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Margaret de Guines, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster [died 1326]
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celticp...@gmail.com
Jun 12, 2020, 7:46:51 PM6/12/20
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Dear Newsgroup ~
The recent discussion regarding the apparent kinship between Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster [died 1326], and King Edward I and his wife, Eleanor of Castile, and their son, King Edward II, revolves around the issue of whether Richard de Burgh could have been a kinsman to the royal family by birth, as opposed to kinsman by marriage.
Here are some historic references to kinship between Earl Richard and the English royal family:
1. Cal. of Docs. rel. Ireland 2 (1877): 487 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled “cousin” by Queen Eleanor of Castile in 1283).
2. Cal. of Chancery Warrants (1927): 261 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled “king’s cousin” by King Edward I of England).
3. Johnstone, Letters of Edward Prince of Wales (1931): 17–18 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled “cher cosin le Counte de Vluester [Ulster]” by Edward, Prince of Wales [afterwards King Edward II]) [see also Prestwich et al. Procs. of the Durham Conf. 2001 (13th Cent. England 8) (2003): 64].
In this case, there is no known previous kinship between the Burgh family and the English royal family, although the Burgh family occurs regularly in crown records in the century previous to Sir Richard de Burgh's birth. Nor is there any apparent near kinship between the family of Sir Richard de Burgh's mother, Aveline Fitz John, and the English royal family.
This supposes then that Sir Richard de Burgh's kinship to the English royal family came by way of marriage, not birth.
Jour. of Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland Ser. 6 11 1921): 72 identifies Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, as “daughter of John de Burgh of Lanvallay, and great-grand-daughter of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent.” This is followed by Duffy et al., Medieval Ireland: An Encyclopedia (2005): 93–95, who states that Richard de Burgh “married a distant relative, Margaret, the great-granddaughter of Hubert de Burgh” [Earl of Kent]).
Unfortunately there is no evidence that such a person as this particular Margaret ever existed.
Rather, an article by the historian, John Carmi Parsons, in Genealogists’ Magazine 20 (1982): 335–340 identifies Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh, as a possible daughter of Arnoul III, Count of Guines, by his wife, Alice de Coucy. Parsons states that “Comte Arnoul III of Guines had … a daughter who was married to a mysterious Irish lord”, he citing Anselme, Hist. de la Maison Royale de France 8 (1733): 543 ff; Chesnaye-Desbois, Dict. de la Noblesse 8 (1866): cols. 40–41, and 4, cols. 129–131. Parsons provides additional evidence which showed that Queen Eleanor of Castile was directly involved with what appeared to be a marriage settlement of lands of young Richard and his wife, Margaret, right about the time of their marriage. This settlement by the Queen was similar in nature to other known settlements made by Queen Eleanor of Castile on behalf of her female Continental relatives when they married into English nobility.
The evidence that Count Arnoul III of Guines had such a daughter married to an Irish lord is found in something entitled "Lignages de Coucy" written in 1303, evidently at the command of Count Arnoul's own son, Enguerrand de Guines, seigneur de Coucy. A transcript of this account is published in Du Chesne, Histoire Généalogique des Maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand, et de Coucy, et de Quelques Autres Familles Illustres (1631). It can be found in Preuves, pg. 302 of this work at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=8wx-yCoHAIsC&pg=RA1-PA302
Briefly, the pertinent part of this account reads as follows:
"Encores ot li Cuens Arnoul de Guignes trois filles, dont l'vne fut mariée en Yllande ... "
Based on his research, Mr. Parsons made the preliminary identification of this Guines daughter as being the same person as Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster. After giving the matter considerable thought, I've decided that Mr. Parsons is correct in his identification.
The reason for my confidence in Mr. Parsons' conclusion is that this particular Guines daughter would have been near related to Queen Eleanor of Castile by way of their common descent from the Fiennes family. This girl would also have been near related to both King Edward I and Queen Eleanor of Castile by way of their common descent from the French royal family. Moreover, this Guines girl would have been first cousin to Alexander III, King of Scots, their mothers being Coucy sisters. Assuming as did Mr. Parsons that Queen Eleanor had a hand in the marriage of Sir Richard de Burgh, an important Irish lord, and his wife, Margaret, such a marriage for the Guines girl would have been very much in keeping with marriages arranged for women of similar background to a husbands of high station in England.
As stated above, the "Lignages de Coucy" was written in 1303, at the command of Count Arnoul's own son, Enguerrand de Guines, seigneur de Coucy. Sir Enguerrand (or Ingram) de Guines himself was married to Christian de Lindsay, a wealthy Scottish and English heiress. He was frequently in England and Scotland, although I presume he resided principally in Coucy his chief land holding. In 1301, for example, his kinsman, Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex (another Fiennes relative), requested a protection from King Edward I for Sir Yngerem de Gynes, who was with him in Scotland in the king’s service.
Sir Enguerrand de Guines' kinship to both the English and Scottish royal families is evidenced by contemporary records:
1. Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 6 (1845): 99 (Ingram de Givis [Guines] styled “relative” by King Alexander III in letter dated 1285).
