ages,
that King Chilperic I had a Jewish
Trader named Priscus. "At the beginning
of the seventh century Dagobert also
had his Jewish negociator, a certain
Solomon."
Slave trade was carried on in the ninth
century, especially by the Jews. One
of several Jewish merchants in the
service of Louis the Pious was Abraham
of Saragossa, who received a grant of
patronage, a "Diploma". Charlemagne's
court Jews became the official palace
merchants of Louis the Pious, there
"enjoying extensive credit". "There
is nothing to prove that these merchants
disappeared" and all evidence shows
these contacts of the Jewish "official
commercial travellers", involved in
slavery, continued into England until
the expulsion. This is a very long,
long time period, covering hundreds of
years.
I refer you to The Germanic Realms in
Pre-Carolingian Central Europe, 400-
750; by Herbert Schutz, Professor of
German. He notes that the origins of
Queens did not deter their rise to
power. DSH delights in telling all
on this list about the many bastards,
coming from many women, of which the
Jews, as slave dealers, would have been
in the position to provide to Kings.
Jewish girl slaves, that is; for Jewish
merchants to retain their precarious
position in the Courts of Europe and
later in the British Isles. See also:
Dark Age Economics, The origins of towns
and trade A.D. 600 - 1000, by
Richard Hodges.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet
Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in
a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition
[54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry,
[both editions]
------------------------------------
A Tsar Is Born wrote:
> vcti...@dcn.org (Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.) wrote in message news:<3C962...@dcn.org>...
>
>>Your incorrect opinion is contradicted by:
>>
>>A Window into Jewish Medieval Life
>>http://www.tau.ac.il/taunews/97spring/medieval.html
>>
>
> So I read that. Not germane.
> It said nothing about anything that occurred in Europe. It was all
> about Cairo.
>
> Note that the "Norman Conquest" referred to is the Norman Conquest of
> Sicily and Malta in the late 11th century and has nothing to do with
> England.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong:
> There isn't a single document about an intermarriage between a Jew and
> a gentile in England prior to the late 17th century, is there?
> (Possibly the 18th century.)
>
> Moreover, there was a very strong prejudice against it, on both sides.
>
> This Jew stands with TAF (and, I regret to say, DSH) on the question.
>
> Jean Coeur de Lapin
> atsar...@hotmail.com
>
Todd A. Farmerie
> There is a very strong prejudice
> on this list about only using
> primary evidence, without properly
> considering the surviving data
> sources. Medieval record sources concerning childhood are rare,
> in so much that many are hard pressed
> to answer the simple question of
> what childhood was like in the
> Middle Ages. This does not mean
> that there were no children, or
> that childhood did not exist.
Quite right. From now on, I will argue that all medievals sprung
fully-formed from the head of Zeus, for which we have direct
documentation of that seems to meet approval on some fronts -
from a vastly different time period, refering to a yet earlier
period about which the source could not possibly know such
detail, and regarding an entirely different context - perfect.
> I refer you to The Germanic Realms in
> Pre-Carolingian Central Europe, 400-
> 750; by Herbert Schutz, Professor of
> German. He notes that the origins of
> Queens did not deter their rise to
> power. DSH delights in telling all
> on this list about the many bastards,
> coming from many women, of which the
> Jews, as slave dealers, would have been
> in the position to provide to Kings.
> Jewish girl slaves, that is; for Jewish
> merchants to retain their precarious position in the Courts of Europe and
> later in the British Isles. See also:
> Dark Age Economics, The origins of towns
> and trade A.D. 600 - 1000, by
> Richard Hodges.
So a source about queens in Germanic realms before 750 is used to
make a specific claims about mistresses in Norman England after
(by definition) 1066. Maybe, just maybe, the cultural context
had altered somewhat, what? Not just that, though - the presence
of jewish slavers (implied from sources relating to other periods
as well) presents a context in your fantasy for them being forced
to provide jewish mistresses to the king, the implication being
that the children born to these mistresses would enter the
nobility (there being evidence for none of this, but why let lack
of evidence interfere with the story one is trying to invent).
You might want to check the historical record - Henry I, Henry
II, or John, the prime producers of bastards who entered the
nobility, found their mistresses among the highest levels of
nobility, including at least one king's daughter. Ask yourself
this - would a child born to a romp with a slave-prostitute be
recognized as royal-born at all? Not bloody likely (not that
some of us let that stand in the way of a good tale).
taf
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
I wish to discuss factual record
keeping. Herbert Schutz notes:
"Since all male members of the
family had a right to the
succession, fear for their positions
and their lives was constant as the
princes and their children were the
potential victims of powerhungry
fathers, mothers, other wives and
concubines, sons and daughters,
brothers and sisters, uncles and
aunts in a most gruesome family
history {84} In the evolution
of the Frankish state these conditions
promoted the marginalization of the
Royal family and the emergence of
an alternate infrastructure of
political power in the figure of the
major domo, the stewart of the
respective palaces." Charlemagne's
court Jews and the Jewish official
palace merchants of Louis the Pious,
with their "extensive credit", etc.,
would have been most intimately
involved with the stewart of the
respective places, as well as
in times past and for many future
years, proven by valid record
sources coming down into the
history of the British Isles.
Herbert Schutz also mentions that:
"The distinction which was drawn
between women was that wives were
freewomen while servant and slave
companions were concubines. The
latter status did not preclude
upward mobility, as Fredigundis
and others demonstrated. {112}
The ADVANTAGE {my emphasis}which
rested in the seeming preference
for elevating female servants and
slaves to Royal rank was their lack
of powerful family ties so that such
a Queen depended on the continuing
favor of her Royal spouse, . . ."
