FITZRICHARDS
Wanda Thacker
I am researching, De Vernon, De Redvers etc and the 2 Richard
FitzGilberts. Every time I find a new resource of information, it
disagrees with the last one. The main question I have is whether or not
Richard FitzGilbert was the son of Richard II's son Godfrey or his
grandson Gilbert. The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
this way:
RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD
SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
RICHARD I
RICHARD II
GODFREY
GILBERT
RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE
MY
TENDENCY IS TO GO WITH THE HULL INFORMATION. BUT I FOUND OUT YOU CAN
LOOK UP OLD BOOKS ON GOOGLE AND FOUND SEVERAL OLD ONES THAT SAY THAT
BASICALLLY THERE WERE 2 RICHARD FITZRICHARDS. ONE THAT BELONGED TO
RICHARD I AND ONE WHO WAS THE SON OF RICHARD II.
IT'S
A REAL PROBLEM FOR ME. MY HUSBANDS FAMILY GOES BACK THROUGH THE
COURTENAYS TO THIS LINE AND THROUGH THE DE VERNONS TO THIS LINE AND I
HAVE ONE FROM SIBYL MARSHALL TO THIS LINE. RATHER THAN HAVE 3 LINES ALL
SCREWED UP, I WOULD PREFER TO HAVE A DEFINITIVE SOURCE ON THE SONS AND
GRANDSONS OF BOTH RICHARD I AND RICHARD II, SO I HAVE A HALFWAY CHANCE
OF NOT GETTING LOST IN THE RICHARDS AND BALDWINS.
WANDA THACKER
Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933
Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995
Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885
My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politicallyincorrectrants
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Forget the Hull database, it is unreliable and is not maintained by its
original compiler. Further its purpose is not for genealogy but for
some study of the use of databases.
Try instead Leo van de Pas' excellent site:
Leo regularly updates it to keep abreast of the latest discoveries.
Or see if you can get a look at Complete Peerage from any good library
(if the library does not have it, it is no good).
PS: The use of capitals on the internet is known as shouting; do you
really wish to shout?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Peter Stewart
"Wanda Thacker" <wand...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.558.11746865...@rootsweb.com...
> WOOPSIE I POSTED WRONG THE FIRST TIME
>
> I am researching, De Vernon, De Redvers etc and the 2 Richard
> FitzGilberts. Every time I find a new resource of information, it
> disagrees with the last one. The main question I have is whether or not
> Richard FitzGilbert was the son of Richard II's son Godfrey or his
> grandson Gilbert. The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
> this way:
>
>
> RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
> GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
> GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD
>
> SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
> RICHARD I
> RICHARD II
> GODFREY
> GILBERT
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE
Your "several other sources" are wrong and in this instance the Hull
database is right.
Dudo tells us that Richard I fathered two sons and two daughters from
concubines after the death of his first wife, the Frankish princess Emma,
one of whom was Godfrey of Brionne. Whether or not he was actually born
after Emma's death or before is questionable (although he was certainly not
her son), but anyway he cannot have been a son of Richard II: Godfrey was
dead in or before 1015, having fathered two sons of his own ca 1000, whereas
Richard II was not born until ca 980.
Peter Stewart
Wanda Thacker
Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933
Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995
Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885
My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politicallyincorrectrants
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 6:36:54 PM
Subject: Re: FITZRICHARDS
In message of 23 Mar, Wanda Thacker <wand...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> WOOPSIE I POSTED WRONG THE FIRST TIME
>
> I am researching, De Vernon, De Redvers etc and the 2 Richard
> FitzGilberts. Every time I find a new resource of information, it
> disagrees with the last one. The main question I have is whether or not
> Richard FitzGilbert was the son of Richard II's son Godfrey or his
> grandson Gilbert. The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
> this way:
>
>
> RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
> GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
> GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD
>
> SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
> RICHARD I
> RICHARD II
> GODFREY
> GILBERT
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE
>
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Wanda Thacker
Wanda Thacker
Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933
Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel as free to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995
Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885
----- Original Message ----
From: Peter Stewart <p_m_s...@msn.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:08:39 PM
Subject: Re: FITZRICHARDS
"Wanda Thacker" <wand...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.558.11746865...@rootsweb.com...