2. Bain, Cal. Docs. Rel. Scotland 2 (1884): 66, 72 (Ingeram de Ginis, Knt., styled “cousin” by Alexander III, King of Scots, in letter to King Edward I dated 1283).
3. Index to Ancient Corr. of the Chancery & Exchequer 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supp. Ser. 15) (1902): 393 & 518 (Ingram de Guines styled “kinsman” by Queen Eleanor of Castile).
That King Edward I took a personal interest in the marriage of Sir Enguerrand de Guines is proven by a letter dated circa 1283, in which King Edward I requested that King Alexander III, King of Scots, give favor for Ingram de Gynes in the settlement of title to lands formerly in the possession of William de Lindsay [Enguerrand's wife's father].
That Enguerrand de Guines' wife, Christian de Lindsay, was of similar background as the Guines family is attested by the fact that her maternal uncle was John de Balliol, King of Scots, who died in 1314. And her paternal uncle was Sir Gilbert de Lindsay, of Molesworth, Huntingdonshire, the little known second husband of Alice de Lusignan (or de la Marche), niece of King Henry III of England.
As for evidence that individuals related solely by marriage were in fact styled kinsfolk by the English crown in this time period, I can offer three such examples of individuals similar to Sir Richard de Burgh who were addressed as kin as the basis of their marriage, not birth:
1. Cal. Inq. Misc. 1 (1916): 86 (Ela [Longespée], patroness of the house of Lacock, styled the “king’s kinswoman” in 1259). Ela was the wife of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury, half-brother of King John.
2. Prestwich, Docs. Ill. the Crisis of 1297–98 in England (Camden Soc. 4th Ser. 24) (1980): 66–67 (letter of King Edward I to his dear aunt [“chiere taunte”] Joan [de Munchensy], Countess of Pembroke). Countess Joan was the widow of King Edward I's half-uncle, William de Valence.
3. Cal. of Chancery Warrants (1927): 519 & 529 (Hugh le Despenser styled “king’s nephew”). Hugh's wife was Eleanor de Clare, niece of King Edward II.
Although they are rare, surely other examples of kinship based on marriage could be cited. Assuming that Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, was in fact the Guines girl, this identification would make Margaret related to both King Edward I and Queen Eleanor of Castile. This fits the known evidence. The kinship to the Queen includes a second near kinship through the Fiennes family. The Fiennes connection in particular explains the Queen's involvement in a marriage settlement on Earl Richard and Margaret. We see a similar pattern of involvement of the English royal family with Margaret's brother, Sir Enguerrand de Guines.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
The recent discussion regarding the apparent kinship between Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster [died 1326], and King Edward I and his wife, Eleanor of Castile, and their son, King Edward II, revolves around the issue of whether Richard de Burgh could have been a kinsman to the royal family by birth, as opposed to kinsman by marriage.
Here are some historic references to kinship between Earl Richard and the English royal family:
1. Cal. of Docs. rel. Ireland 2 (1877): 487 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled “cousin” by Queen Eleanor of Castile in 1283).
2. Cal. of Chancery Warrants (1927): 261 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled “king’s cousin” by King Edward I of England).
3. Johnstone, Letters of Edward Prince of Wales (1931): 17–18 (Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, styled “cher cosin le Counte de Vluester [Ulster]” by Edward, Prince of Wales [afterwards King Edward II]) [see also Prestwich et al. Procs. of the Durham Conf. 2001 (13th Cent. England 8) (2003): 64].
In this case, there is no known previous kinship between the Burgh family and the English royal family, although the Burgh family occurs regularly in crown records in the century previous to Sir Richard de Burgh's birth. Nor is there any apparent near kinship between the family of Sir Richard de Burgh's mother, Aveline Fitz John, and the English royal family.
This supposes then that Sir Richard de Burgh's kinship to the English royal family came by way of marriage, not birth.
Jour. of Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland Ser. 6 11 1921): 72 identifies Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, as “daughter of John de Burgh of Lanvallay, and great-grand-daughter of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent.” This is followed by Duffy et al., Medieval Ireland: An Encyclopedia (2005): 93–95, who states that Richard de Burgh “married a distant relative, Margaret, the great-granddaughter of Hubert de Burgh” [Earl of Kent]).
Unfortunately there is no evidence that such a person as this particular Margaret ever existed.
Rather, an article by the historian, John Carmi Parsons, in Genealogists’ Magazine 20 (1982): 335–340 identifies Margaret, wife of Richard de Burgh, as a possible daughter of Arnoul III, Count of Guines, by his wife, Alice de Coucy. Parsons states that “Comte Arnoul III of Guines had … a daughter who was married to a mysterious Irish lord”, he citing Anselme, Hist. de la Maison Royale de France 8 (1733): 543 ff; Chesnaye-Desbois, Dict. de la Noblesse 8 (1866): cols. 40–41, and 4, cols. 129–131. Parsons provides additional evidence which showed that Queen Eleanor of Castile was directly involved with what appeared to be a marriage settlement of lands of young Richard and his wife, Margaret, right about the time of their marriage. This settlement by the Queen was similar in nature to other known settlements made by Queen Eleanor of Castile on behalf of her female Continental relatives when they married into English nobility.
