Is SENESCHAL a name?
Louise Staley
In looking for this person I have also come across an Elizabeth Seneschal who married Ralph Arundel. Elizabeth is also given as a daughter of John Seneschal although I have no sources for this.
My question relates to John Seneschal. Dr Faris quotes C.P. 1:244 footnote (b) and C.P. 10:236 footnote (a) and Roskell (1992) 2:506-507 neither of which I have access to so I can't provide C.P's sources. Is it possible that John was a seneschal rather than his surname being Seneschal? He lived in the late 13th and early 14th centuries and seneschal as an occupation or title was still in use in that period.
any help gratefully appreciated,
Louise
Chris Phillips
> In Plantagenet Ancestry by David Faris 2nd ed, p74 number 8, there is a
Margaret Seneschal who married Richard Cergeaux. Margaret was the daughter
and heiress of John Seneschal. John Seneschal, Knt. was of Predarwolas,
Cornwall.
>
> In looking for this person I have also come across an Elizabeth Seneschal
who married Ralph Arundel. Elizabeth is also given as a daughter of John
Seneschal although I have no sources for this.
>
> My question relates to John Seneschal. Dr Faris quotes C.P. 1:244 footnote
(b) and C.P. 10:236 footnote (a) and Roskell (1992) 2:506-507 neither of
which I have access to so I can't provide C.P's sources.
I can't see any reference to "Seneschal" in either of the CP footnotes.
Vol.1, p.244, note (b) gives the children of Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of
Arundel (d.1375/6), and says the second was [but see below!] "Philippe, who
m. Sir Richard Sergeaux (d. 30 Sep. 1393), whose da. Alice m., 1stly, Guy
St. Aubyn, and 2ndly, about 1405, Richard (de Vere), Earl of Oxford, who d.
1417."
Vol.10, p.236, note (a) relates to the marriage of Richard de Vere to this
Alice, which is dated to 1406 or 1407 [with supporting evidence]. In the
text, Alice is called the sister and coheir of Richard Sergeaux, and 3rd da.
of Sir Richard Sergeaux, by Philippe, da. and coh. of Sir _Edmund_ de
Arundel. The footnote cites the following authorities:
"Ch. Inq. p.m. 17 Ric. II, no 53; 21 Ric II, no 50; 1 Hen IV, nos 14, 77;
Cal. Close Rolls, 1396-99, pp.72, 84; Cat. Anc. Deeds, C 2372; Maclean,
History of Trigg Minor, vol.ii, pp.477, 503-4, 507. For other works giving
information about the family of Sergeaux, see N and Q, vol.cxlviii, p.302.
Sir Edmund de Arundel was eldest (bastardised) so of Richard, XIVth Earl of
Arundel", and the note refers to vol.1 (above), which was in error, as was
Maclean.
Chris Phillips
Colin Bevan
There is an IPM for John Seneschal 2 Edw II (1308) with lands in Cornwall -
Brennanek hamlet' extent'
Helleston maner'
Rosneithen hamlet'
Poldun hamlet'
Penhal nundine
Trewithgy maner' sect' cur
Predarwolas looks rather strange and I haven't found a reference to it in
the IPM index. I am wondering whether it is a transcription mistake. The
nearest I can get is Treleghwoles in Cornwall which was held in chief by
Henry Beauchamp, Duke of Warwick 24 Hen VI (1446).
Cheers
Rosie
Ivor West
----- Original Message -----
From: Rosie (Colin Bevan):
| Predarwolas looks rather strange and I haven't found a reference to
| it in the IPM index. I am wondering whether it is a transcription
| mistake. The nearest I can get is Treleghwoles in Cornwall which
| was held in chief by Henry Beauchamp, Duke of Warwick 24 Hen
| VI (1446).
No, Predarwolas is Predannack Wollas in Mullion, Cornwall, on the west
coast of the Lizard peninsula. Most of the le Seneschal holdings were
down that way. One of their principal seats was Trenethick in
Wendron, just north of Helston, which will be the Helleston maner'
referred to in the IPM. Another of their seats was Mudgeon, in
St.Martin-in-Meneage, towards the Helford River.
Trewithgy was Trenoweth-with-Trewithgy in Probus, the seat of John le
Seneschal's feudal superior, Stephen de Bello Prato. Stephen also died
in 1308 and Stephen's widow, Isabella, was a party in the wardship
dispute of John le Seneschal's three daughters. Isabella claimed the
wardship by virtue of John having held various lands of Stephen by
military service.
The third party to the suit, the Bishop of Exeter, claimed the
wardship on the grounds that John, and his antecessors, had held the
manor of Mudgeon from the bishop and his predecessors by military
service and by ancient feoffment. The court held that the wardship
belonged to the bishop because of the ancient feoffment.
Ivor West
Ivor West
Seneschal and the name is probably a metonym derived from an ancestral
seneschal.
John le Seneschal, 1278 - 1321, of Predannack Wollas in Mullion,
Cornwall, married Joan de Kernick, d1320, and had three coheirs,
Margaret, Elizabeth and Joan, (vid. Bish.Stapledon's Reg.,4, for a
dispute in 1324 regarding their wardship: "Johanna, que fuit uxor
Johannis le Seneschal [defuncti] summonita fuit ad respondendum
Waltero, Episcopo Exoniensis, de Placito quod reddat ei Margaretam,
Elizabetham et Johannam, filias et heredes Johannis le Seneschal...").
