FW: Mabel de Muscegros, wife of Hervey de Stafford & Robert de Li sle, CP correction?
Jim Weber
My first message didn't seem to get through so I am resending.
I sent the following query to Chris Phillips, as administrator of the
Corrections to CP website (his response included below with additional
information), and he thought the newsgroup might have more information
that would resolve the apparent chronological problem with Mabel's two
marriages.
CP VIII:70 states that Robert de Lisle m. 1stly before 1252, Mabel,
widow
of Hervey, baron of Stafford (d. 1241), and daughter of Sir Robert de
Muscegros, of Charlton, by Hawise, daughter and coheir of Sir William
Malet, of Curry Malet.
CP XII/1:171 has "Hervey de Stafford, son and heir. He m. Mabel,
daughter of Richard de Mucegros. He dsp. before 7 Oct 1241, having left
a will. Mabel survived him and was living in Apr. 1242.
These don't seem to agree with each other. And Volume XIV didn't do a
very good job in trying to make them agree.
Volume XIV:589, in its cook-book fashion, corrects the Hervey de
Stafford
entry by inserting after Mucegros ", of Charlton, by Hawise, daughter
and
coheir of Sir William Malet, of Curry Mallet.". XIV also inserts after
1242,
"Mabel m. 2ndly, Robert de Lisle, who d. 1284." Volume XIV cited the
Lisle entry in volume VIII:70 as the source for making the correction.
Superficially XIV didn't change the name from Mucegros to Muscegros,
nor did it change Richard to Robert, nor did it change Mabel's death
date
of "living Apr 1242" to something indicating she was married again
"before 1252".
But more importantly, I am not sure that the two entries are talking
about
the same Mabel. I believe that Richard de Muscegros was father of
Robert de Muscegros, in which case XII/1:171 might be indicating that
the Mabel who was wife of Hervey de Stafford was one generation earlier
and an aunt of the Mabel who married Robert de Lisle. Hervey de
Stafford died in 1241, while Robert de Lisle was the son of a "bef. Feb
1239/40" marriage and was of age before 1264 when he obtained a
charter. It doesn't make sense for a woman to marry as a 2nd husband,
a man who might not have quite been born when her 1st husband died.
CP XII/1 was written well after VIII, and the editors might have been
aware
of what they were doing when they made the information different. XIV
may be making a bad correction, in trying to make them agree.
Let me know what you think.
Jim Weber
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Phillips <mailto:c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
To: Jim Weber <mailto:jimw...@charter.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Mabel de Muscegros, wife of Hervey & Robert de Lisle?
Dear Jim
Thanks for letting me know about this. The chronology certainly looks
strange, and obviously something has gone wrong with the vol. 14
correction, whether it's the omission of a correction of Richard to
Robert, or
the identification of two different women.
There is some more information in the chart pedigree of Ferrers at vol.
5,
around p. 334 This also identifies the same Mabel, daughter of Sir
Robert de
Muscegros (d. 1253/4) as the wife of both Hervey, Lord Stafford, and Sir
Robert de Lisle. It also shows Sir Robert and Hawise as marrying between
April 1220 and February 1220/1, and Sir John de Muscegros (who I presume
is Sir Robert's son, though if so the line linking him is omitted) as b.
1232.
As Hervey's father was granted his lands in 1217, and married in or
before
1214, Hervey was presumably in his early to mid-20s when he died. So
there's
certainly a big age difference between him and Sir Robert de Lisle, but
whether Hervey's wife would have belonged to the generation of Sir
Robert
de Muscegros seems a bit doubtful.
I'd be tempted to think there was some mistake about the date of
marriage of
Sir Robert de Lisle's parents, or that he was a child of an earlier
marriage of
his father, but as his stated mother was eventually her brother Warin's
heir
(and Robert called his son and heir Warin), presumably that's not the
case.
I think it would be worth posting a query to sgm, in case anyone knows
more
salient facts. Would you like to do it, or should I?
Thanks again
Chris
Jay
> As Hervey's father was granted his lands in 1217, and married in or
> before
> 1214, Hervey was presumably in his early to mid-20s when he died. So
> there's
> certainly a big age difference between him and Sir Robert de Lisle, but
> whether Hervey's wife would have belonged to the generation of Sir
> Robert
> de Muscegros seems a bit doubtful.
>
> I'd be tempted to think there was some mistake about the date of
> marriage of
> Sir Robert de Lisle's parents, or that he was a child of an earlier
> marriage of
> his father, but as his stated mother was eventually her brother Warin's
> heir
> (and Robert called his son and heir Warin), presumably that's not the
> case.
>
> I think it would be worth posting a query to sgm, in case anyone knows
> more
> salient facts. Would you like to do it, or should I?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Chris
Could you clarify what the relation to the Hervey de Stafford you
mention and the one who married Pernell de Ferrers?
Any updates on this are of interest/
Jay
Chris Phillips
Jay wrote:
> [I wrote]
> > It also shows Sir Robert and Hawise as marrying between
> >
> > April 1220 and February 1220/1, and Sir John de Muscegros (who I presume
> >
> > is Sir Robert's son, though if so the line linking him is omitted) as b.
> > 1232.
> >
> I have this John as being married to Cecily Avenal
Yes, the chart in CP vol. 5 (Ferrers) shows his wife as Cecily, Lady of
Bicknor, Taynton and Longford, d. shortly before 10 Aug. 1301. She is shown
as the daughter of Sir William Avenel, of the same places, b. about Nov
1202, d. shortly before 21 Apr 1236, by his wife Aline, living at that date.
> Could you clarify what the relation to the Hervey de Stafford you
> mention and the one who married Pernell de Ferrers?
According to CP vol. 12, pt 1, p. 171, the Hervey (d. bef. 12 May 1237) who
married Pernell was the father of the Hervey (d. bef. 7 Oct. 1241) who
married Mabel.
Chris Phillips
Jay
> According to CP vol. 12, pt 1, p. 171, the Hervey (d. bef. 12 May 1237) who
> married Pernell was the father of the Hervey (d. bef. 7 Oct. 1241) who
> married Mabel.
>
> Chris Phillips
Thanks, Chris that is very helpful, I guess there is still the mystery
as whether Mabel de Muscegeros who married Hervey the Youger was the
same Mabel who married Robert de Lisle, but perhaps some clues to that
will be uncovered in time.
Jay K.