This observation gives the other side
of the coin, re: "lineage was extremely
important" and "very strong prejudice
against it, on both sides", since any
Jewish concubine connection would
insulate the King against Church
intrigue. In looking at the total
picture, one can note that even the
Lombards had a Jewish element, as
heretofore noted in Catholic sources.
Yet, [For the Lombards land
management was not the priority.
A small number of Lombards had been
designated "guests" and it was they
who collected the revenues from the
landowners . . . ]
REFERENCE: The Germanic Realms in
Pre-Carolingian Central Europe,
400-750
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet
Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in
a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition
[54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry,
[both editions]
--------------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
> You may argue however you wish.
> I wish to discuss factual record
> keeping. Herbert Schutz notes:
>
> "Since all male members of the
> family had a right to the
> succession,
You did not half way through the first sentence before the
relevance was lost. This is true of the pre-Carolingian germanic
kingdoms, but not of the Anglo-Norman Plantagenets, who were the
subjects of this discussion.
You claim a desire to discuss factual record keeping, but they
are records relating to an entirely different place and time,
with different cultural norms and practices, than the one at
issue. If you would actually like to discuss 5th to 8th century
Germans, rather than 12th-14th century Plantagenets, be my guest,
but this discussion of Plantagenets using irrelevant Germanic
data simply will not do.
taf
Shawn Potter
> ... If you would actually like to discuss 5th to 8th century
> Germans, rather than 12th-14th century Plantagenets, be my guest,
> but this discussion of Plantagenets using irrelevant Germanic
> data simply will not do.
>
> taf
Please see my original message in this thread. The original question
in this thread concerned ancestors of the Plantagenets--i.e.,
Anglo-Saxons, Scots, Irish, Spanish, French, Germans, Scandinavians,
Hungarians, Poles, Russians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians?,
Pechenegs?, Khazars?, etc.
Surely nobody suspects that a mother of one of the 12th-14th century
Plantagenets was Judean. On the other hand, there is a possibility
that a mother of one of the ancestors of the Plantagenets [especially
among their pre-Christian forebears] was Judean.
Shawn Potter
Jay
> Plantagenets was Judean. On the other hand, there is a possibility
> that a mother of one of the ancestors of the Plantagenets [especially
> among their pre-Christian forebears] was Judean.
The question in genealogy, is not possibilities, but probabilities.
That is descents that can either be documented or at leasted made a
likely probability through supporting evidence. Going back far enough
there may indeed be a Judean, there could perhaps be a Chinese
ancestor if one could trace back far enough. Is there any documentary
evidence for this ancient Judean ancestor other than the fanciful
connections to biblical personages that some medieval genealogists
created? If so that should be the centerpiece of the discussion.
-Jay
Shawn Potter
Brook's web page at http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Palais/6854/irma/.
It is by Irma Khainman and is entitled "Jewish Diaspora and Rus." She
offers evidence to support her thesis that the Rus, ancestors of Rurik
and his descendants, were Hellenized Jews who settled on the North
shore of the Black Sea. Her theory, of course, counters those who say
that the Rus were Scandinavian, as well as those who say that the Rus
were Slavs. She examines the origins of the word "Rus" itself,
ancient references to the Rus, local placenames--such as the seven
rapids on the river trade route between the Baltic Sea and the Black
Sea, pre-Christian Rus religion, adoption of Eastern Orthodoxy rather
than Roman Catholicism, development of the Russian alphabet, etc.
I wonder if the influence of the Hebrew language and Jewish religion
that she cites might result from the proximity of the Rus to Khazaria?
On the other hand, I wonder if pre-Christian ancestors of St. Vladimir
formed marriage alliances with Khazaria? This would explain many of
Khainman's observations.
She also mentions a lost manuscript of Joachim, who became Bishop of
Novgorod in 991, as cited by Tatischev. According to Joachim, Rurik
married a daughter of Gostomysl, who was a son of Burevoy, tenth
Prince of Novgorod. I wonder if further scholarship among early East
European manuscripts will pull St. Vladimir's ancestors out of the
mists of legend, as well as shed light on the question at hand?
By the way, can anyone comment on the origin of the name of St.
Vladimir's maternal grandfather, Malk of Lubech? MLK is the Hebrew
trigraph (root) that means "king." Is this mere coincidence?
Shawn Potter
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
then it will be necessary to delve
into Jewish naming customs, as noted
by Pamela Fletcher Jones, The Jews
of Britain, A Thousand Years of
History. "Though, on the whole, boys
had biblical names, most girls were
given Norman-French names, even as
late as the thirteenth century. They
ranged from Alemandina to Swetecot
and included such un-Jewish appellations
as Almonda, Antera, Claricia, Columbina,
Duzelina, Ermina, Fleur de Lys,
Floricote, Glorietta, Iveta, Margalicia,
Mirabel, Muriel, Paturella, Popelina,
Sapphira, Sigge and many others equally
exotic. There is even a record of
Alfild, an Anglo-Saxon name, being given
to some Jewish girls."
Pamela Fletcher Jones finds evidence of
one Christian lady who married into the
Jewish faith. I also believe there is
evidence in some names of those involved
in the killing of the Jews at York,
(that they were of Scandinavian
descent), related apparently to those
minting and moneymaking concerns outside
the Jewish financial circles.
History shows that up to about the 1200
time period, England was closely tied to
France, and the continued use of Norman-
French names by the female Jewish
population shows more than a passing
interest in their Norman Nobility and
heritage. Even the mother of Moses, of
Biblical fame, was not beneath giving up
her son to adoption within the Royal
Court of the oppressors, to save his life.
