Marriage Date of Sir Alan Basset and Aline de Gay
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
I had a chance today to briefly examine William T. Reedy's good work,
Basset Charters c. 1120 to 1250 (Pubs. Pipe Roll Soc. n.s 50) (1995).
Specifically, I examined his comments regarding the marriage of Sir
Alan Basset, of Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, and his wife, Aline de Gay.
I also looked at some of the charters involving the Gay family
inheritance.
On page 164, Mr. Reedy states that Alan Basset "was married to his
first wife Alice into at least Easter term 1205 ... He married Aline de
Gay sometime before 16 April 1206." Mr. Reedy cites as his evidence
for these dates and marriages two references to Curia Regis Rolls,
which items read as follows:
Date: Easter term 1205
Surr'.- Gillebertus de Abbingewrth' Gillebertus de Baseville Willelmus
Malbanc Adam de Aldeham, missi ad sciendum quem Alicia uxor Alani
Basset vellet ponere loco suo versus Thomam filium Ricardi de placito
feodi unius militis in Bradeton', dicunt quod posuit loco sio Alanum
virum suum vel Walterum Clericum etc. [Reference: Curia Regis Rolls, 3
(1926): 274].
Date: 1206
Wilt'. - Alina uxor Alani Basset ponit loco suo Alanum virum suum vel
Matheum Brand' versus Thomam filium Ricardi et Aliciam uxorem suam de
placito terre in Lasbradeton' etc.; et Alicia ponit loco suo Thomas
virum suum. [Reference: Curia Regis Rolls, 4 (1929): 114].
We see above the first mention of the suit dated 1205 which indicates
that "Alice" wife of Alan Basset appoints her husband Alan or Walter a
priest her attorneys in a plea against Thomas Fitz Richard involving
one knight's fee in Broadtown, Willtshire. The following year, in what
is surely a continuation of the same suit, "Aline" wife of Alan Basset
appoints Alan her husband or Matthew Brand to represent her in a plea
of land in Broadtown, Wiltshire against Thomas Fitz Richard and Alice
his wife. There can be no question that Alan Basset's wife in both
parts of this lawsuit is his wife, Aline de Gay. We can be sure of
this as Broadtown, Wiltshire was part of Aline de Gay's inheritance.
Also, the same defendant, Thomas Fitz Richard, in named in both
records.
Elsewhere, on page 163, I find Mr. Reedy has unwittingly provided
evidence which gives us a more accurate dating of Alan and Aline's
marriage. This evidence is found in a renunciation document issued by
Stephen prior and the convent of Monkton Farleigh, Wiltshire of their
claims against Alan Basset concerning the advowson of the church of
Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire. Mr. Reedy has correctly dated this
document as being sometime before 21 April 1191, when Prior Stephen's
successor was deposed [Reference: Knowles, Brooke, and London, Heads of
Religious Houses, pg. 120]. Since Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire was part
of Aline de Gay's inheritance, this record is good evidence that Sir
Alan Basset and his wife, Aline de Gay, were married sometime before 21
April 1191. Alan Basset would have no interest in the advowson of the
church of Wootton Bassett, except through his wife, Aline.
>From his comments in his notes, Mr. Reedy seems to suppose that Wootton
Bassett, Wiltshire was part of Alan Basset's inheritance from his
father. On this point, Reedy is again mistaken. Wootton Bassett,
Wiltshire (which was known simply as Wootton in this time period) was
definitely part of Aline de Gay's inheritance. I've previously posted
a document which associates Aline's widowed mother, Cecily, with
Wootton, Wiltshire in this same approximate time period. Besides
Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire, Aline de Gay's inheritance included as
stated above Broadtown, Wiltshire, as well as Northbrook (in
Kirklington), Oxfordshire (the latter property fell to Aline on the
death of her sister, Cecily, sometime after 1190).
I believe the above discussion demonstrates the importance of tracing
property ownership in both male and female lines when attempting to
assemble a reliable account of a medieval baronial family. In this
instance, Mr. Reedy made several assumptions based on inadequate or bad
information regarding the descent of Gay family estates. This in turn
caused him to make some erroneous statements regarding Sir Alan Basset
and his wife, Aline de Gay.
