Mother of Gerard de Camville

[Richard Borthwick]

Richard de Camville (d.1176) in his foundation for Combe abbey, Warks,
names his son and heir, Gerard. Importantly, Gerard along with his paternal
uncle Hugo witnessed the charter. The charter was given in 1149 (Annals of
Paroclude) or 1150 (Annals of Waverly). Adelicia was alive in 1143 and in
any case Richard could not have married Milisent before 1143/44 (when
Robert Marmion, Milisent's first husband died). If Gerard de Camville was
Milisent's son then at the earliest he was born in 1144/45. So he was
between 4 and 6 years of age when he witnessed the Combe charter. This does
not seem a plausible age for a witness. If the dating of the charter is
correct and the charter is genuine (no reason so far to think it not so)
Gerard would be Adelicia's son. [*Monasticon Anglicanum* ed. W Dugdale,
rev. ed. by J Caley, H Ellis & B Bandinel (London 1817-30, repr. 1846)
V:584 No.1]

Have I missed something?

[Marilyn Burnett]

Gerard was the father of Richard. Could this be the Gerard that witnessed?

--
m.plat...@att.net
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"Richard Borthwick" <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3.0.1.32.2000060...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au...

[Cristopher Nash]

"Marilyn Burnett" <m.plat...@worldnet.att.net> wrote -

This is potentially fine stuff, Richard B - and I was going to
suggest as Marilyn B has. (Though I'm not completely comfortable
about the evidence for Richard's father, there certainly is an
earlier Gerard, in any case.) Are you able to say whether 'witness
Gerard' is equally identified as son? There are of course cases of
children witnessing, though more commonly (if that's the right word)
these are (by) royal (prerogative), I think. E.g. when the son is
king-designate.

Cris

[Richard Borthwick]

In the body of the charter Richard says that the land gifts to found the
abbey were made with the agreement (i.e. with leave/by permission) and
goodwill (concessu et favore) of his wife (unnamed) and Gerard his son and
heir (filii mei et haeredis Gerardi). Gerard who attests the charter is
designated as Richard's son (Testibus ... Gerardo filio meo et haerede,
Hugone fratre meo ...).

There is no reference in the charter to any Gerard other than Richard's son
and heir.

The reference for the dates (1149, 1150) for the founding of Combe is Mon.
Angl. V:582. I failed to give it in my last post.

[Ivor West]

Perhaps, after all, there were three generations of early Richards
with the (1090) generation of a Richard I and Hugh falling between
Gerard (1060) and Richard II (1120) - 1176 and with Richard III,
governor of Cyprus (1150) - 1191. Richard I would then be 60, and his
son Gerard 30, at the time of the charter. This Gerard would be uncle
to Gerard d. 1215.

Is it certain that the founder of Combe Abbey was Richard II d.1176
and not an earlier Richard I?

Ivor West

Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message

news:3.0.1.32.2000061...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au...

[Marilyn Burnett]

First Millicent now Richard. Anyone up to a seance ? Then they could solve
the mystery. <ggg>

--
m.plat...@att.net
ICQ#72108624
"Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:rXq05.275$LP4....@nnrp4.clara.net...

[Ivor West]

Isn't it not so much a question of a late marriage for Gerard - which
he would seem to have made up for by marrying a woman of a generation
younger (Nichola d.1230) - but his proposed early birth? Presumably
the later date for Gerard's generation (1145-1150) was based on
Millicent being their mother, following the death of her former
husband Robert de Marmion in 1143. For, if Adelicia was reproductive
until 1143, it calls into question, not only that Millicent was
Gerard's mother, but whether she was the mother of any of his siblings
either. (Of course, Millicent could still have been the siblings'
mother provided you are prepared to allow from 8+ years' gap between
their births and Gerald's.)

One advantage for an earlier (1130) date for Gerard's generation, of
course, is that it does allow Richard d.1191 to be the father of John
and Isabel (b.1160). If Millicent is put out of the picture, however,
so is any connection for Camville to Charlemagne via
Rethel-Namur-Lorraine.

The seemingly insuperable disadvantage, as was mentioned, for a later
date for the generation is that Gerard signs as a boy of five.

Incidentally, it is unlikely that Richard, who married Eustachia
Basset, died as late as 1226 as the Book of Fees has his daughter
(also called Eustachia here, not Idonea) as a ward of William
Longespée in 1219.

Ivor West

Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3.0.1.32.2000061...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au...

> The problem we now face is one (of a number) that faced Dugdale,
Nichols
> and others in trying to reconstruct the genealogy of this family. It
is
> whether Gerard son of Richard (d.1176) is to be identified with
Gerard
> (d.1214) husband of Nichola de la Haye and father of Richard (d.in
or
> before 1226) husband of Eustache Basset. The most modern VCH
articles to do
> with the Camvilles go for the identification. This suggests that
Gerard
> married Nichola (relatively) late in life. (I estimate that if
Gerard was
> 12 when he attested in 1149/50 - and he was probably older - then he
would
> have been 40/47 or older when he married Nichola.) His marriage to
Nichola
> (d.1230) took place after her first husband's death in 1178 and
before 1185
> (Sanders *English Baronies* p.109). The only real ground for
"splitting"
> Gerard is chronological in that it appears to have him marrying and
> breeding far too late for a medieval heir. (He probably did marry
earlier
> and may have bred (of whom no males survived).) The significance of
Gerard
> and Nichola's marriage lies not in its lateness in life (for Gerard
at
> least) but in his gaining additional valuable lands and an heir.
>