lords of berkeley

[mike]

I have several questions about the early lords of Berkeley:

1. The lords of berkeley trace their descent from Maurice (d.1190) who
married Alice
daughter of Roger III de Berkeley, who was deprived it by Henry II in
1152. Is there
an accurate tree of this first berkeley family?

2. Maurice is called the son of Robert Fitzharding. But several
accounts give this Robert
a sister, Matilda who was married to another Robert de Berkeley. To
which family
does he belong or where does he fit in?

3. Robert Fitzharding died in 1171. Yet many online sites give him an
anglo saxon grandfather Ealdnoth who died fighting the Normans in
1068.
That means his father Harding must have been born at the very latest
in 1068/9: 2 generations spanning 100 years in a most turbelent
time, seems extremely unlikely. Is there any real evidence for
this saxon ancestry? which seems politically unlikely as i understood
Normans didnt even appoint saxons to the clergy in the 12th century,
let alone make saxons barons?

Thanks for any help in this matter.

Mike

[CE Wood]

From the Post-Em by Curt Hofemann to Jim Weber's site at:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I01424

"ID: I01424 Roger III de Berkeley , of Dursley, Sir

It would appear from relatively recent (1999) research from Dr.
Katherine S.B. Keats-Rohan that this Roger III was not the son of
Roger II as per CP, but of William, nephew of Roger II:

1. Roger I (Senior), m. Rissa, d. 1093.
1.1. Roger II (Junior), dsp bef. Michaelmas (29 Sep.) 1131, possibly
m. Racendis who survived him.
1.2. (NN), d. bef. Roger II.
1.2.1. William, heir of his uncle Roger II (Junior) in 1129/1130, d.
before 1142.
1.2.1.1. Roger III, d. after 1177.
1.2.1.1.1. Roger IV, d. 1190.
1.2.1.1.2. Alice m. Maurice s. of Robert FitzHarding.
1.3. Eustace of Nympesfield (because his nephew inherited Berkeley, I
speculate that he also predeceased his bro. Roger II).

*****

Berkeley (PROPOSED CORRECTIONS)
Volume 2, pages 123, 124:
1. ROGER, styled "Senior," who, having, between 1068 and 1071, been
made Provost of the manor of Berkeley by Earl William Fitz-Osbern ...
took the name of DE BERKELEY from his residence there ... On 17 Jan.
1091 he became a Monk of St Peter's, Gloucester, and d. 1093.(b)
2. ROGER DE BERKELEY, styled Junior, br. of Eustace of Nympesfield,
both being not improbably sons of the above Roger, senior. ... He d.
before Michaelmas, 1131.
3. ROGER DE BERKELEY, s. and h. ... He was deprived of the Manor of
Berkeley, &c., about 1152 ... He d. about 1170, leaving issue.
Note b: In the charter of St. Martin at Auchy, mentioned in vol. i, p.
351, note "d," among the benefactors there occurs "Rogerus de
Berchelaico cum uxore sua Rissa." (ex inform. G. W. Watson.) V.G.
K. S. B. Keats-Rohan [Domesday People, p. 401; Domesday Descendants,
p. 321] gives an account of the early Berkeleys that differs from this
in several respects. Most importantly, she says that the third Roger
was the son of William, who was a nephew of the second Roger. Also,
that the first Roger married Rissa and died c.1091-3; that the second
Roger possibly left a widow Racendis; that William accounted for the
second Roger's land and office in 1129/30; and that the third Roger
succeeded William after c.1141 and died after 1177, leaving a son
Roger (d. 1190) as well as a daughter Alice, who married Maurice, the
son of Robert fitz Harding. [Ref: Chris Philips, Some corrections and
additions to the Complete Peerage online at:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/p_berkeley.shtml#p123]"

CE Wood

[PDel...@aol.com]

Some Saxons were given, or retained, lands, vide the ancestors of the
Nevilles......

Pg de loriol

[John P. Ravilious]

On Nov 9, 4:03 pm, CE Wood <wood...@msn.com> wrote:
> From the Post-Em by Curt Hofemann to Jim Weber's site at:http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I...

> > Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wednesday, 10 November, 2010

Dear CE, Mike, and Peter,

I am largely inclined towards KSB K-R's reconstruction of the
Berkeley family, with one exception: that 'Racendis' [nominative case
prob. Racenda/Richenda or similar] was not the wife of Roger 'II', but
rather more likely the mother or stepmother of William de Berkeley,
and of one or more younger sons.

The early history of the Berkeleys in Scotland is even more
problematic than in England, but early on we find a sheriff of the
Mearns ca 1172-1199 best known as Humphrey de Berkeley. Humphrey was
in fact Humphrey fitz Theobald, his father being Theobald de Adeville
(allegedly a descendant of a Flemish emigrant) who later took the
surname of his wife, Agatha de Berkeley [1]. While many authors take
Humphrey and Agatha to be the ancestors of many or most Scots
Berkeleys, this appears unlikely as their legitimate issue daughtered
out with their heir - Richenda. The later history of Richenda and her
husband Robert fitz Wernebald I will likely discuss in a subsequent
thread, but the significant matter here would appear to be the
continuance of the name Racenda or Richenda in the family.

