Agatha de Hommet
Bill Prokasy
In contrast, Complete Peerage, Vol III:168, has Agatha as the daughter of William de Hommet (son of Richard), as does English Baronies, Line 214A-27.
Is DD in error, or have there been corrections to the earlier information?
Bill Prokasy
Home Page: http://wprokasy.myweb.uga.edu/home.htm
Photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/wprokasy
Peter Stewart
"Bill Prokasy" <w...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.10.128924084...@rootsweb.com...
> Domesday Descendants, p. 522, states that Agatha de Hommet,
> who married William de Fougeres, was the daughter of Richard
> de Hommet, son of Robert de Hommet.
>
> In contrast, Complete Peerage, Vol III:168, has Agatha as the
> daughter of William de Hommet (son of Richard), as does
> English Baronies, Line 214A-27.
>
> Is DD in error, or have there been corrections to the earlier
> information?
This appears to be a mistake in DD - according to the later chronicle of
Savigny, where the deaths of several seigneurs of Fougères are recorded,
Agatha was the daughter of William of Le Hommet (entry for the death of her
son Geoffrey, on 14 June 1212: "Obiit Gaufridus dominus Filgeriarum, filius
Willelmi et Agathæ, filiæ Willelmi de Humeto, XVIII kal. julii.").
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:ib9m11$123$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I checked this further, because it puzzled me that Keats-Rohan is not alone
in making Agatha a daughter rather than granddaughter of Richard du Hommet,
and consequently a sister rather than daughter of his son William.
Several other historians who have touched on this in recent years seem to
think her paternity important enough to mention, but not to verify. Opinion
is divided, but not as a matter of controversy since they don't appear to
have noticed the discrepancy - Nicholas Vincent [in 'Twyford under the
Bretons 1066-1250', *Nottingham Medieval Studies* 41 (1997)] and Jörg
Peltzer [in 'Portchester, les évêques d'Avranches et les Hommet
(1100-1230)', *Annales de Normandie* 56 (2006)] both agree with Keats-Rohan
in making Agatha the daughter of Richard, whereas Daniel Power [in 'Henry,
Duke of the Normans (1149/50-1189)', *Henry II: New Interpretations*, edited
by Christopher Harper-Bill & Nicholas Vincent (Woodbridge, 2007)] made her
the daughter of William; oddly, Frédéric Morvan [in 'Les seigneurs de
Fougères du milieu du XIIe au milieu du XIVe siècle', *Bulletin et mémoires
de la Société d'histoire et d'archéologie du pays de Fougères* 41 (2003)]
made her the daughter of someone who is not otherwise known to history, a
"Raoul du Hommet, qui était le beau-père de Guillaume de Fougères". None of
them cited evidence to prove the relationship.
I suspect that Keats-Rohan took her information from Vincent's 1997 article.
At any rate she clearly did not undertake careful research into the career
of Richard du Hommet - she says that he "first occurs at a composition
between Robert, earl of Gloucester, and the bishop of Bayeux at Devizes in
1146", but perhaps she means "first occurs as constable of Normandy..."
since he was named before this in a letter from Pope Innocent II, dated 18
June written in 1142 or 1143 [*Antiquus cartularius ecclesiæ Baiocensis
(Livre noir)*, edited by Victeur Bourrienne, 2 vols (Rouen & Paris,
1902-1903) vol. 1 pp. 241-2 no.195], ratifying the sentence passed on him
for interfering with possessions of the dioces of Bayeux. In the same entry
Keats-Rohan mistitled *Étude sur la baronnie et l'abbaye d'Aunay-sur-Odon*
and misnamed the author, Gaston Le Hardy, as "L. Harding".
The chronicle of Savigny was compiled well after Agatha's time, but using
records that were presumably contemporary. In any event it is at best sloppy
to retain dates of deaths, etc, given in this chronicle while contradicting
it about the name of her father. He was consistently given as William in the
literature from at least the early 18th century onwards, until Vincent's
1997 article as far as I can tell. The only direct evidence that I can find
that is independent of the chronicle is a charter in which William called
Agatha's son Geoffrey de Fougères his "nepos" - Vincent translated this as
"nephew", without dicsussing the point, but obviously the term could just as
well mean "grandson".
The chronology is not definitive but seems to support the probability that
Agatha was William's daughter, as recorded at Savigny, and not his sister.
Richard du Hommet had retired as a monk at Aunay a year and a half before
his death in 1181 according to Robert de Torigni. Since he was an adult by
1142/43 he was perhaps 60+ when he died. William occurs along with his
father as witness to an undated charter written between 1155 and 1165 [see
Round, *Calendar of Documents...*, p. 439 no. 1215], and he died not long
after 13 November 1205 when he joined (along with Agatha's husband Fulk
Paynel) in a notification issued at Rouen (ibid p. 476 no. 1318, see *Trésor
des chartes* vol. 1 p. 296 no. 785: "...et ego Fulco Paenel, et ego
Guillelmus de Homez"].
William's son Jordan was bishop of Lisieux from January 1202, so was
presumably born by 1172. Agatha was apparently not much, if at all, older.
She had two children by her first husband, who died on 7 June 1187, and at
least five by her second husband including a daughter Lucy (the name of
William's wife).
The appears to be no good reason to discredit the statement in the chronicle
of Savigny that she was William's daughter.
Peter Stewart
xager8on
Is Williams' (son of Richard) wife Agnes de Saye or Lucy de Haye?
AR8 214A-27 Agatha du Hommet father as William, d. 1180, Seigneur Le
Hommet by his wife Lucy. Whereas, line 184A-6 identifies Agnes du
Hommet father as William, d. abt 1213 Seigneur Le Hommet by his wife
as Lucy.
There seems to be a bit of confusion as to father/son.
WJho...@aol.com
xager...@hotmail.com writes:
I doubt that either death year is firmly evidenced.
AR is not the end of the line, it's a faint beginning.