Likewise, female Jewish naming patterns
in England suggest a greater desire to
remain part of the ruling secular
organization, than to be identified as
daughters of the Torah, as carried forth
by the desires of Jewish mothers, {some
of whom were of direct interest to the
King because of their family wealth and
business arrangements).
All evidence indicates that the French
tradition was paramount in England
during the first three centuries after
the Conquest; thus, suggesting the real
continuation of the absorption of the
Jewish population within the fabric of
the English ruling class, one that had
French origins on the Continent. The
later issue of very harsh edicts against
Christian - Jewish sexual relationships
validates the fact that the common
social intercourse had gone beyond the
bounds of desired Church and Synagogue
religious mandates.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet
Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in
a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition
[54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry,
[both editions]
------------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie
> There is an interesting article [written in Russian] linked to Kevin
> Brook's web page at http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Palais/6854/irma/.
Can't read it - perhaps you can summarize her arguments. (I have
to say, though, that with all of those "Lost Tribes" out founding
other nations, the whole world must be jewish by now.)
> adoption of Eastern Orthodoxy rather
> than Roman Catholicism,
Just to pick out one - is it necessary to relate this to a Jewish
context, when the most powerful state in the western world, which
also controlled the gateway of most of the Rus trade routes, just
happened to be Byzantium? Isn't that rather self evident? But I
see now reader her transled summary, the military and
administrative elite of the Byzantine Empire was ALSO Jewish.
Such claims usually come out of one of two camps, polar opposite
in their opinion of the trend, but both equally biased in favor
of seeing Jews in control everywhere.
> She also mentions a lost manuscript of Joachim, who became Bishop of
> Novgorod in 991, as cited by Tatischev. According to Joachim, Rurik
> married a daughter of Gostomysl, who was a son of Burevoy, tenth
> Prince of Novgorod. I wonder if further scholarship among early East
> European manuscripts will pull St. Vladimir's ancestors out of the
> mists of legend, as well as shed light on the question at hand?
"Long lost manuscripts" are also the basis for many a
genealogical fiction.
> By the way, can anyone comment on the origin of the name of St.
> Vladimir's maternal grandfather, Malk of Lubech? MLK is the Hebrew
> trigraph (root) that means "king." Is this mere coincidence?
Yes. Most languages have words that sound alike through
convergence rather than homology (after all, there are only so
many combinations of sounds). As such between any two languages,
it is possible to come up with some examples of similar sounding
words with similar meanings (if you are willing to accept a loose
enough version of "similar" in both cases). Generally there are
nothing more than coincidence, (although some are casses of
borrowing one words of one language by another). When languages
truly relate, there is a broad pattern of shared words, not only
in terms of numbers, but also with these numerous word pairs
drifting apart in similar manners between the two languages (for
example, if a V in one language replaces and F in the other, then
many/most Vs in one should be replaced by an F in the other, at
least in analogous contexts).
I don't see anyone trying to derive the English "milk" from this
root, but I guess this wouldn't make Jews kings of anything but
dairies.
Shawn Potter
>
> By the way, can anyone comment on the origin of the name of St.
> Vladimir's maternal grandfather, Malk of Lubech? MLK is the Hebrew
> trigraph (root) that means "king." Is this mere coincidence?
The Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language [Max Vasmer,
"Etimologicheskiy Slovar' Russkogo Yazyka," (Moskva: Progress, 1986;
originally published in Heidelberg, 1950-1958), vol. ii, p. 595]
provides the following information: melik = Caucasus mountains prince;
found among Russian nobility; source of the family name "Melikov;"
from Turkish, Old Uzbek, and Uguric "malik," meaning "king or prince,"
stemming from Arabic.
I suspect that the name of St. Vladimir's maternal grandfather, Malk
of Lubech, stems from this word/name--no other word in Vasmer's
etymological dictionary appears to be a likely source of this name.
And, in light of recent discoveries about the expanse and dominance of
Khazaria throughout and to the North and East of the Caucasus during
this period, as well as recent discoveries about Khazar use of the
Hebrew language, I would ammend Vasmer's definition to state that
"malik" probably stems from the Hebrew word for "king or prince"
rather than from the Arabic word for "king or prince." Even though
both Hebrew and Arabic contain this word, a nobleman in Lubech named
"Malk" or "Melik" or "Malik" in the 800s, surely would have received
his name as a result of influence by Khazaria rather than Arabia.
Shawn Potter
Francisco Antonio Doria
Melech, King, in Hebrew;
Baruch atah Adonai, Melech ha-Olam...
Blessed art Thou, oh Lord, King of the World...
chico
--- Shawn Potter <shp...@comcast.net> escreveu: >
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Jay
> If we wish to deal in probabilities,
> then it will be necessary to delve
> into Jewish naming customs, as noted
> by Pamela Fletcher Jones, The Jews
> of Britain, A Thousand Years of
> History. "Though, on the whole, boys
> had biblical names, most girls were
> given Norman-French names, even as
> late as the thirteenth century.
This is interesting, but it really does not provide any evidence for
Plantagenet ancestory. You might consider whether these recorded
names represent the only names used by the individuals whether they
had hebrew names as well as "norman-french" names and whether the
recorded names for the boys are the hebrew forms of the "biblical"
names or the french forms of those names. Also note that many
Christian French males and females of the period had "biblical" names.