> WOOPSIE I POSTED WRONG THE FIRST TIME
>
> I am researching, De Vernon, De Redvers etc and the 2 Richard
> FitzGilberts. Every time I find a new resource of information, it
> disagrees with the last one. The main question I have is whether or not
> Richard FitzGilbert was the son of Richard II's son Godfrey or his
> grandson Gilbert. The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
> this way:
>
>
> RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
> GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
> GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD
>
> SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
> RICHARD I
> RICHARD II
> GODFREY
> GILBERT
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE
Your "several other sources" are wrong and in this instance the Hull
database is right.
Dudo tells us that Richard I fathered two sons and two daughters from
concubines after the death of his first wife, the Frankish princess Emma,
one of whom was Godfrey of Brionne. Whether or not he was actually born
after Emma's death or before is questionable (although he was certainly not
her son), but anyway he cannot have been a son of Richard II: Godfrey was
dead in or before 1015, having fathered two sons of his own ca 1000, whereas
Richard II was not born until ca 980.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> O.K., Now that we have established that Godfrey was
> Richard I's son, do you think that the Richard FitzGilbert
> who founded the Earls of Devon is the same or different
> than the one who founded the De Clare line?
You are confusing people and names.
Godfrey of Brionne's son Count Gilbert had two sons: Richard fitz Gilbert
whose descendants were the Clare family (later earls of Gloucester and
Hertford), and Baldwin fitz Gilbert whose son Richard was sheriff of Devon.
But this Richard (died 136) had no known offspring, and the later earls of
Devon of the Redvers family were descended from another Richard (de Reviers,
not fitz Gilbert) of unknown parentage.
Peter Stewart
Doug McDonald
>
>>
>> RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
>> GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
>> GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
>> RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD
>>
>
>
> database is right.
>
> Dudo tells us that Richard I fathered two sons and two daughters from
> concubines after the death of his first wife, the Frankish princess Emma,
> one of whom was Godfrey of Brionne.
If he really was, why does Leo have him as "Geoffroy" rather
than Godfrey? (I note that Leo's only references is ES).
CP has Godfrey. Does anybody know what it actually was,
in Latin or Norman French? The two names above are not versions
of the same name. "Godfrey" has Germanic sounding roots, not Latin.
Doug McDonald
CE Wood
GEFFREY m English (Modern)
GEOFFREY m English
GEOFFROY m English/French
GEOFFROI m French
GJORD m Swedish
GJURD m Norwegian
GODFREY m English
GODFRIED m Dutch
GODOFREDO m Spanish, Portuguese
GOFFREDO m Italian
GOFRAIDH m Irish
GORAIDH m Scottish
GOTTFRID m Swedish
GOTTFRIED m German
JEFF m English
JEFFERSON m English
JEFFERY m English
JEFFREY m English
JEFFRY m English
JEP m English
JEPSON m English
SÉAFRA m Irish
SIEFFRE m Welsh
SIOTHRÚN m Irish
CE Wood
Peter Stewart
"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:eu3c3i$osq$1...@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
Godfrey and Geoffrey are both Germanic in origin and come from the same
root, Gaut/Gauz/God/Goz+ frid.
Godfrey was so named by Dudo in the passage I mentioned - [Ricardus] genuit
duos filios, totidem et filias, ex concubinis: quorum unus Godefridus. He
was also called by this name in a charter attested by his son - S.
Gildeberti filii Godefridi comitis - and a few in which he probably occurs,
although these are only known from copies.
Later sources call him both Godfrey and Geoffrey. This is not unusual and
Normans especially did not distinguish between these forms - for instance,
in Italy Godfrey/Geoffrey, count of Ragusa and Geoffrey/Godfrey, count of
Conversano.
