THE BEAUCHAMPS
COMSTOCK, Lisa
Please add me to your list of interested recipients. My family is
descended from Sarah Beauchamp, great grandaughter of Maud de Braose
Beauchamp. I have several sources that support this line, but have not
verified them yet. Yours will add weight if it all matches up.
Thanks in advance,
Lisa Comstock
Reno, NV
soo...@ix.netcom.com
Norma Rudinsky
With so many people interested in de Braose (and relatives), please
post it on the discussion group?
Norma Rudinsky
rudi...@ucs.orst.edu
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, pegken wrote:
> This is a repeat to be on the list to receive information about the DE
> BRAOSE line. I cleverly left off my e-mail address. Thanks for
> everyone's patience with newbies.
> Peggy
> peg...@azstarnet.com
>
pegken
Dave Utzinger
In a message dated 97-03-06 15:12:09 EST, you write:
<< This is a repeat to be on the list to receive information about the DE
BRAOSE line. I cleverly left off my e-mail address. Thanks for
everyone's patience with newbies.
Peggy
>>
Hi Peggy:
I have this lovely family unit:
1. William of Braose1 died 1211.
Notes
Lord of Brecknock, Abergavenny, Builth, Radnor, and Gower who was exiled by
King John.
Child of William is:
+ 2 i. William of Braose2, died 1210.
Generation No. 2
2. William of Braose2 (William of Braose1) died 1210. He married
Matilda
of Clare, daughter of RICHARD and AMICIA.
Notes
Starved to death by King John.
Child of William and Matilda is:
3 i. John of Braose3.
Here's another grouping
1. Reginald of Braiose1. He married Gwladys Ddu, daughter of LLWYELYN
and
Joan.
Child of Reginald and Gwladys Ddu is:
+ 2 i. William of Braiose2.
Generation No. 2
2. William of Braiose2 (Reginald of Braiose1).
Child of William is:
+ 3 i. John of Braiose3.
Generation No. 3
3. John of Braiose3 (William of Braiose2, Reginald of Braiose1). He
married Margaret 1220, daughter of LLWYELYN and Joan.
Notes
Lord of Bramber and Gower
Child of John and Margaret is:
+ 4 i. Sir Richard of Braiose4, died 1335.
Generation No. 4
4. Sir Richard of Braiose4 (John of Braiose3, William of Braiose2,
Reginald of Braiose1) died 1335.
Child of Sir is:
5 i. Margaret of Braiose5, died Bef 12-May-1325. She married
Sir Roger
COLVILLE.
These are probably all related somehow! Let me know if you figure it out or
get another post more complete than what I have.
Always optimistic--Dave
Erin Bradford
According to my database, 1. William was the father of 1. Reginald who was
the father of 2. William As like with all my other info, I have no sources
though so I would appreciate learning about this line too.
Erin Bradford
ks...@montana.campus.mci.net
Todd A. Farmerie
Dave Utzinger wrote:
> Hi Peggy:
>
> I have this lovely family unit:
There is a touch of confusion here (I have mostly rearanged your post,
and taken out the ">" in lines I have edited):
There are several earlier generations, which can be found in Sanders
accout of the baronial families of Norman England (I forget the exact
title).
> 1. William of Braose1 died 1211.
>
> Notes
> Lord of Brecknock, Abergavenny, Builth, Radnor, and Gower who was exiled by
> King John.
>
> Child of William is:
> + 2 i. William of Braose2, died 1210.
ii. Giles2
3 iii. Reginald2
> Generation No. 2
>
> 2. William of Braose2 (William of Braose1) died 1210. He married
> Matilda of Clare, daughter of RICHARD and AMICIA.
>
> Notes
> Starved to death by King John.
>
> Child of William and Matilda is:
4 i. John of Braose3.
3. Reginald of Braiose2. He married Gwladys Ddu, daughter of
LLWYELYN
> and Joan.
>
> Child of Reginald and Gwladys Ddu is:
5 i. William of Braiose3.
Generation No. 3
4. John of Braiose3 (William of Braiose2, William of
Braiose1). He
> married Margaret 1220, daughter of LLWYELYN and Joan.
