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Jewish origins for Spanish noble families
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Leo van de Pas
Dec 22, 2013, 7:09:48 AM12/22/13
to Gen-Med
Jose Luis Fernandez Blanco reminded me of a fascinating story.
In 1560 Cardinal Francisco Mendoza y Bobadilla was so upset by the refusal
of two military orders to accept two of his relatives because of their
Jewish origins, that he wrote a memo to King Philip II 'Tizon de la Nobleza
de Espana' (Blot on the Spanish Nobility). The purpose of this memo was to
prove that the entire Spanish nobility had Jewish ancestry. Apparently the
'Tizon' was never disproved and in 1992 it was republished by the Heraldico
de Espana y de las Indias.
I expect it was published in Spanish only, but I wonder how easy was it to
get hold of a copy?
Cardinal Mendoza wrote about Inez Perez Esteves that she was of low caste,
daughter of a shoemaker, who was a convert of either Jewish or Moorish
origin, though he admitted that in her case he was not sure.
I think this Cardinal was very courageous to say all these things to King
Philip II, and I wonder what happened to him afterwards.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
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In 1560 Cardinal Francisco Mendoza y Bobadilla was so upset by the refusal
of two military orders to accept two of his relatives because of their
Jewish origins, that he wrote a memo to King Philip II 'Tizon de la Nobleza
de Espana' (Blot on the Spanish Nobility). The purpose of this memo was to
prove that the entire Spanish nobility had Jewish ancestry. Apparently the
'Tizon' was never disproved and in 1992 it was republished by the Heraldico
de Espana y de las Indias.
I expect it was published in Spanish only, but I wonder how easy was it to
get hold of a copy?
Cardinal Mendoza wrote about Inez Perez Esteves that she was of low caste,
daughter of a shoemaker, who was a convert of either Jewish or Moorish
origin, though he admitted that in her case he was not sure.
I think this Cardinal was very courageous to say all these things to King
Philip II, and I wonder what happened to him afterwards.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
---
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taf
Dec 22, 2013, 4:00:21 PM12/22/13
to gen-medieval
On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:09:48 AM UTC-8, Leo van de Pas wrote:
>
> In 1560 Cardinal Francisco Mendoza y Bobadilla was so upset by the refusal
> of two military orders to accept two of his relatives because of their
> Jewish origins, that he wrote a memo to King Philip II 'Tizon de la
Nobleza
> de Espana' (Blot on the Spanish Nobility). The purpose of this memo was to
> prove that the entire Spanish nobility had Jewish ancestry. Apparently the
> 'Tizon' was never disproved and in 1992 it was republished by the
Heraldico
> de Espana y de las Indias.
>
> I expect it was published in Spanish only, but I wonder how easy was it to
> get hold of a copy?
This easy:
>
> In 1560 Cardinal Francisco Mendoza y Bobadilla was so upset by the refusal
> of two military orders to accept two of his relatives because of their
> Jewish origins, that he wrote a memo to King Philip II 'Tizon de la
Nobleza
> de Espana' (Blot on the Spanish Nobility). The purpose of this memo was to
> prove that the entire Spanish nobility had Jewish ancestry. Apparently the
> 'Tizon' was never disproved and in 1992 it was republished by the
Heraldico
> de Espana y de las Indias.
>
> I expect it was published in Spanish only, but I wonder how easy was it to
> get hold of a copy?
http://www.hispanista.org/libros/alibros/15/lb15.pdf
As a source, this is as reliable as anything written hundreds of years
after the fact by a genealogical dilettante with an ax to grind.
taf
Graham Milne
Dec 22, 2013, 5:43:23 PM12/22/13
to
'a genealogical dilettante with an ax to grind'
You? Tell us ONE statement that is incorrect - citing original documents to prove your point - otherwise we will dismiss you as a genealogical dilettante with an axe to grind.
You? Tell us ONE statement that is incorrect - citing original documents to prove your point - otherwise we will dismiss you as a genealogical dilettante with an axe to grind.
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Dec 23, 2013, 5:50:49 PM12/23/13
to
Dear Leo,
Certainly nothing happened to him. He was enraged that his nephew--the II Count of Chinchón's [a paternal grandson of the 1st marquis de Moya, whom somebody in this forum seems to know very well] paperwork had been observed by the Tribunal de Órdenes alleging certain dificulties regarding his "Limpieza de Sangre." The Cardinal took it as an offense on his whole family (perhaps one of the most important families in Spain). Happy ending, the nephew not only was accepted but promoted many times over as nothing could be ever be proven. And the Cardinal was also promoted to Archbishop of Valencia.