Gerville mentions (as cited by JCB Sharp here in Apr 2006) that this
William is named living in 1204 and that his father's name was Richard, not
another William.
I would suggest AR is confused about exactly when William the husband of
Lucy died, and that confusion has created another William who never existed.
W.
xager8on
Peter Stewart
"xager8on" <xager...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:00ead6a9-57e6-4a5a...@fl7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> Peter, I have a question.
>
> Is Williams' (son of Richard) wife Agnes de Saye or Lucy de Haye?
Richard's wife was Agnes, called "de Beaumont", whose father was Jordan de
Sai, seigneur of Aunay.
> AR8 214A-27 Agatha du Hommet father as William, d. 1180, Seigneur Le
> Hommet by his wife Lucy. Whereas, line 184A-6 identifies Agnes du
> Hommet father as William, d. abt 1213 Seigneur Le Hommet by his wife
> as Lucy.
Agatha's father William was married to Lucy, whose parentage is unknown.
> There seems to be a bit of confusion as to father/son.
Richard died in 1181. William was living in November 1205 and apparently
died not long afterwards, some years before 1213. I have no idea where AR8
got either 1180 or ca 1213 for his death.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Useful information about this family can be found in the Lands of the
Normans in England (1204-1244) webpage, see
http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/normans/casestudies.shtml with a further link to
a genealogical table (NB William I's wife Lucy is not certainly known to
have belonged to the Neubourg family as shown).
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
hsone
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ichre0$o48$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:00ead6a9-57e6-4a5a...@fl7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> >> Peter, I have a question.
>
> >> Is Williams' (son of Richard) wife Agnes de Saye or Lucy de Haye?
>
> > Richard's wife was Agnes, called "de Beaumont", whose father was Jordan de
> > Sai, seigneur of Aunay.
>
> >> AR8 214A-27 Agatha du Hommet father as William, d. 1180, Seigneur Le
> >> Hommet by his wife Lucy. Whereas, line 184A-6 identifies Agnes du
> >> Hommet father as William, d. abt 1213 Seigneur Le Hommet by his wife
> >> as Lucy.
>
> > Agatha's father William was married to Lucy, whose parentage is unknown.
>
> >> There seems to be a bit of confusion as to father/son.
>
> > Richard died in 1181. William was living in November 1205 and apparently
> > died not long afterwards, some years before 1213. I have no idea where AR8
> > got either 1180 or ca 1213 for his death.
>
> Useful information about this family can be found in the Lands of the
> a genealogical table (NB William I's wife Lucy is not certainly known to
> have belonged to the Neubourg family as shown).
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter Stewart
FWIW Keats-Rohan (DD: 675 & 680) identifies Lucy as daughter of Robert
de Rumilly of Skipton and sister of Cecily wife of William le Meschine.
Peter Stewart
"hsone" <seal...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e837d61b-b24e-4739...@x14g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 23, 7:01 pm, "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> > of the Normans in England (1204-1244) webpage, see
> > further link to a genealogical table (NB William I's wife Lucy
> > is not certainly known to have belonged to the Neubourg
> > family as shown).
>
> of Robert de Rumilly of Skipton and sister of Cecily wife of
> William le Meschine.
Keats-Rohan identified Lucy the wife of Jordan de Sai as "doubtless" and
"probably" daughter of Robert de Rumilly, but not Lucy the wife of William
du Hommet who is the subject of my comment above.
The latter is conjectured by Daniel Power to have belonged to the Neubourg
family, but this appears as definite in the genealogical table on the
webpage I mentioned.
Peter Stewart
xager8on
which I have been unable to substantiate with sources. Jim Weber,
having errors with "whose who" in the du Hommet family, has Williams
wife as Lucy de Haye. Can be viewed at
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I07402.
Unfortunately a number of websites show the same marriage but no
supportive evidence to claim she is of the "de Haye" family. I have
read a number of books, but there is nothing to persuade me that she
is "de Haye" or "du Neubourg" based on facts.
One thing to note in my research is that in the book Henry II: new
intepretations, pg. 112, states in the footnote "Lucy, wife of William
the constable (d. c1206), remains unidentified, but may have been a
sister of Henry du Neubourg: see Cartularies of Southwick Priory, ii.
23 (iii. 72)".
I have no library close enough to view Cartularies of Southwick
Priory, ii. 23 (iii. 72). Was Henry the son of Robert I du Neubourg?
Is this enough to support her ancestry?
Peter Stewart
Not in my view - it's a donation to Southwick priory by Robert de Neubourg,
made ca 1190, "for his salvation and for the soul of his friend, Lucy de
Humetis, and for the souls of all his ancestors, kindred and lords".
It does indicate that Lucy had died by the time of the charter, but not
necessarily her direct relationship to the donor's family.
As for the alternative stated on Jim Weber's web page, it would not seem
very likely that Lucy belonged to the family of La Haye considering that her
son Richard's first wife was Gila de la Haye - this may be just from
confusion of the two generations.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
I should have added: Lucy was buried at Southwick priory and Robert de
Neubourg was not the only patron to make a donation naming her - see part
ii. p. 19 no. III 53, a donation by Ralph de Beaumont "for the souls of Lady
Lucy de Humet' of pious memory, and of his father Nicholas, whose bodies are
buried at Southwick; for the soul of Sir Richard de Humet', and for the
salvation of himself and of all his lords and friends".
Peter Stewart
John Watson
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ichre0$o48$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:00ead6a9-57e6-4a5a...@fl7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> >> Peter, I have a question.
>
> >> Is Williams' (son of Richard) wife Agnes de Saye or Lucy de Haye?
>
> > Richard's wife was Agnes, called "de Beaumont", whose father was Jordan de
> > Sai, seigneur of Aunay.
>
> >> AR8 214A-27 Agatha du Hommet father as William, d. 1180, Seigneur Le
> >> Hommet by his wife Lucy. Whereas, line 184A-6 identifies Agnes du
> >> Hommet father as William, d. abt 1213 Seigneur Le Hommet by his wife
> >> as Lucy.