They
> ranged from Alemandina to Swetecot
> and included such un-Jewish appellations
> as Almonda, Antera, Claricia, Columbina,
> Duzelina, Ermina, Fleur de Lys,
> Floricote, Glorietta, Iveta, Margalicia,
> Mirabel, Muriel, Paturella, Popelina,
> Sapphira, Sigge and many others equally
> exotic. There is even a record of
> Alfild, an Anglo-Saxon name, being given
> to some Jewish girls."
This indicates that the Jewish population of England was not entirely
insular in its culture and contact with the non-Jewish population, it
does not provide much in the way of genealogical pointers.
>
> Pamela Fletcher Jones finds evidence of
> one Christian lady who married into the
> Jewish faith.
What does this mean? Did she convert to Judaism? Was she married by
a Rabbi?
I also believe there is
> evidence in some names of those involved
> in the killing of the Jews at York,
> (that they were of Scandinavian
> descent), related apparently to those
> minting and moneymaking concerns outside
> the Jewish financial circles.
I do not understand this statement. They were killed because they had
scandinavian first names? Did they really have scandinavian first
names or were the names recorded for them names used for them by the
people of York because they found the names difficult to pronounce?
What does the phrase minting and moneymaking concerns outside the
Jewish financial circles mena? Was their coinage issued for exclusive
use within the Jewish population? Did some Jews have a concession for
minting coins for the use by the rulers of York?
>
> History shows that up to about the 1200
> time period, England was closely tied to
> France, and the continued use of Norman-
> French names by the female Jewish
> population shows more than a passing
> interest in their Norman Nobility and
> heritage.
Jews in the medieval period were highly dependent on nobles and
royalty for protection. These naming conventions might be tied to
these patron-client roles. It is an ambiguous clue at best and does
not give a good view of descent or family connection to Norman
nobility.
> Likewise, female Jewish naming patterns
> in England suggest a greater desire to
> remain part of the ruling secular
> organization,
Except Jews were not part of the ruling secular organization.
vidence indicates that the French
> tradition was paramount in England
> during the first three centuries after
> the Conquest; thus, suggesting the real
> continuation of the absorption of the
> Jewish population within the fabric of
> the English ruling class,
Except that the Jewish population regardless of their naming
convention were not absorbed into the fabric of the English ruling
class and were ultimately expelled from England for centuries.
My conclusions are: we know that from genetic traits among the Jews of
Europe that they have non-semitic ancestors as well as semitic
ancestors. Blue eyes, red and blond hair are not unknown among the
Jews of Europe or their descendents in the Americas and Israel. That
there are jewish ancestors among the Christian peoples of Europe is
also well known. I think it likely that this extended back into
medieval times as well and their is some documentation of this. The
question remains not whether or not the Plantagenets had jewish
ancestors or not, but whether they had any documented Jewish
ancestors. Without some compelling indicators as to specific
ancestors being of jewish descent or even rumors of jewish descent the
issue genealogically speaking is mute.
Jews in late medieval times were typically considered in general to be
stigmatized outsiders to normal society. In Spain where I know of
Christian spaniards having jewish ancestry, that was the result of
large scaled forced conversions. Spaniards without Jewish ancestry
married into families whose forefathers had been converted from Islam
and Judaism. Some of the families who had converted from Islam may
have centuries before been families who had converted to Islam during
the Moorish period. Such conversions no doubt occurred elsewhere in
Europe. The conversion of a Christian to Judaism on the other hand
would have been an apostasy that would have been criminal throughout
Christendom. So such conversions from Christian to Judaism given the
dire risks involved would, if they occurred, have been exceedingly
rare and not something one would want to document and make public so
that the inquisitors could sweep down on you. Jewish rabbis would of
course have been loathe to conduct such a conversion because it would
make them also liable to prosecution and their community targets for
attack. Given that medieval marriages were financial partnerships and
not love matches, only a rich jewish family would be worth the risk
marrying into and such a family would not want a pauper marrying into
their house, a no name who would not be noticed, nor would a person of
name and/or fortune be easily snuck into the synagogue. Thus it is
likely that most of the European ancestry of the Jews of Europe was
probably the result of illicit unions some voluntary and others the
product of rape.
Shawn Potter
Brook's web page at http://www.geocities.com/ayatoles/webmap1.jpg.
Although not identified on this map, Lubech is located about 85 miles
North of Kiev, on the East bank of the Dnieper River.
The following brief highlights of Rus-Khazar relations provide context
for considering the identity of Malk of Lubech (born say about 910),
maternal grandfather of St. Vladimir:
- Oleg, Grand Prince of Kiev, ruled c. 879-912.
- Benjamin, Kagan of Khazaria, ruled c. 880-900.
- Aaron, Kagan of Khazaria, ruled c. 900-920.
- Igor, Grand Prince of Kiev, ruled c. 912-945.
- Rus made an alliance with Khazaria c. 912, which lasted into the
930s. Rus had to pay tribute to Khazaria, but in return gained access
to Southern trade routes. During this period, people of Rus lived in
the Khazar capital of Atil and joined forces with Khazaria in battles
to the South and East of the Caspian Sea.
- Joseph, Kagan of Khazaria, ruled c. 920-960.
- Rus made an alliance with Byzantium c. 944.
- Svyatoslav, Grand Prince of Kiev, ruled c. 945-972.
- Rus attacked Khazaria c. 965, conquering the Khazar fortress of
Sarkel that same year and the Khazar capital of Atil c. 967.
- Yaropolk, Grand Prince of Kiev, (half-brother of St. Vladimir) ruled
c. 972-980.
- St. Vladimir, Grand Prince of Kiev, ruled c. 980-1014. He converted
to Christianity c. 988.
Shawn Potter
D. Spencer Hines
Lots of folks are running around with that as a surname.