Remember that Philip II used to say that he could govern / manage / handle his whole empire with 100 priests much better than with all his armies. Of course the "Tizón" became, for a while, a nightmare for other families and the uttermost happines of the Inquisition. However, as D. Francisco had just based everything on hearsay, nothing, except vague suspicions came out of his untimely work, which is now used by certain people as if it were a Holy Revelation. Go figure!
Cheers and Seasons Greetings!
José Luis.
Certainly nothing happened to him. He was enraged that his nephew--the II Count of Chinchón's [a paternal grandson of the 1st marquis de Moya, whom somebody in this forum seems to know very well] paperwork had been observed by the Tribunal de Órdenes alleging certain dificulties regarding his "Limpieza de Sangre." The Cardinal took it as an offense on his whole family (perhaps one of the most important families in Spain). Happy ending, the nephew not only was accepted but promoted many times over as nothing could be ever be proven. And the Cardinal was also promoted to Archbishop of Valencia.
Remember that Philip II used to say that he could govern / manage / handle his whole empire with 100 priests much better than with all his armies. Of course the "Tizón" became, for a while, a nightmare for other families and the uttermost happines of the Inquisition. However, as D. Francisco had just based everything on hearsay, nothing, except vague suspicions came out of his untimely work, which is now used by certain people as if it were a Holy Revelation. Go figure!
Cheers and Seasons Greetings!
José Luis.
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Dec 23, 2013, 6:08:48 PM12/23/13
to
Rushing again on this topic and before somebody takes issue with the Tizón. The problem WAS NOT with the Cabrera family, but with the paternal-paternal grandmother of the 1st marchioness of Moya, Da. Beatriz Fernández de Bobadilla (who was an ancestress of the Cardinal too), Isabel Díaz de Sevilla [who was not married to Diego Fernández de Medina, III Lord of Bobadilla), whose family DID have converso origins. The thing was that by the time the auditors from the Tribunal de Órdenes got to see the "sambenitos" (the mandatory clothes conversos who continued practicing Judaism in private had to wear for life and then were exposed at the parochial church where they had lived) in Bobadilla del Campo, they had disappeared, and no witness remembered anything. However, in the family, it was knwown that she was a converted Jew.
But nothing to do with the Cabreras, PLEASE!
Cheers,
J.L.
But nothing to do with the Cabreras, PLEASE!
Cheers,
J.L.
Graham Milne
Dec 26, 2013, 1:29:09 PM12/26/13
to
'But nothing to do with the Cabreras, PLEASE!'
Andrés de Cabrera was referred to as 'el converso Andrés Cabrera' in the testament of Queen Isabella of Castile (Luis Suárez Fernández, 'Análisis del Testamento de Isabel la Católica', p. 86, 'Cuadernos de Historia Moderna', No. 13, Madrid, 1992).
Andrés de Cabrera was referred to as 'el converso Andrés Cabrera' in the testament of Queen Isabella of Castile (Luis Suárez Fernández, 'Análisis del Testamento de Isabel la Católica', p. 86, 'Cuadernos de Historia Moderna', No. 13, Madrid, 1992).
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Dec 26, 2013, 4:13:06 PM12/26/13
to
I haven't read Luis Suárez Fernández's "Análisis" but, if you wish, you could read the testament and its codicil online and analyse it by yourself. I have just read it again. I have a copy of it, besides the one that is online...needless to say they are both the same.
Please, DO tell me where it is written the word "converso" referring to any person mentioned in these documents. Apart from this, D. Andrés de Cabrera and his wife, who were present at the deathbed of Isabel, are mentioned before any other member of the nobility, relating the granting of the city of Moya to them and Isabel's right to do so.
As I haven't read Suárez Fernández's article, I don't know whether that is a personal interpretation or otherwise. Isabel would never use the term "converso" due to the aversion she felt for them.
If you wish to read it by yourself, it is available at (photocopy of original and transcription):
http://www.delsolmedina.com/TestamentoTexto-0.htm
You may infer whatever you wish to infer from the wording contained therein. (D. Andrés de Cabrera and Dª Beatriz de Bovadilla [sic] are mentioned for the first time on fº 2v. He is also mentioned later on. Somehow I fail to see the word "converso" anywhere...)