>
> Notes
> Lord of Bramber and Gower
>
> Child of John and Margaret is:
+ 6 i. Sir Richard of Braiose4, died 1335.
(this attribution has long been debated, and is probably right, but
there is some question. It was addressed in The Genealogist several
years ago, but I don't recall the conclusion.)
ii. William4 (actually oldest son) he married multiple times, and
had numerous children, many of which are found in CP (under Brewes, I
think).
5.William3 (Reginald2,William1) lord of Abergaveny, etc. He had only
daughters and coheiresses. See CP.
> Generation No. 4
>
6. Sir Richard of Braiose4 (?John of Braiose3, William of
Braiose2,
William of Braiose1) died 1335.
>
> Child of Sir is:
7 i. Margaret of Braiose5, died Bef 12-May-1325.
She married
> Sir Roger COLVILLE.
>
taf
Mary D. Wood
Dave Utzinger wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-03-06 15:12:09 EST, you write:
>
> << This is a repeat to be on the list to receive information about the DE
> BRAOSE line. I cleverly left off my e-mail address. Thanks for
> everyone's patience with newbies.
> Peggy
> >>
>
> I have this lovely family unit:
>
>
> Notes
> Lord of Brecknock, Abergavenny, Builth, Radnor, and Gower who was exiled by
> King John.
>
> Child of William is:
> + 2 i. William of Braose2, died 1210.
>
>
> 2. William of Braose2 (William of Braose1) died 1210. He married
> Matilda
> of Clare, daughter of RICHARD and AMICIA.
>
> Notes
> Starved to death by King John.
>
> Child of William and Matilda is:
>
> Here's another grouping
>
> and
> Joan.
>
> Child of Reginald and Gwladys Ddu is:
>
> Generation No. 2
>
> 2. William of Braiose2 (Reginald of Braiose1).
>
> Child of William is:
> + 3 i. John of Braiose3.
>
> Generation No. 3
>
> 3. John of Braiose3 (William of Braiose2, Reginald of Braiose1). He
> married Margaret 1220, daughter of LLWYELYN and Joan.
>
> Notes
> Lord of Bramber and Gower
>
> Child of John and Margaret is:
>
> Generation No. 4
>
> Reginald of Braiose1) died 1335.
>
> Child of Sir is:
> 5 i. Margaret of Braiose5, died Bef 12-May-1325. She married
> Sir Roger
> COLVILLE.
>
> get another post more complete than what I have.
>
that Margret was not proven to be the daughter of Joan, Princess of
England only the daughter of Llewellyn. Is there a consensus on Joan's
maternity? Is there any acceptable proof available?
Still hoping.
Mary D. Wood
mary...@epix.net
Todd A. Farmerie
OK, here we go. What follows is a summary of everything I have hand on
Braose. Dates are truncated to year. It should not be assumed that
this is complete in any line (particularly the Stinton line and numerous
Welsh marriages), nor that younger sons or any daughters are listed in
order. Second childless marriages are not always shown. My sources
are:
Weis/Sheppard Magna Carta Sureties
Weis/Sheppard Ancestral Roots, 7th Ed.
Complete Peerage
Dict. Nat. Biog.
Visit. Shropshire (St.Peter pedigree)
and notes taken from:
Bromfield's Norfolk
Pedigrees from Plea Rolls
a series of articles on Braose in vol 4-6 of The Genealogist (the old
one)
1.William de Braose, lord of Bramber m.
2. a.Philip
2.Philip, lord of Bramber m. Aenor, dau. Juhel de Totnes
3. a.William
b.Philip, presum. dsp.
3.William d.1192-3, lord of Bramber m. Bertha of Gloucester, dau. of
Miles
4. a.William
b.Bertha m. William de Beauchamp
c.Sibyl m. William de Ferrers
4.William d.1211, Lord of Abergaveny, m. Maud de St.Valery, d.1210
5. a.William
b.Giles, Bishop of Hereford
c.Reynold, d.1227/8, Lord of Abergaveny, m1. Gracia de
Breuerre, m2. Gwladys Ddu, dau. Llywellyn
(prob. not by Joan)
i.William, Lord of Abergaveny, ex.1230 (by Llywellyn)
m.Eva Marshall
A.Eleanor m. Humphrey (VI) de Bohun
B.Eve m. William de Cantelou
C.Maud m. Roger de Mortimer
d.Maud m. Gruffydd ap Rhys, great-grandson of Rhys ap Tudor
e.Margery/Margaret m. Walter de Lacy
5.William d.1210, m. Maud de Clare, dau. Richard.