Peter Stewart
Doug McDonald
>
> Godfrey and Geoffrey are both Germanic in origin and come from the same
> root, Gaut/Gauz/God/Goz+ frid.
>
> Godfrey was so named by Dudo in the passage I mentioned - [Ricardus] genuit
> duos filios, totidem et filias, ex concubinis: quorum unus Godefridus. He
> was also called by this name in a charter attested by his son - S.
> Gildeberti filii Godefridi comitis - and a few in which he probably occurs,
> although these are only known from copies.
>
> Later sources call him both Godfrey and Geoffrey. This is not unusual and
> Normans especially did not distinguish between these forms - for instance,
> in Italy Godfrey/Geoffrey, count of Ragusa and Geoffrey/Godfrey, count of
> Conversano.
>
Thanks for the interesting reply. So like so many names, they
only diverged later.
Doug McDonald
Robert Forrest
which derived the origin of the Giffards from this same family. Davis said
Vivian's pedigree shows another son for Geoffrey of Brionne (who he says d.
c1000):
"This Geoffrey had a son Gilbert of Brione, lord of Bec, count
d'Eu, and captain of Tellieres, ob. 1034.
"This Gilbert, and Gunora, daughter of Fulk Alan, had four sons,
including Richard FitzGilbert, earl of Brione and Clare, and
Gilbert, lord of Tellieres.
"This Richard, and the previously mentioned Rohais who had
St.Neot in dower, had a daughter Rohais.
"The previously mentioned Gilbert, lord of Tellieres, had a son
Ralph de Tellieres.
"This Ralph, and the most recently mentioned Rohais, had a son
Robert de Tellieres, who assumed the name of Giffard.
"This Robert had a son and heir Gervaise Giffard...", etc.
Is there any basis for this in reality?
Robert Forrest
Peter Stewart
"Robert Forrest" <for...@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.632.11748431...@rootsweb.com...
> Paul Davis, in a September 2001 post to SGM,cited Vivian's Vis. of Devon
> which derived the origin of the Giffards from this same family. Davis said
> Vivian's pedigree shows another son for Geoffrey of Brionne (who he says
> d. c1000):
>
> "This Geoffrey had a son Gilbert of Brione, lord of Bec, count
> d'Eu, and captain of Tellieres, ob. 1034.
Two different men are conflated here: Duke Richard I's illegitimate son
Godfrey/Geoffrey had two sons, Gilbert and Robert. Gilbert was count of
Brionne, and was murdered soon after taking the place of Alan III of
Brittany as a guardian of the young Duke William (later the Conqueror). This
followed the murder of Alan on 1 October 1040, so the date 1034 is clearly
wrong as is the identification with Tillières (see below). Robert had a
daughter, name unknown, who married Baudry the German. The wives of both
Gilbert and Robert are unknown.
> "This Gilbert, and Gunora, daughter of Fulk Alan, had four sons,
> including Richard FitzGilbert, earl of Brione and Clare, and
> Gilbert, lord of Tellieres.
Wrong - Gilbert Crespin, castellan of Tillières, was a younger contemporary
but not the same as Gilbert fitz Godfrey, count of Brionne. Gilbert Crespin
married Gunnora who was a daughter of Foulques of Aunou by a daughter of
Baudry the German and the daughter of Robert above, consequently this
Gunnora was a great-niece of Gilbert fitz Godfrey of Brionne.
> "This Richard, and the previously mentioned Rohais who had
> St.Neot in dower, had a daughter Rohais.
Richard fitz Gilbert (of Brionne) married Rohais, daughter of Walter
Giffard, and they were ancestors of the Clare family as mentioned before.
They were probably the parents of another Rohais, but she married Eudo of
Ryes, seneschal of Normandy.
> "The previously mentioned Gilbert, lord of Tellieres, had a son
> Ralph de Tellieres.