J.L.
Please, DO tell me where it is written the word "converso" referring to any person mentioned in these documents. Apart from this, D. Andrés de Cabrera and his wife, who were present at the deathbed of Isabel, are mentioned before any other member of the nobility, relating the granting of the city of Moya to them and Isabel's right to do so.
As I haven't read Suárez Fernández's article, I don't know whether that is a personal interpretation or otherwise. Isabel would never use the term "converso" due to the aversion she felt for them.
If you wish to read it by yourself, it is available at (photocopy of original and transcription):
http://www.delsolmedina.com/TestamentoTexto-0.htm
You may infer whatever you wish to infer from the wording contained therein. (D. Andrés de Cabrera and Dª Beatriz de Bovadilla [sic] are mentioned for the first time on fº 2v. He is also mentioned later on. Somehow I fail to see the word "converso" anywhere...)
J.L.
michelle...@hotmail.com
Jun 8, 2017, 8:54:17 PM6/8/17
to
Hello,
I stumbled upon this group by accident when searching for my Fernandez ancestors, and some of you seem educated in the history of Spanish nobility. I figure maybe some of you can help me with direction of where to go.
My grandfather comes from Panama where his father was an ambassador and I believe secretary of the interior. He always told me his ancestors were sent to Panama to help govern and his ancestors before that were sent to Colombia before that by the Queen of Spain to help govern. He comes from a noble family of Spain. My grandfather grew up going to the presidents palace in Panama, being told that Arnulfo Arias Madrid was a relative (my grandfather and father are named after him). When he was taken by his father to Costa Rica for months for "vacation" all the dignitaries and president would come to their home to greet and welcome them. In 1960, his father travelled to Spain to locate the family coat of arms but died in mysterious circumstances before he could present it to our family. My grandfather, Arnulfo Fernandez (b. 1929 Panama) is son of Miguel Angel Fernandez (b. 1898 Colombia/Panama), son of Pedro Fernández Montealegre (b. 1859, costa rica), son of Domingo Evaristo Fernández (I'm 99% sure). I have no way of knowing the Fernández line past that. I can't find documentation. Is there a place that all the noble coat of arms are kept and who they were awarded to? I believe if I can find all the Fernández men who were awarded family crests, then I can eventually determine which is my relative.
p.s. My grandfather's mother, who was a Pretto-Seixas, was 100% Jewish, her lines being traced for more than 1,000 years. We believe the Fernández line is also Jewish.
Thank you,
-Michelle Fernandez/Forester
I stumbled upon this group by accident when searching for my Fernandez ancestors, and some of you seem educated in the history of Spanish nobility. I figure maybe some of you can help me with direction of where to go.
My grandfather comes from Panama where his father was an ambassador and I believe secretary of the interior. He always told me his ancestors were sent to Panama to help govern and his ancestors before that were sent to Colombia before that by the Queen of Spain to help govern. He comes from a noble family of Spain. My grandfather grew up going to the presidents palace in Panama, being told that Arnulfo Arias Madrid was a relative (my grandfather and father are named after him). When he was taken by his father to Costa Rica for months for "vacation" all the dignitaries and president would come to their home to greet and welcome them. In 1960, his father travelled to Spain to locate the family coat of arms but died in mysterious circumstances before he could present it to our family. My grandfather, Arnulfo Fernandez (b. 1929 Panama) is son of Miguel Angel Fernandez (b. 1898 Colombia/Panama), son of Pedro Fernández Montealegre (b. 1859, costa rica), son of Domingo Evaristo Fernández (I'm 99% sure). I have no way of knowing the Fernández line past that. I can't find documentation. Is there a place that all the noble coat of arms are kept and who they were awarded to? I believe if I can find all the Fernández men who were awarded family crests, then I can eventually determine which is my relative.
p.s. My grandfather's mother, who was a Pretto-Seixas, was 100% Jewish, her lines being traced for more than 1,000 years. We believe the Fernández line is also Jewish.
Thank you,
-Michelle Fernandez/Forester
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Jun 9, 2017, 1:29:51 PM6/9/17
to
J.L. Fernandez Blanco
Jun 9, 2017, 1:47:39 PM6/9/17
to
On Thursday, June 8, 2017 at 9:54:17 PM UTC-3, michelle...@hotmail.com wrote:
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