Deus Vult.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of
in your philosophy." ---- William Shakespeare [1564-1616] The Tragedy of
Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Act I, Scene V, Line 166-167
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Shawn Potter" <shp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7004aa4b.02032...@posting.google.com...
Arthur Murata
friend whose surname happened to be "Malik" told me many
years ago that it not only means "king" but also "tall"
and, further, that there is a folk belief (my wording, not
his since he believed this himself) that leadership and
physical height are related, that kings are actually
demonstrably taller than other men. He happened to be quite
tall himself. Maybe the word is used on occasion just to
denote the physical characteristic? Best, Bronwen Edwards
Arthur Murata
regarding DNA studies in various populations, including the
Ashkenazim. And also some of the lectures from those long,
long minutes of sitting through yet another linguistics
lecture as an anthropology major. It does not surprise me
that men would have Biblical (Jewish) names and the women
would have more localized (French, English, etc.) names.
Several points: first, the differentiation between Yiddish
and Hebrew, mother-tongue (local influences, especially
German and Russian) and father-tongue (the language of
ceremony). One learned Yiddish at home and Hebrew in the
Temple. I do not know if Yiddish, as such, existed in the
medieval period, but it seems to be reasonable to expect
that Hebrew was not the language spoken at home in most of
the Jewish world - as is the case today. Then comparisons
of male & female DNA markers indicated that men seemed to
form a more direct line to Jewish forebears while the women
showed mitochondrial DNA that included the local
population. Since the comparison might be of siblings,
there is a question here that I am not equipped to answer
regarding the genetic inheritance of male & female siblings
since obviously one is not "more Jewish" than the other,
being children of the same parents. But local markers
turned up in the women more than in the men, if I
understood the postings on this correctly.
Finally, let us not forget the influence that was already
prevalent in the medieval Christian world of using Hebrew
names that, because they were associated with a saint, were
thought of as "Christian" names rather than Jewish - my own
middle name, for example. My first name is Welsh Gaelic, my
middle name is Hebrew for "Gift of God" but is very common
among non-Jews, and my last name is Saxon-derived Welsh (I
think). Best, Bronwen Elizabeth Edwards
David R. Teague
On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:47:52 -0800 (PST) Arthur Murata
<lostc...@yahoo.com> writes:
<snip>
My first name is Welsh Gaelic, my middle name is Hebrew for "Gift of God"
but is very common among non-Jews, and my last name is Saxon-derived
Welsh (I think). Best, Bronwen Elizabeth Edwards
<snip>
Actually, IIRC, "Elizabeth" is something like "oath of God" or "God of
the oath" or even (if the articles on "Elisheba" and "Elizabeth" in vol.
2 of THE INTERPRETER'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE are correct), "[my] God is
[good] fortune [ or 'fullness' ] " -- [in Hebrew, "Elisheva"]; "Matthew /
Matthias / Mattithiah" means "gift of the Lord". Also, Welsh and Gaelic
are two separate languages (although I have encountered references to
"Scottish / Scots Gaelic" and "Irish Gaelic").
David Teague
Shawn Potter
> What's a good translation for _Kagan_?
> Lots of folks are running around with that as a surname.
Interesting question. Here are two possibilities.
I'm sure someone has suggested that the surname Kagan stems from
Cohen. Sorry I can't cite a source for this suggestion.
On the other hand, the Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language
[Max Vasmer, "Etimologicheskiy Slovar' Russkogo Yazyka," (Moskva:
Progress, 1986; originally published in Heidelberg, 1950-1958), vol.
ii, p. 155] says:
kagan = prince, sovereign (among Khazars), ancient Russian kagan
(Metropolitan Illarion concerning Prince Vladimir). Ancient
Turko-Tatar title: ancient Turkish (kagan), old Uzbek (ka'an), Ugur
(kagan), Mongol (kagan), middle Greek (khaganos), old Latin
(chacanus--among Avars). Turkish title derived from Chinese "ke"
(great) + "kuan" (ruler).
Shawn Potter
Francisco Antonio Doria
Kagan should be the Russian version of Cohen, where
one gets H (aspirate) > G (velar plosive).
chico
--- Shawn Potter <shp...@comcast.net> escreveu: > "D.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Shawn Potter
> Kagan should be the Russian version of Cohen, where
> one gets H (aspirate) > G (velar plosive).
>
> chico
Yes! When Russian adopts a foreign word with an "h," the "h" becomes
"g." For example, hospitable > gospital'niy, etc. Great observation.
This should be weighed against the Chinese origin proposed by Vasmer.
Also, reference Vasmer's observation that Metropolitan Illarion called
Vladimir kagan. I suspect that the popular view concerning the reason
that Illarion called Vladimir kagan is that Vladimir ruled over the
territory that previously belonged to the kagan of Khazaria. However,
if Vladimir descended from Khazar nobility through his mother
(Malusha) and through her father (Malk of Lubech), then Vladimir's
title of kagan may have derived from a claim to the Khazar throne
through inheritence. To test this theory, one might examine whether,
between the fall of the Khazar capital in about 967 and the beginning
of the rule of Vladimir in about 980, other rulers of Rus claimed the
title of kagan. For example, did Vladimir's half-brother, Yaropolk
(who ruled c. 972-980, but was not a son of Malusha), also claim the
title of kagan?
Shawn Potter
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
by Solomon ben Isaac, or Rashi, in
the time period of interest, circa
1039 to 1105, who [mentions the
generally recognized equivalence
between Tsarfat and "the kingdom
that in vernacular language is
called France"; i.e., "The exiles
of this army, the sons of Israel,
will have the Canaanites' land as
far as Zarephthah."]