>
> > Agatha's father William was married to Lucy, whose parentage is unknown.
>
> >> There seems to be a bit of confusion as to father/son.
>
> > Richard died in 1181. William was living in November 1205 and apparently
> > died not long afterwards, some years before 1213. I have no idea where AR8
> > got either 1180 or ca 1213 for his death.
>
> Useful information about this family can be found in the Lands of the
> a genealogical table (NB William I's wife Lucy is not certainly known to
> have belonged to the Neubourg family as shown).
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter Stewart
Hi Peter et al,
For the Hommet/Humez family see also:
Lincoln Record Society, Vol. 41, Registrum Antiquissimum of the
Cathedral Church of Lincoln, Vol. 6 (1950) Appendix II, pp. 181-6
http://www.archive.org/stream/publicationslinc41lincuoft#page/180/mode/2up
Regards,
John
Peter Stewart
"John Watson" <watso...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7698b76-c2f5-428f...@j32g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> For the Hommet/Humez family see also:
> Lincoln Record Society, Vol. 41, Registrum Antiquissimum of the
> Cathedral Church of Lincoln, Vol. 6 (1950) Appendix II, pp. 181-6
Some of the arguments of Kathleen Major in this appendix were corrected by
Daniel Power [in Henry, Duke of the Normans (1149/50-1189), cited before, p
110 note 1]. There is evidence in a charter for Saint-Fromond, not known to
Major, indicating that Robert du Hommet was "nepos" (presumably grandson) to
Bishop Odo [NB Keats-Rohan also overlooked this] and also that there was an
earlier family of Le Hommet.
Peter Stewart
John P. Ravilious
> "John Watson" <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Dear Peter,
According to my notes, KSB Keats-Rohan in fact provided the
following re: Robert, du Hommet or 'nepos Episcopi', in Domesday
Descendants:
' Robert Nepos Episcopi
Alleged to have been son of Henry I's chaplain John of Bayeux and
grandson of Odo bishop of Bayeux, the identification reposes upon a
weak chain of supposition and cannot be accepted with complete
confidence (cf. K. Major, Linc. Reg. Antiq., vol. vi, pp. 181-86).
Occurs on the Pipe Roll of 1129/30, when he was pardoned a murder fine
in Hundred, Sussex. Father of Richard, the constable, and Philip de
Humet, named from Hommet-d'Anthenay, cant. Saint-Jean-de-Daye, Manche.
' [DD 1050]
Earlier Norman clerics had an interesting habit of leaving
progeny. Interesting too, if the proposed descent of the du Hommet
family from Bishop Odo of Bayeux, there would then be extant descents
from every known child of Herleve (or Arlette), the mother of William
the Conqueror.
Cheers,
John
Peter Stewart
"John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d07e502d-edcc-4713...@p1g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
That's exactly what I was referring to - Keats-Rohan, like Kathleen Major,
overlooked the stronger evidence pointed out by Daniel Power.
> Earlier Norman clerics had an interesting habit of leaving
> progeny. Interesting too, if the proposed descent of the du Hommet
> family from Bishop Odo of Bayeux, there would then be extant descents
> from every known child of Herleve (or Arlette), the mother of William
> the Conqueror.
There's not much doubt - Robert du Hommet was specifically called "nepos
Odonis episcopi" in a charter for Saint-Fromond, not just "nepos episcopi"
(as in the appendix by Major) which is the key point of evidence that
Keats-Rohan characterised as a "weak chain of supposition".
I don't see how this could very well mean anything other than a grandson of
Bishop Odo of Bayeux.
Peter Stewart
John Watson
> Earlier Norman clerics had an interesting habit of leaving
> progeny.
>
>
> John
John,
I do not think that it was their interesting apparel which caused them
to leave progeny :-)
Regards,
John
John Watson
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> news:icjtma$es$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:5be12536-ac97-4648...@i10g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> >> Peter, thanks for the links and confirms what I had. Another question,
> >> which I have been unable to substantiate with sources. Jim Weber,
> >> having errors with "whose who" in the du Hommet family, has Williams
> >> wife as Lucy de Haye. Can be viewed at
Hi Peter,
There is a possibility that she was a daughter of Richard de la Haye.
At an inquisition into the manor of Dodinton by Clyve,
Northamptonshire held in 1293, it was stated that in the time of king
Richard the manor came into the hands of Richard de la Haye, after
whose death it descended to Nicholaa, Juliana and Isabel his
daughters. In the time of king John the whole manor came into the
hands of the said Nicholaa. The jurors stated that they had heard that
William Humet married the said Juliana and Gerard de Caunvile married
the said Nicholaa.
Calendar of Inquisitions Miscellaneous, Vol. 1, p. 460, no. 1644
Of course this is about 100 years after the event and memories might
be a bit hazy.
Regards,
John
Peter Stewart
> On Nov 25, 4:11 am, "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> >
> > de Neubourg was not the only patron to make a donation naming her
> > - see part ii. p. 19 no. III 53, a donation by Ralph de Beaumont "for
> > the souls of Lady Lucy de Humet' of pious memory, and of his father
> > Nicholas, whose bodies are buried at Southwick; for the soul of Sir
> > Richard de Humet', and for the salvation of himself and of all his
> > lords and friends".
> >
> > Peter Stewart
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> There is a possibility that she was a daughter of Richard de la Haye.
>
> At an inquisition into the manor of Dodinton by Clyve,
> Northamptonshire held in 1293, it was stated that in the time of king
> Richard the manor came into the hands of Richard de la Haye, after
> whose death it descended to Nicholaa, Juliana and Isabel his
> daughters. In the time of king John the whole manor came into the
> hands of the said Nicholaa. The jurors stated that they had heard that
> William Humet married the said Juliana and Gerard de Caunvile married
> the said Nicholaa.
> Calendar of Inquisitions Miscellaneous, Vol. 1, p. 460, no. 1644
>
> Of course this is about 100 years after the event and memories might
> be a bit hazy.