I don't know anything about this alleged son Ralph. The recorded sons of
Gilbert I of Tillières were Gilbert II of Tillières, William, viscount of
the Vexin, and Robert who was poisoned in Constantinople. There may have
been another son, Milo, who fought at Hastings, but this relationship is not
definite.
> "This Ralph, and the most recently mentioned Rohais, had a son
> Robert de Tellieres, who assumed the name of Giffard.
As above, I don't know about this Ralph and the Rohais ascribed as his wife
seems highly dubious as well.
> "This Robert had a son and heir Gervaise Giffard...", etc.
>
> Is there any basis for this in reality?
Someone else can no doubt tell us about the ancestry of the later Giffards,
I don't have any useful recollection or time to look this up at present.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bGCNh.1676$M.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Gilbert Crespin married Gunnora who was a daughter of Foulques of
> Aunou by a daughter of Baudry the German and the daughter of Robert
> above, consequently this Gunnora was a great-niece of Gilbert fitz
> Godfrey of Brionne.
My apologies, I have added to the confusion here with a non-existent
generation. The above should read:
Gilbert Crespin married Gunnora who was a sister of Foulques of Aunou as
daughter of Baudry the German and the daughter of Robert above, consequently
this Gunnora was a great-niece of Gilbert fitz Godfrey of Brionne.
Peter Stewart
Robert Forrest
suggest a good reference for the descendants of Richard "The Fearless", Duke
of Normandy? Perhaps Schwennicke's "Europäische Stammtafeln"?
Robert Forrest
Peter Stewart
> Peter--Thanks for both your detailed replies. Much appreciated. Can you
> suggest a good reference for the descendants of Richard "The Fearless",
> Duke of Normandy? Perhaps Schwennicke's "Europäische Stammtafeln"?
I would not recommend ES - apart from any errors that may be included in
tables, there is no commentary to provide direct references for details or
explanation of conjectures.
There is a large literature on this subject, much of it easier to find &
follow than ES. A much better starting point for the ducal family is Eleanor
Searle's _Predatory Kinship and the Creation of Norman Power, 840-1066_
(Berkeley & Los Angeles, 1988).
Peter Stewart
Don Stone
> "Robert Forrest" <for...@whidbey.com> wrote:
>> Paul Davis, in a September 2001 post to SGM,cited Vivian's Vis. of Devon
>> which derived the origin of the Giffards from this same family. Davis said
>> Vivian's pedigree shows another son for Geoffrey of Brionne (who he says
>> d. c1000):
>>
>> "This Geoffrey had a son Gilbert of Brione, lord of Bec, count
>> d'Eu, and captain of Tellieres, ob. 1034.
>
> Two different men are conflated here: Duke Richard I's illegitimate son
> Godfrey/Geoffrey had two sons, Gilbert and Robert. Gilbert was count of
> Brionne, and was murdered soon after taking the place of Alan III of
> Brittany as a guardian of the young Duke William (later the Conqueror). This
> followed the murder of Alan on 1 October 1040, so the date 1034 is clearly
> wrong as is the identification with Tillières (see below). Robert had a
> daughter, name unknown, who married Baudry the German. The wives of both
> Gilbert and Robert are unknown.
>
>> "This Gilbert, and Gunora, daughter of Fulk Alan, had four sons,
>> including Richard FitzGilbert, earl of Brione and Clare, and
>> Gilbert, lord of Tellieres.
>
> Wrong - Gilbert Crespin, castellan of Tillières, was a younger contemporary
> but not the same as Gilbert fitz Godfrey, count of Brionne.
> this Gunnora was a great-niece of Gilbert fitz Godfrey of Brionne.
Peter,
If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that the Clares descended
from Richard fitz Gilbert (among whom were various earls of Gloucester
and Hertford) do not have a male-line descent from Duke Richard I.
However, on 3/23/2007, Wanda Thacker said:
> The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
> this way:
>
> RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
> GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
> GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD
>
> SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
> RICHARD I
> RICHARD II
> GODFREY
> GILBERT
> RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE
and you responded:
> Your "several other sources" are wrong and in this instance the Hull
> database is right.