For a number of reasons I would place Richenda de Berkeley (dau.
of Agatha) as likely born say 1150-1155, and Agatha probably born say
1130-1140. The relatively tight chronology vs. the English family
would I think indicate a very few generations from the 'matron
Racendis' to Agatha, and I would propose a reconstruction something
like the following:

[NOTE: the following is a conjecture and is
presented for discussion purposes. Conjectured
links are presented thus: ........: ]

NN de Berkeley = 1) NN = 2) RACENDIS
(brother of Roger II and Eustace) I : d. aft. 1126
_______________________I ...:..............
I I I
William de Berkeley NN de NN de
d. aft. c. 1141 Berkeley Berkeley
I (emig. to (emig.
to
I Scotland) Scotland)
I I
__I__________
I I
I I
Roger 'III' de Berkeley Agatha
Walter Robert
fl. ca 1100/1110 - ca 1170 b say 1130x1140 Chamberlain
I = Humphrey 'de d aft 1186
I Berkeley' = Eve of
Galloway
_________I_________ ________I____ I
I I I I I
Alice Roger Humphrey RICHENDA NN =
Ingram de
= Maurice dsp = Robert
Balliol
de Berkeley fitz sheriff
of Berwick
d. 16 Jun 1190 Wernebald d. aft
28 May 1230
d. aft 1189

Agatha had lands in Ardoyne in Aberdeendshire (inherited or
otherwise is unknown as yet), so her mother or father likely had a
grant or inheritance of their own in northeastern Scotland early on.
This, and Walter de Berkeley's rise to Chamberlain of Scotland and
marriage to a daughter of the Lord of Galloway, speak to there being
at least one generation prior having come to Scotland, likely under
the generous patronage of David, earl of Huntingdon (later David I, K
of Scots) as is traditinally credited with regard to other emigrant
families of the 12th century.

Cheers,

John

NOTES

[1] See G. W. S. Barrow, Kingdom of the Scots, pp. 66-67; also A. A.
M. Duncan, Scotland, The Making of the Kingdom (1975), p. 176, and
George Chalmers, Caledonia II:529-530. Charter evidence given in
Barrow, The Acts of William I, King of Scots, 1165-1214 Edinburgh,
1971), nos. 344, 350, as well as the Liber de Aberbrothoc (I:60-61,
no. 90).

[John P. Ravilious]

> no. 90).- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Hello All,

This is a repost of the chart given in the prior message.

Cheers,

John

]

NN de Berkeley = 1) NN = 2) RACENDIS

(br of Roger II and Eustace) I : d. aft. 1126

_______________________I .......:..........
I I I
William de Berkeley NN de NN de
d. aft. c. 1141 Berkeley Berkeley
I (emig. to (emig. to
I Scotland) Scotland)

I I ___I________

I I I I
Roger 'III' de Berkeley Agatha Walter
Robert
fl. ca 1100/1110 - ca 1170 b say 1130x1140 Chamberlain
I = Humphrey 'de d aft 1186
I Berkeley' = Eve of Galloway

____I_________ ________I___ I

[mike]

> ...
>
> read more »

thanks to all posters, but i dont see where this other 12th century
Robert de Berkeley fits in. Is he one of these scottish berkeleys?

I see no evidence of any saxon ancestry for Robert Fitzharding.
I know he was a kings reeve in Bristol but is there any source
which says he was a saxon?

Also I thought the Nevilles were descended from Gilbert Neville
who came with the conqueror. surely he wasnt a saxon?

thanks

mike

[CE Wood]

Much research has been done and much of that has been posted by Curt
Hofemann as Post-ems to Jim Weber's site. Robert was the son of
Harold, son of Eadnoth. Rather than regurgitate here what you can find
there, start by going to Eadnoth "The Staller" Thane of GLOUCESTER
found at http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I00669.
Follow the descent, reading each extensive, sourced Post-em.

CE Wood

[John P. Ravilious]

> >           I                       (emig. to        - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

Dear Mike,

I believe the Robert de Berkeley you were questioning was within
the chart I had posted. This was a brother of Walter de Berkeley,
chamberlain of Scotland, known from a charter of King William the Lion
granting lands of Cousland, Pentland and Gogger, co. Edinburgh to
Radulph de Graham which was witnessed by 'Walter de Berkeley, Robert
his brother' and others ca. 1180 [Montrose muniments in HMC II:166,
no. 3].

An attempt at a final presentation of the genealogical chart in
question is given below.

Cheers,

John

NN de Berkeley = 1) NN = 2) RACENDIS
(br of Roger II and Eustace) I : d. aft. 1126
_______________________I .......:..........
I I I
William de Berkeley NN de NN de
d. aft. c. 1141 Berkeley Berkeley
I (emig. to (emig. to
I Scotland) Scotland)
I I ___I________
I I I I
Roger 'III' de Berkeley Agatha Walter Robert
fl. ca 1100/1110 - ca 1170 b say 1130x1140 Chamberlain
I = Humphrey 'de d aft 1186
I Berkeley' = Eve of Galloway

____I_________ ________I___ I