6. a.John
b.Maud m. Henry de Tracy
6.John d.1232, Lord of Bramber and Gower m. Margaret, daughter of
Llywellyn (unknown if by Joan)
A7. a.William
B7. b.Richard (prob)
c.John (prob)
A.
7.William, Lord of Bramber and Gower, d.sh.bef.1290/1, m1) Aline de
Multon, m2) Agnes de Moeles, m3) Maud de Ros
a.(by 1)William, Lord of Bramber and Gower, m1) unknown,
who was mother of children
i.William (presumably dspvp)
ii.Joan m1) James de Bohun m2) Richard Folliot
iii.Aline m1) John de Mowbray m2) Richard Peshale
b.(by 2)Giles
c.(by 3)Richard, d.1245 sp, of Tetbury
8. d.(by 3)Peter
e.(by 3)William, of Wiston, d.1360 m Eleanor de Bavant
i.Peter of Wiston, d.c.1377 m. Joan Percy
A.John, dsp.
B.Beatrice m. Hugh Shirley
f.(prob by 3)Margaret
8.Peter, d.1311/2 of Tetbury
9. a.Thomas
b.John m. Elizabeth
i.George (eventual heir of uncle Thomas)
ii.Agneta m. Urian de St. Peter
9.Thomas, Lord Brewes, d.1361, m. Beatrice de Mortimer (no issue beyond
grandchildren)
a.John dsp 1366/7
10. b.Thomas
c.Beatrice m. William de Say
10.Thomas, d.1395, m. Margaret
a.Thomas dsp 1395
b.Joan
B.
7.Richard, d.b.1292, m. Alice le Rus of Stinton
8. a.Giles
b.Richard m Alianore
c.Margaret m. Roger de Colville
d.Mary m. John Weyland
8.Giles of Stinton d.1310 m. Joan de Beaumont
a.Richard, dsp bef. 1325
b.Robert, m. Katherine de Norwich, dsp1325
9. c.John
9.John of Stinton, d.aft.1370, m. Eve d'Ufford
10. a.John
10.John of Stinton, d.1394-1402 m. Joan de Shardelowe
11. a.Robert
11.Robert of Stinton, d.1424, m. Eva de Stapleton
12. a.Thomas
12.Thomas of Stinton, d.1482, m1) Joan de Calthorpe, m2) Elizabeth de
Debenham
a.(by 1)William of Stinton, d.1469, m. Elizabeth Hopton
i.Thomasine m. Thomas Hansard
ii.Anne m. Roger Towneshend
b.(by 1)Ela m. William Yelverton, Just. King's Bench
13. c.(by 2)Robert
13.Robert d.1514 m. Catherine Wingfield
a.Thomas
CARRIED AWAY
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Dave Utzinger wrote:
> 1. Reginald of Braiose1. He married Gwladys Ddu, daughter of
LLWYELYN and> Joan.
and their grandson John married Margaret daughter of LLWYELYN and Joan
>
> Child of John and Margaret is:
> + 4 i. Sir Richard of Braiose4, died 1335.
Is this meant to be a direct line? Because if both Gwladys Ddu and
Margaret were children of Joan (they were both certainly daughters of
Llywelyn), how could one have married the grandson of the other? And even
if it was a bit of a John Woodville case, if John de Braose married
Margaret in 1220, how could their son have still been alive in 1335, 115
years later? As far as I was aware, Reginald de Braose was the _uncle_ of
John de Braose and his brother Philip, and Reginald was father to the
William de Braose who actually had an affair with Joan, wife of Llywelyn.
Does this sound more plausible?