In the wardship dispute, her mother claimed that Margaret had married
during the lifetime of her father, John le Seneschal ("Et quoad
predictam Margaretam, filiam et unam heredum predicti Johannis, [Joan]
dicit quod ipsa Margareta non est in Custodia sua, eo quod ipsa
maritata fuit vivente predicto Johanne, patre suo..."). As such a
claim had to be made, it perhaps suggests a young marriage. MacLean
has Margaret's first marriage (c1312?) to James Peverell, who died in
1313, and her second (c1315/ 1320?) to Richard Sergeaux (Cergeaux,
Cirieaux). Elizabeth (if she is the same as the sister) m Ralph
Arundel of Caerhayes, Cornwall (Vivian: Arundel of Trerice), Joan [of
Trenethick in Hendron, m Hill?], (Lysons' Mag. Brit, III, cl).
John was the son of John le Seneschal, (1250) - 1308, (IPM 2Edw.II,
no.112). There was also an earlier John (born c1200? in service to
Emma de Cardinham in 1234, CFF ) and a Richard le Seneschal.
Joan, John's widow in the wardship dispute, was Joan de Kernick,
daughter of Oger de Kernick, d1292, of Treneage in Brannel, Cornwall,
and his wife, Constance de Bloigho, who was the daughter of Alan de
Bloigho and Matilda de Hewis. (It has been said that Bloigho was the
Cornishman's phonetic attempt at Blois. It probably sounded something
like Blue You or Blow You.)
A Richard le Seneschal ( brother of John born 1278 ?), rector of
Whitstone in 1310, was presented by Oliver de Carmino. An Alice le
Seneschal was married to John Petit (b1335?). Vivian has this last
under Tresahar. Both he and Boase have Michael le Seneschal as a son
of Margaret.
Ivor West
Louise Staley wrote...
Colin Bevan
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: Is SENESCHAL a name?
>
Louise Staley
Thank-you again for this.
I have a query about the death datesof John Seneschal and Joan de Kenick. In your earlier post you suggested that John died in 1308 leading to the wardship dispute
"Trewithgy was Trenoweth-with-Trewithgy in Probus, the seat of John le
Seneschal's feudal superior, Stephen de Bello Prato. Stephen also died
in 1308 and Stephen's widow, Isabella, was a party in the wardship
dispute of John le Seneschal's three daughters. Isabella claimed the
wardship by virtue of John having held various lands of Stephen by
military service."
In the post below John dies in 1321 and Joan in 1320 however Joan was then quoted as being involved in the wardship dispute in 1324. Both the John dying 1308 and the one dying 1321 had three daughters. Have I completely confused the generations?
Louise
"Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com> wrote in message news:utst6.41160$HR6.4...@nnrp4.clara.net...
Ivor West
From: Louise Staley
| I have a query about the death dates of John Seneschal and Joan de
| Kenick....
Good point.
The difficulty seems to be with Joan's date of death. Joan and John's
dates of death come from Thomas de Chiverton's Book of Obits (Pole MS
PG/ B2/ 9, f.129v, Antony House muniments), which gives 4 May 1320 for
Joan and 9 September 1321 for John. Evidently, if John was dead when
Joan was summoned to court, one of the dates must be wrong. And if the
date of the wardship action was more or less contemporaneous with the
verdict, 21 March 1324-5, then Joan had to be alive in 1324. So, on
the face of it, it seems to be Joan's date which is wrong.
Thomas de Chiverton's Book of Obits was a copy made, c1599, of a lost
14th century MS of obituaries of medieval Cornish families (I believe
half of the 1599 copy is in the British Library and the other half is
in Cornwall Record Office). The West Country antiquarian, Pole, made
his own copy of the 1599 copy and his copy is what is kept with the
Antony House muniments. With that amount of copying there would seem
to be plenty of scope for transcription errors -- misreading one tick
on one figure could transform Joan's 1320 into 1326, 1329 or 1330,
etc., but, short of any harder evidence surfacing, we seem stuck with
leaving it open or (d.>1324?).
|May I quote parts of your post in my sources?
If you are happy with the conflicts in the foregoing!
If you want to use the bit about Blois > Bloigho, perhaps it might be
better to derive it from the French for an inhabitant of Blois, that
is, the equivalent of a present-day blésois or blaisois. Something
like OF bloisois (?) > Bloigho would look slightly more convincing.
Incidentally, le Seneschal is marginal to my main interest here which
is de Bello Prato (de Beaupré). Stephen de Beaupré's father, John de
Beaupré, (1230 - 1290), was an actual seneschal ( to Richard, Earl of
Cornwall ) and a Sheriff of Cornwall. If anybody has anything on his
ancestry, I would be pleased to hear of it.
Ivor West
Louise Staley
research interests.
And thank-you for the Blois > Bloigho derivation. In my inexperience
I would have gone on a wild goose chase through the soc.gen.med
archives looking for possible links to Stephen, King of England. : )
Louise
"Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com> wrote in message news:00cd01c0b234$9b8c98a0$bb917ed4@default...
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