One way or another these memories appear to have been of the next
generation, not of Agatha's father William I du Hommet (died ca 1206/08)
whose only known wife was Lucy (dead by ca 1190).
This man's nephew William, son of his brother Enguerrand, had a wife named
Juliana - cf the table of the Semilly branch on the Lands of the Normans
website and his charter for Aunay abbey dated 1204 ("Ego Will. de Semilleio
... pro salute Juliane et Melicende uxorum mearum").
I don't know if this is the marriage recalled by the jurors, or instead that
of his cousin Richard (son of William I and Lucy) whose wife Gila is said to
have been a daughter of Richard de la Haye and Mathilde de Vernon.
In or before 1185 Nichola, daughter of Richard de la Haye and Mathilde, was
married to Gerard de Camville of Creeke (died 1214). Around the same time
Agatha du Hommet, daughter of William I, married William of Fougeres. They
were probably of approximately the same age. I can't see any reason to
speculate that they were aunt and niece, and that Agatha's mother Lucy -
wife of a man who first occurs thirty years earlier - was later identifed
with Juliana de la Haye.
Peter Stewart
John P. Ravilious
> "John Watson" <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
------------------
Dear Peter (and John, et al),
The evidence in the _Rotuli de dominabus_ supports the
identification of Juliana de la Haye's husband as Richard du Hommet.
Following is the pertinent text:
' Matillis de la Haia, que fuit filia Willelmi de Vernun, et uxor
Ricardi de la Haia, est de donatione Domini Regis, et est lvij
annorum; et habet iij filias, quarum j habet Gerardus de Camville, et
alteram Ricardus de Humez, tertiam Willelmus de Rolles. ' [1]
Given this is a record created ca 1185 it should be accorded
greater credence than the inquisition of 1293 in which the jurors
identified William de Humez as Juliana's husband.
Of genealogical note, Nichole, daughter of Richard du Hommet and
Juliana de la Haye, received the manor of Duddington, Northants. as
her maritagium from her aunt Nichole (de Camville) when marrying
Oliver d'Eyncourt (aka Deincourt) [2]. Oliver Deincourt and Nichole
du Hommet have a very wide-ranging progeny, including Deincourt,
FitzWilliam, Willoughby and a good many more.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] J. H. Round, ed., Rotuli de Dominabus et Pueris et Puellis de XII
Comitatibus (London: Publications of the Pipe Roll Society, N.S.,
1913), p. 6.
[2] CP IV:118 note (c) as identified by Cris Nash and resolved by
Rosie Bevan: see SGM thread "Deincourt Uncertainties", Jan 2002.
WJho...@aol.com
the...@aol.com writes:
> ' Matillis de la Haia, que fuit filia Willelmi de Vernun, et uxor
> Ricardi de la Haia, est de donatione Domini Regis, et est lvij
> annorum; et habet iij filias, quarum j habet Gerardus de Camville, et
> alteram Ricardus de Humez, tertiam Willelmus de Rolles. ' [1]
>
Can I translate this without reference to any dictionary or online tool?
Matilda de la Haye who was daughter of William de Vernon and wife of
Richard de la Haye is donating to the King? and is 57 years old ? and having three
daughters who are 1 habet (what is habet, having?) Gerald de Cambille and
after? (or alternate?) Richard de Hommet and third William de Rolles.
So I guess this Isabel married this last son-in-law, but I'm more
interested in this statement that when she made this she was 57, am I reading this
correctly?
Will
pj.evans
> In a message dated 11/25/2010 9:57:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>
'est de donatione Domini Regis' = 'is in the gift of the king'
Gerald de Camville has ('married' is probably closer in meaning) one
daugher, Richard de Hommet has another, and William de Rolles has the
third.
John P. Ravilious
> In a message dated 11/25/2010 9:57:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>
-----------------------
Dear Will,
I would translate the text in question as:
' Matilda de la Haye, who was the daughter of William de Vernon,
and wife of Richard de la Haye, is in the gift of the Lord King, and
is 57 years of age; and she has 3 daughters, of which 1 has Gerard de
Camville [as her husband], and another Richard de Humez, the third
William de Rullos. '
There was no gift involved on the part of Matilda; what is meant
is, she being widowed, it was the King's right to give her in
marriage.
Cheers, and happy T-day,
John
WJho...@aol.com
mean that the King has the right to marry her off to someone? Is that what
this is about?
Will
WJho...@aol.com
pj.eva...@usa.net writes:
> 'est de donatione Domini Regis' = 'is in the gift of the king'
> Gerald de Camville has ('married' is probably closer in meaning) one
> daugher, Richard de Hommet has another, and William de Rolles has the
> third.
>
But am I reading it correctly, that she was 57? Or to what does the lvij
refer?
pj.evans
> In a message dated 11/25/2010 11:00:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>
> > 'est de donatione Domini Regis' = 'is in the gift of the king'
> > Gerald de Camville has ('married' is probably closer in meaning) one
> > daugher, Richard de Hommet has another, and William de Rolles has the
> > third.
>
> But am I reading it correctly, that she was 57? Or to what does the lvij
> refer?
I think you have that right; it's how I'm reading it also. (If she was
in the gift of the king, she must have been widowed.)
Peter Stewart
> The evidence in the _Rotuli de dominabus_ supports the
> identification of Juliana de la Haye's husband as Richard du
> Hommet.
> Following is the pertinent text:
>
> ' Matillis de la Haia, que fuit filia Willelmi de Vernun, et uxor
> Ricardi de la Haia, est de donatione Domini Regis, et est lvij
> annorum; et habet iij filias, quarum j habet Gerardus de Camville,
> et alteram Ricardus de Humez, tertiam Willelmus de Rolles. ' [1]
>
> Given this is a record created ca 1185 it should be accorded
> greater credence than the inquisition of 1293 in which the jurors
> identified William de Humez as Juliana's husband.
Thanks, John.