For evidence that Alan Basset was a knight, see Agnes M. Leys, Sandford
Cartulary (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 19) (1938): 99-100 (charter dated c.
1217 witnessed by "domino Alan Basseth").
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Peter Stewart
chore of the study you have chosen, looking up the current standard
reference & checking the citations there as necessary, can yield helpful
results; and that it is is anyway far more efficient than throwing hysterics
at anyone who prompts you - and, perforce, prods & pokes you - into the same
effort.
Peter Stewart
<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1114567411.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip of other matters>
> For evidence that Alan Basset was a knight, see Agnes M. Leys, Sandford
> Cartulary (Oxfordshire Rec. Soc. 19) (1938): 99-100 (charter dated c.
> 1217 witnessed by "domino Alan Basseth").
Does this confirm that he was a knight? Surely not? Or is there
other information on the charter?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Thank you for your good post.
The word "domini" [lord] used like this in a medieval charter is an
indication that the person in question was knighted. It's the
equivalent custom we see in records of this time period and later where
wives of knights are addressed as "domina" [lady] or "dame."
Another individual who was called "domino" in this same charter was the
famous William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, who we know from other
records was definitely a knight. Alan Basset's wife's grandmother,
Aline Pipard, was the first wife of William Marshal's father.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Clive West
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> The word "domini" [lord] used like this in a medieval charter is an
> indication that the person in question was knighted. It's the
> equivalent custom we see in records of this time period and later where
> wives of knights are addressed as "domina" [lady] or "dame."
>
In that case what Latin word would be used to denote a lord of a manor who
was not a knight?
Clive West
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Dear Clive ~
Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.
In the instance I cited for Alan Basset dated c. 1217 being a knight,
the word "domino" preceded his name.
By the late 1200's, this custom was altered. A knight in later records
might be styled by these forms: "Dominus Alan Basset miles" or simple
"Alan Basset miles." Wives of knights, however, continued to be
styled "domina" [lady/dame].
As you indicated, the word "domino" can also refer to someone who was a
lord of the manor. In such a case, the word would follow the man's
name, for example: "Ego Willelmus de Ebestan domino de Tadmorton" [I,
William de Ebestan lord of Tadmorton].
I trust this answers your question.
Rick Eaton
Quite right.
Domino simply means lord and, probably, but not necessarily, lord of a given
manor or town, presumably Wooten Bassett, Wiltshire.
William Bassett was a Settler of New Haven Plantation (Colony). Much
information is available about this family's U.S. lines.
Rick
Jwc...@aol.com
No. Alan Basset being referred to in a
charter as Domino (latin Dominus) merely indicates He was lord of a manor or
manors, a position not necessarily being held by a knight. Wasn`t the latin term
for a knight "miltis" ? just as " comes" denotes an Earl or Count ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Rick Eaton
> Dear Rick and Others,
> No. Alan Basset being referred to in a
> charter as Domino (latin Dominus) merely indicates He was lord of a manor or
> manors, a position not necessarily being held by a knight. Wasn`t the latin
> term
> for a knight "miltis" ? just as " comes" denotes an Earl or Count ?
>
I agree and it is militis, not miltis. But, yes, you are correct about that.
However, in different periods (and I am certainly no authority) some scribes
may have written it differently as Douglas suggested. However, in this case,
it seems to be pretty clear that Domino, meaning lord, means lord and not
knight. A lord of a manor was not necessarily a knight.
Rick Eaton
Rick Eaton
Here, at last and from an electronic version of a book about the famed
Warrens (a.k.a. Wallers) is one reference to and Eaton (Cecily d. of Joan
and Nicholas of Stockport) union.
A scholar friend in Cheshire argues that Eaton (frequently spelled Eton) was
not Sir Nicholas's name at all but, rather, it was Stone but recorded that
way in Cheshire when he came to that county from Warwickshire. So, in
researching your Buckley connection, keep this in mind.