REFERENCE: The Jews of France,
A History from Antiquity to the
Present, by Esther Benhassa,
Copyright 1999; Princeton University
Press.
Esther further states that "The Jews
were well integrated in the non-Jewish
environment, which explains their use
of Latin and ignorance of Hebrew, the
language of the sacred Jewish texts",
during the "Carolingian renaissance".
Reality paints a different picture
than that given by your opinions
below. Emily Taitz writes in The
Jews of Medieval France, The
Community of Champagne, c 1994,
that a document from 992 told of
a "Jew named Sehok ben Esther
Israeli . . . converted to
Christianity, but when he traveled
he posed as a Jew in order to take
advantage of the Jewish communal
support offered to Jewish
travelers." . . .
Bishop Agobard of Lyons "complained
that Jewish women wore elaborate
robes that they received as gifts
from the nobles in the palace.{55}"
The Jews were well established in
France due to the fact that it was
one of the last areas that adopted
Christianity. Then, over time, there
were various forced baptisms, as well
as times when the Jews were powerful
enough to turn the tables and have
Jewish converts. The Jews had to come
to terms with the lesser nobility as
the central power of France crumbled.
There is absolutely no reason to believe
that the Jews of France would have ever
gone to England under William, or later,
if this intimate relationship were not
the case in fact.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet
Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in
a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition
[54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry,
[both editions]
-------------------------------------
Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet
Web Directory
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~vctinney/
"Free Coverage of the Genealogy World in
a Nutshell"
Who's Who in America, Millennium Edition
[54th] -
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry,
[both editions]
-------------------------------------
Shawn Potter
> Also, reference Vasmer's observation that Metropolitan Illarion called
> Vladimir kagan. I suspect that the popular view concerning the reason
> that Illarion called Vladimir kagan is that Vladimir ruled over the
> territory that previously belonged to the kagan of Khazaria. However,
> if Vladimir descended from Khazar nobility through his mother
> (Malusha) and through her father (Malk of Lubech), then Vladimir's
> title of kagan may have derived from a claim to the Khazar throne
> through inheritence. To test this theory, one might examine whether,
> between the fall of the Khazar capital in about 967 and the beginning
> of the rule of Vladimir in about 980, other rulers of Rus claimed the
> title of kagan. For example, did Vladimir's half-brother, Yaropolk
> (who ruled c. 972-980, but was not a son of Malusha), also claim the
> title of kagan?
>
> Shawn Potter
Below is the document (see http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/ilarion.html)
in which Metropolitan Illarion (Hilarion) refered to St. Vladimir as
kagan. I haven't found instances where Yaropolk was called kagan;
but, I'm not optimistic that this line of inquiry will be fruitful.
Illarion's use of the title, if the only example of St. Vladimir being
called kagan, doesn't establish a clear familial link between St.
Vladimir and the rulers of Khazaria.
By the way, Illarion's reliance on Hebrew Scriptures to explain
Christian theology illustrates a point made by Irma Khainman--see my
note on this thread 2002-03-27 21:10:08 PST. I'm not persuaded by
this point by Khainman, though, because Christian theology is
fundamentally linked to Hebrew Scriptures. Whether or not one branch
of the church chooses to emphasize this link may stem from innumerable
factors, all unrelated to whether or not members of that church
descend from Judeans.
Shawn Potter
----------
THE SERMON OF THE LAW OF MOSES GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD, AND OF THE GRACE
AND TRUTH BROUGHT TO EARTH BY JESUS CHRIST, by Metropolitan Illarion
(became metropolitan in 1051)
Blessed be the God of Israel, the God of Christianity who visited his
people and brought them salvation. He did not disdain his creation
which was for ages possessed by pagan darkness and by worship of the
devil, but he enlightened the Children of Abraham by giving them his
Law tablets, and later he saved all nations, sending them his Son, his
Gospel, and his baptism, and by giving them resurrection to eternal
life.
Law was the precursor and the servant of Grace and Truth. Grace and
Truth were the servants of the future life and immortal life. Law led
its people of the Old Testament toward the blessing of baptism, and
baptism led its sons to the life eternal. Moses and the prophets
announced the coming of Christ, but Christ and the Apostles announced
resurrection and the future age.
And what could the Law achieve? And what could Grace achieve? First
was the Law and then Grace. Hagar and Sarah are the pictures of Law
and Grace: Hagar was a handmaid and Sarah was free. First comes the
handmaiden and then the free woman may come. And he who reads (the
Bible) must understand this. Abraham, since his youth, had Sarah for
his wife and she was free and not a slave, and so God decided before
all ages to send his Son into the world that Grace might appear
through him (but sent him to man only later). But Sarah was restrained
from bearing children, since she was unfruitful. But she was not
actually unfruitful, but was chosen by divine Providence to bear in
her old age. The wisdom of God was not revealed to anyone, but
concealed from both angels and men. This wisdom was not shown, but was
concealed to be revealed at the end of the age.
It was Sarah who said unto Abraham: "Behold now, the Lord has
prevented me from bearing children; go in to my maid; it may be that I
shall obtain children by her."
And so the divine Grace (of the Son) announced to God, the Father:
"It is not yet my time for descending to the earth and to save the
world. Descend to Mount Sinai and give them the Law."
And, just as Abraham did as Sarah told him and went into Hagar, so
God, the Father, did as he was told by the divine Grace and descended
to Mount Sinai.
And Hagar, the handmaid, bore from Abraham a servant (not a truly free
man), and Abraham gave him the name Ishmael. And Moses brought from
Mount Sinai the Law and not the Grace, the shade and not the Truth.