This is an interesting example of erratic name forms in medieval documents:
a charter King Richard I, dated 20 June 1190, granting to Richard du Hommet
some of the La Haye inheritance in right of his wife, called her Gila rather
than Juliana - "Sciatis nos dedisse et reddidisse et presenti carta nostra
confirmasse dilecto et familiari nostro Ricardo de Humetis, pro servicio et
homagio suo, et Gile, uxori sue, et heredibus eorum Popevillam et
Warrevillam cum pertinenciis suis omnibus, tenendas de nobis et heredibus
nostris cum baronia sua, sicut jus et hereditatem suam ex parte predicte
Gile, uxoris sue."
The jurors of 1293 presumably confused Richard du Hommet and his wife
Gila/Juliana of La Haye with William (du Hommet) de Semilly and his wife
Juliana.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> On Nov 25, 1:24 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> > In a message dated 11/25/2010 9:57:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> >
> > ther...@aol.com writes:
> > > ' Matillis de la Haia, que fuit filia Willelmi de Vernun, et uxor
> > > Ricardi de la Haia, est de donatione Domini Regis, et est lvij
> > > annorum; et habet iij filias, quarum j habet Gerardus de Camville,
> > > et alteram Ricardus de Humez, tertiam Willelmus de Rolles. ' [1]
<snip>
> Dear Will,
>
> I would translate the text in question as:
>
> ' Matilda de la Haye, who was the daughter of William de Vernon,
> and wife of Richard de la Haye, is in the gift of the Lord King, and
> is 57 years of age; and she has 3 daughters, of which 1 has Gerard de
> Camville [as her husband], and another Richard de Humez, the third
> William de Rullos. '
>
> There was no gift involved on the part of Matilda; what is meant
> is, she being widowed, it was the King's right to give her in
> marriage.
I think it's worth sticking closer to the Latin syntax, where the
sons-in-law Gerard, Richard and William are in the nominative - hubands
"had" wives in 12th century parlance, but not usually the other way round.
Hence "Matilda de la Haye...has three daughters, of whom Gerard de Camville
has one, Richard du Hommet another, William de Rolles the third".
Stating that Matilda was "de donatione regis" in these stock-take rolls
indicated that she was holding her listed property as the widow of a
tenant-in-chief and so could not act in many things, including marriage,
without the king's consent. It did not imply that the royal court would set
about arranging a marriage for a 57-year-old woman.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
The officials who compiled the Rotuli de dominabus of 1185 seem to have been
confused too - it appears that Gila (Gille, or Egidia) was the correct name
of Richard du Hommet's first wife, daughter of Richard de la Haye and
Matilda de Vernon.
This was given when her mother, along with her widower, made a donation to
Blanchelande abbey on the day of Gila's burial there, "ego Mathildis de
Haya, salutem. Notum vobis sit quod ego donavi abbatie Sancti Nicolai de
Blancalanda, in perpetuam et quietam elemosinam, pro anima mea et pro
animabus antecessorum meorum, et pro anima Egidie carissime filie mee, ad
officium et in die sepulture illius, domino Ricardo de Humetis, marito
illius, concedente et mecum donante, centum solidos andegavensium ... ego
Ricardus de Humetis, dominus Haye, salutem. Notum sit vobis quod ego
concessi et donavi in perpetuam et quietam elemosinam, pro anima mea et pro
animabus antecessorum meorum, et pro anima Egidie uxoris mee, abbatie Sancti
Nicolai de Blancalanda donationem quam fecerat ei Matildis de Haya".
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
I owe their ghosts an apology - on rereading the post from John Ravilious,
it's clear that the officials in 1185 did not name her at all.
Does anyone know if "Juliana" for Richard du Hommet's wife Gila comes only
from the later source posted by John Watson, or is there an earlier
occurrence of this?
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
This was careless on my part - I didn't read the footnotes.
Richard I of Le Hommet died after spending his last year and a half as a
monk at Aunay according to Robert de Torigni, and this account comes under
1181.
However, the text has been wrongly rubricated by a copyist: the passage
occurs shortly after noting that King Henry II held his Christmas court at
Nottingham, which was in 1179 so that Richard du Hommet's death should
evidently be placed early in 1180.
An obituary of Mont-Saint-Michel records him under 20 February. If both
reports are correct then he probably retired as constable of Normandy
(succeeded in office by his son Guillaume) ca August 1178.
Peter Stewart
John P. Ravilious
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ichre0$o48$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
------------------------
Thanks Peter,
That certainly clarifies the confusion re: Juliana, and puts
Gilla (or Giles) de la Haye in her place.
Also, for the extracts from the grants by Matilda de Vernon (lady
de la Haye) and her son in law Richard du Hommet. In the charters
given in the Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes, there is a grant
dated 1220 by William du Hommet, constable of Normandy which is of
interest for several reasons:
' Sciant omnes qui sunt et qui futuri sunt quod ego Willelmus de
Humetis, constabularius Normannie, dimisi abbatie de Blancalanda
decimas omnium releviorum que exeunt de maneriis meis Poupeville et
Varreville quas injuste detinueram, et concessi quod abbatia habeat
illas in perpetuum, bene et in pace, sine reclamatione mea vel heredum
meorum. Concessi etiam quod abbatia possideat pacifice omnes décimas
denariorum meorum qui proveniunt de portagio bladi et de factura
brasii mei de Varrevilla, que ad abbatiam eandem pertinebant cum
predictis releviis ex dono Ricardi de Haya, avi mei,et ex concessione
Ricardi de Humetis patris mei ; et insuper dimisi omnino calengium
meum quod habebant super decimam lx solidorum quos abbatia de
Cesarisburgo habet annuatim in manerio meo de Varrevilla. Et ut hec
omnia perpetuam firmitatem habeant, presentem cartam sigillo domini
Hugonis Constanciensis episcopi et sigilli mei feci testimonio
confirmari. Actum anno gratie millesimo ducentesimo vigesimo. ' [1]
It is widely held that Richard du Hommet predeceased his father,
with his (alleged) brother William succeeding as Constable of
Normandy. This would appear to make sense, as it is printed in Bain
concerning the marriage of Clemence de Fougeres to Ranulf, Earl of
Chester that 'William de Humez owes 75 marks for marrying his niece to
the Earl of Chester' [Bain, CDS I:63, cites Pipe Roll 7 John, Rot. 18,
dorso]. The foregoing charter makes it apparent that William du
Hommet 'the younger' was the son of Richard du Hommet by his wife
Gilla de la Haye [he calls his grandfather 'Ricardi de Haya, avi
mei']. The William de Humez named ca 1206 was the husband of Lucy,
and father of Richard du Hommet, not his brother: where Bain took
'nepta' to mean niece, in this instance it certainly mean
'granddaughter'.