The evidence that Count Arnoul III of Guines had such a daughter married to an Irish lord is found in something entitled "Lignages de Coucy" written in 1303, evidently at the command of Count Arnoul's own son, Enguerrand de Guines, seigneur de Coucy. A transcript of this account is published in Du Chesne, Histoire Généalogique des Maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand, et de Coucy, et de Quelques Autres Familles Illustres (1631). It can be found in Preuves, pg. 302 of this work at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=8wx-yCoHAIsC&pg=RA1-PA302
Briefly, the pertinent part of this account reads as follows:
"Encores ot li Cuens Arnoul de Guignes trois filles, dont l'vne fut mariée en Yllande ... "
Based on his research, Mr. Parsons made the preliminary identification of this Guines daughter as being the same person as Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster. After giving the matter considerable thought, I've decided that Mr. Parsons is correct in his identification.
The reason for my confidence in Mr. Parsons' conclusion is that this particular Guines daughter would have been near related to Queen Eleanor of Castile by way of their common descent from the Fiennes family. This girl would also have been near related to both King Edward I and Queen Eleanor of Castile by way of their common descent from the French royal family. Moreover, this Guines girl would have been first cousin to Alexander III, King of Scots, their mothers being Coucy sisters. Assuming as did Mr. Parsons that Queen Eleanor had a hand in the marriage of Sir Richard de Burgh, an important Irish lord, and his wife, Margaret, such a marriage for the Guines girl would have been very much in keeping with marriages arranged for women of similar background to a husbands of high station in England.
As stated above, the "Lignages de Coucy" was written in 1303, at the command of Count Arnoul's own son, Enguerrand de Guines, seigneur de Coucy. Sir Enguerrand (or Ingram) de Guines himself was married to Christian de Lindsay, a wealthy Scottish and English heiress. He was frequently in England and Scotland, although I presume he resided principally in Coucy his chief land holding. In 1301, for example, his kinsman, Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex (another Fiennes relative), requested a protection from King Edward I for Sir Yngerem de Gynes, who was with him in Scotland in the king’s service.
Sir Enguerrand de Guines' kinship to both the English and Scottish royal families is evidenced by contemporary records:
1. Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 6 (1845): 99 (Ingram de Givis [Guines] styled “relative” by King Alexander III in letter dated 1285).
2. Bain, Cal. Docs. Rel. Scotland 2 (1884): 66, 72 (Ingeram de Ginis, Knt., styled “cousin” by Alexander III, King of Scots, in letter to King Edward I dated 1283).
3. Index to Ancient Corr. of the Chancery & Exchequer 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supp. Ser. 15) (1902): 393 & 518 (Ingram de Guines styled “kinsman” by Queen Eleanor of Castile).
That King Edward I took a personal interest in the marriage of Sir Enguerrand de Guines is proven by a letter dated circa 1283, in which King Edward I requested that King Alexander III, King of Scots, give favor for Ingram de Gynes in the settlement of title to lands formerly in the possession of William de Lindsay [Enguerrand's wife's father].
That Enguerrand de Guines' wife, Christian de Lindsay, was of similar background as the Guines family is attested by the fact that her maternal uncle was John de Balliol, King of Scots, who died in 1314. And her paternal uncle was Sir Gilbert de Lindsay, of Molesworth, Huntingdonshire, the little known second husband of Alice de Lusignan (or de la Marche), niece of King Henry III of England.
As for evidence that individuals related solely by marriage were in fact styled kinsfolk by the English crown in this time period, I can offer three such examples of individuals similar to Sir Richard de Burgh who were addressed as kin as the basis of their marriage, not birth:
1. Cal. Inq. Misc. 1 (1916): 86 (Ela [Longespée], patroness of the house of Lacock, styled the “king’s kinswoman” in 1259). Ela was the wife of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury, half-brother of King John.
2. Prestwich, Docs. Ill. the Crisis of 1297–98 in England (Camden Soc. 4th Ser. 24) (1980): 66–67 (letter of King Edward I to his dear aunt [“chiere taunte”] Joan [de Munchensy], Countess of Pembroke). Countess Joan was the widow of King Edward I's half-uncle, William de Valence.
3. Cal. of Chancery Warrants (1927): 519 & 529 (Hugh le Despenser styled “king’s nephew”). Hugh's wife was Eleanor de Clare, niece of King Edward II.
Although they are rare, surely other examples of kinship based on marriage could be cited. Assuming that Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, was in fact the Guines girl, this identification would make Margaret related to both King Edward I and Queen Eleanor of Castile. This fits the known evidence. The kinship to the Queen includes a second near kinship through the Fiennes family. The Fiennes connection in particular explains the Queen's involvement in a marriage settlement on Earl Richard and Margaret. We see a similar pattern of involvement of the English royal family with Margaret's brother, Sir Enguerrand de Guines.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
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