Michelle
*****************************************************************************
Michelle Murphy | Junior Sophister | "New dreams, new dreams;
BESS Trinity College Dublin | there is no truth
E-Mail: mmu...@alf2.tcd.ie | ...No learning from the starry men
http://www3.tcd.ie:80/~mmurphy | ...Go gather by the humming sea"
Secretary of TCD Science-Fiction Soc| - W.B. Yeats 1889
|
"Where do I go in my last ecstasy?" - "Leave" (R.E.M.)
YOU'RE COMING ON TO SOMETHING SO FAST SO NUMB THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN FEEL
****************************************************************************
Todd A. Farmerie
I looked at a couple of additional sources, and can make a few additions
to my Braose account:
From Bartrum's Welsh Pedigrees:
> 4.William d.1211, Lord of Abergaveny, m. Maud de St.Valery, d.1210
> 5. a.William
> b.Giles, Bishop of Hereford
> c.Reynold, d.1227/8, Lord of Abergaveny, m1. Gracia de
> Breuerre, m2. Gwladys Ddu, dau. Llywellyn
> (prob. not by Joan)
> i.William, Lord of Abergaveny, ex.1230 (by Llywellyn)
> m.Eva Marshall
(he is son by 1, which I failed to denote)
> A.Eleanor m. Humphrey (VI) de Bohun
> B.Eve m. William de Cantelou
> C.Maud m. Roger de Mortimer
D.Isabella m. Daffyd ap Llywellyn (by Joan)
ii.(app. by 1)Matilda m. Rhys Mechyll, son of Rhys
Gryg and nephew of Gr. ap Rh., below
> d.Maud m. Gruffydd ap Rhys, great-grandson of Rhys ap Tudor
> e.Margery/Margaret m. Walter de Lacy
And from Moriarty's NEHGR article on Wingfield:
> B.
>
> 7.Richard, d.b.1292, m. Alice le Rus of Stinton
> 8. a.Giles
> b.Richard m Alianore
b.ca.1280, he was father or grandfather of
Eleanor, m. John Wingfield (her father was a Richard,
who held Wingfield, but since daughter
Catherine (wife of Michael de la Pole)
was b.ca.1350, probably Eleanor was
granddaughter, rather than daughter of
the above Richard.
taf
pegken
Thank you, Todd for the list of the de Braose family. It looks very
close to what I have. I appreciate the list of your sources.
Peggy
caro...@aol.com
In article <33250C...@po.cwru.edu>, "Todd wrote:
>Eleanor, m. John Wingfield (her father was a Richard,
> who held Wingfield, but since daughter
> Catherine (wife of Michael de la Pole)
> was b.ca.1350, probably Eleanor was
> granddaughter, rather than daughter of
> the above Richard.
>
How is this family related to the Elizabeth Wingfield (daughter of Sir John Wingfield & Eleanor ?Glanville?) who m. a Michael de la Pole, whom you mentioned in an earlier message of last December:
"This Michael is son of Michael de la Pole> who married Catherine Wingfield, daughter of Sir John Wingfield and> Eleanonor Glanville. " (qualifications omitted)
Thanks!
Carolyn Clark Campbell
Todd A. Farmerie
That's the problem with omitting those qualifiers. Eleanor is
traditionally called a Glanville. Moriarty makes a good argument that
this is incorrect, and that instead she was a Braose. Not only was
Braose the lord of Wingfield prior to it coming to John, but he also
made a donation for prayers to be said for his soul, and those of his
wife, and of Richard de Braose and his wife. There is no contemporary
evidence to link Glanville to Wingfield, so it looks like Broase wins.
taf
CarolynCC
In article <33250C...@po.cwru.edu>, "Todd wrote:
>Eleanor, m. John Wingfield (her father was a Richard,
> who held Wingfield, but since daughter
> Catherine (wife of Michael de la Pole)
> was b.ca.1350, probably Eleanor was
> granddaughter, rather than daughter of
> the above Richard.
>
How is this family related to the Elizabeth Wingfield (daughter of Sir
John Wingfield & Eleanor ?Glanville?) who m. a Michael de la Pole, whom
you mentioned in an earlier message of last December:
"This Michael is son of Michael de la Pole> who married Catherine
Wingfield, daughter of Sir John Wingfield and> Eleanonor Glanville. "
(qualifications omitted)
Thanks!
Carolyn Clark Campbell