Further, the grant of Duddingston, Northants. by Nichole de la
Haye to her niece Nichole du Hommet also makes sense: as William du
Hommet was the (French) Constable of Normandy and had lost any English
lands or claim to same due to the Pacificiaton of Normandy, it was
left to the young Nichole's English kin to provide her maritagium.
William du Hommet = Lucy
constable of Normandy I
________________________I______
I I
Richard Agatha
= Gilla de = Guillaume de
la Haye Fougeres (dvp)
I I
____I_____________ _______I_______
I I I I
William Nichole Geoffrey Clemence
constable of = Oliver sr de = 1) Alan
Normandy, Deincourt Fougeres de Dinan
1220 (d 1212) = 2) Ranulf
E of Chester
Cheers,
John
Notes:
[1] Notice sur les attaches d'un sceau de Richard Coeur de Lion, in
Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes (Paris: J. B. DuMoulin, 1853), 3rd
ser., IV:60, note 4. This charter was evidently extracted from
Stapleton, Magni rotuli Scaccarii Normanniae, vol. I, p. cxlv.
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> It is widely held that Richard du Hommet predeceased his father,
> with his (alleged) brother William succeeding as Constable of
> Normandy.
The first part is correct - Richard did die before his father William. I'm
not sure that the second part was ever "widely held", since there are
several charters of the younger William du Hommet referring to Richard's
father William as his own grandfather, for instance one dated 1213 for the
chapel of Saint Catherine at La Perrine which later became a priory founded
by his second wife Eustachia of Montenay ("Willelmus de Humeto,
conestabularius, avus meus").
> This would appear to make sense, as it is printed in Bain
> concerning the marriage of Clemence de Fougeres to Ranulf,
> Earl of Chester that 'William de Humez owes 75 marks for
> marrying his niece to the Earl of Chester' [Bain, CDS I:63,
> cites Pipe Roll 7 John, Rot. 18, dorso].
I can't be certain what Bain had in mind, but the more widely held
misunderstanding is that Clemence was niece rather than granddaughter of the
older William, i.e. that her mother Agatha was his sister rather than his
daughter, as stated by Keats-Rohan and discussed earlier in this thread.
<snip>
> Notes:
>
> [1] Notice sur les attaches d'un sceau de Richard Coeur de Lion, in
> Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes (Paris: J. B. DuMoulin, 1853), 3rd
> ser., IV:60, note 4. This charter was evidently extracted from
> Stapleton, Magni rotuli Scaccarii Normanniae, vol. I, p. cxlv.
No, a copy of this charter was provided to Delisle by Charles de Gerville
("La charte suivante, dont je dois la copie à M. de Gerville..."). The
reference to Stapleton is for the statement that Henry II granted Varreville
and Poupeville to Richard de la Haye - on the page specified Stapleton
wrote: "Richard de Humeto was dead before 1213, and probably in the lifetime
of his father, as his son William describes himself 'Guillelmus de Humeto,
Constabularius Normanniæ, filius Richardi de Humeto, junioris'; in right of
his mother he succeeded to Varanguebecq and numerous fiefs in the Côtentin
of the succession of the barony of Haye-de-puits".
Peter Stewart
TJ Booth
Thank you both for helping clarify this line. Here are some added sources and thoughts to ponder.
In 2006, JCB Sharp (reciting his earlier 2000 post) identified William du Hommet's wife as Lucy de Brix/Bruis (see http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-04/1144609500 ). His source, not cited in this year's postings, was M.de Gerville, Memoire sur les anciens Chateaux du departement de la Manche, Memoires de la Socit des Antiquaires de la Normande, 1824, 177-367. The Journal is available on the Gallica website @ http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?Destination=Gallica&O=NUMM-200040 ).
Sharp's source also confirms Richard II de Hommet was a son of William and Lucy - if one accepts Sharp's redating of Gerville's transcribed 1232 charter, the marriage occurred before 1182. There was an extended discussion on SGM at that time of Lucy's identity and her placement in the Bruis family.
Lucy's identity is also shown in A. Lerosey; Histoire de l'abbaye bénédictine de Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte; 1894; Abbeville; C Paillart; page 236 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=mA5BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA236&dq="lucie+de+brix" - there she is called the sole heir of Brix (apparently dau of Robert, grand-dau of Adam) and their son Richard is said to marry "Gillette de la Haye" - the de la Hayes were local to the area.
There is a previously uncited extended article on the Hommets in L'Abbe Bernard; "La Baronnie du Hommet : Son Origine-Ses Seigneurs"; Notices, mémoires et documents, St. Lo; Vol 17 (1899) @ http://books.google.com/books?id=kiUXAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA1 . William de Hommet (shown as William II) and Lucy are stated to have had 6 children : Richard, Guillaume, Henry, Jourdan, Thomas and Enguerrand (page 9). My French is not good enough to follow the article in detail - there does not appear to be any mention of an Odo relationship. Perhaps someone with better French can decipher the article to find mention of Robert's origins, which somehow involves Roger de Bienfaite, who was granted the chateau of Hommet in 1030 but (d.s.p.?) was succeeded by Robert, said to be at the Battle of Hastings.
Below are quoted Sharp's more relevant comments :
"Lucy de Bruis, married William du Hommet constable of Normandy who held the forest of la Luthumire in succession to his father Richard (Gerville 241), he lost his English lands in 1204.