You will see Margery Bulkeley m. Sir. Laurence Warren
* * *
From: The Chequered Wallers A history of the Warren als Waller Family by
Antonia Waller
Reginald de Warenne (-R) m Aldelia de Mowbray
William Warren (-R) m Isabel de Haydon
Sir John Warren (-S) m Alice de Townsend
John Warren (-T) m Joan de Port Sir
Edward Warren (-V) m Maud Skegeton de Nerford
Sir Edward Warren (-X) m Cecily de Eton (Eaton)
Sir John Warren (-Y) m Margaret Stafford (1)
Nicholas Warren (-Z) mA gnes Wynnington
Sir Laurence Warren (A) m Margery Bulkeley
John Warren (B) m Isabel Stanley
Richard Warren (C) m ?
William Warren als Waller (D) m ?
William Warren als Waller (E) m Mawde.
William Warren als Waller (F) m Elizabeth Hammond
John Warren als Waller (G) m Margaret
* * *
As the "book" was sent to me, by a third or fourth party, I have no idea
where it originated. A google search did not help me find it online.
Rick
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
For a further discussion of the word "dominus" in early texts to
indicate a knighted individual, I might recommend you read the
following work which discusses ancient phraseology:
John Riddell, Reply to the Misstatements of Doctor Hamilton of Bardowie
[more commonly known as Riddell's Reply] (1828), pg. 15.
John Riddell specifically states: "... dominus when so occuring
actually denotes knight ... Its intrinsic meaning, when preceding a
christian name, was sir, which even obtained in the case of churchmen,
when Dominus was so rendered in our language, they being then what was
vulgarly denominated Pope's Knights."
In his notes, Mr. Riddell provides several examples to prove his point.
I concur with Mr. Riddell.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Peter Stewart
<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1114623403....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> As you indicated, the word "domino" can also refer to someone who was a
> lord of the manor. In such a case, the word would follow the man's
> name, for example: "Ego Willelmus de Ebestan domino de Tadmorton" [I,
> William de Ebestan lord of Tadmorton].
>
> I trust this answers your question.
Not quite - this is a ham-fisted (or maybe ham-systed) attempt to bandy
Latin, that you clearly don't have a clue about: "Ego Willelmus de Ebestan
domino de Tadmorton" would be a greeting from one person to another, meaning
"I, William de Ebestan to the lord of Tadmorton". Since "domino" doesn't
agree with "Willelmus", this can't refer to the same person in the same
phrase.
The formula you would have given if you knew the most basic of all Latin
lessons, the nominative singular of the second declension, is "Ego Willelmus
de Ebestan dominus de Tadmorton".
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
it out. Much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
> You're quite correct about the Latin error, Peter.
A course in Latin should be available in Salt Lake City, and it would
be well worth your while to learn the basics at least, as word-spotting
can be fraught with difficulties when even the number of people
involved in a sentence is not clear.
Ditto "fanqais", although self-teaching should be practicable enough
for French.
Alternatively there may be translation programs or other tools to help
with both languages - I'm not sure that this can be achieved yet with
Latin, but workaday French shouldn't be too hard for a machine. In find
that Alta Vista's "Babel-fish" site (http://babelfish.altavista.com)
works reasonably well for Russian.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> The word "domini" [lord] used like this in a medieval charter
> is an indication that the person in question was knighted.
On a different tack regarding this word, "domini" might refer to a
single person only if the case is genitive (i.e. meaning "of the
lord").
By the wway, I was re-reading today a paper about political relations
between France & Normandy in the 11th century, where an earlier
statement that overlordship of the Vexin had been shared between the
Frankish king and the Norman duke was rebutted.
This misunderstanding had come about from a document in which the count
referred to his "domini" (nominative plural in the context), naturally
taken to mean that at the date of writing he had two overlords. And so
he did - but these were the king of Franks and his heir, who had been
crowned in association, and the duke of Normandy had nothing to do with
the overlordship until this was granted to him later.
There's nothing tricky about the Latin, of course, but as well as the
hazards in deciphering script or interpreting fanciful ideas, it can be
easy to overlook the rationale behind literal truth in medieval
documents.
Peter Stewart