When Abraham and Sarah were old, God appeared to Abraham by the oaks
of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
And he ran to meet him, and bowing low to the earth, he hastened into
the tent (to Sarah). And so, when the end of the age was nearing, God
appeared to humankind, descended to the earth, and blessed the womb of
the Virgin. And he was received by the Immaculate Virgin into the tent
of the flesh.
And the Virgin said to the angel:
"Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to
your word."
Once the Lord gave Sarah to bear a child, and she begat Isaac, and the
free woman begat a free son. And, when once more our Lord visited
humankind, he appeared unknown and hidden from men and then was born
Grace and Truth, but not the Law. And now it was the Son and not the
servant.
And the child grew up and was weaned; and Abraham made a great feast
on the day that Isaac was weaned. And when Christ was upon the earth
Grace did not reveal Itself and Christ was hiding himself until he was
thirty. And when he had grown and was weaned, then there, in the river
Jordan, Grace was revealed by a man. And our Lord invited many and
made a great feast and offered up the fatted calf of the age, His
beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and God then called to this feast many of
heaven and earth and they the angels and men into one (Church). This
blessed faith spreads now over the entire earth, and finally it
reached the Russian nation. And, whereas the lake of the Law dried up,
the fount of the Gospel became rich in water and overflowed upon our
land and reached us. And now, together with all Christians, we glorify
the Holy Trinity, while Judea remains silent.
THE EULOGY TO OUR KAGAN VLADIMIR.
Rome with voices panegyrical, praises Peter and Paul through whom they
came to believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God:
Asia, Ephesus and Patmos praise John the Theologian;
India praises Thomas;
Egypt, Mark.
All lands, cities and men honour and glorify their teacher who brought
them the Orthodox Faith. Thus let us, through our own strength, humbly
praise our teacher and mentor, the great Kagan of our land Vladimir,
the grandson of lgor of yore and son of glorious Sviatoslav, who ruled
in their day with courage and valour, becoming famed in many lands for
their victories and fortitude. And they did not reign in a poor and
unknown land, but in Russia, which is known and celebrated by all to
the ends of the earth.
A good attestation of your devotion, blessed one, is the Holy Church
of the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of God, which you build on the
orthodox foundation and where your valorous body now lays at rest and
awaits the archangel's trumpet. A good and certain attestation is your
son, George [Iaroslav's Christian name], whom God has made the heir to
your throne,
who does not destroy your laws, but confirms them,
who does not diminish works of piety, but extends them,
who does not undo, but strengthens,
who finishes that which you have left unfinished
even as Solomon finished the works begun by David;
who has built a great and holy temple to God's omniscience
that it may hallow your city;
who has embellished with all manner of things beautiful,
with gold and silver and precious stones
and with sacred vessels;
so that the church is a wonder to all surrounding lands
and so that the like cannot be found in all the northern land,
nor in the east nor the west;
who has given your famous city of Kiev the crown of glory,
who has turned your city and its people
to all-glorious Mother of God,
who is always ready to succour Christians
and for whom he has built a church with doors of gold
in the name of the first holy day of the Lord of the Annunciation,
that the veneration, which the archangel will offer to the Virgin,
may also be upon this city.
To her he speaks, saying:
"Rejoice, Blessed One, the Lord is with you!"
And to the city he speaks, saying:
"Rejoice, faithful city, the Lord is with you!"
Arise from your grave, venerated prince,
Arise and shake off your sleep.
You are not dead,
but only sleep until the day of resurrection of all.
Arise! You are not dead,
for it is not right that you should die,
for you have believed in Christ, the Sustainer of the whole world.
Shake off your deep sleep
and lift up your eyes
that you might see what honour the Lord has granted you,
and you still live upon this earth,
unforgotten through your sons.
Arise! Behold your child George,
Look upon your beloved one,
whom God has brought forth from your loins.
Behold him embellishing the throne of your land.
Rejoice and be of good cheer!
Behold the pious wife of your son, Irina.
Behold your grandchildren
and your great-grandchildren.
Behold how they live and how they are cared for by God.
Behold how they preserve devotion in your tradition,
how they partake of the Sacraments of the Holy Church,
how they glorify Christ,
how they venerate before his Holy Name.
Behold your city radiant with grandeur.
Behold your blossoming churches,
Behold Christianity flourishing.
Behold your city gleaming,
adorned with holy icons and
fragrant with thyme,
praising God and filling the air with sacred songs.
And beholding all this, rejoice and be of good cheer, and praise the
Lord, the Creator of all which you have seen.
Source: Pamiatniki dukhovnoi literatury vremeni velikogo kniazia
Iaroslava I-ogo, Moscow, 1844.
Shawn Potter
>
> Below is the document (see http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/ilarion.html)
> in which Metropolitan Illarion (Hilarion) refered to St. Vladimir as
> kagan. I haven't found instances where Yaropolk was called kagan;
> but, I'm not optimistic that this line of inquiry will be fruitful.
> Illarion's use of the title, if the only example of St. Vladimir being
> called kagan, doesn't establish a clear familial link between St.
> Vladimir and the rulers of Khazaria.
> ...
>
Kevin Brook's web page has a link to a Russian language note
http://cde.sever.ru/cde/htmls/kursi/history/lesson02/less02b/term/022term01.htm
concerning use of the word "kagan." Here is what it says:
kagan--title of the head of state of Turkish peoples (Avars,
Pechenegs, Khazars, and others). From the end of the 8th to the
beginning of the 9th centuries, it was used by Eastern Slavs along
with the title of prince. This circumstance had great significance.