The evidence for the marriage is a charter said to be dated 1232 by which William, grantee of la Luthumire, and his wife Lucy, heiress to her grandfather Adam, gave various rents to the priory of la Luthumire, witnessed by Richard their son and William Say (Gerville 242). The date should no doubt be corrected to 1182 (mclxxxij vs mccxxxij). Stapleton attempted to find it in the chartulary of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte but the footnote in the article gives the source as a document in the author's possession. There might be something in the unpublished chartulary of la Luthumire.
5. Richard du Hommet, married Julia daughter and co-heiress of Richard de la Hay constable of Lincoln (Sanders 109).
6. Nichola du Hommet, married Robert de Mortimer (Gerville 243)."
Gerville 243 is quite clear that Richard's dau Nicole m. Mortimer: "Au milieu de XIIIe siecle, Nicole, fille de Richard du Hommet, epousa Robert de Mortemer, Jeanne leur fille unique, fut mariee a Guillaume de Beccrespin, marechal de France". She thus could not be wife of Oliver Deincourt unless she were married twice.
The previously cited Jan 2002 'Deincourt Uncertainties' (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-01/1012395608 ) does not positively identify Deincourt's wife, instead stating "William [du Hommet] relinquished his English lands and the manor came to Nichola who gave it to Sir Oliver Deincourt with Nichola her niece. It is not specifically stated but the niece is presumably daughter of Juliana de la Haye and Richard le Humet d.v.p. 1205, son of William le Humet, Constable of Normandy d.1209.".
It would seem more likely that Oliver's wife was the dau of Gerard de Camville and Nicola de la Haye:
1) According to Gerard de Camville's DNB (1908, ii:856), the couple did have a dau of marriageable age - she might well have been named after her mother "On Richard's return in 1194 he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of 2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks for liberty to marry her daughter to whomsoever she pleased, provided he was not an enemy to the king."
2) The CP entry is consistent with Gerard's wife being the grantee to her dau (iv:118, note c.) "This John [Deincourt] . . . was son and heir of Oliver (who had livery in 1217), by Nichole, to whom Nichole (1st daughter and coheir of Richard de la Haye, and wife of Gerard de Camville) gave Duddington in free marriage; which Oliver . . ."
Might the cited 1293 IPM have confused a niece for a dau?
No doubt William and Lucy's dau Agnes (m. Baldwin Wake) is not shown in the chart below since it is already noted by CP (xii/2:297) and does not appear uncertain.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
On Saturday, November 27, 2010 11:00 AM, John P. Ravilious wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Thanks Peter,
That certainly clarifies the confusion re: Juliana, and puts Gilla (or Giles) de la Haye in her place.
Also, for the extracts from the grants by Matilda de Vernon (lady de la Haye) and her son in law Richard du Hommet. In the charters given in the Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes, there is a grant dated 1220 by William du Hommet, constable of Normandy which is of
interest for several reasons:
'Sciant omnes qui sunt et qui futuri sunt quod ego Willelmus de Humetis, constabularius Normannie, dimisi abbatie de Blancalanda decimas omnium releviorum que exeunt de maneriis meis Poupeville et Varreville quas injuste detinueram, et concessi quod abbatia habeat illas in perpetuum, bene et in pace, sine reclamatione mea vel heredum meorum. Concessi etiam quod abbatia possideat pacifice omnes décimas denariorum meorum qui proveniunt de portagio bladi et de factura brasii mei de Varrevilla, que ad abbatiam eandem pertinebant cum predictis releviis ex dono Ricardi de Haya, avi mei,et ex concessione Ricardi de Humetis patris mei ; et insuper dimisi omnino calengium meum quod habebant super decimam lx solidorum quos abbatia de Cesarisburgo habet annuatim in manerio meo de Varrevilla. Et ut hec omnia perpetuam firmitatem habeant, presentem cartam sigillo domini Hugonis Constanciensis episcopi et sigilli mei feci testimonio confirmari. Actum anno gratie millesimo ducentesimo vigesimo.'[1]
It is widely held that Richard du Hommet predeceased his father, with his (alleged) brother William succeeding as Constable of Normandy. This would appear to make sense, as it is printed in Bain concerning the marriage of Clemence de Fougeres to Ranulf, Earl of Chester that 'William de Humez owes 75 marks for marrying his niece to the Earl of Chester' [Bain, CDS I:63, cites Pipe Roll 7 John, Rot. 18, dorso]. The foregoing charter makes it apparent that William du Hommet 'the younger' was the son of Richard du Hommet by his wife Gilla de la Haye [he calls his grandfather 'Ricardi de Haya, avi mei']. The William de Humez named ca 1206 was the husband of Lucy, and father of Richard du Hommet, not his brother: where Bain took 'nepta' to mean niece, in this instance it certainly mean 'granddaughter'.
Further, the grant of Duddingston, Northants. by Nichole de la Haye to her niece Nichole du Hommet also makes sense: as William du Hommet was the (French) Constable of Normandy and had lost any English lands or claim to same due to the Pacificiaton of Normandy, it was left to the young Nichole's English kin to provide her maritagium.
William du Hommet = Lucy
constable of Normandy I
________________________I______
I I
Richard Agatha
= Gilla de = Guillaume de
la Haye Fougeres (dvp)
I I
____I_____________ _______I_______
I I I I
William Nichole Geoffrey Clemence
constable of = Oliver sr de = 1) Alan
Normandy, Deincourt Fougeres de Dinan
1220 (d 1212) = 2) Ranulf
E of Chester
Cheers,John
[Notes:]
WJho...@aol.com
terry...@sbcglobal.net writes:
> Sharp's source also confirms Richard II de Hommet was a son of William
> and Lucy - if one accepts Sharp's redating of Gerville's transcribed 1232
> charter, the marriage occurred before 1182. There was an extended discussion
> on SGM at that time of Lucy's identity and her placement in the Bruis
> family.