Similarly, on 3/24/2007, you said:
> Godfrey of Brionne's son Count Gilbert had two sons: Richard fitz Gilbert
> whose descendants were the Clare family (later earls of Gloucester and
> Hertford), and Baldwin fitz Gilbert whose son Richard was sheriff of Devon.
This is in agreement with _The Aristocracy of Norman England_ by Judith
A. Green (1997), which states (p. 343) that Richard fitz Gilbert and
Baldwin the sheriff were both sons of Count Gilbert of Brionne.
So, does the traditional pedigree as given at Hull (and in Leo's
Genealogics) conflate two different Gilberts or not? Thanks for any
insight you can supply.
[The reason for my interest is that a fellow whose Y-chromosome DNA
closely matches mine is trying to make the case that he and I and
various other close matches are all of Norman descent patrilineally and,
more specifically, are descendants of Duke Richard I. (I have told him
I am quite skeptical of this and think that Stone is more likely
Anglo-Saxon.) His proposed pedigree follows the traditional route,
Richard I, Godfrey/Geoffrey of Brionne, Gilbert of Brionne (d. 1040),
and then continues through the latter's son Baldwin "the Sheriff."]
-- Don Stone
Peter Stewart
"Don Stone" <don....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:S5GPh.2692$%G4.1016@trndny05...
I think this thread has become more than muddled enough already, and from
Don's first question I must be reading my own comments differently from
others, so that it may be better to start again without interspersing
comments.
My intention was to separate two different Gilberts, shown below in capitals
within their respective male lineages:
First, stemming from the Norman ducal family -
1. Richard I, duke of Normandy (by unknown concubine)
|
2. Godfrey, count of Eu & Brionne
|
3(a). GILBERT, count of Brionne
3(b). Robert, probably father of a daughter, recorded as GILBERT's niece,
who married Baudry the German
|
sons of Gilbert #3(a):
4(a). Richard fitz Gilbert, lord of Clare, agnatic ancestor of the earls of
Hertford from his marriage to Rohese Giffard
4(b). Baldwin fitz Gilbert, lord of Okehampton & sheriff of Devon, whose
male descent ended with his sons including two other sheriffs of Devon.
Second, agnatically unrelated to the first as far as we know -
1. GILBERT I Crispin, castellan of Tillières, parentage unknown, married
Gunnora (daughter of Baudry the German by the niece of GILBERT of Brionne
above)
|
2(a). Gilbert II, castellan of Tillières, left agnatic descendants down to
Gilbert VI of Tillières whose inheritance passed through daughters to other
families
2(b). William I, seigneur of Le Bec & viscount of the Vexin, also left
agnatic descendants
2(c). Robert ,who was poisoned in Constantinople, apparently unmarried
and possibly
2(d). Milo, who fought at Hastings, with no recorded offspring.
The original post had conflated Gilbert #3(a) from the first line with
Gilbert #1 from the second (as well as confusing the sheriffs of Devon in
the Clare line above with the earls of Devon in the Redvers family).
The only known link between these two Gilberts, one a count of Brionne and
the other a castellan of Tillières, was the latter's wife, daughter of
Baudry the German (who was father also of Foulques of Aunou and Nicholas of
Bacqueville).
Peter Stewart
Don Stone
> I think this thread has become more than muddled enough already, and from
> Don's first question I must be reading my own comments differently from
> others, so that it may be better to start again without interspersing
> comments.
Thank you, Peter. I now get the picture; the information below is clear.
-- Don
Peter Stewart
To make this second paragraph clearer, for the record, it should read:
"But this Richard (fitz Baldwin, i.e. son of Baldwin fitz Gilbert), lord of
Okehamptom & sheriff of Devon (died 1136) had no known offspring...."