Firstly, the title "kagan" was used by the ruler of Khazaria--the
government founded in the 7th century in the region of the lower Volga
and Don by Turkish nomads--Khazars. Part of the Eastern Slavs
(Polyans, Severyans, Radimiches, Vyatiches) were forced to pay tribute
to the kagan. Adoption of the title kagan by the prince of Kiev
symbolized the independence of the new goverment of Rus from Khazaria.
Secondly, it underlined the superiority of the prince of Kiev over
the princes of other powerful Slav communities, which at that time
bore the title "shining prince" and "great prince" (these titles were
reserved together with the title of kagan for the prince of Kiev in
the 9th and first part of the 10th centuries). In the 13th century
the title "kagan" is found among the Mongols.
Shawn Potter
Shawn Potter
name of Mal'k (or Malek) of Lubech--maternal grandfather of St.
Vladimir. Some scholars disagree with Arthur Koestler's conclusions
in "The Thirteenth Tribe," but on p. 57 he provides an interesting
list from Hudud al Alam's "Regions of the World," (Leningrad: 1930,
written about 982), p. 451. The list contains titles of Khazar rulers
according to various early sources. Khazaria had dual rulers--perhaps
analagous to countries with a king and a prime minister (but in
Khazaria the prime minister was described as a military leader). In
this list, the first column provides the title of the Khazar king and
the second column provides the title of the Khazar military leader.
Constantine Porphyrogenitus Khaqan Bek
Ibn Rusta Khazar Khaqan Aysha
Masudi Khaqan Malik
Istakhri Malik Khazar Khaqan Khazar (?)
Ibn Hawkal Khaqan Khazar Malik Khazar or Bek
Gardezi Khazar Khaqan Abshad
It is interesting that multiple early sources state that
Malik--essentially the same word as the name of St. Vladimir's
maternal grandfather--was the title of the Khazar military leader.
Shawn Potter
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> Some scholars disagree with Arthur Koestler's conclusions
> in "The Thirteenth Tribe,
Only some?
> It is interesting that multiple early sources state that
> Malik--essentially the same word as the name of St. Vladimir's
> maternal grandfather--was the title of the Khazar military leader.
First, there is no reason to suggest that arabian title Malik and
russian name Mal'k[o] are "essentually the same word". Similarity
of the two words isn't enough. Secondly, Malik is an Arab title,
roughly equivalent to european "king". It is not surprising that
various arab authors apply that title to rulers of Khazaria (and
lots of other places as well). But that doesn't mean that Khazars
themself used that title. They didn't speak Arabic.
Andrew
Francisco Antonio Doria
I was a close friend of Professor Marcos Margulies,
born in Bessarabia and deceased in Brazil in 1983,
former Sobibor inmate.
Marcos was a scion of the old Margolioth family,
traditionally supposed to be descended from Rashi; he
was a representative in Brazil of the American Jewish
Committee and of _Commentary _ (He actually edited
_Comentário_, a Brazilian version of _Commentary_, to
which I used to contribute.) His son is a well known
Conservative Rabbi in Rio today. This is just an
introduction.
Marcos' PhD thesis (sorry, only available in
Portuguese) deals precisely with the deep influence of
Jewish culture upon the Khazars and consequences
therein, including the Koestler thesis (Koestler's
book appeared later). Marcos was a brilliant scholar,
multilingual and highly erudite. While I cannot vouch
for the correctness of everything that he wrote, I
have long learned to rely on his scholarship.
chico
--- "Andrew S. Kalinkin" <kali...@cityline.ru>
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Shawn Potter
> Shawn Potter wrote:
>
> > It is interesting that multiple early sources state that
> > Malik--essentially the same word as the name of St. Vladimir's
> > maternal grandfather--was the title of the Khazar military leader.
>
> First, there is no reason to suggest that arabian title Malik and
> russian name Mal'k[o] are "essentually the same word". Similarity
> of the two words isn't enough.
>
Your best hope of undermining this theory is to propose an alternative
and equally persuasive meaning and origin for the name of Vladimir's
maternal grandfather, Mal'k (or Malek) of Lubech. Please cite your
sources--I truly am interested.
Shawn Potter
Nathaniel Taylor
shp...@comcast.net (Shawn Potter) wrote:
This is the wrong way round; we see this fallacious challenge here often
with genealogical filiations as well. The burden of proof is on the person
who would propose the equivalence of Malek with a similar Hebrew or Arab
word. No other alternative needs to be available to doubt it. In
genealogical ideas, this is the same as arguing that a given proposed
filiation cannot be 'undermined' unless another candidate is found. The
filiation--or etymology--'unknown', albeit unglamorous, has much more
persuasive power.
Nat Taylor
D. Spencer Hines
Now, we have the word on high from Mother Harvard herself.
The reason, the root cause, why pogues and poguettes propose these
fanciful, ludicrous, fallacious "challenges" is because they are
uneducated and miseducated and have had their young skulls filled with
mush.
Why?
Because the Criminal Educational Conspiracy [CEC] has been doing a
terrible job for the past 30-40 years and the "educators" have created
and nurtured a class of millions of cretins ---- many of whom populate
the landscape of these newsgroups ---- as well as other venues
throughout the land.
The chickens are coming home to roost...
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Dies Irae.
Deus Vult.
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
"Thrice they tried to pile Ossa on Pelion, yes, and roll up leafy
Olympus upon Ossa; thrice the Father of Heaven split the mountains apart
with his thunderbolt." Publius Vergilius Maro [Virgil] (70-19 B.C.),
Georgics, I, l. 281.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nta...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:ntaylor-0104...@mid-tgn-npv-vty141.as.wcom.net...