>
>
I'm sure you dont' exactly mean that.
The charter was witnessed by *their son Richard*.
So I would suggest that the marriage occurred much before 1182.
This son Richard was married *by* Jun 1190 and his own son William, this
thread states was Constable of Normandy in 1220, and presumably then an adult
at least.
I would suggest that Richard was born by 1170.
Will
Peter Stewart
"TJ Booth" <terry...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.25.129091537...@rootsweb.com...
> John and Peter,
>
> Thank you both for helping clarify this line. Here are some
> added sources and thoughts to ponder.
>
> In 2006, JCB Sharp (reciting his earlier 2000 post) identified
> William du Hommet's wife as Lucy de Brix/Bruis (see
> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-04/1144609500 ).
> His source, not cited in this year's postings, was M.de Gerville,
> Memoire sur les anciens Chateaux du departement de la
> Manche, Memoires de la Socit des Antiquaires de la
> Normande, 1824, 177-367. The Journal is available on the
> Gallica website @
> http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?Destination=Gallica&O=NUMM-200040 ).
This is the first part of four - Charles de Gerville's work continued in the
issues (titled *Mémoires de la Société des antiquaires de Normandie*) for
1825, 1827-28 and 1829.
> Sharp's source also confirms Richard II de Hommet was a son
> of William and Lucy - if one accepts Sharp's redating of
> Gerville's transcribed 1232 charter, the marriage occurred before
> 1182. There was an extended discussion on SGM at that time of
> Lucy's identity and her placement in the Bruis family.
I'm not convinced that the evidence is sound or that it was necessarily
reported accurately by Charles de Gerville.
I haven't seen the charter of Guillaume du Hommet in question (unpublished,
as far as I can tell), but according to Jean-Louis Adam in *Le prieuré de
Saint-Pierre de la Luthumière ou de Saint-Jouvin à Brix* (1892) this was
dated 1232 and the first witness was "Lucia, uxore mea", supposed to have
been a granddaughter of Adam de Brus.
However, Lucia the wife of Guillaume I of le Hommet had been buried at
Southwick priory by 1190, while in 1232 Guillaume II of Le Hommet was
married to a lady named Laurencia. The cartulary of Saint-Pierre de la
Luthumière was copied in the mid-15th century, and it may be possible that
the name was changed from Laurencia to Lucia in transcription. This would
certainly fit better with Adam's reconstruction of the Brus genealogy,
making her the granddaughter of a man who died in 1185 (whose father, her
great-grandfather, died in 1162). However, if the next witnesses were
Guillaume's sons Richard and Guillaume de Sai as stated by Gerville then it
would appear to be a misdated charter of Guillaume I as suggested in the
thread from 2006.
> Lucy's identity is also shown in A. Lerosey; Histoire de
> l'abbaye bénédictine de Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte; 1894;
> Abbeville; C Paillart; page 236 @
> http://books.google.com/books?id=mA5BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA236&dq="lucie+de+brix"
> - there she is called the sole heir of Brix (apparently dau
> of Robert, grand-dau of Adam) and their son Richard is said
> to marry "Gillette de la Haye" - the de la Hayes were local
> to the area.
Lerosey was parrotting this from Richard Seguin in *Histoire archéologique
des Bocains* (Vire, 1822), where no source is given.
> There is a previously uncited extended article on the
> Hommets in L'Abbe Bernard; "La Baronnie du Hommet : Son
> Origine-Ses Seigneurs"; Notices, mémoires et documents, St.
> Lo; Vol 17 (1899) @
> http://books.google.com/books?id=kiUXAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA1 .
> William de Hommet (shown as William II) and Lucy are
> stated to have had 6 children : Richard, Guillaume, Henry,
> Jourdan, Thomas and Enguerrand (page 9). My French is not
> good enough to follow the article in detail - there does not
> appear to be any mention of an Odo relationship. Perhaps
> someone with better French can decipher the article to find
> mention of Robert's origins, which somehow involves Roger
> de Bienfaite, who was granted the chateau of Hommet in
> 1030 but (d.s.p.?) was succeeded by Robert, said to be at
> the Battle of Hastings.
The author of this was not Abbé Bernard but Édouard Lepingard. He stated
that Duke Robert the Magnificent (William the Conqueror's father) gave Le
Hommet to Roger de Bienfaite, and his successor (not made out to be related)
was said to be Robert who took part in the battle of Hastings; and the
latter was supposed to have been succeeded by his grandson Guillaume who was
in turn succeeded by his eldest son Richard, made constable of Normandy by
Henry I, who married Agnes de Say. This is a mixture of proven information
and utter nonsense.
Richard of Le Hommet (died 1180) was the constable of Normandy for Henry II,
and was son of Robert who was called "nepos" to Bishop Odo. He was certainly
far too young to have fought in 1066. This Robert's wife was most probably
the daughter of a Guillaume du Hommet.
> Below are quoted Sharp's more relevant comments :
>
> "Lucy de Bruis, married William du Hommet constable of
> Normandy who held the forest of la Luthumire in succession
> to his father Richard (Gerville 241), he lost his English lands
> in 1204.
> The evidence for the marriage is a charter said to be dated
> 1232 by which William, grantee of la Luthumire, and his
> wife Lucy, heiress to her grandfather Adam, gave various rents
> to the priory of la Luthumire, witnessed by Richard their son
> and William Say (Gerville 242). The date should no doubt be
> corrected to 1182 (mclxxxij vs mccxxxij). Stapleton attempted
> to find it in the chartulary of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte but the
> footnote in the article gives the source as a document in the
> author's possession.
Charles de Gerville made a copy of the 15th-century cartulary in 1816 -
this, at least twice removed from the original, was his source.
> There might be something in the unpublished chartulary of la
> Luthumire.
> 5. Richard du Hommet, married Julia daughter and co-heiress
> of Richard de la Hay constable of Lincoln (Sanders 109).
Her name was Egidia or Gila, as discussed earlier, not Juli(an)a.
Peter Stewart