Peter Stewart
William Marshall
Peter Stewart wrote:
>
> First, stemming from the Norman ducal family -
> 1. Richard I, duke of Normandy (by unknown concubine)
> |
> 2. Godfrey, count of Eu & Brionne
> |
> 3(a). GILBERT, count of Brionne
> 3(b). Robert, probably father of a daughter, recorded as GILBERT's niece,
> who married Baudry the German
> |
> sons of Gilbert #3(a):
> 4(a). Richard fitz Gilbert, lord of Clare, agnatic ancestor of the earls of
> Hertford from his marriage to Rohese Giffard
> 4(b). Baldwin fitz Gilbert, lord of Okehampton & sheriff of Devon, whose
> male descent ended with his sons including two other sheriffs of Devon.
>
> Second, agnatically unrelated to the first as far as we know -
> above)
CP IV p308, refers to Baldwin fitz Gilbert as "son of Gilbert, called
Crispin, Count of Brionne in Normandy..."
Were they both called Crispin, or is this an error in CP?
And, is Baudry the German (who had a son Foulques of Anjou) somehow
related to the Counts of Anjou also named Foulques?
Bill Marshall
w...@research.att.com
taf
> And, is Baudry the German (who had a son Foulques of Anjou) somehow
> related to the Counts of Anjou also named Foulques?
Not Anjou, it is Fulk de Aunou. (. . . also not to be confused with
Fulk de Alnou, a contemporary of this Fulk, who was son of Osmund de
Conteville, and grand-nephew of Gunnora).
taf
Robert forrest
"...As I have mentioned elsewhere, based on the fact that Fulk d'Aunou had a
sister Gunnor, Keats-Rohan has suggested that these two somehow got switched,
and that it was Baldric who married the Gunnorid, while Nicholas [de
Bacqueville] married Gilbert's niece. This works better chronologically,
since Gilbert de Brionne was two generations after Gunnor, his niece three and
Nicholas four, while the wife of Nicholas would be just one, or perhaps two
generation removed from Gunnor. Reversing them as
Keats-Rohan suggests makes the wife four, and the husband three or four
(because some of the nieces appear to have been grandnieces)."
Comments, anyone?
Robert Forrest
Peter Stewart
"William Marshall" <w...@research.att.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.307.11755518...@rootsweb.com...
>
> Peter Stewart wrote:
>>
>> First, stemming from the Norman ducal family -
>> 1. Richard I, duke of Normandy (by unknown concubine)
>> |
>> 2. Godfrey, count of Eu & Brionne
>> |
>> 3(a). GILBERT, count of Brionne
>> 3(b). Robert, probably father of a daughter, recorded as GILBERT's niece,
>> who married Baudry the German
>> |
>> sons of Gilbert #3(a):
>> 4(a). Richard fitz Gilbert, lord of Clare, agnatic ancestor of the earls
>> of
>> Hertford from his marriage to Rohese Giffard
>> 4(b). Baldwin fitz Gilbert, lord of Okehampton & sheriff of Devon, whose
>> male descent ended with his sons including two other sheriffs of Devon.
>>
>> Second, agnatically unrelated to the first as far as we know -
>> Gunnora (daughter of Baudry the German by the niece of GILBERT of Brionne
>> above)
>
> CP IV p308, refers to Baldwin fitz Gilbert as "son of Gilbert, called
> Crispin, Count of Brionne in Normandy..."
>
> Were they both called Crispin, or is this an error in CP?
He is not called "Crispin" in the very few contemporary occurrences, and he
was not given any byname in Père Anselme - I can't guess what authority or
prior statement the CP writer was relying on. It could have been just some
old confusion.
Of course, "said to be" or "called" without reference are a kind of claim
that can't readily be proved in error, and too many genealogists have
exploited these uninformative & irritating locutions to project themselves
as knowing their subject inside out. If such hearsay is known, from a record
or from scholarly chatter, and the gist is worth reporting at all, it is
surely worth citing or at least identifying the source properly.
Peter Stewart